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The Quandry Of The Anti-McCain Conservatives  
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2155 times:

I guess the fire-eathing conservatives are now burying Reagan Republicanism. Rush, Ann, Sean-all of them are hell-bent on taking down John McCain as not 'conservative" enough for their liking.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2008/02/04/AR2008020402798_pf.html

Well, maybe they all should read this article, chill a little, and SUPPORT the man who looks like will be the Standard-Bearer for the GOP this fall.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/02/06/roland.martin/index.html

A look at some of what McCain stands for:

-Extremely pro-life, a conservative position.

-Extremely pro-military, a conservative position.

-Extremely pro-gun, a conservative position.

-He supported the "Surge" in Iraq.

So, why do all of the anti-McCain conservatives hate him? Listening to Rush in a snippet on the news tonight, it's because he DARES even try to compromise with the other side, in part. Or it's because he doesn't walk, in lock-step with them on EVERY position? Or a combination of both?

I don't personally understand the mindset-which is prevalant among extremists on both sides-of not compromising. Our government works best when common ground is sought-everyone gets some of what they want, and everyone doesn't get everything they want. It's the only way to move forward and serve ALL the people. But extremists on both sides, liberal and conservative, think this is selling out.

Since we're talking about the conservative side in this instance, what is accomplished by not compromising with the Democrats when it is necessary? All that ends up happening, especially with such an equally divided nation, is, well......nothing. Nothing gets done.

What is more important? Towing strict party docrtine, or doing what is ultimately best for the nation? Is party or country more important when all is said and done.

Republicans have the most important choice they've made since Ronald Reagan was elected in 1980-to support John McCain or not to support him. If they do support him, they have the chance for an honorable man to be president, and one that will have the nerve to do what's right for ALL Americans, not just conservatives. If they don't, then they'll be wailing for the next 4 to 8 years, as either President Clinton or President Obama control the agenda in the White House, and pick at least 3 new Supreme Court justices that will decide for the next 20 years how the court goes.

It's up to them. Support what they see as an imperfect candidate, or sit and cry for the next 1 or two terms.

So, ultra-conservative Republicans: why do you hate him so much, and what now are you going to do, not that he isall but guaranteed the nomination?

103 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7431 posts, RR: 50
Reply 1, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2143 times:
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Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
I guess the fire-eathing conservatives are now burying Reagan Republicanism. Rush, Ann, Sean-all of them are hell-bent on taking down John McCain as not 'conservative" enough for their liking.

Well, they're upset becuase of his unwillingness in the past to support making the Bush taxcuts permanant or the McCain/Feingold campaign finance reform, McCain/Kennedy Guest worker program that even Bush supported. Or the fat that McCain and the gang of 14 led to the almost filabuster of the Federal Appeals Court Appointments. He's pissed off alot of people, but that's just politics. And I tink that notion of Huckabee on is ticket my rile conservatives as well. I think McCain should ask Romney since Romney was supported by conservatives, but that won't happen since the recent attacks in the debates and in the press

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
Well, maybe they all should read this article, chill a little, and SUPPORT the man who looks like will be the Standard-Bearer for the GOP this fall.

He's not my first choice, but I will vote for him if he's the nominee becuase of the Supreme Court Justices that maybe retiring.



Made from jets!
User currently offlineAloha73G From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2372 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2127 times:

Conservatives problems with McCain include:

1. Immigration.....LOTS of BIG difference here
2. Campaign Finance Reform (he supported a lawsuit AGAINST a Pro-Life Group related McCain Feingold)
3. His votes against Tax Cuts (in the 1980s, and present); admittedly not fluent in economics
4. His temperment (called other Senators "F-ing Assholes;" says "F You" on the Senate Floor)
5. Contemplted leaving Republican Party in 2001
6. Approached John Kerry in 2004 about being his VP nominee
7. Said that Hillary would be a good president
8. Judges....said Alito was too conservative. Fears of another "Souter"

I have some issues with McCain, but like my favorite Talk Show host (Laura Ingraham) I will support him whole heartedly if he is the nominee. Laura Ingraham seems to be a little more "rational" about him than the other hosts. She has her issues, but can keep it all in perspective.

My biggest concern about McCain is his temper....one outburst and hes through! If someone pulls out video of his antics in the Senate and it could doom him.

-Aloha!



Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2121 times:



Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
Extremely pro-life, a conservative position.

Yet he supported the nomination of several anti-life justices to the Supreme Court.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
they have the chance for an honorable man to be president, and one that will have the nerve to do what's right for ALL Americans, not just conservatives.

There are very many honorable men and women who aren't qualified to be president why should McCain be different?

Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 2):
His temperment (called other Senators "F-ing Assholes;" says "F You" on the Senate Floor)

Wasn't Falcon84 going absolutely apeshit when Cheney used the f*word on the Senate floor? Didn't Falcon use that as an argument about why Cheney wasn't proper to be President?

Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 2):
I will support him whole heartedly if he is the nominee. Laura Ingraham seems to be a little more "rational" about him than the other hosts. She has her issues, but can keep it all in perspective.

I don't know. It sickens me to have to vote for McCain. My current thought are that if he runs against HRC then the lesser of the two evils is McCain. But if he runs against Obama, then I really don't see much of a difference.


