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Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem  
User currently offlineEvilForce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (6 years 7 months 20 hours ago) and read 2239 times:

In the other thread we started discussing immigration / illegal immigration. As I said there it may not be an ideal situation, but it certainly isn't a crisis, overwhelming issue, or even something the average voter should care about.

I've heard lots of the arguments of why people may think it's a big problem, yet never have I seen many people consider the flip side of the debate. I feel that it is used by politicians to keep the electorate inflamed about something trivial so their attention is drawn off the really important problems.

Consider:

Quote:
The widespread belief is that illegal aliens cost more in government services than they contribute to the economy. This belief is undeniably false. Every empirical study of illegals' economic impact demonstrates the opposite. Undocumenteds actually contribute more to public coffers in taxes than they cost in social services.



Quote:
Undocumented immigrants living in the United States are subject to the same income tax laws as documented immigrants and U.S. citizens. However, because of their status most unauthorized workers pay a higher effective tax rate than similarly situated documented or U.S. citizens. Yet, these workers and their families use fewer government services than similarly situated documented immigrants or U.S. citizens.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=881584

Quote:
There is one group of Americans that would benefit from a dramatic cut in illegal immigration: high-school dropouts. Economists speculate that for the average high-school dropout, that would mean about a $25 a week raise if there were no job competition from immigrants. Illegal immigrants seem to have very little impact on unemployment rates.



Quote:

Even in industries with high concentrations of illegal workers -- such as construction, restaurants and some parts of agriculture -- the impact isn't as great as many people think. If there weren't illegal immigrants working in construction in places like Chicago and Miami, then demand for legal workers would go up, which would mean wages would rise. But very quickly, legal workers from other parts of the country would move to those cities, and wages would go back down. The net impact on wages would be relatively modest.

Quote:
The economic impact of illegal immigration is far smaller than other trends in the economy, such as the increasing use of automation in manufacturing or the growth in global trade. Those two factors have a much bigger impact on wages, prices and the health of the U.S. economy.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5312900

Quote:
The estimated seven million or so illegal immigrant workers in the United States are now providing the system with a subsidy of as much as $7 billion a year.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/bu...353600&en=78c87ac4641dc383&ei=5090

As is shown here http://ksghome.harvard.edu/%7EGBorjas/Papers/w11281.pdf the average American's wages are actually increased rather than decreased, as many "wage depression" theorists say. The net additional gain in wages and wealth is not large but is a net gain nonetheless for the average Joe.

As far as education is concerned, in MN the report of the cost of K-12 additional expenditures (while not attributing any gain from taxes witheld) was approx. $ 138,000,000 as the mean estimate. (Source: http://www.state.mn.us/mn/externalDo...gal%20Immigration%20Brief%2026.pdf ) Minnesota is 5.1 million people. By comparison New Mexico with a population of 2 million (or 60% smaller) spent $ 63.1 million according to the 2004 New Mexico Fiscal Policy Project. So the "issue" really isn't horrific in one area of the country vs. another. In Minnesota it costs the average resident $ 2.26 per month, and New Mexico resident $ 2.63 per month in additional education expenditures. Or in other words, one less stop at Starbucks every 6 weeks.

Someone also mentioned in the other thread that Mexican nationals remit $15 billion back to Mexico. However, that includes all Mexicans both legal and illegal. Even if we assume on the high side that 60% of that total is from illegal aliens we are talking about $ 9 billion per year 0.07% of our $ 13 trillion annual GDP. Again that's not granting any positive credit to our GDP from local purchases while in country, plus the purchase of American goods and services as exports to Mexico.

So again I say.... illegal immigration isn't much to worry about at all. It's a boogey man meant to scare you into submission.

[Edited 2008-01-31 11:51:12]

[Edited 2008-01-31 11:53:16]

76 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (6 years 7 months 19 hours ago) and read 2221 times:

Quoting EvilForce (Thread starter):
So again I say.... illegal immigration isn't much to worry about at all. It's a boogey man meant to scare you into submission.

You might want to tell Parkland Hospital that illegal immigration isn't a problem..

http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/parkland.asp


As a side note, your studies are all flawed for one basic reason. They assume the ending illegal immigration means ending immigration.. As in, the people will be gone and not replaced. This is not what most people who want to end illegal immigration want. They want legal immigrants. As in. The people are here, legally. And fully paying members of the system.

