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Klagenfurt, Austria - In new legislation this week, rightist governor Joerg Haider's province of Corinthian has effectively blocked the possible building of mosques and minarets. The law went through with the votes of Haider's governing Alliance for the Future of Austria (BZ), backed by the conservative People's Party (VP). Haider declared that Corinthian was "pointing the way for Europe". It was "time for a signal", the governor said. He accused the Social Democrats (SP), who were strictly against, of doing nothing to stop "the advance of Islam". Rather than explicitly banning mosques - which would have been unconstitutional - the law restricted "objects of special dimensions". The SP (Brazil)">VP claimed it was not a ban, but a new procedure "for special building projects". Local mayors and other authorities were obliged to call in a "special commission" which would have the power to decide on "objects contradicting the customary local building tradition". Critics pointed out that it might also cast doubt on the prestigious Tibet Center an Huettenberg, close to the home of the late friend of the Dalai Lama, Heinrich Harrer. The Dalai Lama has already personally visited the site. SP head in Corinthian, Gaby Schaunig, said the law was in any case about something that did not exist. There had never so far been an application to build a mosque in the province. Criticism came from Omar Al-Rawi of the Islamic Community in Austria. The building ban was against freedom of religion, the principle of equality for all citizens, and the European Convention of Human Rights. An estimated 15,000 Muslims live in Corinthian, and more than 300,000 in the whole of Austria.
These are translated news articles that are posted daily at my work's intranet. Loads of similar articles on the internet in english and german, but no APA (the news source) internet link per se for this particular one.
My take on this is that Haider's statements and opinions are extreme. Extremism in any direction isn't good. I posted this not for its worth (which isn't much, we get news like this from him day in and day out, in some he claims he wants to leave the EU), but just to stir some discussion.
INNflight From Austria, joined Apr 2004, 3765 posts, RR: 62 Reply 1, posted (5 years 4 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 927 times:
Quoting Kay (Thread starter): My take on this is that Haider's statements and opinions are extreme.
True, but to be honest (while I am not a supporter, or have ever voted for his party) try to get approval for building a church in a Turkish / Iranian / whatever... town.
Kay From France, joined Mar 2002, 1884 posts, RR: 3 Reply 2, posted (5 years 4 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 922 times:
Quoting INNflight (Reply 1): True, but to be honest (while I am not a supporter, or have ever voted for his party) try to get approval for building a church in a Turkish / Iranian / whatever... town.
Scorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 4934 posts, RR: 46 Reply 4, posted (5 years 4 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 892 times:
Quoting INNflight (Reply 1): try to get approval for building a church in a Turkish / Iranian / whatever... town.
Besides the fact that there are more than a few churches in Turkey, which has freedom of religion, it's a comparison that simply doesn't make sense. Because another country doesn't allow something, doesn't mean we shouldn't either. Especially when you start apparently taking countries like Iran as an example.
LTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 12366 posts, RR: 12 Reply 5, posted (5 years 4 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 890 times:
Both sides need to realize they need to compromise. Governments cannot try to restrict religion unnessarly. Religious organizations need to realize they are part of a larger community and must consider how their facilities for worship should fit into the community and not overwhelm it.
Here in the USA, we have Constitutional separation of Faith and State as well as protections of freedom of faith practices. There are also Federal laws that supersede local and state laws that try to restrict facilities of faith organizations, primarily to protect faiths that may be unpopular in a community. There have been abuse of the Federal protections (traffic, housing, already too much tax-exempt properties in the community, building appearance) and may go too far to protect the faith organizations from reasonable regulations.
ME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13875 posts, RR: 27 Reply 6, posted (5 years 4 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 887 times:
Quoting INNflight (Reply 1): to get approval for building a church in a Turkish
there are many churches in Turkey, and even the Pope of the Greek Orthodox church still has his HQ in Istanbul. So that people in a place with a sizeable Christian presence GET the required approval. And it is the same in countries like Egypt, Lebanon, Syria and Jordan. And it at least WAS so in Iraq until 2003 .
Stretch 8 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 2561 posts, RR: 18 Reply 7, posted (5 years 4 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 878 times:
Aha, now I know where the "fine Corinthian leather" in the 1977 Chrysler Cordoba came from!
Maggs swings, it's a drive deep to left! The Tigers are going to the World Series!!!
Kay From France, joined Mar 2002, 1884 posts, RR: 3 Reply 8, posted (5 years 4 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 875 times:
Although I definitely agree with all the above posts, the context also plays a role and hasn't been mentioned. For example, you have countries that have a recent history of immigration that shaped them, and others not. Austria for example, passed through that process almost 1,000 years ago, and has been for a very long time a land constituted by almost the same few ethnic groups. This is changing now, as the immigrants are taking an fastly increasing share, compared to 10, 20 and 30 years ago, and this is where the muslim percentage comes from.
Now I am FOR immigration and in a certain context I agree that it is healthy and has a vitalizing effect on the economy and culture of a country, and I also agree that some countries need to open up and lighten up, but still you can't directly compare the culture of such countries to that of the US, at least without taking that point into account.