User currently offlineRJdxer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2118 times:

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of the writer.
That about says it all right there.

He voted against the tax cuts but now says he would vote to keep them permanently. Sound eerily familiar? BTW he is in favor of a BTU type tax on energy, can anyone say Kyoto? Supreme Court justices? He helped put together the gang of 14 which effectively cut off debate on conservative nominees. He has made it clear he will sign an amnesty bill for illegal aliens which I couldn't be more against. No doubt he is an honorable man but that in and of itself means nothing. There are lots of honorable men that have run for President.

As to your assumptions

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
Since we're talking about the conservative side in this instance, what is accomplished by not compromising with the Democrats when it is necessary? All that ends up happening, especially with such an equally divided nation, is, well......nothing. Nothing gets done.

And when Democrats controlled the Senate from 2000-2002 how much compromising were they willing to do? I find it funny that democrats always talk about how conservatives have to compromise when they are in charge but while in the minority say that it is their duty to oppose the majority? Remember how they claimed that there should be co-chiars on the committees? I haven't heard this suggestion since they regained the majority. Frankly, I hope McCain does win since the Congress will most likely remain in Democratic party hands. Sometimes gridlock is the best thing the average taxpayer can hope for.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
Towing strict party docrtine, or doing what is ultimately best for the nation?

I don't hear Senator Reid or Speaker Pelosi talking about not towing the party line. Why should an conservative? Democrats don't talk about compromising their beliefs. Any program that they support that does not get all the funding they think it should get, gets labeled as having had it's budget cut by Republicans. Now that's working together! I'm sorry, I've seen too many examples of Democrats in general, not just extremists, say one thing to get their way and then turn around and do something else or criticize Republicans about how it could have been so much better if only they had compromised. Beliefs have to be about something, especially core beliefs and Senator McCain does not share conservatives core beliefs. He has proven that several times over.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
If they do support him, they have the chance for an honorable man to be president, and one that will have the nerve to do what's right for ALL Americans, not just conservatives.

So in other words, the conservatives should just roll over? Resistance is futile? I couldn't disagree more. Senator McCain is winning the primaries with the support of moderates and crossover voters, but he is losing the conservative vote by a large margin.


User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7431 posts, RR: 50
Reply 5, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2105 times:
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The thing about McCain, is that he is being hyped so much by the media as the Phoenix(no pun intended)who will rise out of the ashes to make the world of politics a happy and friendly place. But their only setting him up to to tear him apart becuase they believe that he is the one Hillary and Obama can defeat the easiest. The last thing Democrats want is for the GOP to nominate someone like Romney or Thompson becuase they could easily unite the party more than McCain can. McCain's nomination will have a negative affect on the party, becuase McCain is so divisive amongst conservatives, and adding Huckabee to the ticket will make it even more divided. I'm not going to be holding my nose when and if I end up having to vote for McCain, becuase I don't think he's that bad of a guy, but the conservatives might do what they did in the last midterm election by staying home, simply becuase they don't want McCain's victory in their name. The Republican party will only solidly get behind someone who is a Reagan conservative or close to it, while the Democrats have shown that they will elect ANYONE with charisma who makes a great speech or has the name Clinton attached to it.


Made from jets!
User currently offlineRJdxer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2105 times:



Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 1):
the McCain/Feingold campaign finance reform,

I don't know how that slipped my mind.

Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 2):
will support him

I will vote but will be wearing a self contained hazmat suit when I do.


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2096 times:



Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 1):
Well, they're upset becuase of his unwillingness in the past to support making the Bush taxcuts permanant or the McCain/Feingold campaign finance reform, McCain/Kennedy Guest worker program that even Bush supported.

Fair enough. But on the tax cuts, he wanted some spending limits in place as well. A good idea. Instead, Bush and the GOP spent like kids in a toystore. On the guest worker prgram, again, he's looking for compromise that will work. What's best for the nation, not for the party line, in other words.

Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 2):
5. Contemplted leaving Republican Party in 2001

Never verified as far as I can tell.

Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 2):
6. Approached John Kerry in 2004 about being his VP nominee

Other way around, Aloha. Kerry allegedy approached him.


User currently offlineGuitrThree From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2059 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2091 times:



Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 2):
Conservatives problems with McCain include:

1. Immigration.....LOTS of BIG difference here
2. Campaign Finance Reform (he supported a lawsuit AGAINST a Pro-Life Group related McCain Feingold)
3. His votes against Tax Cuts (in the 1980s, and present); admittedly not fluent in economics
4. His temperment (called other Senators "F-ing Assholes;" says "F You" on the Senate Floor)
5. Contemplted leaving Republican Party in 2001
6. Approached John Kerry in 2004 about being his VP nominee
7. Said that Hillary would be a good president
8. Judges....said Alito was too conservative. Fears of another "Souter"

And lets not forget his $1.2trillion per year Global Warming McCain-Leiberman bill...

I love it when Liberals try to tell Conservatives who we are.

Sorry, but McCain is NOT CONSERVATIVE. Falcon, you are Pro-life too, are you saying you're conservative? I think not. Just because McCain is right on a few issues, doesn't make him perfect.

