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Are You Sure You Want Nationalize Healthcare  
User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2707 times:

While many people feel that nationalize healthcare is the way to go, I submit that some of those very people supporting this notion haven't fully thought through the consequences.

Take this NYT article from today.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/21/wo...c71&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

It discusses the issues surrounding a patient who wants to pay for the use of a drug that the British National Health Service doesn't cover but do so out of her pocket. NHS says that she can't if she wants any of her treatment paid for by the NHS.

IMO this raises two issues for Americans -

1. Are we really prepared to turn over drug decision to our government, to determine what drugs they will and will not let us use not because they pose a health or safety risk but simply because they don't want to pay for them?

2. Do you really want a system that prohibits people from using private resources to supplement the level of care they receive? What's next, should airlines be banned from offering premium service?

145 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineArrow From Canada, joined Jun 2002, 2675 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2684 times:
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This issue is playing out in Canada, too, but it has another wrinkle to it. Health care systems are run by the provinces, and for cancer treatments that often means a drug that is approved for use in one province is not approved in another. In my case, both the drugs for my chemo (for leukemia) were covered by the BC government. If I were in Ontario, only one of them would have been covered and I'd have to pay for the other one. It would not have been cheap.

But this is not a reason to revert to private medicine, which would bankrupt everyone in the country and ensure that only the rich could get appropriate care. If I had to pay full price for all my leukemia treatments, or for the pacemaker I have implanted, I'd likely have croaked years ago. And trying to claim these costs through private insurers would be fraught with peril.

There are lots of problems and issues with government-run health care, and lots of anecdotal examples of things that go wrong. But the solution is to fix those problems, not throw out the system. Will the U.S. ever get a national health insurance system? I don't know, and frankly, I don't care. I do know that every Canadian's worst nightmare is being unlucky enough to get really sick while visiting the U.S. I always buy lots of insurance when I travel south.



Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2668 times:



Quoting Pope (Thread starter):
1. Are we really prepared to turn over drug decision to our government, to determine what drugs they will and will not let us use not because they pose a health or safety risk but simply because they don't want to pay for them?

Replace the word government with insurance companies; and what is the difference? Most insurance companies now have lists of prescription medication that they will pay for, and if it's not on the list, you're on your own.


User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2659 times:



Quoting AirCop (Reply 2):
Replace the word government with insurance companies; and what is the difference?

The free market. If I don't like what the insurance company offers me, I can contract with another one.


User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 2646 times:



Quoting Pope (Reply 3):
The free market. If I don't like what the insurance company offers me, I can contract with another one.

Not necessarily, especially if one's employer provides the health care and besides have you seen what health insurance would cost if one went out on the open market to obtain it for their families.


User currently offline767Lover From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 2635 times:

Officials said that allowing Mrs. Hirst and others like her to pay for extra drugs to supplement government care would violate the philosophy of the health service by giving richer patients an unfair advantage over poorer ones.

So their answer is to just let this person die because someone else can't get the treatment? Doesn't sound like a very ethical "philosophy" to me. Plus, it doesn't sound like this person is rich anyway if she is forced to sell her house to pay for the treatment.


For instance, he said, a patient put on a five-month waiting list to see an orthopedic surgeon

Five months? Yikes. Although I guess that's not so bad considering....

In his paper, he also wrote about a 46-year-old woman with breast cancer who paid $250 for a second opinion when the health service refused to provide her with one; an elderly man who spent thousands of dollars on a new hearing aid instead of enduring a yearlong wait on the health service; and a 29-year-old woman who, with her doctor's blessing, bought a three-month supply of Tarceva, a drug to treat pancreatic cancer, for more than $6,000 on the Internet because she could not get it through the N.H.S.

Asked why these were different from cases like Mrs. Hirst's, a spokeswoman for the health service said no officials were available to comment.

The citizens, through the media, should demand an explanation.

As a side note, I wish people such as the reporter for this article would stop referring to it at "free" healthcare. It is not free. It is paid for in advance by the citizens.

