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Men Not Taking Orders From Women  
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14139 posts, RR: 63
Posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3034 times:

Yesterday I was standing at one of our parking position when a plane taxied in for a night stop. When the forward entry door was opened I noticed the female No.1 was having a serious argument with two male pasengers, in fact it looked as if one of the passengers was about to hit the woman. I shouted to the captain, who had his sliding window open that there was trouble in the cabin and ran up the stairs, my rechargable Mag Lite in my hand, seriously thinking that I would have to wack the guy who made IMO threatening movements towards the two female F/A's in the front galley. With the captain appearing (the stripes give him a certain authority) and me standing ready in the L1 door with the Mag Lite, it seemed to cool down the guys.
It transpired soon that the two guys, both in their 20s, both from Jordan, both sitting in the front row, got up while the plane was still taxying (this was confirmed by a pilot from another airline, who was deadheading with the plane), and became agressive when the Hungarian No.1 told them to sit down.
They still wanted to leave the plane, but the F/O had in meantime radioed for police, so I blocked the way to prevent the two guys from leaving the plane until the police arrived.
While we were waiting for the police the guys gave their version of the story (which, knowing the F/A in question quite well, didn't believe, especially since the deadheading pilot confirmed the F/A's version), in a way that us guys should understand that no real man takes orders from a woman.
Afew minutes later four cops appeared and took the men with them, the crew went to the crew room to write a report, while I stayed with the plane to do my night stop check.

I understand that on our flights to and from Morocco, female cabin crew often have problems with men from this region refusing to obey orders or instructions given to them by women. On the other hand, flights with hetero or, at least, not queenish gay male cabin crew (we have a few who are working out and look as if they could hold their own in a fist fight), usually do not have this problem.
BTW the female No.1 in question, even though she is in her mid-twenties, has many years of experience and is a cabin crew trainer.

Jan

39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLobster From Germany, joined Oct 2008, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2930 times:

I'd comment on my real opinion, but I'm not opening up THAT can of worms.


Either way, it's a disgusting attitude and shameful. Surprised the deadheading pilot didn't step it up alittle.


User currently offlineSpringbok747 From Australia, joined Nov 2004, 4387 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2921 times:



Quoting MD11Engineer (Thread starter):
BTW the female No.1 in question, even though she is in her mid-twenties

Do you have her phone number? What about her flight number? I wanted to track her flight.

Signed,
FLAIRPORT




Seriously though, what a bunch of f*cking losers. With attitude like that they should stay put in their region and not travel anywhere.



אני תומך בישראל
User currently offlineAllstarflyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2900 times:



Quoting MD11Engineer (Thread starter):
While we were waiting for the police the guys gave their version of the story (which, knowing the F/A in question quite well, didn't believe, especially since the deadheading pilot confirmed the F/A's version), in a way that us guys should understand that no real man takes orders from a woman.

At first, I thought this would be about some guys who can't wear the pants in their families.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 2):
Seriously though, what a bunch of f*cking losers. With attitude like that they should stay put in their region and not travel anywhere.

 checkmark 


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14139 posts, RR: 63
Reply 4, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2865 times:



Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 3):
At first, I thought this would be about some guys who can't wear the pants in their families.

Just to make it clear:
I'm not speaking of men being henpecked or p*ssy whipped, but about men having to obey common sense, safety related orders by a woman having an official position of authority.

Jan


User currently offlineStratosphere From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1653 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2855 times:

I think these people who have these problems (and we know where they are from) need to stay the hell home. If you cannot abide by society in another land and cannot respect females in responsible positions you need to stay the hell away and crawl back in the hole you crawled out of. The rest of us don't want you in our society. It still amazes me how backwards ass the middle east is. It is funny I am sure the Saudi's were not happy with our female servicemen during Desert Storm but they had to bite their tongue.


NWA THE TRUE EVIL EMPIRE
User currently offlineGreasespot From Canada, joined Apr 2004, 3086 posts, RR: 20
Reply 6, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2837 times:

Why do you single out the middle east....I have that problem with western guys when I am working....There is sometihng fragile about the male ego that does not like being told what to do.....and gets more fractured when it is a woman....but hey I Always WIN....They may not like it but they will do as I say.

Gs



Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14139 posts, RR: 63
Reply 7, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2822 times:



Quoting Greasespot (Reply 6):
Why do you single out the middle east....I have that problem with western guys when I am working....There is sometihng fragile about the male ego that does not like being told what to do.....and gets more fractured when it is a woman....but hey I Always WIN....They may not like it but they will do as I say.