If I had to vote TODAY (if McCain was the GOP nomination), I would honestly vote for Clinton or Obama. Why? I look at it this way, McCain not only will destroy this countries economy, healthcare system, give amnesty to millions who broke into our country, and lead us down the world of high taxes, but he would destroy the Republican/Conservative party for years in doing so all for the quest of his self-centered power grab. Thats just the way it is.

Clinton and Obama will lead this country even worse down the path of economic failure that will make Jimmy Carter's economy look like a picnic. I know you libs can't see it, but add up all the programs they promise, add taxes, add Global Warming taxes, add fuel taxes, etc, etc, etc, and we will in two years get back the Congress and in 4 years hopefully get a real conservative back in office.

The biggest risk to voting for them of course is the Supreme Court.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
It's up to them. Support what they see as an imperfect candidate, or sit and cry for the next 1 or two terms.

Hah. Sit around and cry? Isn't that what the Democrats have been doing the last 7 years? I mean even today, we still hear people crying about the so-called stolen election. I, for one, certainly won't be crying. I'll accept the win of the Democrats as the voice of the people and just point out the issues they bring. And trust me, that won't take much. The first time middle income people start paying higher taxes when they repeal the tax breaks it will all go down hill from there fast...

Look at it this way, I'll ENJOY the next four years of watching Clinton or Obama in the Presidential office. It will be like the 2006 House and Senate on crack... a bunch of liberals doing nothing but reaching into the pockets of hard working Americans, handing it back out to illegals and Oprah watching (or whatever daytime show they watch, like the Jerry Springer show, Montel, MTV) couch warming losers. All this while providing job approval ratings of the low teens... and you say Bush's numbers are low. Just wait for the 20% interest rates, double digit inflation hits, unemployment thru the roof... just wait.. I'll enjoy the hell out if it because thats what its going to take to show the public-school-educated voting block who continue to think government run health care is "free" that Socialism just doesn't work.



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User currently offlineGuitrThree From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2059 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2083 times:



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 7):
But on the tax cuts, he wanted some spending limits in place as well.

Thats what he is saying NOW. When he voted against them, he said "McCain correctly noted that it didn't make sense to cut taxes in a time of war, especially in ways that benefited the wealthy to such a large degree.

Look it up, its in this Newsweek Article:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/108374

Again, yet another example of McCain NOT being a conservative. AND being a flip-flopper.

I just CAN'T vote for this man. I cannot, after bashing John Kerry for being a huge flip-flopper, can I ever vote for one that is actually bigger than him. He can claim all he wants about being a conservative. But its just not true.



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User currently offlineAloha73G From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2372 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2073 times:



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 7):
Other way around, Aloha. Kerry allegedy approached him.

Laura Ingraham has played a soundbite from John Kerry on her show numerous times in which Kerry says that McCain's people engaged him in serious talks about a Kerry/McCain ticket. If you want to say that Kerry is a liar, I won't disagree.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 7):
Never verified as far as I can tell.

I forget who confirmed it, but apparently he was going to do it but decided not to after "Jumpin' Jim" Jeffords did as he didn't want to be perceived as a "follower."

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 8):
And lets not forget his $1.2trillion per year Global Warming McCain-Leiberman bill...

Oh My God! Don't remind me!!

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 8):
I love it when Liberals try to tell Conservatives who we are.

DING, DING, DING, we have a winner!!

-Aloha!



Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
User currently offlinePA110 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2016 posts, RR: 23
Reply 11, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2051 times:
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I must admit, I'm glad that the McCain nomination will marginalize the conservatives, because that's exactly where they belong... along with the ultra liberals, neither group represents mainstream America. The values of the nation as a whole lie somewhere in between, where McCain seems to feel most comfortable, and has succeeded in building bridges in the Senate in order to get work done.

I hope to see Obama in the White House, but can probably live with McCain if necessary.



It's been swell, but the swelling has gone down.
User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2035 times:

Well what about Joe Lieberman?

A lot of Democrats can't stand him... he's too "conservative." And they abandoned him in the last election, forcing him to run as an independent, which he won resoundingly.

Don't make it sound like it's just Republicans who are too politically motivated! Speaker Pelosi had liberals protesting outside her home, because they think she was being too conservative on issues! This is the woman who went to Syria... Syria for god's sake!!!!

Face it, there are freakin' losers on both sides of politics, who see politics as war, and stop at nothing in order to destroy the other side. It's pathetic.

-UH60


User currently offlineGuitrThree From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2059 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2031 times:

Wow.. first you say....

Quoting PA110 (Reply 11):
the conservatives, because that's exactly where they belong... along with the ultra liberals, neither group represents mainstream America.

then you say....

Quoting PA110 (Reply 11):
I hope to see Obama in the White House,

Really? You do know that for the last two years, Obama's voting record puts him at the NUMBER 1 spot for the most liberal voting Senator? How can you say "ultra liberals (along with conservatives)" don't represent the mainstream American public but you pull for the most liberal Senator? Looks like yet another job of Obama Smoke-and-Mirrors has grabbed another victim, I mean voter... If you were true to your word, you would be supporting Hillary since she is more moderate than Obama...