(Edited to fix italics)

[Edited 2008-02-21 12:33:17]

User currently onlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8868 posts, RR: 40
Reply 6, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 2625 times:



Quoting AirCop (Reply 4):
and besides have you seen what health insurance would cost if one went out on the open market to obtain it for their families.

That's because businesses get tax credits for offering health insurance through the company while individuals don't have the same benefit. They should, but they don't.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26196 posts, RR: 76
Reply 7, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 2607 times:



Quoting Pope (Thread starter):

2. Do you really want a system that prohibits people from using private resources to supplement the level of care they receive?

No, and the British system doesn't do that.

Quoting Pope (Reply 3):

The free market. If I don't like what the insurance company offers me, I can contract with another one.

And that company will have no interest in covering what actually ails you. The free market has failed with health care.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 6):

That's because businesses get tax credits for offering health insurance through the company while individuals don't have the same benefit. They should, but they don't.

That isn't why, and besides, out of pocket cost is out of pocket cost.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently onlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8868 posts, RR: 40
Reply 8, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 2590 times:



Quoting N1120A (Reply 7):

And that company will have no interest in covering what actually ails you. The free market has failed with health care.

If the company doesn't serve your interests to at least a decent level that company goes bankrupt. And insurance companies have every interest in the world to keep you from being sick.



Quoting N1120A (Reply 7):

That isn't why, and besides, out of pocket cost is out of pocket cost.

Taxes are out of pocket costs. Government doesn't pay for anything without taking it away from you first.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 2588 times:



Quoting N1120A (Reply 7):
No, and the British system doesn't do that.

The article says the exact opposite. Do you have any proof otherwise? Can you cite something that supports your statement?

Quoting AirCop (Reply 4):
Not necessarily, especially if one's employer provides the health care and besides have you seen what health insurance would cost if one went out on the open market to obtain it for their families.

One, you could petition your employer to address a particular area of concern. That happened in my company a couple years ago regarding coverage of diagnostic mamograms (before the federal law changed). We approached our insurer and got a change in our policy.

Two, you could seek alternative employment with an employer whose plan is more generous. At my company we structure our benefits plan to be a really big draw to prospective candidates.


User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 2576 times:



Quoting 767Lover (Reply 5):
So their answer is to just let this person die because someone else can't get the treatment? Doesn't sound like a very ethical "philosophy" to me. Plus, it doesn't sound like this person is rich anyway if she is forced to sell her house to pay for the treatment.

This might be cruel, but perhaps the government is right on this one, at what point either private or public money do you spend trying to keep a person alive? Something like 80% of our health care dollars today are for end of life treatments. The way I read the article even spending the $120,000 her chances of survival is still very slim.


User currently offlineArrow From Canada, joined Jun 2002, 2675 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 2569 times:
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Quoting PPVRA (Reply 6):
And that company will have no interest in covering what actually ails you. The free market has failed with health care.

And countless studies have shown that in terms of cost-benefit across the health care system, the outcomes for nationalized health systems, at least in the developed world, are way ahead of those in the U.S.

It's funny -- when you point out the flaws in the US private health care system, the proponents always argue that there are fixes within the system and that the free market should be allowed to work. But when flaws are pointed out in nationalized systems, those same people will argue that the only way to fix those problems is to scrap the entire system -- never mind that on the whole it performs way better than the private systems and at a fraction of the cost.

This has always been, and always will be, clash of ideologies. The free market advocates can't bear the idea that a government-run program might actually work well and for the best interest of the citizens of the country. And those on the other side would never accept that private medicine might have something useful to offer even within a government-run system.

Personally, I'm glad I'm where I am. Hopefully our system will get the reforms it needs, and ideologues on both sides of the debate will just go away.



Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
User currently onlineScorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 4975 posts, RR: 44
Reply 12, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 2558 times:



Quoting Pope (Thread starter):
It discusses the issues surrounding a patient who wants to pay for the use of a drug that the British National Health Service doesn't cover but do so out of her pocket. NHS says that she can't if she wants any of her treatment paid for by the NHS.

I'm sorry, but exactly how is any of that related to possible universal healthcare in the US? Whoever said that, when you were to introduce UH, it HAS to be EXACTLY the British system?

