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Obamas Claims About Army Platoon?  
User currently offlineAgill From Sweden, joined Feb 2004, 1012 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2008 times:



Are they doing stuff like this or is Senator Obama just making this stuff up? That US troops need to take weapons from talebans because they lack ammunition seems very strange.

62 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8965 posts, RR: 24
Reply 1, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1951 times:

Sounds fishy. First of all, how come a platoon-sized unit is split up, a few men to Iraq, and and a few elsewhere? Small units like that stay together in every case I can think of. And as far as having to use captured ammo, that stinks pretty bad too. I would ask Obama for backup.


Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineAgill From Sweden, joined Feb 2004, 1012 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1929 times:



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
Sounds fishy

Something about the way he tells it too. Sounds a bit like my niece when she's making up some story. "And then...I...saw..... ehhmm... a bear... that was.. eating.. a... banana"


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14140 posts, RR: 62
Reply 3, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1926 times:



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
And as far as having to use captured ammo, that stinks pretty bad too.

This has happened before, when a particular unit ran out of ammo for their own weapons while in battle (with no way to resupply them). I know of a British army company at German-Dutch border in 1945, which faced a German armoured attack and had no anti-tank weapons of their own left. A few days before they had captured a German ammo dump full of German Panzerfaust recoilless AT guns and used them instead with good success to hold off the German tanks.
This unit had a few (German and Austrian born refugee) members of 3 troop 10 Interallied Commando attached (mainly for interrogating prisoners and reconnaissance), who translated the instructions and taught the ordinary Tommies how to use those Panzerfausts.

Jan


User currently offlineCO777ER From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 691 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1921 times:

I like how it's Bush's fault.

User currently offlineAgill From Sweden, joined Feb 2004, 1012 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1909 times:



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 3):
This has happened before

No doubt it has happened before, the question was if it's a problem in the US army now.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14140 posts, RR: 62
Reply 6, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1905 times:



Quoting Agill (Reply 5):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 3):
This has happened before

No doubt it has happened before, the question was if it's a problem in the US army now.

I'm quite sure that there happened battle situations, where a platoon sized unit ran out off ammo during battle and had to use captured AK-47's and RPG's instead until they got resupplied, but with all the reputation the US military have concerning logistics, I doubt that it would be a regular occurance. This is the one thing the US always excelled: Plenty of everything.

Jan


User currently offlineMt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6678 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1895 times:
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Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 6):
. This is the one thing the US always excelled: Plenty of everything.

Except armored Humvees'...



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 17
Reply 8, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1889 times:



Quoting Agill (Reply 2):
Something about the way he tells it too. Sounds a bit like my niece when she's making up some story. "And then...I...saw..... ehhmm... a bear... that was.. eating.. a... banana"

Sounded sort of like Harry Reids Tommy boy story ... " Tommy said to me.... dont let my mother die Mr Reid .. "



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7438 posts, RR: 50
Reply 9, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1864 times:
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Quoting CO777ER (Reply 4):
I like how it's Bush's fault.

It always Bush's fault.

This will be the first of many whoppers from this guy. Here he is, telling us about the testimony from an anonymous source, about an anonymous Army platoon in dire straits with no weapons, and having to resort some outrageously clandestine war tactics. Next we'll hear about an anonymous soldier confiding in Senator Obama about war atrocities of Haditha-like proportions. And of course no one in the mainstream media will ask him for proof of these claims and his supporters will eat this stuff up. Let's see some evidence of this. Stay tuned.



Made from jets!
User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1863 times:

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 7):
Except armored Humvees'...

I never saw a single armored HMMWV while I was in the service. 1995-2001. They didn't exist in any numbers. The doors were nylon mesh. Let me tell you, not fun in the winter. The HMMWV was never intended or designed to be an armored combat vehicle. It's a general purpose utility vehicle. No one seems to have noticed that the GPs they replaced weren't armored either.    I'm still not sure why the Army hasn't taken a heavy frame like the LAV, put a quad 20mm cannon turret on the sucker and used that as a counter-insurgency/patrol vehicle.

There may be some truth to what Obama says. There are units that operate as fragmented platoons. Of course, those are all SPECOPS units. And they may use local firearms, not because US firearms are unobtainable but because using native weapons has certain operational advantages.