Although the percentages are probably similar, there has been a recent increase that has panicked the extreme right.
Let me clarify though, that I have no respect to a nation that doesn't nurture and respect its immigrants. Gladly Austria has made alot of efforts in that direction.
Boeing744 From Canada, joined Jun 2005, 1774 posts, RR: 25 Reply 9, posted (5 years 4 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 859 times:
Quoting INNflight (Reply 1): True, but to be honest (while I am not a supporter, or have ever voted for his party) try to get approval for building a church in a Turkish / Iranian / whatever... town.
As it's been said already in this thread, why should Austria follow the lead of such countries? Here in Canada we have every sort of religious building you can think of, and nobody seems to have a problem with it.
In the short time I lived in Austria, it seemed to me that almost everyone considered Haider, Strache and the like, a bit of a joke. I only ever encountered one person who thought Strache had "the right idea", although I was never in Kaernten myself. It seemed to me that the FPOe and BZOe were getting a lot of protest votes from people tired of the same old stuff from OeVP and SPOe coalitions.
Any idea on how the people of Kaernten have reacted to this? There's no doubt that some of the mayors and other lower officials are going to try to block this "special commision".
Edited because German accents never work on this form anymore...
Boeing744 From Canada, joined Jun 2005, 1774 posts, RR: 25 Reply 11, posted (5 years 4 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 847 times:
Quoting Superfly (Reply 10): I see nothing wrong with Joerg Haider's actions.
And why would that be? How in any way is restricting freedom of religion OK?
The only thing I see positive about what he's doing is the actual veil of "protecting customary local building tradition". That's fine, there are some beautiful buildings which would just look strange with a mosque next to them. But that is no reason to restrict the building of mosques altogether... they should just either fit in with the traditional architecture, or be somewhere else (suburbs, etc).
whenever Mr Haider has prophet status in his native CARINTHIA he never did speak to the Corinthians ! While I doubt that the leather came really from Corinth .
-
Kay From France, joined Mar 2002, 1884 posts, RR: 3 Reply 14, posted (5 years 4 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 834 times:
Quoting Boeing744 (Reply 9): Here in Canada we have every sort of religious building you can think of, and nobody seems to have a problem with it.
Boeing744, Canada and Austria can't be directly compared on that particular point for the reason in my above:
"Although I definitely agree with all the above posts, the context also plays a role and hasn't been mentioned. For example, you have countries that have a recent history of immigration that shaped them, and others not. Austria for example, passed through that process almost 1,000 years ago, and has been for a very long time a land constituted by almost the same few ethnic groups. This is changing now, as the immigrants are taking an fastly increasing share, compared to 10, 20 and 30 years ago, and this is where the muslim percentage comes from."
Boeing744 From Canada, joined Jun 2005, 1774 posts, RR: 25 Reply 15, posted (5 years 4 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 814 times:
Quoting Kay (Reply 14): Boeing744, Canada and Austria can't be directly compared on that particular point for the reason in my above:
"Although I definitely agree with all the above posts, the context also plays a role and hasn't been mentioned. For example, you have countries that have a recent history of immigration that shaped them, and others not. Austria for example, passed through that process almost 1,000 years ago, and has been for a very long time a land constituted by almost the same few ethnic groups. This is changing now, as the immigrants are taking an fastly increasing share, compared to 10, 20 and 30 years ago, and this is where the muslim percentage comes from."
I'm not disagreeing with that - you're absolutely right. That doesn't mean however that Mosques should be banned, nor should it mean that immigrants and native Austrians can't get along. Austria should lead by example in central Europe, not follow the policies of countries such as Iran where "if they don't have churches we won't have mosques".
ScrubbsYWG From Canada, joined Mar 2007, 1488 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (5 years 4 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 779 times:
i remember writing a journal entry for my grade 12 english class on some of the things Haider was doing. this was back in the year 2000. We dont hear much about this guy in Canada, and i thought he had gone to the wayside and was voted out. I can't believe this guy still says things like this.
Pelican From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 2530 posts, RR: 8 Reply 17, posted (5 years 4 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 774 times:
Quoting Scorpio (Reply 4): Besides the fact that there are more than a few churches in Turkey, which has freedom of religion,
Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 6): there are many churches in Turkey, and even the Pope of the Greek Orthodox church still has his HQ in Istanbul. So that people in a place with a sizeable Christian presence GET the required approval.
Im glad you posted this before me !!!! Some people live in Disneyland.....
If they want tolerance in Christian nations then they must also be tolerant to Christian's in their nations !!!
Like the Irish woman who's Son was killed in Saudi Arabia and she was told she was not allowed to place religious beads in his hands which is a Catholic practice when a loved one dies. She was also told she could not wear her cross when she went to see his dead body !!!
