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EU Fines Microsoft Again, This Time US$1.3 Billion  
User currently offlineAA7295 From Australia, joined Aug 2007, 620 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 6 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3103 times:

http://money.cnn.com/2008/02/27/tech...htm?postversion=2008022706?cnn=yes

What are your thoughts?

119 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24927 posts, RR: 56
Reply 1, posted (6 years 6 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3098 times:

EU stuck up their own arse again.


When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2148 posts, RR: 16
Reply 2, posted (6 years 6 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3072 times:



Quoting AA7295 (Thread starter):
What are your thoughts?

Wow.. I'm very impressed. The whole US court system tried this back in the day, but failed. Microsoft got a slap on the wrist in the US.

Enter the EU. Enter hefty billion dollar fines and restrictions for Microsoft.

The EU is single-handedly doing what needed to be done to prevent further abuse of the monopoly-position Microsoft has held the last years. What is accepted by the EU serves as precedence elsewhere.

It's moments like this that prove that the EU isn't just a good idea, it is ingenious.

saludos

Asturias



Tonight we fly
User currently offlineA380US From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2358 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 6 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3056 times:

THAT IS A LOT OF MONEY!!
But how did there stock do fine today?



www.JandACosmetics.com
User currently offlineSingapore_Air From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13742 posts, RR: 19
Reply 4, posted (6 years 6 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3041 times:

I'm not that amused by the Microsoft witchunt.

I am satisfied with their products. From the purely consumer side, I haven't detected anything that would scream abuse of monopoly power thus far.



Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
User currently offlineMhodgson From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2002, 5047 posts, RR: 25
Reply 5, posted (6 years 6 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3027 times:

Seems an odd monopoly to have, when Linux and Apple are gaining popularity all the time!


No trees were harmed by this message. However, several million electrons were terribly inconvenienced
User currently offlineNewark777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 9348 posts, RR: 30
Reply 6, posted (6 years 6 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3014 times:



Quoting A380US (Reply 3):
But how did there stock do fine today?

The expected decision might have been priced into the market already, or the analysts feel it won't affect them too badly.



Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (6 years 6 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2961 times:

Quoting A380US (Reply 3):
THAT IS A LOT OF MONEY!!
But how did there stock do fine today?

The fine (although quite hefty) could have been even heftier!

The European court gave the EU the right to fine Microsoft to the max amount of 1.5BN euro (2.3BN dollar) in their final verdict some time ago, so the markets already factored in a very serious penalty payment once the verdict was out: the EU has now ruled they will fine Microsoft 1.4BN euro, but it is interesting to note the EU reserves itself the right to fine again if Microsoft does not comply this time.

It wouldn't be the first time Mircrosoft's fine is increased later on because the company does not want to comply with the ruling: in fact, this fine is already the 3rd fine for Microsoft and comes on top of earlier fines of 777M euro (1.2BN dollar).

"Microsoft is the first company in 50 years of EU competition policy that the Commission has had to fine for failure to comply with an antitrust decision," EU Competition Commissioner Neelie Kroes said in a statement.

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 6):
The expected decision might have been priced into the market already, or the analysts feel it won't affect them too badly.

I think it is the first, because the EU is quite serious about this: if Microsoft doesn't give in this time, the next fine might be a multi-billion euro one!

I think Microsoft will have gotten the message by now: if the EU rules against you and fines you, you better comply with it, or your be fined to bankruptcy!

[Edited 2008-02-27 23:51:05]

User currently offlineTheSonntag From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 3568 posts, RR: 29
Reply 8, posted (6 years 6 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2944 times:

Just to complement, a decision by the Commission of the EC can, of course, be brought before court. Therefore, expect some time until they really have to pay the sum.

User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8484 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (6 years 6 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2939 times:

I think it would be really funny if MSFT announces price increases tomorrow for Euro customers.

"Great news! Europe will be paying $1.3 billion dollars per year in higher license fees for our products! Thank you for playing!"

That would be funny. But, the EU is doing the right thing. MSFT has played this in a cynical, insulting way. Europe is outside their political control. Good for the EU. MSFT has way too many companies (and governments) by the balls.


User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5598 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (6 years 6 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2932 times:



Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 4):
I'm not that amused by the Microsoft witchunt.

Agreed.

Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 4):
From the purely consumer side, I haven't detected anything that would scream abuse of monopoly power thus far.

I don't think anyone here can contradict that. Seeing as:

Quoting Mhodgson (Reply 5):
Seems an odd monopoly to have, when Linux and Apple are gaining popularity all the time!

Apple is pwning (yes, pun intended!) MS right now in the digital music, laptop, video editing, and other departments. The only thing MS really has on them is the gaming market.

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 7):
The European court gave the EU the right to fine Microsoft

...for competitive practices not within their jurisdiction. Total bullshit.

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 7):
but it is interesting to note the EU reserves itself the right to fine again if Microsoft does not comply this time.

It's interesting to note that while the EU claims to be anti-monopoly, they are in effect monopolizing the market by fining companies out of business!