Quoting Pope (Thread starter):
Do you really want a system that prohibits people from using private resources to supplement the level of care they receive?

Well, if you don't, then you can simply devise a system with UH that DOES still allow people to supplement their care using private resources. Nobody has ever said that the UK system is THE universal 'universal healthcare' system.

Quoting Pope (Reply 3):
The free market. If I don't like what the insurance company offers me, I can contract with another one.

And in several countries with UH, including mine, that is STILL the case.


User currently onlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8868 posts, RR: 40
Reply 13, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 2544 times:



Quoting AirCop (Reply 10):

This might be cruel, but perhaps the government is right on this one, at what point either private or public money do you spend trying to keep a person alive? Something like 80% of our health care dollars today are for end of life treatments. The way I read the article even spending the $120,000 her chances of survival is still very slim.

That's an issue everyone faces, whether socialized or not, and a fair enough one and of course it's true it's a difficult issue. But the issue pointed out is a different one - she tried to pay for herself, but the government said no. Even if she could afford it.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 2542 times:



Quoting AirCop (Reply 10):
This might be cruel, but perhaps the government is right on this one, at what point either private or public money do you spend trying to keep a person alive? Something like 80% of our health care dollars today are for end of life treatments. The way I read the article even spending the $120,000 her chances of survival is still very slim.

I agree 100%. But how many people were protesting a couple of months ago when Aetna wouldn't approve a (liver or kidney?) transplant for a comatose child who had almost no chance of recovering? IIRC, John Edwards made a big deal about this in his campaign.

When government starts making end of life decisions there are going to be a lot of people who aren't going to like it when grandma is pulled off the vent because she's got no realistic chance of recovery.

By the same token, a free market in health care should strive for a rational allocation of resources. Does it make sense to spend $350,000 (the actual amount spent on my father's care the last 3 weeks of his life - die of a rare and highly untreatable form of cancer 10 years ago) or use that same money to provide pre-natal and preventative care to 100 pregnant mothers? I can tell you that if you asked my mother, she would have kept him on the ventilator for 10 years. If you ask my brothers who were 18 and 21 at the time they would have done the same. But I was the one who had the durable medical power of attorney and had to sign the paperwork instructing the hospital to pull the plug. It was both the rational thing to do and what my father told me he wanted. It's one thing when a family has to make that decision. It's another when that decision is made for you by an agent of the government.


User currently offlineMt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6545 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 2545 times:
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Quoting Pope (Reply 9):
Two, you could seek alternative employment with an employer whose plan is more generous.

Like Wal-Mart?



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User currently onlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2523 times:



Quoting Pope (Thread starter):
1. Are we really prepared to turn over drug decision to our government, to determine what drugs they will and will not let us use not because they pose a health or safety risk but simply because they don't want to pay for them?

No, that is why we don't have socialized health care and never will. Once we let government start making medical decisions we are in big trouble.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 1):
This issue is playing out in Canada, too, but it has another wrinkle to it. Health care systems are run by the provinces, and for cancer treatments that often means a drug that is approved for use in one province is not approved in another. In my case, both the drugs for my chemo (for leukemia) were covered by the BC government. If I were in Ontario, only one of them would have been covered and I'd have to pay for the other one. It would not have been cheap.

Perfect example of why this system is severely flawed.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 1):
Will the U.S. ever get a national health insurance system? I

No and even if by somehow some sort of it became available most would use their own money or just keep the health care system in place because the level of socialized medicine is much inferior.


User currently offlineMt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6545 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2523 times:
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Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 16):
Once we let government start making medical decisions we are in big trouble.

How it different from an accountant at Blue Cross / Blue Shield making medical decisions?



Step into my office, baby
User currently offline767Lover From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2518 times:



Quoting AirCop (Reply 10):
The way I read the article even spending the $120,000 her chances of survival is still very slim.

if someone wants to pay their private money for treatment, why should they be stopped?

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 6):
That's because businesses get tax credits for offering health insurance through the company while individuals don't have the same benefit. They should, but they don't.

