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GM Posts Biggest Annual US Auto Loss  
User currently offlineUTA_flyinghigh From Tunisia, joined Oct 2001, 6495 posts, RR: 50
Posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2857 times:

So GM lost 38.7 billion $ in 07 :
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...NJAC&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

Wow  Wow!

UTA  checkeredflag 


Fly to live, live to fly - Air France/KLM Flying Blue Platinum, BMI Diamond Club Gold, Emirates Skywards
130 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAa757first From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3350 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2828 times:

I really wonder how much GM would save if they consolidated to three or four brands.

User currently offlineDtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1175 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2810 times:

You need to read between the lines on this one,




GM's annual loss of $38.7 billion largely was due to a third-quarter charge related to unused tax credits.

The 2007 loss topped GM's previous record in 1992, when the company lost $23.4 billion because of a change in health care accounting, according to Standard & Poor's Compustat.

Excluding the tax charge and other special items, GM lost $23 million, or 4 cents per share, for the year



Their actual loss for the year was 23 million.


User currently offlineFlyingbronco05 From United States of America, joined May 2002, 3840 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2801 times:

I think it's time the US manufacturers start building good quality cars. I dumped my chevy for a mazda a few months ago and couldn't be happier.

GM is the wallmart of the Auto industry.



Never Trust Your Fuel Gauge
User currently offlineJetsGo From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3086 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2793 times:

Quoting Flyingbronco05 (Reply 3):
I dumped my chevy for a mazda

That Mazda is simply a rebadged Ford.

Quoting Flyingbronco05 (Reply 3):
GM is the wallmart of the Auto industry

If you're going to insult, make sure you spell correctly. Wal*Mart, Wal Mart, or even wal mart.  Smile

With regards to the loss GM is posting, I believe dtw9 hit the nail on the head. I also believe that GM should cut down to Chevy, Pontiac, and Cadillac. Maybe keep GMC. The whole concept of having a Traverse, Acadia, Outlook, and Enclave is completely stupid. Same goes for a Tahoe, Yukon, and Escalade, and just about every other minivan and small "SUV" GM makes. All they need is an economy brand... Chevy, a sporty brand... Pontiac, and a luxury brand... Cadillac. And maybe GMC for heavy duty trucks. Ford and Chrysler could take note too. I just don't see why they build cars to compete with other cars they already build?   

Then of course there is the UAW....

[Edited 2008-02-12 12:57:56]


Marine Corps Aviation, The Last To Let You Down!
User currently offlineAa757first From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3350 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2771 times:



Quoting JetsGo (Reply 4):
I also believe that GM should cut down to Chevy, Pontiac, and Cadillac. Maybe keep GMC. The whole concept of having a Traverse, Acadia, Outlook, and Enclave is completely stupid. Same goes for a Tahoe, Yukon, and Escalade, and just about every other minivan and small "SUV" GM makes. All they need is an economy brand... Chevy, a sporty brand... Pontiac, and a luxury brand... Cadillac. And maybe GMC for heavy duty trucks. Ford and Chrysler could take note too. I just don't see why they build cars to compete with other cars they already build?

GM has to have the worst branding strategy in the US auto industry. Look at Toyota. Three brands Toyota (general), Lexus (luxury) and Scion (boutique brand). And they sell similar amounts of cars.

Buick is not really a necessary brand anymore. Neither is GMC, Saturn or Pontiac. If they dropped those four brands, they'd be left with Chevy (the general brand), Cadillac (luxury brand), Hummer (boutique) and Saab (at least they sell distinctive cars). It would be sad to see those brands go, but they really just don't serve a purpose anymore.


User currently offlineCaptOveur From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2771 times:

So I wonder what will come first? GM pulling their head out of their ass and realizing they are behind the rest of the world in manufacturing, labor relations, and engineering. Or more plant shut downs, more discontinued lines, and maybe a bankruptcy filing possibly combined with a sellout to a company that was once a nobody.

User currently offlineJetsGo From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3086 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2762 times:

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 5):
Buick is not really a necessary brand anymore. Neither is GMC, Saturn or Pontiac. If they dropped those four brands, they'd be left with Chevy (the general brand), Cadillac (luxury brand), Hummer (boutique) and Saab (at least they sell distinctive cars). It would be sad to see those brands go, but they really just don't serve a purpose anymore.