Gs

Because I'm hearing this complaint from the cabin crew ever since we started with our Morrocco flights, before there were certain destinations in Eastern Europe, which were quite unpopular because of the attitude of mainly the male passengers (in this case often drunk and agressive), but not as many complaints as I hear from our cabin crew flying the Northern Africa routes, this agressive disobedience. It is clearly a cultural issue, especially the way they expected the captain, the cops and myself to show some male solidarity against the women (Wrong. Our solidarity went with our colleagues).
There exist problems with passengers from southern Italy as well, not doing as they are being told, but this is more of a cheerfull "rules are made to be broken" attitude from both male and female passengers.
In case of these two idiots, I managed to see the cover of their passports when the police officer told them to show some ID, that's how I knew that they were from Jordan.

Jan


User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7438 posts, RR: 50
Reply 8, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 2796 times:
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Back in early January, I was traveling on KLM from AMS-ABH-BAH, and from ABH-BAH, embarked a man with 3 women. One of the women was using a mobile phone and didn't switch it off. One of the male F/A's saw this woman on the cell phone and asked her to turn it off. She ignored him, not even looking at him, and continued talking. He asked her 5 more times, as well as 2 others, then asking the man this woman was travelling with. He didn't do nything either. The male crewmember went to get the purser a,d she came back and got her to turn it off. They were much nicer than I would've been. If she didn't turn it off after the 2nd time, I would've chucked her and the others travelling with her off the aircraft, even if she turned the phone off. I won't tolerate someone, not for a second, who ignores me when I have to enforce the regs. I have a serious patience problem with passengers who won't comply with crew instructions. They walk to their final destination for all I care.


Made from jets!
User currently offlineWILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9118 posts, RR: 76
Reply 9, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2764 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Thank god that I am 6'3" and 200lbs. Big grin I'd love to have this argument with this guy! He wouldnt stand a chance Big grin

No, seriously! Its sad to see how bad people actually can behave! Maybe its part of their religion not to take any orders from women, but they are not in their country anymore, they are on an airplane and they HAVE to follow the orders given by the crew, no matter if F/A or FO or CP! The crew is in charge!!
Thanks for your quick help you offered there and notifying the captain!  thumbsup 
And I hope this guy will be in Guantanamo now Big grin


WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineFiatstilojtd From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2744 times:



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 9):

No, seriously! Its sad to see how bad people actually can behave!

Hi Phil,

you should see/hear how some of the former yugoslavian, jordan etc. guys react when they hear that the PILOT is female.  Yeah sure I was once on an Aer Lingus flight where the Captain was female, but she said that the male F/O will be PF, the serbian guy in front of me said something like "Puuuhh thank god, a male is flying" in "relief"....wonder what he would have done on my last flight with EI on the 31st of December - all female crew  bigthumbsup 


User currently offlineWILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9118 posts, RR: 76
Reply 11, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2740 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR



Quoting Fiatstilojtd (Reply 10):
you should see/hear how some of the former yugoslavian, jordan etc. guys react when they hear that the PILOT is female. Yeah sure I was once on an Aer Lingus flight where the Captain was female, but she said that the male F/O will be PF, the serbian guy in front of me said something like "Puuuhh thank god, a male is flying" in "relief"....

Yeah, I had some kind of the same experience once.... Unbelievable...

Quoting Fiatstilojtd (Reply 10):
all female crew bigthumbsup

I had that once as well: I was the FO and all of the other crew were female!!! And we had a nice 4 day trip alltogether  cloudnine   rotfl 

Oh and btw: I didnt take any orders from the Captain Big grin Big grin

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineFiatstilojtd From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2738 times:



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 11):

Oh and btw: I didnt take any orders from the Captain Big grin Big grin

You are no Saftschubse after all.  Wink


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14139 posts, RR: 63
Reply 13, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2717 times:



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 9):
Thank god that I am 6'3" and 200lbs. Big grin I'd love to have this argument with this guy! He wouldnt stand a chance Big grin

Phil,

You met me a few years ago in CGN. I'm not a short @rse either at 6", and I think my working attire, which includes steel toed boots helped as well.  box   fight 

Jan


User currently offlineWILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9118 posts, RR: 76
Reply 14, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2715 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 13):
Phil,

You met me a few years ago in CGN. I'm not a short @rse either at 6", and I think my working attire, which includes steel toed boots helped as well. box fight

Jan

Yupp, I remember you. And I am sure with your rechargable mag light you would've kicked his ass Big grin Big grin

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineFiatstilojtd From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2714 times:



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 14):
Yupp, I remember you. And I am sure with your rechargable mag light you would've kicked his ass Big grin Big grin

Or have it "correct" between the fingers, broke the nose within seconds  Wink  Wink


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14139 posts, RR: 63
Reply 16, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2695 times:

Seriously, as soon as the two passengers realised that they were now facing two men, instead of two women in high heels (impractical, but the airline requires the female F/As to wear them during boarding and disembarking), they lost their will for a confrontation fast.

