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Tougher Policy For EC Residents To Go To USA?  
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13078 posts, RR: 12
Posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2221 times:

This link is to an article in the UK's Guardian discussing the new demands for the USA government for extensive pre-clearing of passengers on flights to the USA, flying over USA airspace, to require USA armed air Marshalls on all flights to the USA and other draconian demands. I put this post here due rather than the Civil Aviation area due to the political nature of this subject.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/11/usa.theairlineindustry

Apparently it mainly affects those EC and other countries where we have visa waiver policies. Worse, it could mean someone would have to buy a ticket not less than 2-3 days before the trip to allow more time to do the background checks. Anyone who accompanies anyone beyond security at a foreign airport would also be subject to the full checks of background like a passenger. Of course, these background checks are not only onerous, but may be illegal per the EC charter and many EC countries policies and laws as to personal privacy, it will slow and discourage business and tourist travel. The armed air Marshall program would be expanded, but this gets into issues of police jurisdiction, conflicts with strict gun possession laws in the EC counties and just the risks of armed guards on aircraft flights.

Of course, if the USA were to get it's way, as it appears with the Czech Republic, it would devastate tourism and business travel in turn hurting tourism and business on both sides of the Atlantic. As retaliation, the EC countries would probably requiring all USA tourists and business travelers to get visas at great costs and inconvenience (I would note that as a anti-terror measure in the early to mid-1980's France required USA citizens even as tourists to get visas; it was dropped due to the hurt it did on tourism).
Any comments on this, how it can or should be avoided?

21 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineToast From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 2183 times:



Quoting LTBEWR (Thread starter):
Any comments on this, how it can or should be avoided?

Well, I'm a national of a country that does not have a visa waiver agreement with the US. Getting a visa is basically an expensive lottery, and for one US visa application I would need to surrender more private (and very intimate) data than I have in my entire life. So I don't ever travel to the US. It's a shame, but I refuse to be treated as a potential criminal for whatever reason.

This latest move is yet another attempt by the US to bully other nations into compliance with its government's ever-growing xenophobic paranoia disguised as security concerns. As the article in the Guardian correctly stated, weaker Eastern European nations will be the first to give in to the demands. Demands that might as well have been taken verbatim out of "1984".

It's high time that the EU stops giving in to such demands. As long as paranoid right-wingers shape US foreign policy, there is no possible compromise. I say give the US a taste of its own medicine and retaliate with similar visa restrictions. I'm sorry to say it, but there really is no other way to deal with such unilateral "diplomacy".

I was next to the US Embassy in Brussels yesterday. The street in front of it - a public thoroughfare - is a sea of barbed wire full of assorted cops and armored vehicles. Gimme a break. Really sad to see how the US surrenders to fear.  no 


User currently offlineStratosphere From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1651 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 2166 times:

This is laughable. This ass monkey Bush is trying to drop the hammer on the EU. Yet our borders are as porous as they have ever been. I for one will be glad to see this clown go. I have really been reluctant to go overseas to Europe because of this idiot and how Europe perceives us now. I know we have a war on terror. But I believe Bush has inflamed this issue and made it global. He should have stayed after the talaban and left it at that. His personal vendetta against Saddam even though he was a brutal dictator has left us hated in the rest of the world and a lot of american serviceman dead.


NWA THE TRUE EVIL EMPIRE
User currently offlineToast From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 2162 times:



Quoting Stratosphere (Reply 2):
I have really been reluctant to go overseas to Europe because of this idiot and how Europe perceives us now.

You needn't worry about the way Europeans see the US government. Everybody here knows Americans are as sick as everyone else of Bush and his cronies. And please don't buy the "hate" nonsense - that's precisely what the neocons want Americans to believe.  Yeah sure

Whatever happened to "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself"?

Quoting Stratosphere (Reply 2):
our borders are as porous as they have ever been.

 yes  And while Europeans stand in line for their US visas, any Mexican who can swim and run just waltzes right in.