OLYMPIC AIR - ΟΛΥΜΠΙΑΚΗ "Η ΕΛΛΑΔΑ ΨΗΛΑ" "GREECE FLYING HIGH"
Pelican From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 2530 posts, RR: 8 Reply 19, posted (5 years 4 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 757 times:
Quoting OA260 (Reply 18): If they want tolerance in Christian nations then they must also be tolerant to Christian's in their nations !!!
Here I disagree. We don't have religious freedom for "them". We have it for us and if "they" are here, our rules - which incorporate religious freedom - apply for "them", too - no matter what "they" are doing in their home countries. If we think religious tolerance is a universal concept, we can't abandon it because they are doing it. They are wrong, so acting like they do would mean we are wrong, too. But if we think they are wrong we can't keep silent about it.
And if they are here they have to respect our rules like religious freedom, too.
Nonetheless we have to be vigilant whether somebody misuses religious freedom and whether it could stir public unrest.
Asturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 1934 posts, RR: 17 Reply 20, posted (5 years 4 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 747 times:
Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 6): there are many churches in Turkey, and even the Pope of the Greek Orthodox church still has his HQ in Istanbul. So that people in a place with a sizeable Christian presence GET the required approval.
There are churches in Turkey, they are not many. The Patriarch of the Greek Orthodox is still there despite this western city being taken over by Asian muslims.
The Christians in Turkey get the required Turkish approval, i.e. none at all.
How does any of that contradict what I said? There ARE Christian churches in Turkey, and Turkey HAS freedom of religion.
Quoting OA260 (Reply 18): If they want tolerance in Christian nations then they must also be tolerant to Christian's in their nations !!!
Absolutely no logic in that. None whatsoever. It's just another example of what I said earlier: just because another country does or doesn't do something, doesn't mean we should follow them.
Quoting OA260 (Reply 18): Like the Irish woman who's Son was killed in Saudi Arabia and she was told she was not allowed to place religious beads in his hands which is a Catholic practice when a loved one dies. She was also told she could not wear her cross when she went to see his dead body !!!
Saudi Arabia does not have freedom of religion. Are you now suggesting that, because they don't have freedom of religion there, we should also ban it here?
LTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 51 Reply 23, posted (5 years 4 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 713 times:
Quoting Kay (Thread starter): My take on this is that Haider's statements and opinions are extreme. Extremism in any direction isn't good.
Haider is a Nazi (and not because his parents were involved in the NSDAP), so always expect extreme statements from him when it comes to all things not Austrian. The guy is a right extremist, a racist, and a populist. Just read the article, you can notice what kind of a racist tone there is. He wants to "stop the advance of Islam", and the wording he used somehow reminds me of how Hitler preached his ideology of death and destruction. Don't you Austrians have something like the Verfassungsschutz in Germany, to continuously monitor whatever those racist populists of both FPÖ and BZÖ, particularly that bastard Haider, are doing?
We must not tolerate racists of ANY kind, especially not if they go by the name of Jörg Haider and the FPÖ/BZÖ. I'm surprised he's still around in Kärnten.
Really ??? I suggest you educate yourself on the situation on the ground Sir !!!!
OLYMPIC AIR - ΟΛΥΜΠΙΑΚΗ "Η ΕΛΛΑΔΑ ΨΗΛΑ" "GREECE FLYING HIGH"
25 Pelican: If you call that freedom of religion I don't know. A state which confiscates property from Christian churches, a state which refuses building permiss
26 L410Turbolet: As far as his extremisim... he's probably no worse than the left-wing extremes of the likes of maoist Barosso and the rest of the EU establishment fr
27 Kay: I always believed the explanation for Haider still being around is his qualities in terms of populism, perseverence and rather remarkable intelligenc
28 Doona: You don't think there are churches in Turkey? Hold on, where does the Patriarch of the Orthodox Church hang out again? And AFAIK, there are enough ch
29 ME AVN FAN: I did NOT say that there were no problems existing. There are. But this does not change the fact that religion is free in the countries I mentioned,
30 OA260: Means NOTHING !!! Go and read up on it and come back to me with your findings . Just because somewhere has a seat for something doesnt mean they dont
31 LTU932: If he had said "stop the advance of islamic fundamentalism", I wouldn't have had a problem. But the way Haider expresses his thought makes it appear
32 Boeing744: People are getting quite beside the point in this thread. YES, many muslim countries do NOT allow freedom of religion! But how, in any way, does that
33 Scorpio: Very well said, and that really is the crux of this whole discussion: people appear to be advocating copying the policies of the very countries they
34 OA260: Maybe the Christian populations in these countries where they are restricted and suffer should have an input in what they think should be done. If Mu
35 ME AVN FAN: - While you possibly overestimate the chance of Muslims in Europe to influence the governments of their countries of origin, not least as they hardly
36 OA260: There is not a problem in Greece with freedom of religion. I attend the Catholic church on many occasion's in Greece and just last Christmas attended
37 ME AVN FAN: - well, the stories differ. Just as elsewhere. Much depends on locality etc. Most of religious intolerance in this world is NOT the gross one which m
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