I partly disagree. Pontiac should be kept as a sporty line. The new G8 is a Charger killer, even though it is a Holden. If not keep it, Chevy should expand its SS line to actual decent cars, not two door Silverado's and front wheel drive Impala's. I also would say that Hummer should be dumped because they are such a disgrace to the orgional Hummers.   Plus they offer nothing that can't be found in a Tahoe/Yukon/Escalade. As for Saab, once they introduced the 9-7x, I lost all respect for GM's owership of Saab. They should be sold off to a company that will respect the uniqueness of Saab, and produce cars that aren't copies of a TrailBlazer and Envoy. Buick and Saturn should be dumped, especially with the release of a $30,000 Saturn Outlook.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 6):
So I wonder what will come first? GM pulling their head out of their ass and realizing they are behind the rest of the world in manufacturing, labor relations, and engineering. Or more plant shut downs, more discontinued lines, and maybe a bankruptcy filing possibly combined with a sellout to a company that was once a nobody.

Sadly, GM has seen this coming for years. I won't hold much hope for them. I would love to see them succeed, but given their track record, I am uncertain.

[Edited 2008-02-12 13:25:32]


Marine Corps Aviation, The Last To Let You Down!
User currently offlineFlight152 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 3413 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 2745 times:



Quoting JetsGo (Reply 7):
Pontiac should be kept as a sporty line.

An announcement today--

"However the new Trans Am that Pontiac had lobbied for as a sibling vehicle to the Chevrolet Camaro has been rejected. GM also told Pontiac dealers that any plans to make the brand a rear-wheel-drive performance division are likely to be scaled back because of fuel-economy regulations."

Wow. Performance? Pontiac is destined to be full of FWD 4-cylinder boat anchors. This new Camaro which, by the way has taken what, 2 years to come out? Where is it?

http://www.egmcartech.com/2008/02/12...c-no-trans-am-no-rear-wheel-drive/


User currently offlineNWA742 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 2727 times:



Quoting Flyingbronco05 (Reply 3):
I think it's time the US manufacturers start building good quality cars.

They are. In fact, they are building cars that are amazingly higher quality than ones from a short while ago.

Quoting Flyingbronco05 (Reply 3):
I dumped my chevy for a mazda a few months ago and couldn't be happier.

GM is the wallmart of the Auto industry.

Thank you for displaying a clear example of the intelligence level quite commonly seen with people who know nothing about cars, but are always happy to assume that everything the US makes is shit, and everything foreign is so much better. BTW, your Mazda is a Ford.

 rotfl 

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 5):
GM has to have the worst branding strategy in the US auto industry.

Now that is most certainly true. Do we really need 7 freaking versions of the Trailblazer? GM has all the potential to become great once again, but shitheads in high places have kept that from happening.

Quoting Flight152 (Reply 8):
Wow. Performance? Pontiac is destined to be full of FWD 4-cylinder boat anchors.

Hopefully not. Pontiac should either be kept as a sporty division or killed.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3a/Pontiac_G8_concept_car.JPG/800px-Pontiac_G8_concept_car.JPG

Quoting Flight152 (Reply 8):
This new Camaro which, by the way has taken what, 2 years to come out? Where is it?

Scheduled for release in



and will go on sale in the first quarter of 2009 - what's your problem with that?




-NWA742


User currently offlineCaptOveur From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 2717 times:



Quoting NWA742 (Reply 9):
. In fact, they are building cars that are amazingly higher quality than ones from a short while ago.

It's easy to improve when you are at the bottom. Just ask the Japanese.. 20 years ago nobody in their right mind would touch one and now they are killing the Three Stooges.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 9):
Pontiac should either be kept as a sporty division or killed.

Agreed. It looks like whatever that Pontiac you posted wants to be a BMW. Just like that little 2 seat sports car Pontiac pushes (Solstice?) looks like it was ripped off from Lotus (though probably slightly more reliable). They would stand a better chance if they came up with their own designs instead of stealing from others.


User currently offlineNWA742 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 2716 times:



Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 10):
It's easy to improve when you are at the bottom. Just ask the Japanese.. 20 years ago nobody in their right mind would touch one and now they are killing the Three Stooges.

 checkmark 

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 10):
Agreed. It looks like whatever that Pontiac you posted wants to be a BMW.