I think his story is a load of   

[Edited 2008-02-22 11:42:58]

User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8965 posts, RR: 24
Reply 11, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1814 times:



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 3):
This has happened before, when a particular unit ran out of ammo for their own weapons while in battle

That's understandable in a sustained, pitched battle, where units can be completely cut off for days or weeks. But as far as I know, such battles have not happened with the US military since Korea, or maybe Vietnam.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineThreeIfByAir From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 712 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1801 times:

I don't think Obama has the story's details all there. And, I don't understand why he is talking about this in a debate with Clinton.

Perhaps the platoon was undermanned becaue new troops were filling units destined for Iraq, but I can't imagine breaking regular units apart is a normal occurance.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 10):
There may be some truth to what Obama says. There are units that operate as fragmented platoons. Of course, those are all SPECOPS units. And they may use local firearms, not because US firearms are unobtainable but because using native weapons has certain operational advantages.

 checkmark 

Also, weapons break down, especially in hostile environments like Afghanistan. Helicopters also break down - no way to deliver supplies. Perhaps this unit was in such a situation - there's not a lot that any president can do in the short term. More helicopters, but that takes time and $$$$.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 11):
That's understandable in a sustained, pitched battle, where units can be completely cut off for days or weeks. But as far as I know, such battles have not happened with the US military since Korea, or maybe Vietnam.

Not sure what news you have been reading - there have been plenty of gun battles in Afghanistan, not to mention Vietnam. Not weeks long, of course, but that doesn't matter. When units are on patrol, carrying their own ammo, they don't have days or weeks worth packed away in the truck. A few hours worth in a sustained firefight, maybe. In Afghanistan, you're basically cut off if a helicopter can't reach you, which is a whole lot of territory.


User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 17
Reply 13, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1797 times:



Quoting ThreeIfByAir (Reply 12):
And, I don't understand why he is talking about this in a debate with Clinton.

He played into her hands last night ... she forced him to shed the rock star and don the politician ... never count the Clinton's out man. Obama needs to stay with the .. Change .. want some change routine .. keep it light keep it fresh and dont ever talk about the 1st Cav .. please dont talk about the 1st Cav like he know what the hell their about .. please



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8965 posts, RR: 24
Reply 14, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1763 times:



Quoting ThreeIfByAir (Reply 12):
Not sure what news you have been reading - there have been plenty of gun battles in Afghanistan, not to mention Vietnam. Not weeks long, of course, but that doesn't matter. When units are on patrol, carrying their own ammo, they don't have days or weeks worth packed away in the truck. A few hours worth in a sustained firefight, maybe. In Afghanistan, you're basically cut off if a helicopter can't reach you, which is a whole lot of territory.

Gun battles, yes, but battles where US forces were cut off for so long from supply lines that they had to scavange for ammo? I can understand that occasionally (very occasionally) happening with small unit patrols that found themselves in some unsuspected crap, but Obama is clearly implying that this is happening on a regular basis - that troops are being sent into battle with less-than-full ammo loads because of shortages.

Unless Obama can come up with some support for this, I'm afraid I have to respond by calling Obama a liar.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineTsaord From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1762 times:

Well the Pentagon is on it.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080223/..._nm/usa_politics_obama_pentagon_dc


User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7438 posts, RR: 50
Reply 16, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 1718 times:
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This oughta be good.



Made from jets!
User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1709 times:



Quoting Agill (Thread starter):
That US troops need to take weapons from talebans because they lack ammunition seems very strange.

Yes and no.

Do we have an ammo shortage? No.

Are there moments where troops use non-US issued ammo to fight? Yes.

The whole point is to survive, while maintaining the fight. Sometimes it's easier to grab the nearest dropped AK, than expose yourself to run back to the HMMWV for more ammo. But don't forget, insurgents typically don't carry a large amount of ammo on them. Typically they'll have one, maybe two, clips of ammo. They'll pop out from around their hiding position, spray a few poorly aimed bursts, and run. So scavenging from insurgents isn't a guaranteed gold mine! Also, don't forget that they're firing a 7.62 round, while we fire a 5.56.

But yes, soldiers are resourceful people. If they're engaged with the enemy, they're not going to break contact because they're running low on ammo. They'll do what they have to do, in order to stay alive and kill the enemy.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 7):

Except armored Humvees'...