See IRS Publication 502 for a long list of medical expense deductions available to the individual taxpayer.

http://www.irs.gov/publications/p502/ar02.html


User currently offlineArrow From Canada, joined Jun 2002, 2675 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2515 times:
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Quoting Pope (Reply 14):
It was both the rational thing to do and what my father told me he wanted. It's one thing when a family has to make that decision. It's another when that decision is made for you by an agent of the government.

Agents of the government don't make those decisions. If anything, the government is more inclined to keep them plugged in because their mandate, and a doctor's oath, requires them to preserve life. The family makes those decisions, and people help the matter along by making specific requirements in what are called living wills. To suggest that some bureaucrat roams through the palliative care ward pulling plugs on a cost benefit basis is unfair.



Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
User currently onlineScorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 4975 posts, RR: 44
Reply 20, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2509 times:



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 16):
the level of socialized medicine is much inferior

Not that crap again  Yeah sure

Humor me. Exactly what makes your healthcare system better than mine?


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26196 posts, RR: 76
Reply 21, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2494 times:



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 8):


If the company doesn't serve your interests to at least a decent level that company goes bankrupt.

You place entirely too much faith in such companies.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 8):
And insurance companies have every interest in the world to keep you from being sick.

I'm not talking about people who are healthy. I am talking about those already sick or injured.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 8):

Taxes are out of pocket costs

But they are planned for and paid for in a different way.

Quoting Pope (Reply 9):

The article says the exact opposite. Do you have any proof otherwise? Can you cite something that supports your statement?

Ever heard of The Portland Hospital?



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineFridgmus From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 1439 posts, RR: 11
Reply 22, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2486 times:
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I don't know much about UH in any country, but I don't like what I've heard so far. I've just had arthroscopic knee surgery here in Thailand and I could have easily paid for it out of my own pocket. I am fortunate enough that my company has an overseas policy. One thing I did see was a lot of "Medical Tourists" from the US, UK, Canada and Europe. Also prescription drugs are much cheaper here than in the US, although I can't speak for all types of drugs. And the quality of care was top-notch. The TOTAL cost of my operation and two night hospital stay was barely over $5.000.00 USD. Try beating that in the US!

Could it be that UH plans could drive more and more people to become Medical Tourists? The hospital I went to in Bangkok has Thai physicians trained in the US, UK, Europe and Thailand and I also noticed visiting physicians from all over the world as well. Also it had travel & visa sections, post-operative hotels and even some hospitals have residences at some beach areas.

I have been told that Medical Tourism is promoted by some US Travel Agencies for treatment not only in Thailand, but in India and the Phillippines as well. I've also been told, I don't know how true this might be but, US insurance companies have sent patients overseas due to the lower cost. Second hand info, maybe some of you who are more knowlegeable can verify?

I'm not sold on UH. Maybe in the future, who knows.

My apologies for drifting somewhat off-topic.



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User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26196 posts, RR: 76
Reply 23, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2481 times:



Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 22):
Also prescription drugs are much cheaper here than in the US

They are cheaper in European countries with national health care as well.

Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 22):
Try beating that in the US!

We can't. We spend several times more per capita on health care than in any other country.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2468 times:



Quoting 767Lover (Reply 18):
See IRS Publication 502 for a long list of medical expense deductions available to the individual taxpayer.

To be fair, the taxpayer's deductions are subject to three substantial limitations:

1. The taxpayer must itemize his deductions (only approximately 30% of taxpayers itemize)
2. The total of the eligible deductions must exceed 7.5% of the taxpayer's AGI. That means of the 30% of taxpayers who are eligible to claim any medical expense deduction the first 7.5% of AGI (or $3,000 for a person earning $40,000/yr) is disallowed.
3. Medical insurance premiums are not deductible.

In contrast corporations can expense every penny of medical expense premiums and direct reimbursment of expenses to employees under a self-insured retention plan, subject only to non-discriminatory testing.