[Edited 2008-01-31 11:58:16]

User currently offlinePSA53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3061 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (6 years 7 months 19 hours ago) and read 2193 times:

In the article,"The Baby Factory,in effect."The politicians whose intentions were good at the time to write directives that
born in the USA, would make you eligible of all US social programs,including welfare, at the expense of the american taxpayer.Because of the abuse of the "baby factory" the system is overloaded and broken.



Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
User currently offlineEvilForce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (6 years 7 months 19 hours ago) and read 2189 times:



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 1):
As a side note, your studies are all flawed for one basic reason. They assume the ending illegal immigration means ending immigration.. As in, the people will be gone and not replaced. This is not what most people who want to end illegal immigration want. They want legal immigrants. As in. The people are here, legally. And fully paying members of the system.

This isn't true at all. Both McCain and Ted Kennedy along with their fellow bipartisan members were demonized by both parties as giving out "amnesty" in the last large attempt at an Immigration Reform bill, of which Bush was in favor of as well. The guest worker program drew howls of anger and displeasure. You can't have it both ways.


User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (6 years 7 months 19 hours ago) and read 2180 times:

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 3):
You can't have it both ways.

We don't want it both ways. You are right Amnesty is not an option in my opinion. The ones that came here illegally need to get kicked out. They broke the laws coming into our nation. They can go right back home for it. However, that doesn't mean that our current system of granting legal entry into the country and citizenship doesn't need to be overhauled. It does. Badly. But that doesn't mean we give free pass to the ones who broke the law to get here. There will be more to take their place. Legally.

[Edited 2008-01-31 12:19:58]

User currently onlineTugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5506 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (6 years 7 months 19 hours ago) and read 2165 times:



Quoting EvilForce (Thread starter):
In Minnesota it costs the average resident $ 2.26 per month, and New Mexico resident $ 2.63 per month in additional education expenditures.

I have a question: How are they regarding "resident"? Because if the schools are paid for by property taxes then you need to look at the cost per property owner not resident.

Quoting EvilForce (Thread starter):
Someone also mentioned in the other thread that Mexican nationals remit $15 billion back to Mexico. However, that includes all Mexicans both legal and illegal. Even if we assume on the high side that 60% of that total is from illegal aliens we are talking about $ 9 billion per year 0.07% of our $ 13 trillion annual GDP. Again that's not granting any positive credit to our GDP from local purchases while in country, plus the purchase of American goods and services as exports to Mexico.

Actually the remittances are a complete straw dog as even if legal these people would still be sending the money back "home". In fact this is what makes the USA the largest provider of "foreign aid" in the world. I can't find the figures at the moment but maybe someone else here knows them.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 1):
As a side note, your studies are all flawed for one basic reason. They assume the ending illegal immigration means ending immigration.. As in, the people will be gone and not replaced. This is not what most people who want to end illegal immigration want. They want legal immigrants. As in. The people are here, legally. And fully paying members of the system.

To me the biggest problem is two fold:
1.) This is all theory and conjecture. We would need to be able to control immigration (i.e. legal immigration) and increase or decrease it and see what the affect is in order to have any real data. Right now its just guessing because we don't know how many people there really are in the country.
2.) If we make illegal immigrants suddenly legal with no other changes then the fear of deportation is gone and the now legal workers will demand a higher wage, which will create new opening at the lower "illegal" wage and new illegal person will then move in to fill that void. SO the real question is: How do you prevent this from happening?

Tug



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (6 years 7 months 19 hours ago) and read 2150 times:

On this morning's Arizona Republic front page there is an article entitled; Apartments going empty as hiring law hits migrants. With the start of Arizona's employer-sanctions law (Jan 1, 2008) illegal immigrants are leaving Arizona for a state near you or going back to Mexico. (It should be noted only 1 of the 15 County Attorney's in the state, has said that they would aggressively enforce it). So the question becomes, with the labor force being reduced, how much are you willing to pay for your Big Mac, who's going to pick the crops that reach your dinner table and so on. What is does government do with the decrease in tax revenue (sales, income), I guess for cuts in services for everyone, perhaps that pothole on your street might not get fixed. Once more its not just Mexicans, but people from all over the world, you don't think Chinese aren't smuggled into this country,and then what about the students that have overstayed their student visas. Just points to ponder, no simple answers.