Besides that, why do you say on one hand "conservatives" don't represent mainstream Americans, but it takes being an "ULTRA Liberal" before getting out of the mainstream? I find it amazing that liberals still, after two bitterly close elections that you can claim that "conservatives" aren't even close to mainstream. But then again, this is coming from someone who thinks the number one liberal senator is mainstream so it shouldn't surprise me at all.



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User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2028 times:



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 12):

Well said, UH60. I see taking care of twins hasn't dulled your mind.  Big grin


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21857 posts, RR: 55
Reply 15, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2002 times:

It's a fantastic position for ultra-conservatives to be in, if you dislike ultra-conservatives.

They can either support McCain against whoever the Democrats put up, or they can concede the election to the Democrats. McCain may get support from independents, but he needs a decent percentage of the conservative base to support him in order to win.

It's not going to be Romney, and it's not going to be Huckabee.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 13):
You do know that for the last two years, Obama's voting record puts him at the NUMBER 1 spot for the most liberal voting Senator?

Says who? Such rankings are generally pretty subjective.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineThreeIfByAir From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 709 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1982 times:



Quoting Pope (Reply 3):
I don't know. It sickens me to have to vote for McCain. My current thought are that if he runs against HRC then the lesser of the two evils is McCain. But if he runs against Obama, then I really don't see much of a difference.

McCain and Obama are almost the same? What did I miss? Except for both being men, I can't think of anything.

McCain as President could end up being more conservative than he appears (which is funny, since he is a fairly conservative guy in reality). GOP members of Congress wouldn't let him get away with most of the things they disagree on, anyways, and most Democrats don't support much of his platform either. He'd need to pick a side, and I can't see that being with the Dems.

Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 2):
1. Immigration.....LOTS of BIG difference here
2. Campaign Finance Reform (he supported a lawsuit AGAINST a Pro-Life Group related McCain Feingold)
3. His votes against Tax Cuts (in the 1980s, and present); admittedly not fluent in economics
4. His temperment (called other Senators "F-ing Assholes;" says "F You" on the Senate Floor)
5. Contemplted leaving Republican Party in 2001
6. Approached John Kerry in 2004 about being his VP nominee
7. Said that Hillary would be a good president
8. Judges....said Alito was too conservative. Fears of another "Souter"

Immigration - well, do conservatives hate Bush too? It was his idea...

Campaign Finance Reform - that is old news, and I don't see anyone having trouble raising money

Tax Cuts/Economics - McCain wants a balanced budget, oddly enough, and supports cutting spending. That seems to be a fiscal conservative position. How much did Bush or Reagan know about economics?

Temperment - he and Dick Cheney have that in common, then. And that isn't conservative or liberal, just bad manners.

Leaving the party - well, he's still there

John Kerry - I heard that the Kerry campaign asked him, not the other way around.

Hillary - hmm, I wonder if he actually believes that...

Judges - Stevens will probably retire soon, but McCain supported Roberts, who is pretty conservative himself.


User currently offlineAloha73G From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2372 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1971 times:



Quoting ThreeIfByAir (Reply 16):
Immigration - well, do conservatives hate Bush too? It was his idea...

On immigration yes, I would venture that most conservatives do hate Bush's position on the issue.

Quoting ThreeIfByAir (Reply 16):
Campaign Finance Reform - that is old news, and I don't see anyone having trouble raising money

The issue isn't so much with raising money, but the prohibition of "issue" ads within 30 or 60 days of an election.

Quoting ThreeIfByAir (Reply 16):
Tax Cuts/Economics - McCain wants a balanced budget, oddly enough, and supports cutting spending. That seems to be a fiscal conservative position. How much did Bush or Reagan know about economics?

Reagan & Bush both supported spending cuts, however with the way Congress likes to fund their "pet projects" (earmarks) it will probably never happen. Either way, both did not do enough to cut spending.....veto something Mr. Bush....ANYTHING.

Quoting ThreeIfByAir (Reply 16):
Temperment - he and Dick Cheney have that in common, then. And that isn't conservative or liberal, just bad manners.

Agreed, but it doesn't make it right, or a valuable personal trait.

Quoting ThreeIfByAir (Reply 16):
John Kerry - I heard that the Kerry campaign asked him, not the other way around.

Quotes from an interview with Mr. Kerry:
Jonathan Singer: There's a story in The Hill, I think on Tuesday, by Bob Cusack on the front page of the paper talking about how John McCain's people -- John Weaver -- had approached Tom Daschle and a New York Congressman, I don't remember his name, about switching parties. And I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about what your discussions were with him in 2004, how far it went, who approached whom... if there was any "there" there.

John Kerry: I don't know all the details of it. I know that Tom, from a conversation with him, was in conversation with a number of Republicans back then. It doesn't surprise me completely because his people similarly approached me to engage in a discussion about his potentially being on the ticket as Vice President. So his people were active -- let's put it that way.

Singer: Okay. And just to confirm, you said it, but this is something they approached you rather than...

Kerry: Absolutely correct. John Weaver of his shop...
from http://www.mydd.com/story/2007/4/3/11936/97033

Again, if you want to assert that Kerry is a liar, I won't fight you.

Quoting ThreeIfByAir (Reply 16):
Hillary - hmm, I wonder if he actually believes that...