It's the G8 - going to be a RWD V8 sedan. It already looks badass, and it's going to be a beast in the performance department.




-NWA742


User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 2716 times:

I'm shopping around for a new car. Last week I came 'this close' to buying the new Bullitt Mustang. - I walked away when the dealer wanted $15K dealer premium. Can we say "Rip Off?"

But the Bullitt was an unusual choice. Sure, it had its drawbacks, but the exterior is beautifuly understated (no scoops and hoods and chrome), and the engine noise is almost orgasmic.

But in the past couple of months, every single new American car I get into just feels cheap. Even the Caddy. Cheap plastic everywhere.

They aren't the only ones. Even BMWs, which I love, often use pretty cheap-feeling plastics - but at least you know they won't shake off the dash in 100k miles. American plastics feel like they will.

GM can turn their whole company around if they are willing to spend maybe $50-70 per car. That would be all it takes (when buying in large quantities) to upgrade the feel and quality of the driver's interior. The steering wheel is the most important - the driver is in tactile contact with that the whole time. If the wheel feels substantial and expensive, that's half the battle.

Some years ago my parents, retired, bought a Subaru Outback. I laughed when I heard that - they were used to pretty luxurious cars. But when I sat in the Subaru I was amazed. The materials of the interior were top-notch, and just FEELS expensive. And face it, you spend most of the time with your car inside it looking out, not outside looking in. So they bought a car that feels like a luxury car for a lot less money than the Jaguar which they were originally shopping for (Jag has nice interiors too).

It's all a matter of priorities, GM. Spend a little less money on advertising and spend that money on giving your cars a decent interior that makes people think that they are in a much more expensive car. Word of mouth will more than make up for the advertising shortfall.


User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 13, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2711 times:



Quoting JetsGo (Reply 4):
I also believe that GM should cut down to Chevy, Pontiac, and Cadillac.

GM is also the majority owner of German car maker Opel. If GM was to consolidate on only three brands or so, what would become of Opel?

BTW: Shouldn't GM be in bankruptcy by now? They've been making losses year after year, and they still don't file for Chapter 11.


User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2710 times:



Quoting JetsGo (Reply 4):
I just don't see why they build cars to compete with other cars they already build?

Supposedly to give customers the option to always choose their personal favorite brand. Granted, these days that's absolute bull when you consider that one car sold as Opel, Holden, Chevy, Saturn, etc is really just the same car with minor changes.

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 5):
GM has to have the worst branding strategy in the US auto industry

And it's not just limited to the US. To say that Chevy Germany is doing bad would be a compliment. The GM group is already well-positioned in Germany with home country manufacturer Opel (offering everything from city car to SUV) and a strong import force in Saab, yet GM felt that after absorbing Daewoo (who had already reverse-engineered Opel models in the past) they should rebrand them as Chevrolet and compete on the German market. Well, no dice with that, these days it seems like the Corvette C6 and Hummer H3 are outselling all "Daevrolet" models combined  Yeah sure .

Admittedly, in the US it is even worse, but at least over there, all sub-brands have a healthy name reputation, whereas over here Chevy is solely related to the Corvette, with most people not even knowing that Chevy does build other models. Now personally I can't judge the US market so good, but I see it like this:
-Buick needs to be put to sleep. Sure, Buick has a great history, but it doesn't have a good presence and an even bleaker future. I don't know how others feel, but personally I associate Buick with middle class to upper class limousines, not SUVs, definitely not.
-Split up seturn. Completely kill the Aura (based on the same platform as the Malibu and G6), merge the Sky with the Solstice, keep the Astra, and move the Vue and Outlook to GMC
-Make GMC the sole SUV provider in the GM group, at least for the US market save for the Escalade
-Cadillac as the luxury brand, as said by others
-Pontiac as sporty brand, as also said before
And since we're at it, drop Chevy in Germany and focus more on Opel and Saab.

As a side, from my experience over the holidays, the Pontiac G6 is actually a pretty nice car. Put 2000 miles on it in 13 days, didn't have any problems, and got good mileage per gallon out of it.


User currently offlineCaptOveur From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2701 times:



Quoting NWA742 (Reply 11):
It already looks badass

No, it looks like a BMW. I would bet anything it won't handle like one though.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 12):
every single new American car I get into just feels cheap. Even the Caddy. Cheap plastic everywhere.

