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Australians, Opinions On 'Sorry Day?'  
User currently offlineQFA380 From Australia, joined Jul 2005, 2059 posts, RR: 1
Posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3687 times:

Well tomorrow Kevin Rudd will say sorry to the Aboriginals of Australia for the Stolen Generation during the 20th Century.

I personally believe this is a terrible idea, with all the things we give them they still show us no respect and take everything they're given for granted. As if these 1/8th Aboriginals who have grown up in a white society, look nothing like Aboriginals and probably don't even know what the stolen generation was, deserve an apology. What infuriated me the most was tonight on 7 News. The guy said, 'Sorry, one small word that will mean alot. Another small word the Aboriginal people want to hear, is compensation.' Now red flag, they get hundreds of millions of dollars, given jobs, university positions, land, housing and they still want compensation....

We need a hardline approach to Aboriginals, no pussy footing around like we've been doing for the last 30 years.

101 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBill142 From Australia, joined Aug 2004, 8434 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 3663 times:

We've been royally duped. Kevin Rudd has deceived the nation by not revealing his intention to do this during the election campaign. I'm convinced that if he had done this, he would not be in power today. Not because Australians, myself included, think that what happened was right, far from it. But because of the admission of liability and the claims for compensation that are bound to follow.

The public coffers are open for a free-for-all. The cost cutting being done by labor is for a slush fund to pay out the stolen generation, not to ease inflation like we've been lead to believe. Like cutting $400 million is going to do much.

I would be interested to see what happened in Canada after they said sorry. Any Canadians care to shed some light?


User currently offline9VSRH From Australia, joined Apr 2005, 132 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 3659 times:

The things aboriginal people went through during the time of the early-mid part of the 20th Century was atrocious and inhumane. I believe that sorry is one way we can solidly put things behind us. On the other hand, compensation and priorities indigenous people get over the every-day Australian is in some cases, quite ridiculous. Just because they have relatives who are Aborigines. If Ruddy and his Kevin07 mob want to stop the rift between the aboriginal people and stock standard Australians, there should be no compensation, no priorities in Unis, or anything of that sort. Possibly only in situations where the person may be in dire need of help, ie, to go to recieve basic education. Everything else should be their own choice, like every other Australian.

User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21353 posts, RR: 54
Reply 3, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3652 times:



Quoting Bill142 (Reply 1):
Not because Australians, myself included, think that what happened was right, far from it. But because of the admission of liability and the claims for compensation that are bound to follow.

What you two appear to be saying is that (according to my information) horrible human rights abuses in the past should simply be shrugged off because once you did the morally upstanding thing and actually expressed your compassion and collective apologies you feared financial implications.

What you are saying could easily be expanded on Germany looking the other way and shrugging off the Holocaust just because there could have been financially inconvenient repercussions.

And I must say I would indeed be ashamed of my country if that was the case, and I am in fact ashamed for those cases where victims have been treated less than properly even so.


I am aware of the different magnitude of the two issues, but the fundamental moral aspects appear to be similar enough.


User currently offline9VSRH From Australia, joined Apr 2005, 132 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3642 times:

Klaus, I think you are unaware of the issue with many aboriginal people in Australia. The Aborigines have been compensated for some time now, trying to give them a better chance in life etc. Despite what was done by the Australian government, tens of thousands of Aboriginals squander this money with some serious substance abuse, whether it be with alcohol, sniffing petrol or other drugs, which has resulted in a lot of violence, murders, rapes, etc.

What is the point in giving this money, when the majority will spend it on something that will only dig them further into a hole? It may be unfortunate for many who need this money, but when tax payers money is going towards buying illicit substances and alcohol, is the government really spending the money on the right sorts of things?

[Edited 2008-02-12 02:09:41]

User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21353 posts, RR: 54
Reply 5, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3606 times:



Quoting 9VSRH (Reply 4):
Klaus, I think you are unaware of the issue with many aboriginal people in Australia. The Aborigines have been compensated for some time now, trying to give them a better chance in life etc. Despite what was done by the Australian government, tens of thousands of Aboriginals squander this money with some serious substance abuse, whether it be with alcohol, sniffing petrol or other drugs, which has resulted in a lot of violence, murders, rapes, etc.

That has absolutely nothing to do with the entirely moral question whether or not the majority should collectively apologize for human rights abuses collectively committed in their name against a minority.

The social situation of many aboriginal australians is probably an issue as well, but it is a separate one.


User currently offlinePilotdude09 From Australia, joined May 2005, 1777 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3589 times:

It is the biggest crock of shit if there ever was one. No one in the current government was responsible and when he says "We" say sorry it better not be on behalf of Australia because i most certainly do not say sorry. What was it only 2 in 5 people in WA thought there should be an apology and that says something for this state.

Look until you live with them and go to a community you will never ever understand how bad they really are..........

Most of the people who were effected are dead, you look at the ones who were removed many become very successful people, they seem to forget thats because of being removed.

Had a good email today which basically outlines the whole of what they get:

Quote:

AUSTRALIAN APOLOGY TO THE ABORIGINAL POPULATION





We apologise for giving you doctors and free medical care, which allows you to survive and multiply so that you can demand apologies.



We apologise for helping you to read and teaching you the English language and thus we opened up to you the entire European civilisation, thought and enterprise.



We feel that we must apologise for building hundreds of homes for you, which you have vandalised and destroyed.



We apologise for giving you law and order which has helped prevent you from slaughtering one another and using the unfortunate for food purposes.



We apologise for developing large farms and properties, which today feed you people, where before, you had the benefits of living off the land and starving during droughts.



We apologise for providing you with warm clothing made of fabric to replace that animal skins you used before.



We apologise for building roads and railway tracks between cities and building cars so that you no longer have to walk over harsh terrain.



We apologise for paying off your vehicle when you fail to pay the installments



We apologise for giving you free travel anywhere, whenever.



We apologise for giving each and every member of your family $100.00 and free travel to attend an aboriginal funeral.



We apologise for not charging you rent on any lands when white people have to pay.



We apologise for giving you interest free loans.



We apologise for developing oil wells and minerals, including gold and diamonds which you never used and had no idea of their value.



We apologise for developing Ayers rock and Kakadu, and handing them over to you so that you get all the money.



We apologise for allowing taxpayers money paid towards daughters’ wedding ($8,000.00 each daughter)



We apologise for giving you $1.7 billion per year for your 250,000 people, which is $48,000.00 per aboriginal man, woman and child.



We apologise for working hard to pay taxes that finance your welfare, medical care, education, etc to the tune of $1.2 billion each year.