Give me a fucking break. The HMMWV was never intended to be a frontline combat vehicle. No one could have foresaw the need for making it into a battle wagon. Throughout the history of warfare, combat realities have dictated equipment needs.

You will never have an invincible combat vehicle. Insurgents have even taken out M1A2 Abram tanks. Are you going to give us shit for not having better armored tanks!?  crazy 

Quoting ThreeIfByAir (Reply 12):
Perhaps the platoon was undermanned becaue new troops were filling units destined for Iraq, but I can't imagine breaking regular units apart is a normal occurance.

That's not how it works.

The Army deploys BCTs to specific combat theaters, and the troops are not pulled from one to another to augment each other. Units scheduled to go to Afghanistan go to Afghanistan, and units going to Iraq go to Iraq. You won't pull companies, let alone platoons from BCTs in Afghanistan to go to Iraq.

-UH60


User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12185 posts, RR: 51
Reply 18, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1695 times:



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 7):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 6):
. This is the one thing the US always excelled: Plenty of everything.

Except armored Humvees'...

In 2003, there was no requirement for "up-armored" Humvees in Afghanistan.

Quoting ThreeIfByAir (Reply 12):
I don't think Obama has the story's details all there.

That's because he hasn't made up all the details, yet

Quoting ThreeIfByAir (Reply 12):
Also, weapons break down, especially in hostile environments like Afghanistan

In a platoon, one or two, maybe. I'll even double that (though that doesn't happen), but Obama implied all the weapons broke. That is a lie.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14140 posts, RR: 62
Reply 19, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1676 times:



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 10):
And they may use local firearms, not because US firearms are unobtainable but because using native weapons has certain operational advantages.

Advantages and disadvantages. Different firearms have distinctive sounds, an AK-47 sounds different from an M-16 and a Bren gun sounds different from an MG-42.
The advantage for special ops troops is that if they are using enemy guns somewhere in enemy territory behind the frontline, they are not giving away their presence by the noise of their weapons. On the other hand in the frontline Schuetze Arsch (Private @rse, German equivalent of Tommy Tentpeg) might think that every AK-47 he hears just MUST belong to an enemy and accordingly will open fire, leading to blue on blue incidents.
But, back to WW2, in Russia it was quite common for German soldiers to dump their MP-40 (in English speaking countries falsely known as Schmeisser), which was prone to jam at the slightest ingress of dirt, and get themselves a captured Russian PPsH or PPS. Russian semiautomatic rifles were also very popular (SVT-41). The German army actually started to rebarrel captured PPsH submachine guns to 9mm PARA to be used with MP-40 magazines, but the original proved to be more popular and Russian ammo was readily available.

BTW, during the war the German military used huge amounts of captured weaponry, for example whole divisional artillery units in Northern Africa were equipped with captured British 25Pdr. gun-howitzers and at some time the whole Africa Corps was running on captured British trucks. On the other hand, the British made lots of use off captured Italian and German vehicles. Everything was used, (I have a book about it), from smallarms to tanks and ships.

Jan


User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 17
Reply 20, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1653 times:



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 17):
The Army deploys BCTs to specific combat theaters, and the troops are not pulled from one to another to augment each other. Units scheduled to go to Afghanistan go to Afghanistan, and units going to Iraq go to Iraq. You won't pull companies, let alone platoons from BCTs in Afghanistan to go to Iraq.

Well IMO ... that pretty much flushes Mr.Obamas little moment as commander in chief down the drain. Sad thing is.... how many people out their believe him ....

I really was hoping in a way that he had actually spoke to guys from 1st Cav and had gotten down with the program. He Probably had a Latte with some battalion press spokesman or something....



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 21, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1636 times:



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 7):
Except armored Humvees'...

They had them....just not armored enough to defeat IEDs. They were intended to defend against light MG fire as well as shrapnel. Not direct rocket fire nor underside mines.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 10):
I never saw a single armored HMMWV while I was in the service. 1995-2001. They didn't exist in any numbers

I think that you may be forgetting all those MP and TOW2 vehicles which had Kevlar and aluminum armor which did what I described above. The gun and TOW2 vehicles had armor....they just aren't convoy vehicles.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 17):
Are there moments where troops use non-US issued ammo to fight? Yes.