This is my biggest hangup about American cars. My grandfather has been buying Cadillacs every 3-5 years since the early 1950s and after the last 2 he has talked about looking at other cars. I have driven the most recent one (its a 2006) and I positively hate even sitting in the thing.

Also, what is up with GM mentioning Honda in the ads for Impalas and Toyota in the Ads for Malibus? Doesn't that seem a bit stupid to anyone else telling people what other cars they should think about before they even set foot in the dealer?


User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2689 times:



Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 15):
No, it looks like a BMW. I would bet anything it won't handle like one though

Actually I saw a british test of it (they are selling it as a Vauxhall over there) and apparently it is a blast to drive. But if they do what they usually do and soften up the suspension for the American market, then all bets are off.

What's with Americans, anyway? What is so delicate about our butts that everyone, even Ferrari and Porsche, have to soften up the cars before sending them here? It's not as if we have less padding on our butts than the rest of the world  Silly


User currently offlineNWA742 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2685 times:



Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 15):
No, it looks like a BMW.

And some BMWs are beasts.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 15):
I would bet anything it won't handle like one though.

I bet you it will. A Motor Trend reviewer: "If the experience recalls any other car, it's the previous-generation BMW M5, which also had a six-speed stick, 400 horses, and a wonderfully communicative chassis."




-NWA742


User currently offlineLOT767-300ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2664 times:



Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 14):
Admittedly, in the US it is even worse, but at least over there, all sub-brands have a healthy name reputation, whereas over here Chevy is solely related to the Corvette, with most people not even knowing that Chevy does build other models. Now

The Corvette is not branded or sold as a Chevy in Europe.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 14):
And it's not just limited to the US. To say that Chevy Germany is doing bad would be a compliment. The GM group is already well-positioned in Germany with home country manufacturer Opel (offering everything from city car to SUV) and a strong import force in Saab, yet GM felt that after absorbing Daewoo (who had already reverse-engineered Opel models in the past) they should rebrand them as Chevrolet and compete on the German market. Well, no dice with that, these days it seems like the Corvette C6 and Hummer H3 are outselling all "Daevrolet" models combined .

This really also pisses me off. Its unreasonably idiotic to badge Korean crap as Chevrolet. Too bad this happens even with the Daewoo Kalos-Chevy Aveo in the USA...why dont they just let Suzuki take that crap like they take all other Daewoo crap here.


User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 19, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2662 times:



Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 18):

I wondered when you'd turn up. Big grin

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 18):
The Corvette is not branded or sold as a Chevy in Europe.

Correct. It's just listed as "Corvette", but distributed through Cadillac dealers - of which there are very few.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 18):
Its unreasonably idiotic to badge Korean crap as Chevrolet.

It doesn't exactly do much for Chevrolet's image, does it? Although now they have introduced the Captiva under the Chevvy brand, which is a little bit better, I suppose.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineCupraIbiza From Australia, joined Feb 2007, 837 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2657 times:



Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 15):
No, it looks like a BMW. I would bet anything it won't handle like one though.

A BMW 550i and Mercedes E500 was road tested against the VE Holden Calais V (basically the luxury vesrion of the the Pontiac G8 you will receive). The result was that the Holden had better ride and handling - and for $100K less

Now if Ford Australia could only convince HQ in the US to release the locally produced Falcon (especially the XR6 Turbo) but we can only dream



Everyday is a gift…… but why does it have to be a pair of socks?
User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9272 posts, RR: 21
Reply 21, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2654 times:

Maybe they can turn things around with some of their new Chevy concepts that are constantly in the commercials  crossfingers 


Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineJetsGo From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3086 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2643 times:



Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 15):
No, it looks like a BMW. I would bet anything it won't handle like one though.

Even if it doesn't, what's your point? That a $60,000 BMW can handle better then a $30,000 Pontiac? How long were you up figuring that one out?  Yeah sure

Quoting CupraIbiza (Reply 20):
Now if Ford Australia could only convince HQ in the US to release the locally produced Falcon (especially the XR6 Turbo) but we can only dream

That is another big gripe I have. Why are we stuck with underpowered Fusions, Five Hundreds, Impalas, and Grand Prix, while the Australians down under get some sweet Fords and Holdens?