User currently offlineEvilForce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (6 years 7 months 19 hours ago) and read 2149 times:



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 4):
You are right Amnesty is not an option in my opinion. The ones that came here illegally need to get kicked out. They broke the laws coming into our nation. They can go right back home for it.

And this is a perfect example of why immigration reform is simply never going to happen. What you propose is impossible to do. You will bark at the moon all night demanding an ideologically conforming stance with no compromise, so the issue continues to grow. *shrug*

Quoting Tugger (Reply 5):
I have a question: How are they regarding "resident"? Because if the schools are paid for by property taxes then you need to look at the cost per property owner not resident.

I just put it in some sort of relevant context. Residents have to live somewhere. Whether they rent or own a home, so in essence everyone who lives in a state pays property tax. You can slice & dice the numbers whichever way you want. It's just hard to put into context what $138 million is, ya know? A $ 138 million expenditure to the federal govt is a rounding error. To a single person it's a Lotto cashout.


User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (6 years 7 months 19 hours ago) and read 2140 times:



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 7):
What you propose is impossible to do.

Why is deporting illegal immigrants impossible to do? No one has ever come up with a rational explanation why it is impossible to deport illegal immigrants... largely based I think on the fact that we do it by the bus load currently.


User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (6 years 7 months 19 hours ago) and read 2140 times:

To add a little fuel to the flame: (PLEASE NOTE THAT I MAKE NO OPINIONS...yet...)

Consider this:

Most illegal immigrants here have no problem obtaining a fake SSN. Last I read, the US government holds about 9 million 'suspect' SSNs. You have plenty of illegals with fake paperwork out there, able to do the same thing US citizens are able to do.

An employer gets the social security # from the worker. They have no requirement to verify whether it is correct or not. A lot of these illegal immigrants then hold 'real' jobs, AND PAY ALL REQUIRED TAXES.

Uncle Sam DOES NOT return any of this money, the extra money these illegals bring into the system is SURPLUS.

Plus, they spend money while here, adding to the taxes paid to municipalities. And are 'allowed' to own homes, adding to the tax base.

There are many financial incentives for governments to talk tough about illegal immigration while doing NOTHING about it.


User currently offlineQueso From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 7 months 19 hours ago) and read 2130 times:



Quoting EvilForce (Thread starter):
it certainly isn't a crisis, overwhelming issue, or even something the average voter should care about.

That's almost funny coming from someone living on the East Coast.

Tell ya what, come on down here to West Texas and I'll take you out spotting with my Minuteman buddies for a while. And you can see the damage they do to the land, you can see them fill the ER of the local hospital, you can stand in line behind them at the grocery store while one legal one among a group of 10 illegals pays for their groceries with a food stamp card, and you can watch them through night-vision goggles carrying drugs across the border.

Quoting EvilForce (Thread starter):
Illegal Immigration

The operative word here is ILLEGAL. Do you turn a blind eye when you see people commit other crimes too?


User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13554 posts, RR: 62
Reply 11, posted (6 years 7 months 18 hours ago) and read 2116 times:
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Illegal Immigration Is NOT A Big Problem

Please tell that to the victims of crimes committed by illegal aliens, including the Chandler Rapist here in the metro Phoenix area - a man who had been deported and then illegally crossed back into the U.S. AGAIN to commit his crimes.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineEvilForce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (6 years 7 months 18 hours ago) and read 2114 times:



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 1):
You might want to tell Parkland Hospital that illegal immigration isn't a problem..

Did you read the link you provided? Did you notice these small factoids they listed?

Quote:
Because of large payments from the Medicaid system, Parkland still ended 2004 with a $7.9 million surplus in obstetrics. Under a 2002 amendment to federal regulations, the births are covered by federal taxes through Medicaid because their children automatically become American citizens.



Quote:
At both institutions (Parkland Hospital), they (illegals) have a better record of paying their bills than low-income Americans do, the administrators said.



Quote:
Most illegal immigrants who go to major hospitals in Texas can show that they have been living here for years, said Ernie Schmid, policy director at the Texas Hospital Association. Many immigrant families have mixed status; often a patient with no documents has a spouse or children who are legal.