One thing they also didn't realise is that our station is a small place and the aviation people are a rather tight group in here, where we often meet off duty as well, no matter if we are working in the air or on ground (some of my colleagues have cabin crew girlfriends). If a passenger attacks one of our F/A's it becomes a personal matter fast.

Jan


User currently offlineMiamiair From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2694 times:



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 4):
Just to make it clear:

Your post was crystal clear. Good call and good back-up. How many others would have taken a seat and been spectators instead of active participants?

Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 11):
Oh and btw: I didnt take any orders from the Captain

That's what the crash axe is for... Big grin


User currently offlineJush From Germany, joined Apr 2005, 1636 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2693 times:

If they fly to different countries they have to respect the values and the cultures of the country they are flying to. If they cannot obey that. Please don't come and don't do business here. Disgusting what an attitude these 2 presented.
We try to adapt as well if we come to other countries, esp. China which has some strange habits from a European view. Nonetheless, we accept and adapt. So are they. But why can't our friends on the plane do that?

Regds
jush



There is one problem with airbus. Though their products are engineering marvels they lack passion, completely.
User currently offlineWILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9118 posts, RR: 76
Reply 19, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2683 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 17):
That's what the crash axe is for... Big grin

I never thought about this one, but good idea Big grin Big grin

But now on the MD11F I cannot reach it without getting up, HUGE cockpit Big grin

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14139 posts, RR: 63
Reply 20, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2682 times:



Quoting Jush (Reply 18):
If they fly to different countries they have to respect the values and the cultures of the country they are flying to. If they cannot obey that. Please don't come and don't do business here. Disgusting what an attitude these 2 presented.

I think that both are actually living in Germany. At least one of them spoke fluent German (the other one didn't say much).

Jan


User currently offlineQR332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2653 times:

These two men's behavior is disgusting, but it isn't a widespread issue in Jordan. Jordan has several female ministers in the government, female MPs, and female police officers are quite common as well. These two men are just bigots, and men like them exist everywhere in the world.

Quoting Stratosphere (Reply 5):
It still amazes me how backwards ass the middle east is. It is funny I am sure the Saudi's were not happy with our female servicemen during Desert Storm but they had to bite their tongue.

How the hell are two bigots representative of an entire region? Just because they have a backwards ass mentality doesn't mean everyone in the Middle East does. Domestic violence occurs quite commonly in the US, for example - does that mean every American man is out there to beat his wife/girlfriend/lover?

Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 9):
Maybe its part of their religion not to take any orders from women, but they are not in their country anymore, they are on an airplane and they HAVE to follow the orders given by the crew, no matter if F/A or FO or CP! The crew is in charge!!

What does this have to do with religion? What is up with people taking the actions of one or two individuals and then quickly assuming that they are acting this way JUST because they are Arab or Muslim? These attitudes are truly disgusting, and are almost as close minded as the attitudes the two men displayed to the F/A.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14139 posts, RR: 63
Reply 22, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2631 times:

QR332,

Those guys seemed to be streetwise, but not very educated, probably from a more traditional family. Years ago, when I was a university student, I once took a job to install electrical wiring and lamps in the shop of a Lebanese second hand furniture dealer in Berlin. The job took me several days (and he cheated me when he paid me, but this is another story). That guy was running his rather big shop with several guys from his home country, I assume illegals with no option to work anywhere else the way he treated them.
One interesting thing I noticed, how spoiled his son was. The way his teenage son was talking to his mother would have earned me a slap from my mother and an @rsewhopping from my father, if I had tried it at home. The teenage daughters on the other hand had to work hard and take care of the younger children. They carried much more responsibility at their age than German counterparts.

When I was living in this district (Neukoelln of Berlin, a working class distric with a high number of lowly educated immigrants), I often noticed boys, mostly from Turkish and Arab families, who were thoroughly spoiled, especially the first sons. They ordered their mothers and sisters around like little kings. Bad performance in school was tolerated, studying was something for sissies. When they turned 20, they suddenly realised that without a high school degree they would be nothing, a hard drop from being the spoiled prince of the family to unemployed labourer on welfare.
These young men would often react in exactly the manner the two guys on the plane showed, overly sensitive about everything the perceived as a slight of their "honour" and very agressive.

Jan


User currently offlineEvilForce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2609 times:



Quoting MD11Engineer (Thread starter):
On the other hand, flights with hetero or, at least, not queenish gay male cabin crew (we have a few who are working out and look as if they could hold their own in a fist fight), usually do not have this problem.

Thanks for the clarification on the sexual orientation of the flight crews that don't have issues.  Yeah sure It was so key to your story. Not.