We apologise for you having to approach the aboriginal affairs department to verify the above figures. For the trouble you will have identifying the “uncle toms” in your own community who are getting richer and leaving some of you living in squalor and poverty.



We do apologise. We really do.



We humbly beg your forgiveness for all the above sins.

We are only too happy to take back all the above and return you to the paradise of the “outback”, whenever you are ready.


EVERY single detail above is 100% correct and yet they complain they get nothing!!!!

[Edited 2008-02-12 05:17:48]


Qantas, Still calling Australia Home.........
User currently offlineCupraIbiza From Australia, joined Feb 2007, 836 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3573 times:

The Australian Government is apologising to the Aboriginal people for the "Stolen Generation". Vast amounts of Aboriginal children were removed from their families on purely racist reasons.

The media generally does not deviate from this line.

However I have heard one journalist (Andrew Bolt) ask various Aboriginal leaders to name 10 people who are from the "Stolen Generation".

He has asked this at least 3 times that I know of and has never been answered.

No one else in the mainstream media seems to be asking the question.

Now I will be the first to admit that Bolt can be a bit of a loon. But I like that he is always willing to question the common thought. That is what I want the media to do. Shed as much light on the debate as possible.

Did this "Stolen generation" actually happen? I don't know. If it did, I too would love at least 10 names. Then my position gets slightly complicated.

I dont agree that we should apologise. But I think we still should. It is obviously an important issue that needs to be addressed and this is an important first step.

I would however ask this. All those Aboriginal groups that have devoted so much time and energy into lobbying government and the media for "the apology" should now in return put equal energy and effort into fixing the problems in Aboriginal communities.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 3):
I am aware of the different magnitude of the two issues, but the fundamental moral aspects appear to be similar enough.

The fundamental moral aspects are not even in the same universe let alone ball park



Everyday is a gift…… but why does it have to be a pair of socks?
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21353 posts, RR: 54
Reply 8, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3553 times:



Quoting CupraIbiza (Reply 7):
The fundamental moral aspects are not even in the same universe let alone ball park

Collective persecution and collective human rights abuses require a formal collective acknowledgment. That applies to every situation of that kind alike.


User currently offlineScarletHarlot From Canada, joined Jul 2003, 4673 posts, RR: 56
Reply 9, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3533 times:

There is something very ugly about this thread. Thousands of people in a minority, disadvantaged group in Australia continue to suffer from a substandard life and the only thing said in this thread by Australians is how they resent their government apologizing for an atrocity committed against this group of people in the past?

Here is what happened in Canada. We pushed our First Nations people off their productive land, through force and/or conniving, and settled them in ridiculously unproductive, isolated land. We took away their means of making a living for themselves. We considered them to be less than human and denied them the basic rights that non-Native Canadians had. We gave them nothing and then pointed, laughed and sneered when they were unable to make anything of themselves, and they descended into a cycle of drink and abuse. Now we have a community that has lived with this hopelessness for generations. THIS IS ALL THEY KNOW because this is what we forced them to do. And don't just say "they could move into the city and make something of themselves". With what money? With what support system? I moved from my small Canadian city in Northern Ontario to southern Ontario and even with sufficient funds and an excellent support system it was still a culture shock for me. Now imagine that you have no money, you've grown up in the middle of nowhere, your role models are beaten down, alcoholic, sick, and without hope because that's how their parents were...that's how their grandparents were...that's how their great-grandparents were. It takes a very special, strong person to escape that.

Do I say sorry for the mistakes of past Canadian governments? You bet I do. And by the way, my family has only been in Canada since about 1920. My ancestors had nothing to do with it. But I am Canadian and so I share in the sorrow and responsibility for the situation - and more timely, how we try to make it right.

Canada is a wealthy country and we owe it to our First Nations peoples to try to right the mistakes of past Canadians by helping in any way we can. Does this mean that we should support them with funds? Absolutely. Compensation for past injustices? Look up "residential schools" and see why compensation is well deserved. We screwed up people so badly that they lost all faith and hope in themselves. Damned straight we owe them something. Are we doing everything correctly? Hell no. If we were, the situation on so many reserves would not be so sad and hopeless. Look up Davis Inlet for a case where the government tried to do the right thing and it still didn't work. But we have to keep trying. There are signs of hope. Maybe one day we can get it right and help First Nations people to live again as equals in Canadian society.

The day when I hear Canadians stop their bitching about "Natives" will be a very good one. I'm really saddened to see the anger on this thread from Australians toward Aborigines. Your government saying "sorry" is an excellent first step. I hope it represents the thoughts of the majority of Australians - but sadly, I suspect it does not.



But that was when I ruled the world
User currently offlineClassicLover From Ireland, joined Mar 2004, 4602 posts, RR: 24
Reply 10, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3511 times:

Yes well, welcome to the fact that most Australians are inherently racist and xenophobic. Australians like to paint themselves as embracing to all cultures due to their multicultural country, but behind the scenes they are as racist and xenophobic as any other culture is. It's human nature after all.

Before the post is considered flamebait, I am from Australia.

Regarding the whole sorry thing, I for one am happy that it is going ahead. I think it needs to be said though, both because it was a bad period in our history, and also to shut up all the people who continually whine about wanting a sorry.

To the Government's credit, they did deliberately word the whole "sorry" thing to do their best not to leave themselves open to compensation claims. So really, I think what's done is done and it's time to move on.... so hooray for the apology to close that particular chapter in Australia's history.



I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6661 posts, RR: 35
Reply 11, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3502 times:



Quoting Klaus (Reply 5):
That has absolutely nothing to do with the entirely moral question whether or not the majority should collectively apologize for human rights abuses collectively committed in their name against a minority.

But when is enough?

At what point does Anglo guilt stop?

Aussies are sick and tired of having to pay for the sins of the fathers to the Aboriginals...

Canadians are sick and tired of the moral flaggelation for the sins of their fathers to First Nations people...

Americans are sick and tired of the guilt about slavery against blacks....

When does it end?

Quoting Pilotdude09 (Reply 6):
Had a good email today which basically outlines the whole of what they get:

That's brilliant.


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21353 posts, RR: 54
Reply 12, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3485 times:

Quoting Slider (Reply 11):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 5):
That has absolutely nothing to do with the entirely moral question whether or not the majority should collectively apologize for human rights abuses collectively committed in their name against a minority.

But when is enough?

Once would already be a good start, apology-wise.

Quoting Slider (Reply 11):
At what point does Anglo guilt stop?

Aussies are sick and tired of having to pay for the sins of the fathers to the Aboriginals...