Marine Corps Aviation, The Last To Let You Down!
User currently offlineLOT767-300ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2640 times:



Quoting Banco (Reply 19):
Correct. It's just listed as "Corvette", but distributed through Cadillac dealers - of which there are very few.

Im glad I needed your approval to make a correction. So now we have me as the corrector, and you as the corrector's corrector. Fine.

Quoting Banco (Reply 19):
It doesn't exactly do much for Chevrolet's image, does it? Although now they have introduced the Captiva under the Chevvy brand, which is a little bit better, I suppose.

Banco, the Captiva/Antara is made also by Daewoo in Korea...  Silly Its nothing more than a bloody Daewoo Winstorm rebadged just like every other vehicle. The only difference in the Antara over the Captiva is different dimensions but thats about it....if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...its still a damn duck.

Let the corrector's corrector correct me again if I am incorrect.


User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 24, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2630 times:



Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 23):
Im glad I needed your approval to make a correction. So now we have me as the corrector, and you as the corrector's corrector. Fine.

Oh, don't be an arse.  Yeah sure I was just adding more information.

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 23):
little bit better, I suppose.

Banco, the Captiva/Antara is made also by Daewoo in Korea...

Ye-es, but released under GM ownership.  Yeah sure I didn't say it wasn't. Nevertheless, it is a higher quality offering and sits better in the Chevrolet family than any of the knackered old Daewoo products based on previous generation Opels.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
25 Post contains images LOT767-300ER : Okay Editor Banco.
26 CaptOveur : Thank the EPA The point was if they want to make a BMW knockoff, why not make a BMW knockoff.. Instead of something that resembles a BMW and probably
27 N1120A : Actually, pretty much every good Ford product is a rebadged Mazda. And? For the G8 to be anything, it needs to be aimed at Japanese and German cars.
28 CupraIbiza : You mean the Fords you know of. Falcon and Territory It is You ignore the salient point that the GM product was deemed to ride and handle than the BM
29 N1120A : The Fords in Ford's biggest market. Their best products are either Mazda or Ford of Europe designs. And who did the testing? Further, what were the c
30 CupraIbiza : Ford could have them in Fords biggest market. They for whatever reason choose not to Wheels Magazine Cant tell you the exact criteria it was some tim
31 Post contains images LOT767-300ER : Yes they do. What the heck are you thinking? We say Chevrolet Corvette and go to Chevy dealer...what more do you want. Hahaha...that was funny. You c
32 LTBEWR : GM made measurable profits outside of the USA. Their true looes are from USA car production and major losses with it's major interest in GMAC, a finan
33 Post contains images NWA742 : Not hardly - are you saying the previous generation M5 is not an incredible sports sedan? Bullshit - the thing is an absolute beast. The G8 isn't goi
34 LOT767-300ER : In reality the Z51R is nice...even too nice for my taste, but the new CTS-V is the car I would like to really have.
35 Post contains images NWA742 : Hell yes - I would take that over any beemer as well. The 09 will have 550hp and 550 ft. lbs. of torque. -NWA742
36 Post contains images DavestanKSAN : Speaking of beasts, that thing is pure sexy. Well, you can get a used E39 (older generation) M5 for less than $30,000. I know you're talking about ne
37 Post contains images Superfly :    There is no Mazda variant of the Crown Victoria or Mustang.    They can all go to hell. If they had their way, we'd all be driving in little V
38 NWA742 : Definitely - it's for the best with regards to competition and our economy. -NWA742
39 LOT767-300ER : I think the shit hit the fan at GM when they dropped the F-Bodies...at least that was the final straw in my eyes. I went to a Mopar product recently
40 Superfly : For those who want the power and performance of the 5.3 V8 is a smaller car without the 'bling' and plastic moldings of the Pontiac. Keep in mind, I
41 LOT767-300ER : You liked my post, just admit it damnit. I know Superfly thats what its there for. But that amounts to 20 people in America. That LaCross can be just
42 Superfly : NO! That would be terrible. Cadillac shouldn't have anything below the CTS. Most of the Cadillac line are great cars but honestly I think they should