User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39852 posts, RR: 74
Reply 4, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2154 times:



Quoting Toast (Reply 3):
any Mexican who can swim and run just waltzes right in.

It's easier to swim the Rio Grande than it is to swim across the Atlantic Ocean.
If the Bering Sea wasn't so forbidding, we'd have immigration problems from Russia.

This 'clap-down' is just another part of a long series of dumb decisions by the Bush administration. I can't wait for him to be gone.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21442 posts, RR: 54
Reply 5, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2146 times:



Quoting Toast (Reply 3):
You needn't worry about the way Europeans see the US government. Everybody here knows Americans are as sick as everyone else of Bush and his cronies. And please don't buy the "hate" nonsense - that's precisely what the neocons want Americans to believe.

 checkmark 

Quoting Toast (Reply 3):
Whatever happened to "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself"?

There's of course plenty of danger in life - but obsessive paranoia is just not a viable remedy.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21562 posts, RR: 55
Reply 6, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2143 times:

allowing armed guards on all flights from Europe to America by US airlines.

I can't say I have a problem with this one. It's only for US airlines, and to be perfectly honest I'm surprised that they weren't doing it already.

But all the other measures make little sense when weighed against the extra costs and hassles involved. The US might have a case for desiring their own security measures if they were measurably better than those of Europe, but we know that DHS and TSA are a lot of show and very little substance. Hopefully both sides will realize that there is nothing to be gained from screwing around with the transatlantic air travel business and leave things as they are.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineToast From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2128 times:



Quoting Superfly (Reply 4):
If the Bering Sea wasn't so forbidding, we'd have immigration problems from Russia.

Not while ANCflyer is up there Big grin


User currently offlineStratosphere From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1651 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2021 times:



Quoting Toast (Reply 3):
Everybody here knows Americans are as sick as everyone else of Bush and his cronies.

So I guess I will treasure my 1979 trip to Germany, Luxembourg, and Austria and end it at that. I guess I am not welcome there anymore. I can spend my money here I guess since we are hated everywhere now.



NWA THE TRUE EVIL EMPIRE
User currently offlineLobster From Germany, joined Oct 2008, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2015 times:

I have to say the news coming out of Washington these days disgusts me more and more.

User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21442 posts, RR: 54
Reply 10, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2004 times:



Quoting Stratosphere (Reply 8):
Quoting Toast (Reply 3):
Everybody here knows Americans are as sick as everyone else of Bush and his cronies.

So I guess I will treasure my 1979 trip to Germany, Luxembourg, and Austria and end it at that. I guess I am not welcome there anymore. I can spend my money here I guess since we are hated everywhere now.

"we" = Bush cronies? In that case you might actually have a point, although limited to people brashly advocating the idiocies of this administration.

Americans, on the other hand, are most certainly not hated over here!


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6186 posts, RR: 31
Reply 11, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 1990 times:
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The Bush admin. will be gone in less than a year. Presumably, negotiations with the EU on the measures proposed will take more time than that. Especially since all the controversial points proposed are just part of an MOU. So I believe it is all political posturing, to gain more voters for the coming elections.

Some of those points don't seem logical to me. I don't need a VISA for the US, but I fail to see how anybody driving me to the airport for a flight to the US will voluntarily relinquish info. to American authorities just for the "priviledge" of carrying my bags.



MGGS
User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12490 posts, RR: 46
Reply 12, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1959 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
It's only for US airlines, and to be perfectly honest I'm surprised that they weren't doing it already.

Well, unless the armed marshal arrives on the flight from the US, stays on the plane, and immediately returns to the US, we might have some serious issues with a small army of armed foreigners "wandering our streets".

What would the US Government's reaction be if the EU insisted on EU armed marshals on all flights from the US?



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineOHLHD From Finland, joined Dec 2004, 3962 posts, RR: 25
Reply 13, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1953 times:

More restrictions for EC people will result in less EC people going to the States. The USA is hurting itself more and more.

One can only hope that the next administration is not as dumb as the current one.