Canadians are sick and tired of the moral flaggelation for the sins of their fathers to First Nations people...

Americans are sick and tired of the guilt about slavery against blacks....

When does it end?

It will probably warm your heart to hear that there are some people in Germany as well who'd love nothing more than to just forget about the Holocaust.

After all, why even remember something they themselves didn't do and would rather forget?

Answer: Decency isn't always convenient.

Quoting Slider (Reply 11):
That's brilliant.

Completely indefensible would be more like it.

[Edited 2008-02-12 12:11:07]

User currently offlineQFA380 From Australia, joined Jul 2005, 2059 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3460 times:



Quoting ScarletHarlot (Reply 9):
Here is what happened in Canada. We pushed our First Nations people off their productive land, through force and/or conniving, and settled them in ridiculously unproductive, isolated land. We took away their means of making a living for themselves. We considered them to be less than human and denied them the basic rights that non-Native Canadians had. We gave them nothing and then pointed, laughed and sneered when they were unable to make anything of themselves, and they descended into a cycle of drink and abuse. Now we have a community that has lived with this hopelessness for generations. THIS IS ALL THEY KNOW because this is what we forced them to do.

I think you should read Pilotdude09's post. What we have done to the Aboriginals is so far away from what the Candians did. We took them off their unproductive land, gave them good land. We have given them so many ways to earn money, can imagine going to university/college for free? Aboriginals have many more rights than we Anglo-Australians, we encouraged them to earn money and live themselves yet they still descended into alcohol abuse and violence. They chose to do this themselves...

The parents of the stolen generation were alcoholics, last year we had to do an excursion to listen to some Aboriginals talk about stuff. They said often fathers would beat and kill their own family. Noone cries foul these days when the Department of Community Services takes a child away from abusive parents, yet for the Aboriginals they must have preferred to stay with their parents. There were as many or more kids saved and given the chance for a great future.

The average lifespan is roughly 20 years less than the Anglo age. Even though many of them are given free medical care, free housing.

Aboriginals commit so many crimes yet nobody cares, a few years ago my mum had her car stolen by some Aboriginals, she had just filled it with petrol had gone in to pay and they stole it. Took it out into the bush, and burnt it. The cops caught them , they were 12, 13 and 14 years old, this was the 8th time they had been caught for the same offence and they were out on bail 6 hours later!

Quoting Klaus (Reply 12):
Quoting Slider (Reply 11):
That's brilliant.

Completely indefensible would be more like it.

I beg to differ, Australia should hold a referendum on wether or not Aboriginals should be treated eqaully to other Australians. Which of course would mean the abolishment of the Department of Aboriginals Affairs. I don't see any Department of Afghani Affairs, after all they were here before we were, they should be treated better.

Equality is all I'm after, the Aborignals say the want equality and then say so give us more compensation, Thats not how it works sunshine....


User currently offlineScarletHarlot From Canada, joined Jul 2003, 4673 posts, RR: 56
Reply 14, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3441 times:



Quoting QFA380 (Reply 13):
I think you should read Pilotdude09's post. What we have done to the Aboriginals is so far away from what the Candians did. We took them off their unproductive land, gave them good land. We have given them so many ways to earn money, can imagine going to university/college for free? Aboriginals have many more rights than we Anglo-Australians, we encouraged them to earn money and live themselves yet they still descended into alcohol abuse and violence. They chose to do this themselves...

Please read my post again. While there are differences between what happened to the Aborigines in Australia and the First Nations peoples in Canada, there are also similarities. Are you suggesting that Aborigines have always been given advantages such as free medical care and university? Ever since Australia was settled by Europeans? Is it not true that Aborigines were for generations treated as less than human, hunted by Europeans, and enslaved?

Nobody chooses to live in alcohol abuse and violence. It often happens because of past family situation. If you take a proud family, impoverish them, tell them that they're less than human, and kill some of them, take away their kids, beat them down for generations, and then all of a sudden throw money at them and tell them to pick themselves up out of the gutter - while still demonstrating a lack of respect for them - do you really think that this family can quickly become prosperous again? Consider that this family lives in an area where there are many other families like them. There is a community feeling of hopelessness, ill health, substance abuse, domestic violence. How easy is it to escape this?



But that was when I ruled the world
User currently offlineCupraIbiza From Australia, joined Feb 2007, 836 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3439 times:



Quoting ScarletHarlot (Reply 9):
There is something very ugly about this thread. Thousands of people in a minority, disadvantaged group in Australia continue to suffer from a substandard life and the only thing said in this thread by Australians is how they resent their government apologizing for an atrocity committed against this group of people in the past?

Yes the Aborigines continue to suffer. but why? No one can answer it and no one can solve it. KRudd has picked the easy way out. Its not hard to stand up and read a speech.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 8):
Collective persecution and collective human rights abuses require a formal collective acknowledgment. That applies to every situation of that kind alike.

Thats sounds nice but means nothing to me.

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 10):
and also to shut up all the people who continually whine about wanting a sorry.

I said this in a earlier post. I dont agree with the apology but I also think it should be done so we can move on and get to the serious work of solving the Aboriginal peoples plight

Quoting ScarletHarlot (Reply 9):
this thread by Australians is how they resent their government apologizing for an atrocity committed against this group of people in the past?

What attocity are you speaking of? You mean the one where Aboriginal children who were being abused were taken from their families and clothed and fed and sent to school. You mean that attrocity? Apprently "many thousands" were taken from their families for purely racist reasons. I and Andrew Bolt are still waiting for the names of at least 10 people who were stolen purely for rascist reasons.

I am quite open anout this subject but I reject the term attrocity

Quoting Klaus (Reply 12):
t will probably warm your heart to hear that there are some people in Germany as well who'd love nothing more than to just forget about the Holocaust.

There is no way the Holocaust should even be thought about being mentioned in this discussion.



Everyday is a gift…… but why does it have to be a pair of socks?
User currently offlineCaptOveur From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3436 times:



Quoting 9VSRH (Reply 4):
The Aborigines have been compensated for some time now, trying to give them a better chance in life etc. Despite what was done by the Australian government, tens of thousands of Aboriginals squander this money with some serious substance abuse, whether it be with alcohol, sniffing petrol or other drugs, which has resulted in a lot of violence, murders, rapes, etc.

This sounds so much like the US it isn't even funny.


User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6661 posts, RR: 35
Reply 17, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3413 times:



Quoting Klaus (Reply 12):

Once would already be a good start, apology-wise.

Nothing says I'm sorry than the litany of free stuff that was cited above.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 12):
It will probably warm your heart to hear that there are some people in Germany as well who'd love nothing more than to just forget about the Holocaust.