43 Post contains links and images N1120A : I think Kerbeck's website sums it up. They identify as Kerbeck Corvette, not Kerbeck Chevy. http://www.kerbeck.com/ The Mini's basic design is what m
44 Post contains images Superfly : Cute. The best Fords are the Mustang and Crown Victoria. Excluding trucks, they are the best money makers for Ford and has the most loyal and repeat
45 NWA742 : So don't you think it's quite impressive that such a lower cost sedan is offering 400HP M5-like performance? Then I'd say you need to rethink your po
46 Post contains images LOT767-300ER : I cant disagree with you on the latter. But I disagree that Buick/Oldsmobile should be around in the year of 2008 when those douchebags at Lexus and
47 Bill142 : It's just an altered version of the Holden Commodore, designed and built in Australia. European cars were used as a benchmark as Australians tend to
48 LOT767-300ER : In all honesty, what we really need is the Holden Commodore HSV GTS/Senator Series with the LS2 V8 jacking out 412hp, 12 more than the previous gen i
49 Banco : I would think that the designers at now defunct Rover would have a bit of a row with you about saying the Mini was designed by BMW.
50 Post contains images LOT767-300ER : Editor Banco woke up? Oh good because its only 430am and ive got at least 6am to ponder about the automobile world. If I had a million dollars I woul
51 Bill142 : I'd want to hope the V8 version packs a decent punch because I drove a friends V6 a few weeks back and I certainly wasn't blown away by it.
52 LOT767-300ER : I would venture to say it is day and night.
53 ME AVN FAN : Interesting is that Opel made a profit. Possibly a sign that the US-American GM producers are not sufficiently working for the market. Somebody at GM
54 DAL767400ER : Never said it did. I am fully aware that the Corvette is essentially its own brand, at least here in Germany, but when people here are asked about Ch
55 ABQ747 : Really? The Mazda 3 is a rebadged Ford Focus. The Fusion and Edge are hardly just rebadged Mazdas. What about F-Series trucks?
56 ME AVN FAN : Any dealer in Continental Europe, wanting to do business with one make of GM, also has to market all the others. At least if the garage in question w
57 LOT767-300ER : N1120A concludes that Americans dont think of Chevrolet when they think of Corvette...I highly suspect his statement when even you tell me the German
58 Post contains links SBBRTech : General Motors do Brasil was founded in 1925 and has always used the Chevrolet badge since they started making pax cars in 1968 (before that they were
59 Fiatstilojtd : Theoretically, when they would scratch Opel and only keep Vauxhall...which brand would they use to sell the cars in the Republic of Ireland where som
60 LTBEWR : As to Corvette and Chevy in the USA, it has always been considered a part of Chevorlet division as to brand, engineering and engines. Any Chevy dealer
61 Post contains images Superfly : Yikes, that sounds very harsh. Those of us that have older family that have retired from GM, Ford & Chrysler do not want them to die any time soon. P
62 Banco : There are only 12 in Britain. Though given that the Corvette is left hand drive only (at least for the time being) it seems virtually certain that an
63 Post contains images Cornish : Ellesmere Port is the only factory here in the UK any more, since Luton closed. Only builds Astras and engines. All the rest of the range comes from
64 Cfalk : An M5 has 507HP, actually, and more importantly has the suspension and chassis to deal with it. The G8 seems like an excellent car, especially for th
65 Post contains images Fiatstilojtd : ...with my first post I only wanted to show an example why it could be necessary to sell the exactly same car (Opel Astra etc.) under a different nam
66 Banco : Good God, what on earth for? Vauxhall is a shite badge in this country, not a prestige one (interestingly, of far lower prestige than Opel). When the
67 ME AVN FAN : heard that "Opel" on sale in Ireland, where Opel are heavily preferred over Vauxhall, are produced in the Vauxhall works (left side driving) and in t
68 CaptOveur : Not true anymore. For the most part I think Cadillac makes junk. I really don't think using Led Zepplin songs in their ads are going to pry them away
69 Post contains links N1120A : The Crown Vic makes money because the cops buy them. Offering lesser performance than a 9 year old car isn't all that impressive. Absolutely not. Cor
70 Post contains links and images Fiatstilojtd : So a new offense/felony whatever - after DUI now comes PUI Posting under influence. . " target=_blank>http://www.slate.com/id/2121075 Handling was on