Considering everything else on this list, I wouldn't be surprised if he did. Sad

Quoting ThreeIfByAir (Reply 16):
Judges - Stevens will probably retire soon, but McCain supported Roberts, who is pretty conservative himself.

True, but many conservatives are worried that McCain would choose a justice who agrees with him on important issues like Campaign Finance Reform, Enemy Combatants/Inerrogation (torture?), etc.



Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
User currently offlineThreeIfByAir From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 709 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1963 times:



Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 17):
Again, if you want to assert that Kerry is a liar, I won't fight you.

He very well could have been. You know how political spin works - Kerry doesn't want to be seen as being "desperate" by asking McCain to be his VP, so he claims McCain's people were talking to him. Regardless, McCain obviously turned him down.

Quoting Aloha73G (Reply 17):
True, but many conservatives are worried that McCain would choose a justice who agrees with him on important issues like Campaign Finance Reform, Enemy Combatants/Inerrogation (torture?), etc.

If someone won't support McCain because he doesn't approve of torture, maybe they should try out the cattle prod for a bit and see how much fun it is.  Yeah sure

On most conservative issues, McCain's Supreme Court choice would probably fit right in. On issues like abortion, private property rights (please, someone stop eminent domain abuse), etc., conservative values would not be in danger.


User currently offlineEvilForce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1959 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 15):
McCain may get support from independents, but he needs a decent percentage of the conservative base to support him in order to win.

Actually that isn't the case at all. The punditry says that, but it's simply not true. Let the whack jobs sit the election out and be exposed as really quite irrelevant to the process. You don't need em. I've never understood why you bother trying to placate them, (Either extreme right or left) as they will never be happy anyway. Screw em.

But it is amusing to hear all the cries that McCain isn't a "Reagan Republican". Hmmm......let's review shall we:

1.) Reagan grew the size of government considerably after claiming he was going to axe the entire Dept of Energy, and Dept of Education. Instead he created an entirely new one, called Dept. of Veterans Affairs. In fact the number of workers on the federal payroll rose by 61,000 under Reagan. (By comparison, under Clinton, the number fell by 373,000.)

2.) The right's desire to have Reagan outlaw abortion was never seriously pursued or even attempted.

3.) Reagan broke with the hardliners in his administration and compromised with the Soviets on arms control.

4.) Reagan when faced with the terrorist bombing of Lebanon, tucked tail and withdrew our troops.

5.) His assault on entitlements never materialized; instead he saved Social Security in 1983 by raising taxes.

6.) Reagan raised taxes a grand total of four times just between 1982-84. In 1986 under the guise of "Tax Reform", Reagan raised corporate taxes by $120 billion over five years (that's in 1986 dollars too) and closed corporate tax loopholes worth about $300 billion. Conservatives in his own administration were apoplectic. In addition, Reagan under his "Reform Act" initiated the horror that conservatives can't stand; the Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC).

And before I have to hear the inaccurate "yeah but Congress didn't cut the budget" excuse (Which I've never understood the illogical leaps conservatives make. Reagan gets all the credit for cutting taxes and no blame for not cutting spending, and the Congress gets all the blame for spending. Bizarre.) In many years in fact Reagan submitted budgets that had every bit as much spending in them, as what Congress actually approved. In fact in one, if not two years Congress approved a budget SMALLER than Reagan submitted overall. As an example in 1989, Reagan submitted a budget for $ 1.1 trillion. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...940DE7D91138F931A25751C0A96E948260 The final budget that Congress approved? $ 1.14 trillion. http://origin.www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy09/pdf/2009_tab_hist-1.pdf

7.) The Reagan Amnesty bill of 1986. Nuff said.

And I could go on and on and on. But it's these very things that helped make him a popular and "great" President. He knew when it was time to compromise, and get the people's work done.

So if you don't consider McCain a "Reagan Conservative", you are simply wrong. Facts are stubborn things ya know.

[Edited 2008-02-06 22:19:51]

User currently offlineMham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3719 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1958 times:

I wouldn't vote for him solely on his immigration stance. Anti immigration feelings are not solely a conservative issue. I don' much care about the other points listed, but all I really want to see the current laws enforced, and the immigration problem will go away. We are seeing signs of that now.
I would vote for Hillary over McCain, Obama I'd have to think about. I'd really need to see how the Congressional races are going.


User currently offlinePWM2TXLHopper From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1360 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1947 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
So, why do all of the anti-McCain conservatives hate him?

A lot him them dislike him because of his stance on the southern border and "ILLEGAL" immigration. This is a serious issue, as serious as any other issue facing our country, and a lot of voters want somebody tough on this. Where he's lacking on this issue is something people don't want to compromise on. Particularly large populations of Republican voters who've either been directly or indirectly affected by illegal immigration. One example of indirect results of illegal immigration that we've all experienced is exorbitant health care expenses,unaffordable insurance, and loss of health insurance being provided by employers.. These increase in large part because of all the illegals skipping out on hospital bills everytime they go to the ER. To make up lost money, hospitals, doctors and insurance agencies charge higher prices for services. At the same time, a lot of Democrats want universal health care, and this is impossible for the US to do because simply put, we just can't afford it in a country of our size! We don't live in places like Norway, Sweden, or even Canada that can afford to pay for universal health care because they only have ten million people.