The whole point is to survive, while maintaining the fight. Sometimes it's easier to grab the nearest dropped AK, than expose yourself to run back to the HMMWV for more ammo

I don't think that anyone commenting here has any infantry experience. You can only carry so much ammunition before you get bogged down. UH60 is entirely correct in that it's alot easier to pick up a dropped AK and pull the ammo off its former owner than it is to go back for more during a firefight, and it's alot better to use what's available when you run out of ammo because you left carrying only your basic load and got cut off from easy re-supply.

The Army is huge, so I'll bet that there's been a few instances of units running out of ammo due to supply chain issues or poor planning, or even because they used so much more than they planned on a day.....but if anyone needs ammunition it's available and will be delivered by ground vehicle, aircraft or freaking 11B SLE if that's what it takes.

Senator Obama is using some apocryphal story to make a point that I'm certain he believes, but he's not ever been around the Army and doesn't really know what he's talking about.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 17):
The HMMWV was never intended to be a frontline combat vehicle.

Well, in some ways they tried to use it as such, especially during the wave of "light" infantry division mania. The wanted to make the TLAT units first line of defense against tanks using mobility and speed as the primary means of defense as opposed to armor. All the armor on the Humvees (again) was intended to do was defend against light small arms fire and shrapnel as from a hand grenade or small mortar near miss. Not against direct heavy MG fire or rocketry.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1612 times:



Quoting ThreeIfByAir (Reply 12):
I don't think Obama has the story's details all there.

There's an understatement . . .

Quoting DL021 (Reply 21):
Senator Obama is using some apocryphal story to make a point that I'm certain he believes, but he's not ever been around the Army and doesn't really know what he's talking about.

At the end of the day, this is the bottom line . . .

More Arm Chair General  redflag .

"President" Obama will be dangerous for the military . . . much more dangerous than his Democrat predecessor . . .

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 17):
The whole point is to survive, while maintaining the fight. Sometimes it's easier to grab the nearest dropped AK, than expose yourself to run back to the HMMWV for more ammo.

If your Hummer is still in one piece . . .

Quoting DL021 (Reply 21):
I don't think that anyone commenting here has any infantry experience.

You get that impression don't ya  sarcastic 


User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 4071 posts, RR: 30
Reply 23, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1596 times:



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 10):
And they may use local firearms, not because US firearms are unobtainable but because using native weapons has certain operational advantages.

Well, the M-16, has a terrible record of jamming if not properly maintained, and the dusty environment in Afghanistan and Iraq can't be of much help. Do any of you think this could just be the case of one unit using AKs out of personal preference, because they believe them to be more suitable for the environment? As MD11Engineer said, it wouldn't be the first time this happened.



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineCaptOveur From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1575 times:



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 7):
Except armored Humvees'...

You do know those are a new invention and you can't just wave a magic wand and get 10,000 of anything that large and complex.

Bullets on the other hand take virtually no time to make. I can't imagine our military running short on ammunition- even the more expensive types (like multi-million dollar per shot SM-3 missiles)

the increased weight of adding armor to an unarmored vehicle (essentially a Jeep replacement) caused some other issues- like roll over problems because the CG shifted quite a bit.