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 7):
I think Microsoft will have gotten the message by now: if the EU rules against you and fines you, you better comply with it, or your be fined to bankruptcy!

Fining a company for simply being "too large" is ridiculous.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineMoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3924 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (6 years 6 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2922 times:



Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 10):

...for competitive practices not within their jurisdiction. Total bullshit.

Pretty sure Microsoft's actions within the EU are entirely within their jurisdiction.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 10):

It's interesting to note that while the EU claims to be anti-monopoly, they are in effect monopolizing the market by fining companies out of business!

Uhm, your sentence doesn't make sense - the EU are fining MS because they did not adhere to an earlier ruling which required them to release certain specifications in order to encourage and enable competition with themselves. The EUs actions are actually aimed at increasing choice in the market.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 10):

Fining a company for simply being "too large" is ridiculous.

That is not what is happening here.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 10):

Apple is pwning (yes, pun intended!) MS right now in the digital music, laptop, video editing, and other departments.

And yet MS still doesn't have to compete with them on anywhere approaching an equal basis - MS can continue to maintain their market position through bundling and restricting practices rather than actually competing.


User currently offlineJush From Germany, joined Apr 2005, 1636 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (6 years 6 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2921 times:



Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 4):
I am satisfied with their products. From the purely consumer side, I haven't detected anything that would scream abuse of monopoly power thus far.

LOL? Dude, have you been on the moon lately? Almost everything and every program inside Windows screams monopoly...

Regds
jush



There is one problem with airbus. Though their products are engineering marvels they lack passion, completely.
User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (6 years 6 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2920 times:



Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 10):
...for competitive practices not within their jurisdiction. Total bullshit.

By selling its products in Europe, Microsoft (or in fact any other company) recognizes the jurisdiction of the EU over the matter... Nobody forced Microsoft to sell its products in the EU, you know?

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 10):
It's interesting to note that while the EU claims to be anti-monopoly, they are in effect monopolizing the market by fining companies out of business.

Microsoft has been found guilty of hindering competitors to develop add-on software by making it extremely hard and very costly for them to get access to detailed information on how to make such software interact perfectly with the operating system of Microsoft. In other words: Microsoft is deliberately and repeatedly misusing its position as leading operating system provider to prevent software from competing firms to interact as good with the Microsoft operating system as its own software. By fining Microsoft for the 3rd time now, the EU hopes the leading software producer will finally open up its operating system to others too, so they can write equally good (and probably cheaper) add-on programs for it.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 10):
Fining a company for simply being "too large" is ridiculous.

Microsoft isn't fined for being to large, they are fined for playing dirty tricks in order to stay larger than they should only be if competitors would have received unhindered access to the market...


User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12135 posts, RR: 51
Reply 14, posted (6 years 6 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2913 times:

This is typical Anti-American European Bureaucrat BS. Go back and read the story, again.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/02/27/tech...htm?postversion=2008022706?cnn=yes

1. Microsoft lost in the EU courts in March 2004, and gets fined $613M US. They are ordered to share information with rivals within 120 days.
2. Microsoft appeals.
3. Microsoft looses the appeal in September 2007.
4. Microsoft shares the required information, making the (US) patent licenses available on 22 October 2007, well within the 120 day deadline.
5. EU now says MS charged "unreasonable prices" and delayed complying with the EU order for 3 years.


Duhhhhhh, Earth to Europe, MS was in a legal appeal, so all time lines and fones are stayed until the appeal is over..

Funny how the EU can get bent out of shape over MS, Apple, and Lenix, but totally ignors the Euro Bs they simply hand over to EADS/Airbus.


User currently offlineAA7295 From Australia, joined Aug 2007, 620 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 6 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2911 times:

Let's just hope the Justice Department fines a few EU company's 1.5 billion in retaliation. Tit for tat. It's fair.

User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (6 years 6 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2912 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 14):
Duhhhhhh, Earth to Europe, MS was in a legal appeal, so all time lines and fones are stayed until the appeal is over..


Not if you loose the appeal though... check the EU anti-competition rules before you comment please.

[Edited 2008-02-28 01:46:49]

User currently offlineSingapore_Air From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13742 posts, RR: 19
Reply 17, posted (6 years 6 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2905 times:



Quoting Jush (Reply 12):
Dude, have you been on the moon lately? Almost everything and every program inside Windows screams monopoly...

Such as?

Windows Media Player is a fine program and I appreciate its functionality.

Windows Firewall is switched off as I already have Norton Internet Security.

Windows Defender is appreciated as I don't have to download a new spyware program.

Windows Internet Explorer is good and I prefer it over Firefox.

Microsoft has not imposed anything on me. Apart from maybe Microsoft-ing my childhood?



Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12135 posts, RR: 51
Reply 18, posted (6 years 6 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2879 times:



Quoting Slz396 (Reply 16):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 14):
Duhhhhhh, Earth to Europe, MS was in a legal appeal, so all time lines and fones are stayed until the appeal is over..


Not if you loose the appeal though... check the EU anti-competition rules before you comment please.