This "view" of yours perfectly illustrates the fragile male ego from the west. I'm surprised you didn't add a " *cough* not that there's anything wrong with that" comment.  Yeah sure Can't you see this is just as backwards assed a view as the one you are mocking? These guys attitudes that many decry was not that uncommon in the west just a few years ago. Their attitude they showed this female is about the same attitude your father, or surely grandfather would have displayed in their workplace. "Girl Fridays", "Coffee Girls", and other ridiculous behavior men engaged in at the office place in the 50's, 60's and 70's.

Quoting Stratosphere (Reply 5):
I think these people who have these problems (and we know where they are from) need to stay the hell home. If you cannot abide by society in another land and cannot respect females in responsible positions you need to stay the hell away and crawl back in the hole you crawled out of. The rest of us don't want you in our society. It still amazes me how backwards ass the middle east is. It is funny I am sure the Saudi's were not happy with our female servicemen during Desert Storm but they had to bite their tongue.

By the same token then, all western people visiting the middle east should also not imbibe alcohol. They also shouldn't eat or even drink water during the fasting religious observations as the local populace does. There are plenty of "ugly Americans" that show their ass the world round. What makes these two clowns from the middle east any different? Would you want to be pre-judged based on others experiences with "ugly Americans"?

These two passengers were simply showing their ignorance. Just as a few of you are on this thread.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14139 posts, RR: 63
Reply 24, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2598 times:



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 23):
Thanks for the clarification on the sexual orientation of the flight crews that don't have issues. Yeah sure It was so key to your story. Not.

This "view" of yours perfectly illustrates the fragile male ego from the west. I'm surprised you didn't add a " *cough* not that there's anything wrong with that" comment. Yeah sure Can't you see this is just as backwards assed a view as the one you are mocking? These guys attitudes that many decry was not that uncommon in the west just a few years ago. Their attitude they showed this female is about the same attitude your father, or surely grandfather would have displayed in their workplace. "Girl Fridays", "Coffee Girls", and other ridiculous behavior men engaged in at the office place in the 50's, 60's and 70's.

Bullshit  redflag 
Listen, Mr. Political Correctness, you are clearly not working in the aviation industry. There are so many gay men working in our industry that you can't help knowing many of them personally. There exists a type of gay (and I know several of them personally), with very exagerated, effeminate behaviour, acting the ridiculous gay stereotype, which also has been critizsed by gay members of this forum many times. These guys will have a very hard time handling a situation with open aggression.
On the other hand I also know most of our gay F/A's (and at least one pilot) who don't make their sexual orientation a badge they wear for everybody to see and those guys COMMAND respect. Those who know them closer know that they are gay, but they are not ridiculous with it, it is just a part of their personality. Nobody will ever make fun of them.
It is like the difference between a real woman and a bimbo (or a real man and a super macho braggard).

Jan


25 EvilForce : Hate filled bigotry my dear backwards assed boy.
26 MD11Engineer : So you know me better than I know myself? You know whom I'm working and partying with? You know who my friends are? This is the problem with the mode
27 EvilForce : I must congratulate you on the wonderfully accepting point of view you have and your thread thus far. May I ask if we can expect a "Why Do Jews Act S
28 Post contains images OHLHD : This can't happen to you anymore that passenger gets mad at you but I would be be careful because the day were you open the cockpit door and you look
29 Columba : I had a similar situation when I was doing my lawyer traineeship at the District Attorney Office in Berlin. I was at court as a prosectutor and the ju
30 Post contains images EWRCabincrew : Same here (except 240 here), WILCO737. I'll tell you. They sure as hell can. Judge not. Men who don't take orders from women come in all shapes, size
31 MDorBust : Fixed that for you Greasepot. Stay safe out there.
32 Miamiair : Assholes like that should have their lives made difficult. Have her supervisor (preferably another woman) give the CS the load sheet.
33 Post contains images OHLHD : She reacted fantastic. She looked at him and said: Then do it yourself. The topping was that the F/O did the loadsheet and they missed their slot and
34 EWRCabincrew : Excellent to hear. Bravo for her. I bet that there was a lot of silence in the cockpit on the flight back.
35 MD11Engineer : Oh, yes, maybe I should have offered then two guys tea and discussed their wrecked childhood? :I I'm quite shure that you are not gay yourself, but b
36 MD11Engineer : We had an incident with one of my younger colleagues sent to a freighter aircraft of a wellknown Middle eastern airline to check out a problem and th
37 MD11Engineer : One more thing, which came to my mind: We are a low cost carrier. This could mean that e.g. we get a higher number of uneducated country bumbkins and
38 EWRCabincrew : There are the pilots, an interphone, the p.a., other customers, leaving the situation. Common sense, too.
39 MD11Engineer : The pilots didn't know anything about the trouble in the cabin until I told them, the other passengers were standing back, not wanting to get involve
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