25 AirCop : It's alive in the United States, check out the military system; and what do you think medicare is? Last fall, there was a big article on this in the
26 Mt99 : Some insurance companies have been toying with the idea to send patients to India to receive health -care. Travel, accommodations and care would stil
27 767Lover : You mean the following does not state deductibility of medical insurance premiums? You can include in medical expenses insurance premiums you pay for
28 Post contains images AirCop : And then if you're in a lucky group such as retired police officers your premiums for medical insurance and long term care insurance comes right off
29 Pope : It seems that the doctor in the article is paid by the state and is enforcing state policy. No where is it argued that the drug is ineffective OR tha
30 Pope : You're absolutely correct. Instead of looking it up, I was working from memory.
31 RJdxer : Yep, makes a big difference when you can't sue the healthcare provider.
32 N1120A : Where tort deform hasn't been enacted, like in Iowa, they have lower rates of med mal suits and lower insurance premiums.
33 RJdxer : Do you really believe for a moment that a healthcare bill will pass that does not make the government immune from law suits?
34 LTBEWR : There are many issues with having a total 'nationalized' health care system in the USA. Areas of issues can range from privacy, religion, ethics, pers
35 Seb146 : Hear hear! I think it is wrong when I hear stories of people that change jobs but lose health insurance so they or their children have to go without
36 N1120A : The government is already immune from suits. I am betting that the ability to make claims will be subject to the same limitations as the Federal Tort
37 PWM2TXLHopper : I'm not familiar with health care in Belgium, but I am familiar with some of the other countries in Europe. And one thing I like better about health
38 Post contains links N1120A : Oh really? Then why has the NHS pushed for a 48 hour max waiting time to see the doctor? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/2881067.stm http://www
39 Post contains images N229NW : I would like to see a nationalized health care system in the US available at least to those who cannot afford private health care. There are definite
40 PWM2TXLHopper : " target=_blank>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technolog...7.stm I never said anything about the U.K., there's a lot more countries in Europe than the U.K
41 N1120A : Wow, we aren't buying into stereotypes or anything. Aside from this, there are multiple problems with your post. First, we weren't talking about dent
42 Post contains links PWM2TXLHopper : Quoting N1120A (Reply 41): Wow, we aren't buying into stereotypes or anything. I've met enough English to confirm this isn't a stereotype! (Perhaps it
43 Arrow : Nice comment ... But you spoke to soon.
44 Scorpio : Same here. Waiting lists are non-existant here. We pay, on average, half of what you pay for healthcare. And that includes taxes. See, that's an argu
45 ArniePie : True , if you want to take House md, ER, Chicago Hope and all the other excellent tv series as every day fact ,you might be right. However in the rea
46 Post contains links 767Lover : Not in the experience of my relatives who live there. My poor elderly aunt had to wait for over 6 months for a hip replacement. How so? The average B
47 Antdenatale : Personally, I think our National Health Service is one of the best in the world. If I need to see a Doctor, in most cases I can call in the morning an
48 Baroque : Seems a fair cop gov!! Additionally, if you are not happy with your gov, you get to vote it out, ever tried to persuade an insurance company of anyth
49 767Lover : That would not be the case with most PPO systems. I go to specialists all the time yet haven't had a full medical physical in several years. (And I h
50 AGM100 : Hopefully flu season is just about over ... but it has been a bad one. I have been in more hospitals in the past month and in the past 2 years. My thr
51 Pope : I find that shocking. A few day's wait for emergency surgery seems unacceptable. My wife had a ruptured ovarian cyst and was in surgery 4 hours after
52 767Lover : Many walk-in urgent care facilities are fantastic. My mother (who is on Medicare) was taken to one on a Saturday and got complete bloodwork and XRays
53 MD11Engineer : Example from Germany: I'm currently at home, curing a flu. Additionally, two days ago, I accidentally poured a pot of boiling water on my right foot.
54 767Lover : I think if the insurance companies were required to eliminate the "pre-existing conditions" rule, it will solve a lot of the problems. It would also
55 767Lover : How is this different from the US? I guess because it's compulsory?
56 Pope : Does anyone really know what the pre-existing coverage rule is? The rule applies when you go from a period where you don't have insurance to one wher