After all, why even remember something they themselves didn't do and would rather forget?

Answer: Decency isn't always convenient.

Wow, this is apples and freaking waterlemons comparison. No one's going to forget mass genocide.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 12):
Completely indefensible would be more like it.

You're right- free housing, education, land, unlimited government handouts and all that IS completely indefensible.

Quoting CupraIbiza (Reply 15):
There is no way the Holocaust should even be thought about being mentioned in this discussion.

I totally agree...


User currently offlineQANTAS077 From Australia, joined Jan 2004, 5825 posts, RR: 41
Reply 18, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3416 times:

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 1):
We've been royally duped. Kevin Rudd has deceived the nation by not revealing his intention to do this during the election campaign.

he did, get out of the rock you've been living under!

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 1):
But because of the admission of liability and the claims for compensation that are bound to follow.

good, those affected deserve compensation, deal with it...if it were your family affected you'd be banging on the door for compensation too.

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 1):
The public coffers are open for a free-for-all. The cost cutting being done by labor is for a slush fund to pay out the stolen generation, not to ease inflation like we've been lead to believe. Like cutting $400 million is going to do much.

well it beats middle class welfare that Howard was all for, right? of course middle class welfare doesn't add to inflation?

Quoting QFA380 (Thread starter):
We need a hardline approach to Aboriginals, no pussy footing around like we've been doing for the last 30 years.

when you've been on the planet longer than your years then I might take notice of this garbage...do yourself a favour and read a little of our history before commenting.

Quoting QFA380 (Thread starter):
with all the things we give them they still show us no respect and take everything they're given for granted.

what have we given them? what have you given them personally? get off your high horse and realise that this is NOT our land, it was inhabited long before white man ever set foot here, now tell me again, what is it that you've given the Aboriginal people?

Quoting QFA380 (Thread starter):
As if these 1/8th Aboriginals who have grown up in a white society, look nothing like Aboriginals and probably don't even know what the stolen generation was, deserve an apology. What infuriated me the most was tonight on 7 News. The guy said, 'Sorry, one small word that will mean alot. Another small word the Aboriginal people want to hear, is compensation.' Now red flag, they get hundreds of millions of dollars, given jobs, university positions, land, housing and they still want compensation....

fool, the apology is directed at those directly affected by this GOVERNMENT POLICY of times gone by.

do me a favour and don't post about this again, I might rip you apart in my next reply, you sound xenophobic and racist and like a jingoistic nationalist. Your type frighten the hell out of me.

Quoting CupraIbiza (Reply 15):
No one can answer it and no one can solve it.

child abuse...there's an answer for you? or you forgotten that this occurs to our black folk?

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 13):
What we have done to the Aboriginals is so far away from what the Candians did. We took them off their unproductive land, gave them good land.

no, we took them from their family and gave them to white families..that was the government policy.

Quoting CupraIbiza (Reply 15):
You mean the one where Aboriginal children who were being abused were taken from their families and clothed and fed and sent to school.

don't simplify it with bullshit like this, for the most part they were taken because of their aboriginality, perhaps you missed Fred Chaney on the 730 report last night?

here is his comments...

FRED CHANEY: Well I don't think there's any doubt that the basis of removal was race. I mean again, I had direct personal experience of that where I was actually able to prevent the removal of six children because the mother went and got a lawyer. And it was, I was told the first time one had been defended when I got it through the court. There was no question of neglect in that case. And I said, "Why were you doing this?" And they said, "There are too many Aboriginals in East Perth and we're moving them out." Now I mean what a disgusting statement.

Quoting CupraIbiza (Reply 15):
I and Andrew Bolt are still waiting for the names of at least 10 people who were stolen purely for rascist reasons.

so where's the list of those removed because of abuse that was proven?

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 13):
The parents of the stolen generation were alcoholics

prove it...all of it, or shut it!

Quoting QFA380 (Thread starter):
with all the things we give them they still show us no respect and take everything they're given for granted.

god you speak like there are NO good Aboriginals in this country who've made it on their own...ffs, shut it already!

Quoting Pilotdude09 (Reply 6):
No one in the current government was responsible and when he says "We" say sorry it better not be on behalf of Australia because i most certainly do not say sorry.

but it was still previous GOVERNMENT POLICY to remove children from their families...its about time a government stood up and took responsibility for this appalling policy.

[Edited 2008-02-12 14:51:48]


a true friend is someone who sees the pain in your eyes, while everyone else believes the smile on your face.
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21353 posts, RR: 54
Reply 19, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3412 times:



Quoting CupraIbiza (Reply 15):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 8):
Collective persecution and collective human rights abuses require a formal collective acknowledgment. That applies to every situation of that kind alike.

Thats sounds nice but means nothing to me.

I've noticed.

Quoting CupraIbiza (Reply 15):
There is no way the Holocaust should even be thought about being mentioned in this discussion.

Morally responsible handling of past injustice is the issue. And as disparate as the magnitudes undoubtedly were, the moral issues of how modern democracies should face their less than proud moments from the past are quite similar. Or is one of them less modern or less democratic today?

If we're only doing the right thing as long as it's cheap and convenient, it stops being morally relevant.


User currently offlineScarletHarlot From Canada, joined Jul 2003, 4673 posts, RR: 56
Reply 20, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3411 times:



Quoting CupraIbiza (Reply 15):
What attocity are you speaking of? You mean the one where Aboriginal children who were being abused were taken from their families and clothed and fed and sent to school. You mean that attrocity?

Are you seriously defending the practice of taking the Aboriginal children? It wasn't only children who were abused who were taken. They weren't all sent to happy happy amusement parks. They were also sent out to work, were beaten and sexually abused by those who were supposed to care from them.

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/IndigLRes/stolen/stolen08.html

As Brisbane's Telegraph newspaper reported in May 1937,

Mr Neville [the Chief Protector of WA] holds the view that within one hundred years the pure black will be extinct. But the half-caste problem was increasing every year. Therefore their idea was to keep the pure blacks segregated and absorb the half-castes into the white population. Sixty years ago, he said, there were over 60,000 full-blooded natives in Western Australia. Today there are only 20,000. In time there would be none. Perhaps it would take one hundred years, perhaps longer, but the race was dying. The pure blooded Aboriginal was not a quick breeder. On the other hand the half-caste was. In Western Australia there were half-caste families of twenty and upwards. That showed the magnitude of the problem (quoted by Buti 1995 on page 35).

In Neville's view, skin colour was the key to absorption. Children with lighter skin colour would automatically be accepted into non-Indigenous society and lose their Aboriginal identity.