By law emergency rooms have to provide adequate care regardless of ability to pay, regardless of insurance coverage, regardless of Medicare, and regardless as to immigration status. If they fail they are find $ 50,000 per violation, in addition to the punishment that Medicare can seek. (Source: http://library.findlaw.com/2001/Jan/1/126650.html )

In Texas Harris County District Attorney Chuck Rosenthal has made the problem worse. He started criminal investigations into doctors treating illegal immigrants back in 2001. He said that any doctor providing care for any illegal immigrant that wasn't deemed "emergency" in nature, that they could face criminal charges. So now you have a set of illegal immigrants that can't get preventative treatment while paying full price for said care. Instead, they were then forced to go use the ER facilities where it's illegal to deny care.

And yes this is the same Harris County District Attorney Chuck Rosenthal that has been exposed to having an affair with his assistant. Misusing govt. property. Sending 900 emails of inappropriate nature. "The e-mails released this week included video clips of nudity and sex acts and a racist joke forwarded by Rosenthal that compares former President Clinton and black men". (Source: http://www.krgv.com/News/Other/98496...er-Harris-County-district-attorney ) Also he is being investigated for criminal interference with an ongoing investigation.

As a side note Mr. Rosenthal is a Republican elected in 2000, that ran as a religious conservative and presides over an office that sends more convicts to death row than any other prosecutors' office in the nation. A lawbreaker himself working to send people to death row at the highest rate of ANY office in the nation. Hypocritical & incompetent to boot.


User currently offlineEvilForce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (6 years 7 months 18 hours ago) and read 2099 times:



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 8):
Why is deporting illegal immigrants impossible to do? No one has ever come up with a rational explanation why it is impossible to deport illegal immigrants...

Um.... I said it cannot be done. How can you prove a negative? If you believe it's "easy" or "achievable" I would certainly be interested to hear your ideas. How exactly, and specifically do you dislodge 12 to 13 million people? That's the size of the population of Ecuador, and almost as large as the entire population of Chile or the Netherlands.

How do you "unscrew" a pregnant lady so to speak?


User currently offlineDelta767300ER From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2562 posts, RR: 12
Reply 14, posted (6 years 7 months 18 hours ago) and read 2099 times:



Quote:
Tell ya what, come on down here to West Texas and I'll take you out spotting with my Minuteman buddies for a while. And you can see the damage they do to the land, you can see them fill the ER of the local hospital, you can stand in line behind them at the grocery store while one legal one among a group of 10 illegals pays for their groceries with a food stamp card, and you can watch them through night-vision goggles carrying drugs across the border.

I would like to do that to. If I lived in one of those areas I would join the Minuteman Organazation. I've seen films online showing how the illegals trash up the land and stuff. Its disgusting.

-Delta767300ER


User currently offlineEvilForce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 7 months 18 hours ago) and read 2095 times:



Quoting Queso (Reply 10):
Tell ya what, come on down here to West Texas and I'll take you out spotting with my Minuteman buddies for a while.

I'm not real interested in vigilante justice thank you. Besides, Texas is a perfect example of what you get in a low tax, right wing state. Personally, I'd be happy to cut you guys loose. 49 states works just fine by me.  Wink

Quoting Queso (Reply 10):
And you can see the damage they do to the land,

Wait a minute. You, the anti-environmentalist, global warming isn't real guy, NOW all of a sudden cares about the land and mother Earth?  laughing 


User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (6 years 7 months 18 hours ago) and read 2084 times:

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 12):
Did you notice these small factoids they listed?

I don't consider it a perk that someone in the government gave them $70 million instead of $63 million.. $49 Million of that which was spent on illegal immigrants.

That would be $49 million per year from a single hospital.

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 12):
And yes this is the same Harris County District Attorney Chuck Rosenthal....

This is relevant how?

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 13):
Um.... I said it cannot be done. How can you prove a negative?

You could prove why it can't be done. Logistics? Econonomics? There has to be a reason why it can't be done, or it can be done.

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 13):
If you believe it's "easy" or "achievable" I would certainly be interested to hear your ideas.

Easy, no. Achievable, yes. It is done everyday.

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 13):
How exactly, and specifically do you dislodge 12 to 13 million people?

One bus load at a time.

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 13):
That's the size of the population of Ecuador, and almost as large as the entire population of Chile or the Netherlands.

A group of people the size of other nations entire populations... and somehow that's not a problem?

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 13):
How do you "unscrew" a pregnant lady so to speak?

Didn't I see you advocating abortion in another thread?

She can go on a bus too.