71 Post contains links ABQ747 : MotorTrend says that the Mazda3 is "Based on the new European-market Ford Focus." That's why I said that. http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/wagon/1
72 RIHNOSAUR : Very true......finally some one had the guts to say it on this thread....I will second this one.... Don't get me wrong, I think for all the classic c
73 LTU932 : Yes, but isn't the Crown Vic due to be discontinued due to lack of demand?
74 Aerobalance : I'm trying to figure out where the f*ck I can find skidpad quality dimensions and smooth surfaces in my everyday street driving that I do. Throw some
75 Cfalk : It depends what kind of roads you have. Straight, wide boulevards, you are probably right, but if you live in hilly or mountainous areas, having a su
76 Aerobalance : No. Supple like a current 535i, Porsche Carrera. Float-boat not spoken here
77 Post contains links ABQ747 : Ford and GM HAVE been stepping up their quality within the last couple of years, and it's starting to show. On the other hand, it looks like the Japa
78 CupraIbiza : The original statement was that the Holden Calais V was a better performer than a BMW 550 - not an M5
79 Stretch 8 : I did my part, buying a new 2007 Chevrolet Tahoe (it runs on ethanol) for my wife. I retain my BMW 5 series. Best of both worlds.
80 Post contains links and images NWA742 : And cops and taxi companies use them because they are incredibly strong, durable, and reliable vehicles. In fact there's really nothing quite like th
81 Post contains images LOT767-300ER : He was talking about the last M5 I have an LT1 B-Body, even older thats 12 years old...not only does it make the sound of 20 of your M3s, it apprecia
82 CupraIbiza : Yes there is its called a Ford Falcon. Available in 190kw 6 cyl, 240kw 6 cyl turbo and 270kW odd V8. If a Holden Commodore can become a Pontiac G8 a
83 Cfalk : Hardly fair to compare a current car to a car that is no longer in production. My Ford Taurus would then beat the hell out of a 1955 Ferrari around a
84 LOT767-300ER : Charles, the Holden Commodore has been in production since 1978. The last generation before this one was 1997-2006 which included later V8s anywhere
85 CaptOveur : I agree the number of cup holders is getting insane. Intelligence says limit it to 1 per occupant. However, BMW needs to adapt a little to the US mar
86 767Lover : Agreed. GM’s core automotive business generated record revenue of $178 billion in 2007, a $7 billion improvement over 2006. Also, in November 2006
87 Post contains links Cfalk : GM's revenue fell from $205.6 billion to $181.1 Gross Margin is down from $41.9 billion to $14.9 Operating Cash Flow is up, but still $11.8 billion i
88 Post contains images LOT767-300ER : Look at the brightside, if youre Dodge you cant do worse. The last time they made cops a vehicle.....the Stratus.
89 CupraIbiza : It was never an M5 that I mentioned. Current past or future. The statement I made in a nutshell was that the Pontiac G8 had better ride and handling
90 Flight152 : ..and we still don't beleive it.
91 Cfalk : I used to own a 540, and that was one hell of a nice driving car. I guess we'll see.
92 Post contains images Superfly : Nothing wrong with catering to old people. Their money is just as good as some 30 year old. Nothing wrong with driving a living room sofa down the hi
93 LOT767-300ER : I hate people who constantly give me their schpeel about how their Import thats an SUV or AWD vehicle is godly. The harsher the environment the more
94 767Lover : " target=_blank>http://finance.google.com/finance?fs...hl=en Yes, I am aware of that. I was pointing out that the core automotive business did okay,
95 CaptOveur : My department had a few Intrepids. It was getting to the point we were talking about staging a horrible accident with a road flare to get rid of the
96 Superfly : Thanks for pointing that out. GM is making some good cars and lots of people are buying them. Their problems have more to do with a hostile business
97 Post contains images NWA742 : You're talking about the current M5, not the previous E39 generation, that Motor Trend was referring to: This is the one - a 400HP V8 beast. The fact
98 CaptOveur : I guess there I go applying common sense. I know people are falling over themselves to buy a Crown Vic, or Grand Marquis that loses $10,000 in value
99 NWA742 : Yep, that's why anybody with common sense would never buy one new. Never said they were. Well newer isn't always better, especially in the auto indus
100 Post contains images Superfly : Not true at all. The Mercury Grand Marquis offeres the MOST car for the money. There is no other $25,000 car on the market that offers V8, rear-drive