Assuming the theory to be correct, argument in government circles centred around the optimum age for forced removal. At a Royal Commission in South Australia in 1913 'experts' disagreed whether children should be removed at birth or about two years old.

The 'protectionist' legislation was generally used in preference to the general child welfare legislation to remove Indigenous children. That way government officials acting under the authority of the Chief Protector or the Board could simply order the removal of an Indigenous child without having to establish to a court's satisfaction that the child was neglected.


......

However the notion that people forced off the reserves would merge with the non-Indigenous population took no account of the discrimination they faced. Unable to find work and denied the social security benefits that non-Indigenous people were granted as of right, they lived in 'shanty' towns near the reserves or on the edges of non-Indigenous settlement.

.....

Implicit in the assimilation policy was the idea current among non-Indigenous people that there was nothing of value in Indigenous culture.

Nobody who knows anything about these groups can deny that their members are socially and culturally deprived. What has to be recognized is that the integration of these groups differs in no way from that of the highly integrated groups of economically depressed Europeans found in the slums of any city and in certain rural areas of New South Wales. In other words, these groups are just like groups of poor whites. The policy for them must be one of welfare. Improve their lot so that they can take their place economically and socially in the general community and not merely around the periphery. Once this is done, the break-up of such groups will be rapid (Bell 1964 page 68).


.....

Under the general child welfare law, Indigenous children had to be found to be 'neglected', 'destitute' or 'uncontrollable'. These terms were applied by courts much more readily to Indigenous children than non-Indigenous children as the definitions and interpretations of those terms assumed a non-Indigenous model of child-rearing and regarded poverty as synonymous with neglect. It was not until 1966 that all eligibility restrictions on Indigenous people's receipt of social security benefits were fully lifted. Before that time Indigenous families in need could not rely on the financial support of government which was designed to hold non-Indigenous families together in times of need. Moreover, ongoing surveillance of their lives meant that any deviation from the acceptable non-Indigenous 'norm' came to the notice of the authorities immediately.

From the late 1940s the other jurisdictions followed New South Wales in applying the general child welfare law to Indigenous children while still treating removed Indigenous children differently. State government child welfare practice was marked more by continuity than change. The same welfare staff and the same police who had previously removed children from their families simply because they were Aboriginal now utilised the neglect procedures to remove just as many Aboriginal children from their families. 'Aboriginal parents were left on the margins of Australian society while attempts were made to absorb their children into non-Aboriginal society' (Armitage 1995 page 67).

The children were still being removed in bulk, but it wasn't because they were part white. They had social workers that'd go around from house to house and look in the cupboards and things like that and they'd say the children were neglected (Molly Dyer evidence 219, speaking of the practice of the Victorian Aborigines Welfare Board in the 1950s).
At the third Native Welfare Conference held in 1951 the newly appointed federal Minister for Territories, Paul Hasluck, vigorously propounded the benefits to Aboriginal people of assimilation and urged greater consistency in practice between all the States and the Northern Territory. Hasluck pointed out that Australia's treatment of its Indigenous people made a mockery of its promotion of human rights at the international level (Hasluck 1953 page 9).

The conference agreed that assimilation was the aim of 'native welfare measures'.

Assimilation means, in practical terms, that, in the course of time, it is expected that all persons of aboriginal blood or mixed blood in Australia will live like other white Australians do (Hasluck 1953 page 16).
During the 1950s and 1960s even greater numbers of Indigenous children were removed from their families to advance the cause of assimilation. Not only were they removed for alleged neglect, they were removed to attend school in distant places, to receive medical treatment and to be adopted out at birth.


Note the bolded section. The government took away the Aborigine kids because their families were poor - but Aborigine families didn't have access to the same social benefits as white families so of course they were more likely to be poor!

Quoting ScarletHarlot (Reply 9):
We considered them to be less than human and denied them the basic rights that non-Native Canadians had. We gave them nothing and then pointed, laughed and sneered when they were unable to make anything of themselves, and they descended into a cycle of drink and abuse. Now we have a community that has lived with this hopelessness for generations.

It sounds like the Aborigines might have had a much more similar experience to the Canadian First Nations peoples than might be thought at first.

This removal of Aboriginal kids continued until the 1960s! So today you have people age 50 who were subject to this - who were taken away from their families for made-up reasons - were told that their families were dead or no longer wanted them - were sent out to work for foster families and subject to higher rates of sexual and physical abuse - were unable to assimilate. This same report suggests that 10% - 50% of children were removed. All because of a government and a country that subjected the Aboriginal population to different standards of human rights than the non-Aboriginal population.

How can a family, a society, an ethnicity benefit from and prosper under such a terrible, and I will use the word, atrocity?

Quoting CupraIbiza (Reply 15):
I and Andrew Bolt are still waiting for the names of at least 10 people who were stolen purely for rascist reasons.

You will never get this. The records are not there. But you cannot tell me that out of the thousands of kids who were removed, all but ten were because they were being abused.

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/IndigLRes/stolen/stolen17.html

Most of us girls were thinking white in the head but were feeling black inside. We weren't black or white. We were a very lonely, lost and sad displaced group of people. We were taught to think and act like a white person, but we didn't know how to think and act like an Aboriginal. We didn't know anything about our culture. We were completely brainwashed to think only like a white person. When they went to mix in white society, they found they were not accepted (because) they were Aboriginal. When they went and mixed with Aborigines, some found they couldn't identify with them either, because they had too much white ways in them. So that they were neither black nor white. They were simply a lost generation of children. I know. I was one of them.

Confidential submission 617, New South Wales: woman removed at 8 years with her 3 sisters in the 1940s; placed in Cootamundra Girls' Home.



But that was when I ruled the world
User currently offlineScarletHarlot From Canada, joined Jul 2003, 4673 posts, RR: 56
Reply 21, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3388 times:

Not an atrocity...read the following and tell me that wide ranging, government sanctioned sexual, physical and emotional abuse is not an atrocity and does not deserve someone saying that they're sorry!!!

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/IndigLRes/stolen/stolen18.html

So I went through foster homes, and I never stayed in one any longer than two months ... Then you'd be moved onto the next place and it went on and on and on. That's one of the main reasons I didn't finish primary school.

Confidential evidence 316, Tasmania.

My mother and brother could speak our language and my father could speak his. I can't speak my language. Aboriginal people weren't allowed to speak their language while white people were around. They had to go out into the bush or talk their lingoes on their own. Aboriginal customs like initiation were not allowed. We could not leave Cherbourg to go to Aboriginal traditional festivals. We could have a corroboree if the Protector issued a permit. It was completely up to him. I never had a chance to learn about my traditional and customary way of life when I was on the reserves.