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 15):
Texas is a perfect example of what you get in a low tax, right wing state.

A booming economy? Several of the fastest growing cities in the nation? Yeah, it sucks.

[Edited 2008-01-31 13:26:27]

User currently offlineQueso From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (6 years 7 months 18 hours ago) and read 2083 times:



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 15):
I'm not real interested in vigilante justice thank you. Besides, Texas is a perfect example of what you get in a low tax, right wing state. Personally, I'd be happy to cut you guys loose. 49 states works just fine by me.



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 15):
Wait a minute. You, the anti-environmentalist, global warming isn't real guy, NOW all of a sudden cares about the land and mother Earth?

Well, I'll give you a C+ on your reply and an F on actually responding to the points I made. Typical though, since there is no way to dispute them.


User currently offlineEvilForce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (6 years 7 months 18 hours ago) and read 2072 times:

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 11):
Please tell that to the victims of crimes committed by illegal aliens, including the Chandler Rapist here in the metro Phoenix area - a man who had been deported and then illegally crossed back into the U.S. AGAIN to commit his crimes.

Auto accidents cause 42,000 deaths and 2.9 million cases of injury every year, yet we don't seriously consider banning autos. Yes, families and people victimized by crime is a tragedy. It's very unfortunate. But to blame illegal immigration is simply human nature at work I believe. Humans tend to justify or explain tragedy so as to minimize the risk in their own minds. It's similar to victim blaming. Blaming a woman for being at a bar, therefore she set herself up for rape. If she hadn't been there, she wouldn't have gotten raped. It's the way some deal with the fear of uncertainty and the realization that "it could happen to anyone".

So if that criminal was never in the USA he couldn't have killed a citizen. Um... ok. But seriously, how is that of any relevancy beyond that? If there were no gangs, we'd have no gang violence. Again.... true... but what else can you say?

[Edited 2008-01-31 13:55:24]

User currently offlineEvilForce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (6 years 7 months 17 hours ago) and read 2052 times:



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 16):
This is relevant how?

You're the person concerned with "legality" of everyone. You said; "They broke the laws coming into our nation", "granting legal entry...", "...broke the law to get here". "Legally."

I find it curious you don't find the illegal behavior of the District Attorney that is part and parcel of this issue as "relevant".

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 16):
Achievable, yes. It is done everyday.



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 16):
Quoting EvilForce (Reply 13):
How exactly, and specifically do you dislodge 12 to 13 million people?

One bus load at a time.

And how is that "one bus load at a time" thing working out for you down there in Texas? As far as dislodging a population integrated into a country, is simply unheard of on that size. I suppose the closest anyone ever came was the Nazi's in eliminating 6 million Jews. Personally I don't think "the final solution" would work in America. Certainly not in an America I want to live in. Even then, 6 million isn't even half of the population we are talking about. There's no political will to do it. Nor should there be.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 16):
Yeah, it sucks.

At least we can agree on something.  Smile


User currently offlineHalcyon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (6 years 7 months 17 hours ago) and read 2049 times:

So there IS a problem right now with illegal immigration. It shuts down hospitals. You're advocating letting the problem become worse, because it's not "too bad." How do you define what is "bad" then?

If some politician passes some pork worth $20 million dollars, that's not "much bad at all" compared to our economy...but I don't like it.


User currently offlineEvilForce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (6 years 7 months 17 hours ago) and read 2043 times:



Quoting Halcyon (Reply 20):
It shuts down hospitals.

Which hospitals? Where?


User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (6 years 7 months 17 hours ago) and read 2033 times:



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 19):
You're the person concerned with "legality" of everyone. You said; "They broke the laws coming into our nation", "granting legal entry...", "...broke the law to get here". "Legally."

I find it curious you don't find the illegal behavior of the District Attorney that is part and parcel of this issue as "relevant".

So any illegal act is now relevant to the conversation of illegal immigration?

Sorry, Mister Fantastic can't even make that stretch.

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 19):
I suppose the closest anyone ever came was the Nazi's in eliminating 6 million Jews.

Yay, Godwin'd. That didn't take long.

You lose. Personally though, I was expecting "Racist", or "Bigot" first.

Quoting EvilForce (Reply 19):
At least we can agree on something.

Don't worry, when the company you work for moves to Texas... Oh wait, you should worry.