57 Arrow : You're an American citizen, and Baroque (I think!) is not. Contrast his experience in the US with mine in Cairns, Australia. I got a god-awful case o
58 767Lover : What I am referring to is this: I have a history of migraines. Some insurance providers will not insure me for any migraine treatments (doctor visits
59 Post contains images AGM100 : Everyone has had a bad experience with health care at some point I am sure. Hillary and the Dems are simply useing it for a "heart string issue" It is
60 Pope : I can tell you that if you came to work for my company (we have BCBS) the condition would be covered 100% from day 1 as long as there was no prior ga
61 767Lover : If these are myths than they are being propagated by the media in those countries (not just "right wing" media but liberal media as well), as well as
62 AGM100 : My nephew going to college and working nights .. he can not afford car insurance and it is really a big problem. Will the governemnt next want to pay
63 MD11Engineer : Yes. As long as you are employed, there is no excuse not to have medical insurance. It is also not tied to the fortunes of the employing company. Law
64 Scorpio : It isn't really. I guess that was the point he was trying to make, i.e. that socialised healthcare doesn't have to mean 'inferior' service and endles
65 767Lover : I have never looked into BCBS, I didn't know that was the case. Although I am wondering if this is because yours is a group plan? I am referring to a
66 AGM100 : When it applies to the entire US it does. Trying to cover 400 million people and fit all the needs into a box devised by Washington bureaucrats will
67 767Lover : What I don't think people realize is this: Look at how much $ the average family (singles included) has tied up in car payments. Many people are payi
68 MD11Engineer : I can imagine that such a situation could happen if there is another, more life threatening emergency at the same time and the OR is still occupied.
69 Post contains links Pope : Take a look at http://www.ecouncil.org/hippa.htm the section entitled Group Health Plan Portability Limits on Pre-existing Condition Exclusions. It s
70 Baroque : Glad to hear of that Arrow, both from the point of view of your personal salvation and as an indication that all is not lost in our system. Both Qld
71 Post contains links LH423 : You wouldn't have had any problem since in most single-payer systems you never see any kind of hospital bill. Fact is, I'm not out to change people's
72 Scorpio : Which is why I said earlier that there's nothing stopping you from organising things at a state level. It's based on a per-capita spending on healthc
73 767Lover : Yes, I know. But what are the components included in "spending" (i.e., are they factoring in the cost of property taxes of the facility, employment c
74 Scorpio : I believe it includes all of those.
75 Post contains images N1120A : That is almost certainly true. I actually lived in the country. Their teeth are a lot better than you claim. If you think Canada is either socialist
76 N1120A : That is the way things are done in Canada, at the provincial level, and it would actually be the ideal way of doing things here in the US.
77 Post contains links RJdxer : Not if it operates this way. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_Rf42zNl9U I guess I just have to wonder why it is that you are to lazy to want to pay y
78 Post contains images AGM100 : They also build great cars !! Not to sound self hating .. but the Germans and the Japanese are smarter than us ! The AZ border patrol estimates 375,0
79 N1120A : I'm too lazy to pay my own way? I pay my own way. I pay my taxes and shell out of pocket for health insurance. Luckily, I can afford it. Doesn't mean
80 RJdxer : And they are not. For the truly indigent there are already programs in place. Being able to provide good health insurance should be one of several fa
81 AGM100 : I would say that it may be a bit of luck ,, bust mostly it would be hard work , risk taking and responsible living. Right ? More everyday since the l
82 N1120A : Programs that don't come close to what they actually need, provide substandard care and cost too much money. One, lots of very hard working people vi
83 AGM100 : I will assume your parents did not hit the lottery or win a law suit for spilling hot coffee on their laps. N1120 dont get me wrong I wish everyone c
84 N1120A : Oh goodness, not this again. You have apparently not read much about that case. No they didn't, and they still support national health care. And that
85 Scorpio : It is in many other countries. And for less money too!
86 MD11Engineer : Why don't do it like the Irish: A mandatory basic level of health care for everybody, which is for employees financed through their compulsory PRSI (