Confidential submission 110, Queensland: woman removed in the 1940s.

If we got letters, you'd end up with usually 'the weather's fine', 'we love you' and 'from your loving mother' or whatever. We didn't hear or see what was written in between. And that was one way they kept us away from our families. They'd turn around and say to you, 'See, they don't care about you'. Later on, when I left the home, I asked my mother, 'How come you didn't write letters?' She said, 'But we did'. I said, 'Well, we never got them'. We were all rostered to do work and one of the girls was doing Matron's office, and there was all these letters that the girls had written back to the parents and family - the answers were all in the garbage bin. And they were wondering why we didn't write. That was one way they stopped us keeping in contact with our families. Then they had the hide to turn around and say, 'They don't love you. They don't care about you'.

Confidential evidence 450, New South Wales: woman removed at 2 years in the 1940s, first to Bomaderry Children's Home, then to Cootamundra Girls' Home; now working to assist former Cootamundra inmates.

We were told our mother was an alcoholic and that she was a prostitute and she didn't care about us. They [foster family] used to warn us that when we got older we'd have to watch it because we'd turn into sluts and alcoholics, so we had to be very careful. If you were white you didn't have that dirtiness in you ... It was in our breed, in us to be like that.

Confidential evidence 529, New South Wales: woman fostered as a baby in the 1970s.

.....

The physical infrastructure of missions, government institutions and children's homes was often very poor and resources were insufficient to improve them or to keep the children adequately clothed, fed and sheltered. WA's Chief Protector, A O Neville, later described the conditions at the Moore River Settlement in the 1920s (Neville had no control over the Settlement from 1920 until 1926, his jurisdiction being limited to the State's north during that period).

Moore River Settlement had rapidly declined under a brutal indifference. Here 'economy' had taken the form of ignoring maintenance and any improvement of buildings, reducing to a minimum the diet of 'inmates' and doing away with the use of cutlery - the children in the compounds being forced to eat with their hands. The salaries of attendant and teachers had been reduced and anything that was not essential to the rudimentary education available was removed. Even toys, such as plasticine, were removed from the classroom. Unhappiness and the desperate anxiety to locate and rejoin family members led to a sharp increase in absconders and runaways. Punishment was harsh and arbitrary and the 'inmates' feared the Police trackers who patrolled the settlement and hunted down escapees (quoted by Jacobs 1990 on page 123).
Doris Pilkington described the conditions as 'more like a concentration camp than a residential school for Aboriginal children' (Pilkington 1996 page 72).

Young men and women constantly ran away (this was in breach of the Aborigines Act). Not only were they separated from their families and relatives, but they were regimented and locked up like caged animals, locked in their dormitory after supper for the night. They were given severe punishments, including solitary confinements for minor misdeeds (Choo 1989 page 46).

.....

There was no food, nothing. We was all huddled up in a room ... like a little puppy-dog ... on the floor ... Sometimes at night time we'd cry with hunger, no food ... We had to scrounge in the town dump, eating old bread, smashing tomato sauce bottles, licking them. Half of the time the food we got was from the rubbish dump.

Confidential evidence 549, Northern Territory: man removed to Kahlin Compound at 3 years in the 1930s; subsequently placed at The Bungalow.

It's a wonder we all survived with the food we got. For breakfast we got a bit of porridge with saccharine in it and a cup of tea. The porridge was always dry as a bone. Lunch was a plate of soup made out of bones, sheeps' heads and things like that, no vegetables. For dinner we had a slice of bread with jam and a cup of tea. After our dinner we were locked up in a dormitory for the night.

WA woman who lived at Moore River Settlement from 1918 until 1939, quoted by Haebich 1982 on page 59.

In WA even the Chief Protector himself recognised the sufferings of many of the children he had placed 'in service'.

A good home with a kindly mistress is heaven to a coloured girl of the right type, yet failures are often due to the attitude of employers and their families. It does not help matters much to have the children in a family refer to their mother's coloured help as a 'dirty black nigger' or a 'black bitch' - such are amongst the complaints that the girls used to bring to me. One lad told me that when he asked for his wages, the Boss said, 'What does a black -- like you want with money, you ought to be shot' ... I must confess that as regards some of the homes I personally visited, I could not blame the employee, indeed I felt like apologising to him for being the means of placing him in such a position (Neville 1947 page 190).

When I was thirteen I started contract work. I did not ask to go to work. The white officials just told us we had to go to work and they wrote out a contract for us. My first job was on L. Station, Winton. I was employed to do housework but I had to do everything. Looking after Mrs E's invalid mother - including bathing her and taking her to the toilet. I did washing, ironing, house cleaning, cooked and served meals, looked after the yard, chopped wood, milked cows, did bore casing, rod placement, water pumping and did fencing with Mr E. I had to eat my meals from a tin plate and drank from a tin mug, I ate my meals on the wood heap. I was given different food to what the E's ate. Sometimes I was just allowed a couple of eggs - I was often very hungry. I had a room at the end of the shearer's shed (the shed could accommodate up to 24 shearers, during shearing time). It was small, windowless and there was no lighting. I had a wogga for a bed - made out of hessian [stuffed with straw], a bag for cover and a potato bag for a cupboard. I was very nervous there especially coming from the dormitory life where we were either guarded or locked up. I was thirteen at the time Mr E wanted to rape me. I rushed around to his car pulled out the shotgun and instead of shooting him I pushed him in the bore tank. He never tried anything else since. I told Mrs E and she told me that it was a lie, that he wouldn't touch a black person. I told the Superintendent at Cherbourg. He wouldn't believe me.

Confidential submission 110, Queensland: woman removed in the 1940s.



But that was when I ruled the world
User currently offlineCupraIbiza From Australia, joined Feb 2007, 836 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3371 times:



Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 18):
Quoting CupraIbiza (Reply 15):
No one can answer it and no one can solve it.

child abuse...there's an answer for you? or you forgotten that this occurs to our black folk?


and what do we do to fix this?



Everyday is a gift…… but why does it have to be a pair of socks?
User currently offlineQANTAS077 From Australia, joined Jan 2004, 5825 posts, RR: 41
Reply 23, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3368 times:



Quoting CupraIbiza (Reply 22):
and what do we do to fix this?

work with the aboriginal people...there's a start?

"You cannot do good things to Aboriginal people, you can only do good things with Aboriginal people. And unless the Aboriginal people themselves are part of this and are consulted and brought on board and it's what they want to happen and it's happening with government it won't work."



a true friend is someone who sees the pain in your eyes, while everyone else believes the smile on your face.
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 24, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3364 times:

I think both sides should be sentenced to 5 years community service for over-acting and using a very bad script.