User currently offlineHalcyon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (6 years 7 months 17 hours ago) and read 2029 times:



Quoting EvilForce (Reply 21):

Yeah, just keep the tin foil hat on...

Do you know what happens when we pick up a drunk illegal (And often ones that are here on special permits for work.) or one that's having some sort of medical problem?

I don't get paid for that time. If often wastes the time of three EMTs, a cop, and an ER staff. All for nothing.

And that's a problem to me.

Your argument is that the problem is not "bad" enough to justify a response.

My argument is that, if it's bad, it can use fixing.


Send them back, streamline the process so that they can come here and contribute in an observable way and help pay for our roads, and it'll be good. But while they're coming here, getting money, and then sending it to Mexico...yeah, I think not.


User currently offlineYellowstone From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3071 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (6 years 7 months 17 hours ago) and read 2020 times:



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 22):
Yay, Godwin'd. That didn't take long.

You lose. Personally though, I was expecting "Racist", or "Bigot" first.

Actually, Godwin's Law doesn't come into play here. EvilForce was looking for any historical precedents to the proposed roundup and extradition of 12 million illegal aliens, and the Nazi roundup of the Jews is indeed the most salient example of an operation of that type and scale. And if you are discussing an issue that actually does relate to the Nazis (in this case, the act of rounding up large subgroups of a population), then drawing the comparison is in fact valid.



Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
25 ANCFlyer : As long as I fork out $1 to benefit a single illegal immigrant, then it IS a problem, it IS something to worry about, period. Every illegal immigrant
26 Dougloid : There you go again, Force. Stirrin' up shit. All kidding aside, I look at it this way. Anyone who ever took Intro to economics in college should be ab
27 Post contains images EvilForce : So you think that the illegal behavior of the very same District Attorney who started a criminal investigation into doctors at the very same hospital
28 EvilForce : ANC you certainly have a point, and yes you're entitled to feel that way. But do you send in a nuke, when a sharpshooter on a roof would be just as e
29 MDorBust : No, I think this is a pointless distraction technique. Try again. I answered, and you Godwin'd. Yellowstone doesn't think so, but that was a solid Go
30 Mham001 : Well, I stopped reading right there because that statement is patently false. You live on the east coast? you need to get out more and see the long t
31 EvilForce : Ok, for a 4th time. How do you dislodge 13 million people? It can't be done in any pragmatic sense of the word. You haven't provided any enlightenmen
32 Lobster : Cost of Illegal Immigration This really pissed me off when I heard about it. Thank you Mr. Brossard Another incident in California I don't know where
33 Tugger : EvilForce will you or someone answer my question (or at least give some insight): Well? Tug
34 MDorBust : *cough* Want to start reading now? Wait, I don't really mean for you to answer that. Of course you read it, how else could you play the Nazi card. No
35 Mham001 : for the umpteenth time, that argument is a canard. Stop the employment spigot and they go away. They are not here because they love America, they are
36 ANCFlyer : Depends . . . do I give a shit about collateral damage or not? Certainly we'll never get them all . . . never. Only a fool would think otherwise. But
37 EvilForce : Dude, those aren't my words. They are the findings of Chapman University - School of Business & Economics. If it is patently false it should be quite
38 Dougloid : Force, you may not be old enough to remember this but back in the day when I lived in Jersey Bob and Ray were on the radio doing comedy routines. Ima
39 EvilForce : It's a good point. I'm not sure yet how to sum up how I think it "would" work or "could" work. I wanted to reread the guest worker provisions in the
40 Yellowstone : I made no such comparison. EvilForce was discussing the rounding up of millions of people, the removal of those people from society. Whether you want
41 AndesSMF : HELLOOOOO!!! ANYBODY THERE??? As the husband of a Mexican national, being a naturalized citizen myself, I perhaps can give you all a little more infor
42 PSA53 : So,you're saying the flow of 1st generation illegal immigration can't be fixed and should be allowed to continue?The dam is broken?The numbers should
43 Post contains images EvilForce : Radio? What is this strange object of which you speak? But I agree with both of your posts so far. I guess when I see others react in an over-emotion
44 Post contains images MDorBust : Nor did I say you did. Yes, sending them back is exactly what is being proposed. I must have missed that part of history... several million jewish pe
45 EvilForce : Since your future plan of action is the exact plan the USA has been following "for decades" then nothing needs to change. So you are agreeing with me
46 EvilForce : Which system are you referring to? Social security? Medicare? I'm not entirely sure. If you are speaking about SS/Medicare in my opening post there w
47 MDorBust : Uh no, Not so much. Uh no, not so much. You are forgetting the one vital step. Cut off the flow of illegal immigrants coming into the nation. Current
48 Aaron747 : In consideration of your last post, exactly what kind of appeal to logic were you undertaking with this quoted nonsense? Let's put everything aside f
49 PSA53 : I guess you do have an open pocketbook.No budget.Must be nice,Part 2.
50 PPVRA : I think that's one of the problems regarding Grady Memorial Hospital in Atlanta. Not shutting down but in financial trouble. ps: there's the whole te
51 EvilForce : I was asked to prove a negative. Can you provide any example of a group of people that numbered in the millions that were integrated into a society a
52 Post contains links Lgbga : http://www.gpb.org/healthdesk/financ...-crisis-at-atlantas-grady-hospital According to recent studies, poor fiscal management and outdated technology
53 MDorBust : No, you were asked to prove why it can't work. People every day prove why things can't work or can't happen. Why can't a Cessna 172 circumnavigate th
54 Post contains links Lgbga : I'm not agreeing or disagreeing......but who would do all the work if this happened? Just saying alot of cities and industry would be hard up. Last t
55 Post contains links ZOTAN : Because they account for a large portion of our workforce, and deportation would lead to an economic disaster. Plus, the cost of deporting 10-12 mill
56 DavestanKSAN : But of course, just because someone is Hispanic, it doesn't make them an illegal alien. Vice versa as well. Dave
57 EvilForce : Actually there is a fair amount of data that suggest the "problem" is a self-correcting one. The rise of a boom of children born, and coming of age w
58 Yellowstone : OK, I think we had a bit of a misunderstanding here. I don't have much of a problem with the continuation of the current deportation policy. If you'r
59 Lgbga : I agree! Didn't mean to give the impression that all Hispanics are illegal. There are plenty of Hispanics here in this area that are qualified to wor
60 EvilForce : That touches on the part of the equation of; what responsibility do WE hold for the current situation? As people came here illegally was there ever a
61 Seb146 : But not much in taxes. I worked with illegals and they know they should claim only themselves as a dependant, but since they are illegal (and do not
62 MDorBust : Legal immigrants. I don't think I need to say that a five year plan is a tad over ambitious. Then we are on the same page. Process them as they pass
63 EvilForce : May I ask what your understanding on our immigration policy is? It seems from your post that Mexican immigrants should apply legally, wait until the
64 Seb146 : Drop the word "Mexican" and, yes, I believe every immigrant to any country should file the paperwork before declaring themselves a resident of said c
65 FlyDeltaJets87 : So you're saying two wrongs make a right. No, that's not a question. It's a statement to you. Because that's what you've clearly implied- One isn't e
66 Post contains links EvilForce : I'm not sure if you know this but the USA's current immigration policy since 1965 is to give those immigrants with family already here preference. So
67 FlyDeltaJets87 : I'm not against reforming our immigration policy so it is easier to immigrate to the US. But we as a nation have every right to know who is within ou
68 EvilForce : I agree with you 100%. But as I mentioned above, there just seems like there can be zero compromise from the anti-illegal immigration crowd. If that'
69 Seb146 : Exactly: we as a nation should have every right to control who comes and goes at the boarders. I don't understand if conditions are so horrible in ot
70 LTBEWR : It is a problem on several levels including on all taxpayers for health care, education, police, justice system and jails, and other costs to the tune
71 EvilForce : Let's say for a moment that many, if not the majority of Mexican illegal immigrants that come here would usually stay 2 years +/-, and then return hom
72 EA CO AS : Apples and oranges. Owning a car isn't illegal, but uncontrolled border crossings are. You can't possibly be serious. How much more relevant can you
73 EvilForce : How so? What kind of consequences?
74 EA CO AS : Not really sure, to be honest. Therein lies the problem - without negative reinforcement to dissuade illegal border crossings, determined individuals
75 EvilForce : That simply is never going to happen. Other countries will not punish someone for something they didn't do within their jurisdiction. Also, the expen
76 Post contains images EA CO AS : You don't know that - you're simply being contrary. Read on... Countries we have extradition treaties with will gladly arrest and detain people - oft
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