101 EvilForce : GM and the GM unions have no one to blame other than themselves. They had the dominant marketshare in the world, and pissed it down their leg. I have
102 Superfly : ...and how did they piss it down their lag? Why should a worker in Michigan lose their job?
103 EvilForce : Are you kidding me? General Motors dominated the global auto biz. They ignored the consumer for decades. The union fought non-stop with mgmt. The uni
104 Post contains images Superfly : Not true. Not true. What "sins"? How so? Unlike Chrysler, they never had any government bailouts. So far, your post sounds fueled by your bias agains
105 Confuscius : Don't forget they're for mac daddies as well. However, Lexus and Toyota (Avalon) are quietly making inroads to that market.
106 Superfly : I know a retired pimp that bought a 2001 Jaguar Vanden Plas but he still hung on to his 1967 Cadillac Eldorado. If I were a pimp, I'd go for the 1976
107 Post contains images Confuscius : Is he Fillmore Slim? He had 22 hoes at one time but he's now retired and is currently a blues player. He played the game for over 40 years! Don't be
108 Superfly : No. Fillmore Slim drives a 1970 Cadillac Coupe Deville convertible. You can catch him down at Pier 23. Not yet. Bangkok is a very tough city for me t
109 CaptOveur : I know pimpin' ain't easy but if its got a 401k plan and health benefits I would be willing to consider it.
110 Superfly : Well he is a high-roller big time gambler. He managed to be able to buy a huge house in the hills above The Bay and is pretty much set for life. The
111 Post contains links Molykote : This is my biggest complaint with "upmarket" American cars. I'll accept some marginal materials in a Focus, but not a $60k vehicle. The luxury SUVs b
112 Cpd : I bet it would. But, then I'd know that - because we build them - and they are sharp. No less than the old BMW 5 series (before they were plagued wit
113 Superfly : Molykote: The Toyota Avalon comes close but still doesn't have the posh and solid feel of the Grand Marquis. The Grand Marquis is a better cruiser and
114 CaptOveur : What the hell are you smoking? My girlfriends parents have a spankin' new 2007 Grand Marquis and it sums up everything that is wrong with the America
115 Molykote : I do understand why some people would prefer the Grand Marquis (for reasons relating to the traditional V-8, frame, and RWD). However, I think this n
116 Superfly : You mis-understood my post. V8 rear-drive should not be limited to performance cars. CaptOveur: You've been saying this about your girlfriend's paren
117 CaptOveur : First they had a 2001. Then they got a new one last year. I have no idea why, its the same car except for the wheels.
118 Superfly : ...and most people who buy these cars as you already know are loyal buyers and are not concerned about resale value. Even a money pit such as a used
119 Flight152 : Speaking of Mercury, what is the point of that division? They offer nothing that can't be attained from a Ford model. Rebadging at its worst- and I ca
120 CaptOveur : Jill Wagner is Mercury's only redeeming quality... Well, she is the only reason I pay attention to the commercials anyway.
121 Post contains images Molykote : I get it now. I was in the middle of a post-night-shift beer at the time I am sure that some people buy BMWs simply due to image. However, I wouldn't
122 CaptOveur : *most* probably buy it for image. An 18 year old sorority girl is not driving a new 325 because she genuinely appreciates the way the car handles. I
123 Post contains images Superfly : Now that I can agree with!
124 Post contains images LOT767-300ER : Oh where oh where have thou gone? Come back to me....come back soooooooooooooooooon.. I saw a silver unmarked patrol one today on I-95 raping some Ho
125 Post contains links Molykote : I think that your use of "most" here is making quite a leap from what you or I can legitimately gauge. I don't see enough informaton being available
126 Superfly : CaptOveur makes a fair statement considering none of the BMWs made down in South Carolina are their premium cars that BMW is often praised for. Those
127 CaptOveur : SAPD has an assortment of colors. Black, white, and maroon. I see them scraping speed freaks in camaros off bridge pilings at 3am sometimes.
128 Flight152 : The X5's, X6, Z4, M roadsters built in Spartanburg are NOT entry level models.
129 Superfly : None are the better models that BMW makes.
130 Molykote : I've got a bunch of history discussing cars on these boards (and BMWs more than most, search if you like). My positions on the pros and cons of BMWs
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