I'm a right leaning, registered Independent with a few liberal tendencies thrown in the mix. I'm pretty much neutral on my opinion of McCain, but I can't say any of this years candidates are particularly attractive to me.

[Edited 2008-02-06 22:41:14]

User currently offlinePA110 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2016 posts, RR: 23
Reply 22, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1947 times:
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Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 13):
Besides that, why do you say on one hand "conservatives" don't represent mainstream Americans, but it takes being an "ULTRA Liberal" before getting out of the mainstream? I find it amazing that liberals still, after two bitterly close elections that you can claim that "conservatives" aren't even close to mainstream. But then again, this is coming from someone who thinks the number one liberal senator is mainstream so it shouldn't surprise me at all.

Blah blah blah... For the record, I want to see Obama, because he stands for a fundamental change in attitude and tone of government. It's time that we stop electing morons who can't do anything other than tell us what to fear and who's to blame. Obama brings the promise of inspiring the best and brightest to come serve the public, instead of the rampant cronyism the last 8 years have brought us.

And ya know what? I don't really care what you think. At the end of the day, I'm just enjoying the discomfort you feel with your choices. And that gives me no end of joy! With Huckadoodle and Romney out of contention, I can live with with "any of the above".

[Edited 2008-02-06 23:08:02]


It's been swell, but the swelling has gone down.
User currently offlineEvilForce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1931 times:



Quoting PWM2TXLHopper (Reply 21):
One example of indirect results of illegal immigration that we've all experienced is exorbitant health care expenses,unaffordable insurance, and loss of health insurance being provided by employers.. These increase in large part because of all the illegals skipping out on hospital bills everytime they go to the ER.

Nope, you're wrong.

As we discussed in the other thread on that very subject, even the administrators of the hospitals in question admitted the "illegals" were better at paying their bills than the regular Joe Citizen.

Also, the hospitals that are being "crushed", like the one so many like to use as an example in Houston, actually ran almost an $ 8 million SURPLUS in the maternity ward alone.

But it's simply easier to blame everything on those "darned illegal Mexicans". After all the Germans had the Jews to blame for all their economic problems too. The Germans now blame the Turks. The central Europeans blame the Gypsies. The Mexicans blame the El Salvadorans.

As the other thread also proved, even for all the "costs" of illegal immigration added, their respective taxes paid, etc... that illegal immigration actually ADDS almost 1% to the yearly income of the average Joe American.


User currently offlinePWM2TXLHopper From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1360 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1918 times:



Quoting PA110 (Reply 22):
esides that, why do you say on one hand "conservatives" don't represent mainstream Americans, but it takes being an "ULTRA Liberal" before getting out of the mainstream?

This is one of those issues where the liberals are out of touch with reality! The fact that they truly believe most of the country's population is progressive, secular and liberal. Now it's true most young people under 35 tend to lean to the left, as well as the population in urban areas of the Northeast or places like Seattle and San Francisco. However, the reality is 60-65% American identify themselves as being Traditional, and non-secular. (Meaning they practice a religious faith, believed in a higher power, or were spiritual in some other sense) Also, America has the highest percentage of citizens from a Western country who still regularly or occasionally attend religious services.

Then you have the success of Fox news, which the libs love to go postal about. They like to say how inaccurate it is, but yet they usually have never even watched it more then a minute. But anyway, FOX news ratings have blown CNN, MSNBC, and all the other network's ratings out of the water! They've only been on the air half the amount of years as these others, and simply put, more people choose FOX than any other network because it's from a perspective they can relate to! There's also talk radio.... For years, right leaning talk radio has enjoyed success and profit, but Left leaning talk radio always fails! Air America only lasted as long as it did because the founder was pouring in tons of money to finance it and keep it on the air. Left leaning talk radio doesn't work for the same reason liberal news doesn't work. The overwhelming majority of the population in the USA are traditional conservatives, and they don't buy the oppositions kooky outlook on things. That's the same reason modern Democrats loose presidential elections, because they are out of touch with who mainstream Americans are, and they tend to pander to those with liberal politics or the younger generation. Sure this is a lot of people, millions, but the numbers don't out number those of traditional mainstream America.

Sure in places like NYC, San Francisco, Los Angeles there's a secular left leaning society and culture that makes ups millions, and gives those people in it the false impression that's the way everybody thinks in America, but they don't outnumber those in smaller cities, and towns around the country, or even other larger cities that hold a more traditional and conservative view. Especially large areas of the Midwest, and South. You'll often hear libs just dismiss these as the uneducated, the ignorant, close minded , and the non civilized simpletons. Probably a lot are, but I bet it doesn't outnumber those who are just down home conservatives with and traditional views, morals, and values? Just look at how quick non-southerner's often jump to the conclusion somebodies a redneck just because of their accent, when in fact they might be doctor or somebody else that's highly educated. Assumptions without merit. In turn this all comes back to Lib's being completely out of touch about who mainstream America is.