87 767Lover : I see. So my mother who has Alzheimer's should be seen and treated by a GP who has not devoted his or her practice to Alzheimer's treatment and care,
88 N1120A : Argh. I said absolutely nothing about eliminating specialists completely. Where did you get that? According to the IRS, a person making $40,000 a yea
89 Flighty : Right, that's very sensible. Our country is badly run in general, although wealthy. This isn't hard. We just make it difficult. The Irish system is n
90 PPVRA : Good lord, 1 day away and we are reaching 100 posts. . . Regardless, U.S. health care is in the hands of HMOs and has been for decades. . . HMOs do no
91 AGM100 : Not talking necessarily about insurance health plans ... I am talking about health care facilities , doctors , equipment , labs , staff and modern te
92 N1120A : What are you talking about? The government isn't paying patient's bills. Using that reasoning, health care in the US would be the cheapest in the ind
93 RJdxer : Programs that give decent and adequate basic care, which is all someone below the poverty line should expect. Better health care is an incentive in a
94 N1120A : Wait a second? So people should live longer and healthier lives as an incentive to making more money? Wow. You mean once the insurance companies spun
95 PPVRA : Whether it's directly or indirectly, such as tax credits as pointed out in reply 27, they are paying. You are murdering the principle the free market
96 Post contains links 767Lover : 1) First, it is a flat rate of $4386.25, not $4220 (see http://www.irs.gov/formspubs/article/0,,id=164272,00.html 2) Where do you think the flat rate
97 AGM100 : Of course not , but not one or 2 in every city of any size . I am sure their are great facilities in Paris , Ottawa , London , Tokyo , Toronto ... Bu
98 Mortyman : Michael Moore on Norwegian healthcare and justice Scene cut from his movie sicko: SICKO - Michael Moore Cut This Scene (No One Would Believe) :
99 RJdxer : What? You missed the point. No, once people got a look at it and things like private practices would be outlawed. I don't worry about other countries
100 PPVRA : Just out of interest, how would you explain the higher costs in the U.S.? After all, on either side of the Atlantic and on either system, you are dea
101 N1120A : I don't think I did. Which was never true. Again, like I have said countless times, how do you explain Iowa? Most of that "entitlement" is funded sep
102 RJdxer : Yes you did. Just one of the multitude of reasons to not be below the poverty line is having a good job that pays well in both money and benefits, su
103 Mike89406 : While I believe that the the US is need of a major overhaul of the healthcare system I don't necessary believe that a NHS or national Healthcare Syste
104 Post contains links N1120A : No, I am interpreting it as saying that those who can't afford better health care don't deserve to have the kind of advanced care that can help them
105 Roadrunner165 : Are You Sure You Want Nationalize Healthcare? Yes Please and Thank You.
106 767Lover : Let's get back to the original subject matter of the thread: Should a government healthcare system prohibit* citizens from being able to pay outright
107 Post contains images Baroque : But only because it is so often true. These Irish, they are totally wrecking a whole genre of jokes about them being so damned sensible and efficient
108 RJdxer : Nor should they deserve it. Especially if they smoked, ate the wrong kinds of foods, or used drugs and/or alcohol to excess. Why should I have to pay
109 N1120A : What does that have to do with people being poor necessarily? Nothing. David Crosby can afford to pay for his liver. Medical schools reject tons of p
110 RJdxer : Again, the government does not have a resposibility to help anyone live a longer life. If you can point out where in the Constitution that is express
111 AGM100 : I know , this may work with the drug companies ... but will it work for doctors who .. now work for the government ? Ya I guess it would. We will hav
112 Post contains links N1120A : The government has the responsibility to tax and spend for the general welfare. Health is part of the general welfare. Well, lets see. Treaties occup
113 RJdxer : According to whom? It speaks to the general welfare, but makes no mention whether it means health, or paving roads. I choose to believe it means pavi
114 LTBEWR : Three other issues that will have to be dealt with as to a 'nationalized' healthcare in the USA that significantly add to the costs here. The include:
115 PeterPuck : Canadians live on the average a full two years longer than Americans (despite drinking more beer). Hard to argue with the facts.
116 VonRichtofen : I live in Calgary. Population a little over 1 million. We have 4 large hospitals and a 5th is under construction. Not to mention several specialist c