Of the two sides, the faults of the Aboriginals are the lesser however. Turning some into all, and making a generation out of it made great copy for the front pages of the newspapers, but has allowed attacks to be made that can seem to cast doubts on the very real awfulnesses that were done in the name of the state.

Another fault was to make it all sound so bad, that in this enlightened age there was no chance that a high proportion of the same things were not still going on. WE could not be as bad as that, so no need to review what IS happening.

So now you have many of the posters in this thread prattling on about how much has been contributed to aboriginals in the way of welfare and look how they sniff it up their noses and piss it all down the sink. Another set of exaggerations.

Suddenly that well known moderate Andrew Bolt is unable to find 10 persons who were stolen while every radio program under the Australian sun (and under a few clouds of late) has had no difficulty in finding dozens - every day for months!

The white settlement of Australia did involve taking Aboriginals land. Yes there was a policy of assimilation. I can remember a set of Blue Hills episodes written many years ago explaining how melanism in Aboriginals is a recessive gene and so half castes intermarrying were unlikely to produce black offspring.

Most of the posts saying we have nothing to be sorry about, are simply making the point that the welfare "delivered" to some Aboriginals has not been well done.

The first problem was the WIlson report went for sensationalism at the expense of accuracy and at the same time ignored the fairly obvious point that many of the policies continue in effect to this very day (and they do for whites as well!). That allowed a mass of criticism that totally missed the point.

The next one was that Howard was so stubborn, he could not see that saying sorry was a sensible step and allowed a relatively minor issue to become transformed to a major one.

Yes, the way in which welfare is actually used is a problem. But we had ten years of doing nothing and then Howard sent the army in. For gods sake the army. Of course those with a memory slightly greater than that of the average gnat, would have remembered that Dr Herron (the very well-intentioned first Howard Min for Ab Affairs) also sent in the army in 1996-97. So it was a repeat of a basic strategy that had failed already.

Something does need to be done.

Of course the Australian population with its general abstemiousness is in a great position to lecture Aboriginals for their inability to cope with alcohol.

Get the mote out of thine own eye first.