25 PWM2TXLHopper : I don't see them paying any income tax. Who cares about sales tax, that's nothing in comparison! I also don't see them paying car insurance for their
26 IAirAllie : The way I see it I as a real conservative I have 2 options in the general election should Mccain get the nomination. Write in a candidate or vote for
27 AndesSMF : Why the hell do you care? Your opinion will not change regardless of what is stated here.
28 Post contains images KC135TopBoom : Senator McCain is no conservative................... Let's not forget he wants to close Gitmo, and give the terrorist US Constitutional, as well as G
29 Mir : If that's the case, then why is McCain running away with the GOP nomination? He's not the one who appeals most to those "traditional conservatives",
30 AndesSMF : Again, why do you give a rat's ass? Are YOU going to vote for him? Three-way races have a tendency to split the votes, where the two favorite candida
31 Mir : If it's between him and Hillary, yes I probably would. If it were between him and Obama, I still might. -Mir
32 AndesSMF : You don't have to justify your choices to me, and neither do I have to justify my choices to you. Though I'm pretty certain that if Obama gets the no
33 Mir : I don't believe I asked you to. -Mir
34 Falcon84 : Maybe that's an indication of just how impotent the extreme conservative "base" of the party really is. If McCain is winning despite losing so many u
35 Post contains images EvilForce : What a disgusting sentiment. What a complete lack of respect you show a veteran and a patriot. John McCain spent 5 years in the Hanoi Hilton being to
36 UH60FtRucker : Oh calm down. No need to get hysterical over the issue... I highly doubt that KC135 -- a man who has served for many years in the USAF -- was truly t
37 Mham001 : You conveniently dismissed the LA hospital system. Nothing was "proved" in the other thread.
38 Falcon84 : I think what is amusing is, that as time goes by, the legend of Reagan is really different from the reality. They talk about 'Reagan Conservatives",
39 EvilForce : Yup, I think it's part and parcel to their identity. They can't admit to themselves that George W, embodied everything they wanted in an uber-conserv
40 Pope : If McCain wins the presidency then your statement about conservatives being marginalized is 100% correct. But if McCain wins the nomination and loose
41 EvilForce : He's not the only one. A large contingent of the right wing feel as GW does.
42 Post contains images Falcon84 : How does being a minority in both branches-and most likely, the third branch, strengthen the party? That's absurd, Pope. It'll mean that Conservatism
43 Wingnut767 : Because of all of the above I would do the same as GuitrThree. It is not about the republican party line but about the Conservative philosophy and wh
44 EvilForce : Yup. Many on this site would consider me a left wing loon. I voted for Reagan in my high school mock election. I was 18 to vote for George Bush Sr, b
45 Pope : Again, in your haste to ridicule, you didn't even take the time to read. I never said the party was strengthened. I said the conservative wing of the
46 EvilForce : LMAO. Is that the Drug Limbaugh flavored Kool Aid they are passing around these days? Given the Senate race in 08, even if McCain wins the White Hous
47 Pope : I think you really should take some time reading what people like Falcon84 and TedTAce write all the time about their life. It seems that whether tim
48 EvilForce : Well you said "liberals on this forum", so I thought you were talking about all of us. I can't say I know what the two posters you mention usually po
49 LTBEWR : Perhaps one factor for the Conservatives being against McCain is they fear they will not be able to manipulate him like they do with GWB or were able
50 Pope : Fair enough. I should have said "many liberal on this forum" or "many of the most vocal liberals on this forum" ....
51 Falcon84 : Didn't say either side had to do that, Wingnut-but BOTH SIDES need to look for common ground, and that has been sorely missing since 1993. And I put
52 Pope : Perfect illustration of my point. In your mind WJC is the victim. All these things happened to him, he bears no responsibility for putting himself in
53 Post contains images Falcon84 : The only one he was not a victim of was his own stupidity with Monica Lewinsky. But Whitewater-a land deal where he and his wife LOST money? Filegate
54 Aaron747 : Oh for you-know-what's sake...this much ado about nothing over McCain has easily been the most annoying aspect of the entire campaign. Why does ANYBOD
55 EvilForce : So you don't like McCain. Nor Romney. Nor Huckabee. Nor Ron Paul, if I remember correctly. Who exactly would say exemplifies your idea of what conser
56 Pope : Instead of cooperating and ending the matter quickly he chose to fight it every step of the way. Why obstruct if there's nothing to hide. Don't you r
57 Falcon84 : If you think you've done nothing wrong, Pope, you'd fight it, too. Or would you meekly submit? I don't think you would, if it meant clearing your goo
58 AGM100 : How dare we have issues with our candidates ! Dont we know that as along as they have a D or an R on their flag we need to line up. I am proud of the
59 Falcon84 : You were fine up till the last sentence, because the issues have been discussed on both sides-but so have non-issues. Again, it shows you have two se
60 Pope : IMO - Rudy was the closest to what I set forth. Fiscal conservative and libertarian on social issues. While he wasn't perfect he was better than the
61 AGM100 : Agreed Falcon , I do not agree with everything coming from the right-wing talkers for sure. But I guess in the long run this is how issues get discus
62 Pope : Wrong. You keep insisting that all conservatives are the same. You throw the religious extremist in with the fiscal conservatives and then say that t
63 Falcon84 : Great, the least honest of the bunch is who you wanted. Just what this nation needed. A sheister, and someone who can only talk about being a mayor a