25 DL021 : I gotta say that reading how I wrote that I may have made it seem that combat experience by other branches is not worthy or valorous, and that flat w
26 ANCFlyer : I didn't take it that way at all . . . don't think anyone else did either. . . . Once you get your truck shot from underneath you, or you bail outta
27 Dreadnought : I don't think there is any argument about that. A man can't walk around carrying thousands of rounds. What Obama clearly said however is that men are
28 MD11Engineer : Definitely does not count as combat experience: With our living history group we tried some physical activity (fast marches over distances of 15-25 k
29 StealthZ : Whilst not really related to the Senator's comments. A thought crossed my mind about picking up an AK-47 and it's ammo and using it... a side benefit
30 DL021 : and cooks and bakers, too.....
31 L-188 : True, but I doubt that is a primary concern. I know a lot of tankers and truck drivers wanted the shorter AK-47's for use out of the cabs of the truc
32 StealthZ : And at the risk of again hijacking the thread, isn't that the very reason Comrade K invented the thing in the first place? Agreed, Cheers
33 MDorBust : What paperwork do I need to file to retroactively have kevlar doors added to the MP HMMWVs we operated? Of course, our vehicles consisted of whatever
34 UH60FtRucker : I don't think Ian was saying that all MP HMMWVs were equipped with Kevlar and aluminum armor, but that the ones serving in Light Infantry Divisions,
35 KC135TopBoom : Since Obama cannot back up this accusation, I believe he made it up to help his anti-war and pro-surrender positions.
36 UH60FtRucker : I'll be perfectly honest. I like the guy. He's extremely well spoken, and his message is something we haven't heard in over two decades. His positive
37 WesternA318 : I'm sure this'll be on oprah here soon...
38 Post contains images Klaus : And a certain disastrous decision made in 2002/2003 has absolutely nothing to do with it, even though it was entirely deliberate?
39 MD11Engineer : Maybe he is just misinformed. After all, he largely depends on what his advisers are telling him. I understand also that outside a few garrison towns
40 UH60FtRucker : **sigh** No Klaus, you're obviously not privy to the events that I was referring too. I'm sorry - I know this breaks your heart - but I was not openi
41 Klaus : I have no doubt that there were and still are problems with planning, administration and in many other areas. There is also an obvious tendency for t
42 Dreadnought : Because they are men, and don't complain when they are told to do a job. It is not their place to decide whether or not to perform a mission (other t
43 Klaus : No. But when we're talking about the wider issues - such as the politial decisions behind the current state of the armed forces - in the role as a so
44 MDorBust : Oh I know what he was saying. After all, when was the last time you ever saw a division in the field where all of the equipment was exactly what it w
45 DL021 : That's quite possibly the least heterosexual thing you've ever said. I feel dirty. As far as Light Infantry Divisions.....well, in the period where o
46 MD11Engineer : Ian, But concering Sen. Obama, wouldn't it make sense if somebody in the know would take the senator to the side and quietly tell him that he was talk
47 UH60FtRucker : I am simply not interested in letting you make yet another thread into a battleground over Iraq. You do this far too often. I'll try and continue to
48 DL021 : Jan, Of course it would. But it's unlikely to happen anytime soon. Most of the people around him will be fairly anti-military in attitude (although t
49 Post contains links AirCop : http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...itics/p093918S89.DTL&type=politics Looks like based on Gen. Casey testimony before Congress today (2/26) that O
50 Post contains links Mt99 : How about a Army chief of staff Gen. George Casey? "Army chief of staff Gen. George Casey, testifying on troop strain before the Senate Armed Forces
51 ANCFlyer : There IS a shortage of military,. courtesy of Bush 1 and Slick willie . . . Anyone can't figure that out, well . . . you need to submit to a Urinalysi
52 L-188 : The two most overused buzz words in the 1990's, "Force Multiplier" Thanks Rummy!
53 MDorBust : Yeah, how about what Gen. Casey says. How about the part CNN left out of the AP news copy?
54 Dreadnought : In other words, like in any organization the size and scope of the Army out in the field, there will ocasionally be some screwups, but there is no ch
55 KC135TopBoom : Being a Republican, I agree with you. But, as far as the Democrats were concerned during the debates over up-armored vehicles back in 2004-2005. Prot
56 DavestanKSAN : So your bias gets in the way with your actual judgement? What has Sen. Obama said or done to make you think that? His work with veterans has actually
57 KC135TopBoom : Gen. Casey said he has no reason to doubt Senator Obama (he cannot say publicly that Obama either made it all up, or embellished the story), nor did
58 DavestanKSAN : From his website: As a member of the U.S. Senate Committee on Veterans' Affairs, Obama passed legislation to improve care and slash red tape for our
59 KC135TopBoom : A single Senator passes no laws. They are bills he/she may introduce until the President signs them into law. What red tape was keeping wounded veter
60 Post contains links KC135TopBoom : Go to this link. At the bottom of the first paragraph is the four links to her thesis. It is 96 pages, the title of her thesis is "Princeton-Educated
61 AirCop : Whoever the 44th President is will be facing huge problems caused by this current administration and the economy in general. Veteran affairs: Don't e
62 Post contains links and images DavestanKSAN : I see. So President Bush is the one we should be thanking here. How utterly predictable you would stoop to that level. You logic is absolutely flawed
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