117 RJdxer : I don't see what that has to do with accesibility to health care. Especially when you compare it to several other countries that have universal healt
118 Post contains links N1120A : Road paving wasn't exactly at the height of technology or priority in the late 18th century. Again, we are talking about rights you claim don't exist
119 Post contains links PPVRA : This is a response from an unanimous user at another forum about what JFK would think about his party today, including a note about socialized health
120 Post contains images Halls120 : Correct. After a several month wait, of course, if you use the UK NHS. And before you disagree, please see the post below. I agree that we need to do
121 RJdxer : But that is government working for the general welfare as opposed to individual welfare which is what universal health care is. That's correct, the r
122 RJdxer : If it is where is my equal right to also drive a Ferrari? And why isn't the government providing one?
123 N1120A : Again, if you have an acute need, you don't wait I think the state governments, if given the right funding and guidelines, can. The right to health i
124 Post contains links RJdxer : Individually and we are individually responsible for it. I have the right of free speech but I cannot practice it universally, nor will the governmen
125 N1120A : Again, tax and spend for the general welfare. Freedom of speech, as a fundamental right, cannot be abridged. The only way to restrict speech, or any
126 Post contains images Halls120 : I'd prefer a BMW 5 series. When I do I get it? i'd like you to tell my friend in the UK that. She had to wait six months for a hip replacement in the
127 Post contains links 767Lover : It's interesting to note that in the UK in 1997, one of the goals of the newly installed government was that nobody should have to wait more than 18 m
128 Baroque : Happy to agree provided we first have a short session on what "fair" might mean. If it is what fair sort of meant circa 1980, OK. If it is what fair
129 ArniePie : You point to a real existing problem in the UK (and as far as I know also in the Netherlands and Canada ) when you talk about waiting times. You're a
130 Post contains links 767Lover : Really? That is not how it is presented in the Telegraph article I posted above. The waiting times were initiated due to funding issues. Are you sugg
131 Baroque : Interesting and believable. How did it come about? My prejudiced answer would be putting the operational research folk in "to optimize the system". O
132 AGM100 : Of course not ... but I have lived in Europe and I understand the differences. I am not saying that the healthcare systems their are inferior to ours
133 Post contains images N1120A : You can afford that. I never said that it was specifically in the Constitution. What I said that, since this is codified by treaty, absent express Co
134 Halls120 : Fair means that every citizen has to pay something - even if it is a token amount - for their healthcare. I believe every citizen should pay taxes, e
135 Post contains images ArniePie : That's exactly my point, in some cases in some countries (the UK being one of them ) "managers" made the brilliant(?) assumption that you can preset
136 RJdxer : Again, where is "general welfare" defined as social programs? I still maintain that you have a right to health, but that does not equate into healthc
137 Baroque : I am sure that you and I being reasonable folk could work this out quickly and "fairly", the trouble seems to arise when you get ideologues such as H
138 N1120A : Every citizen does pay taxes, in some form. Fundamentally, any sort of taxation can fit a definition of "income redistribution". Again, no one is say
139 RJdxer : No it wasn't. Everywhere. The whole Constitution is based on limiting what government can do. Good luck. The first amendment is spelled out quite cle
140 N1120A : Again, the line is very explicit. The Amendments are there to limit what government can do. The Articles spell out the powers and functions of govern
141 767Lover : I just had an annual visit with my doctor today and we were talking about the issue of healthcare. My doc, who is a very liberal guy, said that if we
142 N1120A : Bull. Perhaps fewer elective procedures, but not real care. The reason the elderly buy online is because of the massive cost of prescriptions. In Nor
143 RJdxer : They also spell out the limits of government. According to the articles you linked to that was all they needed to get the procedure done, the rest co
144 Post contains images Halls120 : Which one of those conventions require the federal government to impose mandatory health care coverage? It wouldn't be the ICESCR. It only requires s
145 Post contains links 767Lover : No bull. For example, Britain's NHS plan does not cover the newer drug protocol my mother is on for Alzheimer's. Here in the US she gets it, no probl
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