64 Pope : How about I just send you my ballot next time and allow you to fill it out. The guy asked me who I supported. I answered the question. Now you want t
65 Post contains images Falcon84 : And I gave my opinion, which I'm allowed to do on this forum.
66 Pope : Absolutely. Being wrong is a Constitutionally protected right.
67 Flighty : Ultra conservatives might need to launch their own party, similar to the Communist Party USA. Just don't expect to win. Instead, expect to be laughed
68 Pope : Here's what I don't get. Do liberals listen to Rush or don't they? Many seem to be "experts" on what he says yet, none ever claim to listen to more t
69 Post contains images Falcon84 : Well done! But many consider him as Gospel, and we both know that. That's the problems-another process of the dumbing-down of this nation when charla
70 Pope : I've never said idiocy is the exclusive domain of the democratic party. The GOP has many retards in our ranks. However, I honestly don't know a singl
71 N328KF : Why, Teddy, of course. (See sig...)
72 Flighty : I object to the term liberal. I am very conservative. However, I do not like Bush, Rush or Cheney. Ron Paul (a wacko) is actually the most conservati
73 Pope : These two statements are completely contradictory. In fact overturn Roe v. Wade would not outlaw abortion in the U.S. but only return the matter to t
74 Post contains links MD-90 : I don't think it's a quandry at all. Better to support Obama than insane McCain. Evil is better than crazy. http://www.tothepointnews.com/content/view
75 AndesSMF : As I have sadly stated before, McCain was a POW for 5 years in the infamous 'Hanoy Hilton'. No one, but no one that left that prison alive would leav
76 Falcon84 : I think the term "evil" to describe Barack Obama goes way too far. I see nothing evil in the man at all.
77 AndesSMF : I think that regardless of his politics, long-term benefits to this country can be had by his election. Why? Because just the fact of having him elec
78 MD-90 : Rudy? A fiscal conservative and libertarian on social issues? You'll have to excuse me for wondering about that. Sounds like you ought to support Ron
79 Post contains links RJdxer : Its a primary vote, in a lot of states you cannot cross party lines to vote for someone on the other side. In the general election there is every pos
80 CastleIsland : The funny thing about that is, McCain has carried a substantial amount of national support from the voters. Methinks that if McCain had adopted more
81 Post contains images GuitrThree : Really? In what way. All I hear him say and promise in terms of change more and more government programs which do nothing but multiply the general pu
82 CastleIsland : How much did you have to pay for such a broad brush?
83 GuitrThree : I don't know about that Logan. Listening to his speech today and his ad's and other speeches on the trail, he is trying to sell himself as a Regan Re
84 GuitrThree : They were on sale, buy-one demagoguery speech and get a anti-liberal broad brush for free!
85 DavestanKSAN : Nor are your ideas, or attitude. See below: You're getting your panties wet because you can't wait to see a Democrat fail. You'd rather we vote a Dem
86 Falcon84 : Same with people who watch Springer and Montel. TV's are in all kinds of break rooms, you know. Oh, I forgot-that ruins the specter you try to raise
87 CubaLibre : are you going to send your check for 31,500 to IRS to pay your share of the deficit that has doubled under the fiscally "conservative" republican par
88 Post contains images RJdxer : The top tax bracket was 70% when he took office, 38% when he left office. As discussed above the only individual tax rate that went up was the lowest
89 GuitrThree : No. Thats not it. It's clear that more and more the people of this country are wanting more and more government handouts. Free Health Care. Free Coll
90 GuitrThree : Only $31,500??? I thought it was much more than that.. I never once said the Republicans of late have been responsible... they haven't... and that's
91 Jetjack74 : Bindging on sake will make a man do the unimaginable
92 DavestanKSAN : No worries, I understand, and sorry to hear about your Father's dad. I can see your point clearer now, but I still think it's within the wrong line o
93 Pope : I would love it if I only had to pay $31,500. My tax bill was more than 6x that amount in 2006 and is going to be more than that in 2007. So now that
94 GuitrThree : 7 tough years how? The stock market has exploded, unemployment has become almost nothing, interest rates have been really low, business has exploded.
95 Aaron747 : Man is probably the wrong gender - but the local women certainly do the unimaginable when they've had their share. So much so that most the expats he
96 Post contains links CubaLibre : that is on top of what you paid. Also people making 30,000 a year better go out and get another full time job to pay their share too. I personally ju
97 CastleIsland : Well then be careful where you store it, as those vitriolic toxins may leach into your groundwater. Can't help you there.
98 IAirAllie : In the right area, Military/defence. Again in the right area, Military/defence.
99 Falcon84 : Your opinion. Not mine.
100 Post contains images EvilForce : I love it that the radical right wing whack job talk radio has been marginalized, for what it is. Complete bullshit, only interested in mock outrage t
101 Post contains links DavestanKSAN : I guess we will just have to disagree on that. I appreciate that you admit some of the faults of the President. I'll concede that perhaps my statemen
102 CastleIsland : Duly noted. My post above was sent up before I had seen this. A civil argument. No harm in that!
103 HALFA : The one area??? Lets see. Obama won Iowa, Connecticut, Delaware, Kansas, Minnesota, North Dakota, Colorado, Utah, Idaho, Alaska, and New Mexico. Quit
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