25 CupraIbiza : Totally agree with you. As i said a number of times if apologising for the Stolen Generation will mean this can commence then I am all for it. I just
26 Springbok747 : Totally agree. What is the point of this whole apology anyway? I don't think it would mean anything nor make a difference in the lives of majority of
27 GREATANSETT : Let it be known that i did not vote for Kevin Rudd. He has deceived the Australian public, if only he disclosed his intentions during the election cyc
28 Klaus : That exact same argumentation had been played in post-war Germany as well regarding the official position towards the Holocaust survivors. I'm just h
29 Post contains links Baroque : Where were you guys during the election. Not listening? http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=5962 Bringing them home : Comments By Ha
30 Post contains links QANTAS077 : for godsake, its been on the books for the past decade, if you don't know that by now then your living under a bloody rock, jesus, Rudd spoke about i
31 GREATANSETT : I don't think the holocaust can really be compared to the stolen generation. The holocaust was the systematic destruction of many groups with that ver
32 ScarletHarlot : It continued until the late 60s. Some kids didn't get to return to their families until 1980.
33 Post contains images GREATANSETT : Sorry guys i must not have been paying attention, but i must say the media was awfully quiet about it
34 QANTAS077 : that's why it was front page of every paper in may 2007, you should cease commenting before you really make yourself look stupid.
35 Klaus : Different extent of the crime, but in both cases a collective apology to the collective victims is appropriate. You're automatically assuming "only t
36 Post contains links QANTAS077 : so to all you suckas that fear massive compensation claims, chew on this.. "The Law Society of New South Wales says while today's apology is historica
37 Pilotdude09 : The fact is every bit of info there is 100% true. Their real parents are/were the problem, the majority are alcoholics and will do anything to get al
38 QANTAS077 : where is your evidence that backs up this bullshit? don't spit out your simple version of events without proof. oh for fuck sake, White Australian's
39 Post contains images Klaus : The problem is that any kind of "info" is only a small part of that despicable list and even that part looks more than just a little dubious in its (
40 Post contains images Klaus : As a rethorical question posed on Fox "News", perhaps? Just compare the countries which had their respective first women in charge (chancellor Merkel
41 Post contains links NAV20 : My own feeling is that the 'apology,' though it's currently stirring up a lot of controversy, is largely beside the point. The point is that no-one on
42 Post contains images Klaus : I don't have such an impression. My explicit point has just been all along that the matter of a formal apology for a certain collective mistreatment
43 CupraIbiza : Thank you I have been trying to find a way to communicate exactly this point I have now read the rest of your post. Brilliant.
44 NAV20 : Problem is, Klaus, that police here are paid for by state governments. Northern Territory taxpayers, for example, simply couldn't AFFORD the extra nu
45 CupraIbiza : There is also the issue of a shortage of state police numbers nationally. So its not simply a money issue but a resources issue. The Army is by far t
46 Post contains links CupraIbiza : " target=_blank>http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...5.htm I am not a sucka (whatever that is?) and I dont fear massive compensation claims, and fi
47 Post contains images NAV20 : I was once involved with one, Cupralbiza - a 'Craft Centre' near Ayers Rock. I was sharing an office with another self-employed 'consultant,' in his
48 Post contains links Pilotdude09 : http://news.theage.com.au/sorry-comp...e-nation-dodson/20080213-1ryn.html Now they want more bloody money! now Kevin has admitted they done wrong, the
49 Post contains images FlashFlyGuy : Just this minute received an SMS from one of my Aboriginal mates; "In light of the Commonwealth Governments decision to apologise for the million stol
50 Post contains images NAV20 : LOVE it, FlashFlyGuy. Though I must admit that they never stole MY car - just busted a window and stole my jacket and briefcase.....
51 LOT767-300ER : Klaus you mind if I give you my paypal account and you can deposit me money for the hundreds of years your nation has plundered, murdered and occupied
52 KiwiinOz : What a great moment in Australian history. Limp, non-committal, middle of the road politics has been abandoned in favour of a stronger, riskier, more
53 Post contains images NAV20 : Load of rubbish IMO, KiwiinOz. You're welcome to come and visit my local High Street any time after school's out - groups of kids of all sorts of col
54 Farcry : I'm not trying to 'stir the pot' here but, when you say resources, I gather that means 'Man power'? This got me to thinking. Would anyone from Austra
55 Post contains links NAV20 : I suppose it's a fair question, Farcry, but you could have googled it up for yourself. Currently 144 in Western Australia, 62 in South Australia, if t
56 Farcry : Sorry NAV20. Just laziness on my part. Thanks for the info and links. Much appreciated. Farcry.
57 Post contains links and images NAV20 : No problem, Farcry. In fact I owe you my thanks - in course of googling I discovered that, statistically speaking, and only according to Wikipedia, th
58 Post contains images Wunala : Rudd = Nelson = tool Just my after this morning, and rereading the scripts.
59 Baroque : Well indeed, KRudd may be king but the last time I checked, there were still a bunch of highly paid judges and whatever who determine court matters a
60 NAV20 : Dead right, Baroque - failing specific legislation (which hopefully Krudd is too intelligent ever to put through) the 'stolen ones' will have to prov
61 Baroque : That is a point I am happy to concede, there IS an Aboriginal industry and for a large part, it works not for the good of many. Mind you, there is ha
62 Post contains links Baroque : This thread was beginning to make me think that I had not been listening. I suppose the Sydney Morning Herald will be accused of selectivity but the s
63 Post contains links NAV20 : More and more I find myself seeing the whole 'apology' thing as an irrelevance as far as the REAL problem is concerned. Finally a good piece of journa
64 Post contains links and images NAV20 : Actually some even better quotes from Mal Brough. Brough was the Minister - under John Howard, but don't hold that against him, he (Brough, I mean ) i
65 KiwiinOz : The children maybe, children are less affected by prejudices. My impression came more from the adults. In terms of, "where you been", I lived in Adel
66 Post contains images NAV20 : Sorry, KiwiinOz, shouldn't have snapped. But I'm frankly amazed (and gratified) at the way the kids are 'integrating.' And the fact that there don't s
67 CupraIbiza : From my experience that has always been the case. But its totally understandable and usually is over by the next generation. Case in point is Footscr
68 Klaus : That's just a cop-out for bad resource provisioning, especially when an army deployment has problematic historical connotations. When you need more p
69 NAV20 : With repect, Klaus, that seems to be a bit if a 'trip-hammer' response. First of all the Australian Army doesn't have the sort of 'historical connota
70 CupraIbiza : My cynical view was that Sorry Day was done because its easy to stand up and make a speech. To actually fix the issues at hand is going to be a hell
71 Slider : Thank you! But you'll never convince Klaus of that. He thinks one big touchy-feely gesture, along with bajillions of state aid to compensate, will ma
72 Post contains images SBBRTech : I bet if they were to do a little research about the situation of native peoples in the real 3rd world they would start appreciating what they get fr
73 Baroque : The problems were not exactly unknown, so why the sudden rush. What had been happening since Herron sent the army in to aboriginal communities in 199
74 Post contains links NAV20 : I'm sure you've had experience of dealing with Canberra, Baroque. Problems can go un-noticed for years - then one embarrassing Parliamentary question
75 Post contains images Baroque : You could well be correct, Nav, and on the continuity forecasting principle, you would be. You know, to get the weather forecast stick your head out
76 Klaus : I wasn't talking of that kind of background. But sending the military which by definition is supposed to act against external threats to "deal with"
77 SBBRTech : That's why it won't happen.
78 TransIsland : Which is why I'm resisting my Aussie wife's wish to move down under, because that's exactly the vibe I picked up every time we visited. Oh, yeah, Ame
79 Farcry : Hi NAV20/all. Sorry for the late reply. Using rounded figures, there seems to be approx 20,000,000 people living in Oz. Using NAV's figures for Abori
80 Post contains links Baroque : I get the feeling that a great deal of this thread is now being argued in the past. Whatever you think of Rudd, he managed to draw a line last week, a
81 Post contains links and images NAV20 : Are you suggesting some sort of 'quota system,' Farcry? That, since the aboriginal or part-aboriginal population is currently estimated at somewhere
82 Post contains images MaverickM11 : It's interesting that even if Americans felt a lot of the things that have been discussed in this thread about minorities, they mostly wouldn't dare w
83 Klaus : I think the wording took care of that (see video above).
84 CupraIbiza : It has been over a week since the apology. It has now totally dropped off the face of the political and media landscape. In Opposition Rudd and Co whe
85 Klaus : Then why did both still take so long?
86 Post contains links and images NAV20 : In opposition they took the traditional course of saying that they'd dismantle all the changes the previous government had recently made. They're com
87 Baroque : I think Klaus has a point, why so long to do it? And to add to that, so long to get it done and so quick to announce it a failure. Well it might be a
88 CupraIbiza : My point is that we have now signed Kyoto. But nothing has changed. Isnt the actual changes whats important? Hence to me how long it took is not rele
89 KiwiinOz : To be honest, if my race had been through what the aborigines have been through, and the alienation from society that they currently go through, I'd
90 NAV20 : The situation in a nutshell, Baroque. Having said that, you surely owe it to us to say what measures you think WOULD work? For myself, I see no alter
91 Post contains images Baroque : The reason to sign immediately, is not to do something new - as some in the Coalition kept telling us, we were already compliant - but to catch up wi
92 Post contains links and images NAV20 : Oddly enough, Baroque, this is one case where some new information has become available while the discussion has been in progress. A guy named Sir Ed
93 Post contains images N229NW : Yeah. No, it's disgusting and tells one half the story, and not even all of that half. "us"? "them"? wtf? You were mugged by criminals who happened t
94 Post contains images SBBRTech : holy crap, you're right...i think I'll stop using the "PC" acronym unless I'm talking about personal computers.
95 JM017 : I love this logic. So the Aussies, Canadians and Americans should stop trying because it never seems to end? Every action has its consequences and th
96 Cpd : Where I work, we do - and it makes a difference. Hard working people who care about their job, and care about the state and its people. I personally
97 Baroque : That saved my trying to work up an excoriating reply, as I was getting into the supercritical zone as your collar was getting hot Nav. The lines migh
98 NAV20 : Yes, a good movie, that one, Baroque; about an Australian officer accused of shooting Boer prisoners of war in the 1900s. What was astonishing about
99 Post contains links Baroque : Ah but was it? http://www.lighthorse.org.au/military/small.htm " It was then realized that if the advantage of rapid fire was to be fully achieved th
100 Post contains links and images NAV20 : Off topic, so I'll try to be brief, Baroque - but yes. The scandal behind the unit that Morant belonged to, the Bushveldt Carbineers, was that it was
101 Baroque : Sorry for the digression but thanks for the answer. But it does serve as a guide if even the rifle type for such a well documented war is less than c
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