User currently offlineBabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1950 times:

That may not be such a bad thing. There are currently too many airlines operating from Europe to US mainland and what concerns me is that these are selling cut price tickets.

If it was a real market, these airlines should increasing their fares and generating a greater yield. I'm also concerned at the amount of carbon emissions these aircraft are generating.

There's no such thing as a negative...as Nietzche said.


User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 15, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1945 times:



Quoting Babybus (Reply 14):
If it was a real market, these airlines should increasing their fares and generating a greater yield.

How do you work that out? Real competition in a real market results in the lowest yields and lowest prices that that market can bear.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13078 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1923 times:

Just as a follow up as to why the Bush Administration is asking for these policies. A recent comment by the Director of Homeland Security noted the fear of al-Queda using EC nationals who are allied to their perverse cause taking advantage of the visa waiver program as to EC and other countries to get into the USA and commit a mass terror act. The 2006 in flight liquid bomb fears mostly involved UK nationals. You had the attack at Glasgow airport last year by UK residents and citizens as well as other Islamic based terrorist acts involving EC nationals in the EC.

Part of this tactic is to intimidate and discourage potential terrorists from entering the USA. Another part is to make it look like to the American public that their government is doing something that looks and sounds like it will work to keep terrorists out. As another poster noted, the Bush Administration will be gone in a year and hopefully the EC will fight extreme and practically useless policies that interfere with EC human and privacy rights as well as police jurisdiction and handgun possession. We know these proposals have serious problems to them as well as being only minimally effective. It is like trying to keep out Communists from coming into the USA back in the 1950's to the 1970's. Hopefully a new Administration will take more balanced, reasoned, effective and cost reasonable approaches to keep out potential terrorists including changing political and military policies in the Islamic world.


User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 17, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 1911 times:



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 16):
the fear of al-Queda using EC nationals who are allied to their perverse cause taking advantage of the visa waiver program as to EC and other countries to get into the USA and commit a mass terror act. The 2006 in flight liquid bomb fears mostly involved UK nationals. You had the attack at Glasgow airport last year by UK residents and citizens as well as other Islamic based terrorist acts involving EC nationals in the EC.

That IS a legitimate concern, of course. It remains true that an attack on the USA would be fairly high up on the list of priorities!



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineBHXFAOTIPYYC From Portugal, joined Jun 2005, 1644 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 1899 times:

It's not EU wide, because 12 of the 27 still need visas anyway.


Quoting Toast (Reply 1):
I would need to surrender more private (and very intimate) data than I have in my entire life

My passport is old and not machine readable so I thought I'd get a visa instead.... until I read through the visa application forms which amongst many other questions require you to list exactly when and where you've visited in the last 10 years. Am I supposed to include an evening trip to see FC Seville play when I was in Spain for about 4 hours? Needless to say I'll be getting a new passport instead.

Transatlantic trade is worth billions and I don't think when it comes down to it this will go through.

Quoting Banco (Reply 15):
police jurisdiction and handgun possession.

I'm sure the Americans would love to be lectured about that !

Why not do the Australian ETA system? I think it would be a good compromise.



Breakfast in BHX, lunch in FAO, dinner in TIP, baggage in YYC.
User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 19, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1884 times:



Quoting BHXFAOTIPYYC (Reply 18):
Quoting Banco (Reply 15):
police jurisdiction and handgun possession.

I'm sure the Americans would love to be lectured about that !

I'm sure they would - but you've quoted the wrong person. It wasn't me that said it, it was LTBEWR - an American!



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineBHXFAOTIPYYC From Portugal, joined Jun 2005, 1644 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1876 times:



Quoting Banco (Reply 19):
It wasn't me that said it, it was LTBEWR - an American

Weird, I clicked "selected text quoted". Honest.



Breakfast in BHX, lunch in FAO, dinner in TIP, baggage in YYC.
User currently offlineFrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3744 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1827 times:



Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
I can't say I have a problem with this one. It's only for US airlines,

But how can it be effective if only some airlines do it?



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
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