So, in the EU, if you loose an appeal, the time line reverts back to the original time line? That's insane, no body, that appeals, and later looses the appeal (most times years later) a case will ever be able to meet the original fine time lines.

This smacks of punishing those who can appeal a judgement. So, are the EU Courts supporting these barbaric punitive actions?

I think I'll revert back to my original statement in this thread.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 14):
This is typical Anti-American European Bureaucrat BS.



User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (6 years 6 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2868 times:



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 18):
So, in the EU, if you loose an appeal, the time line reverts back to the original time line?

Anybody could otherwise misuse the appeal procedures to delay the application of an unfavourable anti-competition ruling thus continuing to misuse his stronger position to harm competitors, with time definitely on his side.

By the time a final ruling is given, there might be no more competitors!


User currently offlineMoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3924 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (6 years 6 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2857 times:



Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 17):
Windows Defender is appreciated as I don't have to download a new spyware program.

That is *precisely* the point here - monopoly position allowing Microsoft to leverage other markets because of their domination of one (the OS).

The issue is not that these apps are available, its that these apps are by default in the OS which raises the competition barrier against third parties as they have to overcome the default response of 'oh well, why do I need another product?', locking themselves further into Microsoft solutions.

Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 17):
Windows Internet Explorer is good and I prefer it over Firefox.

Internet Explorer has set the entire web back by 5 years - because of their domination of the OS arena, once Netscape went under they stopped developing their browse. Yes, they *literally* disbanded the IE development team after IE 6 was released, and only kept a maintenance team running.

IE is not standards compliant, it actually misses huge portions of the specs (and the specs are there for a sodding reason). IE 7 is better, but far from standards complaint, and IE 8 is rumoured to be compliant with certain standards.

As an example, XHMTL is a well used html standard, but *every single page* written by *anyone* is not complaint with the standard - why? Because MS DID NOT MAKE IE 6 OR IE 7 COMPLIANT.

The XHTML standard says that a web server must supply the page with a content type of 'application/xhtml+xml', or to a lesser extent 'application/xml'.

However, IE does not recognise pages with those content types - it will simply display the XML tree for the page. The only way to get IE to display an XHTML page (IE has no problem rendering XHTML itself) is to use a content type of 'text/html' - which breaks the standard.

On the back end, Microsoft has routinely taken public protocols (SMB comes to mind, as does Kerberos) and subtly modified them so that third party implementations do not work - so you *have* to go with a Microsoft solution to get proper functionality.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 18):
So, in the EU, if you loose an appeal, the time line reverts back to the original time line? That's insane, no body, that appeals, and later looses the appeal (most times years later) a case will ever be able to meet the original fine time lines.

Microsoft applied to an appeals court for a suspension of corrective measures while the appeals process was undertaken - in December 2004, the appeals court ruled against Microsoft, and said that the corrective measures were not suspended and Microsoft must adhere to the original order.

In April 2006, Microsoft appealed against this, and was again ruled against by yet another court who said that the corrective measures must be carried out as per the original order.

In July 2007, the EU commission found that MS had not complied and handed down additional fines.

There was a process, it was undertaken, and Microsoft was ruled against.

But I highly doubt that the facts will ever make an impression here, its quite frankly obvious that this is anti-Americanism at its best.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8837 posts, RR: 24
Reply 21, posted (6 years 6 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2848 times:



Quoting Asturias (Reply 2):
The EU is single-handedly doing what needed to be done to prevent further abuse of the monopoly-position Microsoft has held the last years. What is accepted by the EU serves as precedence elsewhere.

What monopoly? Aren't you free to buy a Mac, install Unix, Linux, or dig up an old copy of OS/2? As far as browsers are concerned, there is Firefox, Opera, and a bunch of others all for free. What does the EU want - that Microsoft have to pay to sell its products instead of the customer?  Silly

Oh wait... that's what's happening.

Quoting Moo (Reply 11):
Uhm, your sentence doesn't make sense - the EU are fining MS because they did not adhere to an earlier ruling which required them to release certain specifications in order to encourage and enable competition with themselves.

They want Microsoft to release their code. I'm involved right now in a big legal argument over how our company can best protect our property - software that we've been working on very hard and has completely unique capabilities, so that a competitor can't simply copy or reverse engineer it. MS does the same.

Don't pretend this is not just a case of big American company has lots of money and the EU government resents it, and then steals it.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineMoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3924 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (6 years 6 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2844 times:



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 21):
They want Microsoft to release their code.

No, they don't - they want Microsoft to release usable and detailed specifications to their proprietary protocols and APIs, the court does *not* want source code *unless* there is no documentation in existence (for example, older protocols and APIs where documentation may either have been lost or just never existed).

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 21):
Don't pretend this is not just a case of big American company has lots of money and the EU government resents it, and then steals it.

Don't pretend that the EU doesn't have other, better ways to do that if they so wished.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13995 posts, RR: 62
Reply 23, posted (6 years 6 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2845 times:

One problem is also that Microsoft has exclusive agreements with many computer manufacturers, that MS software comes already preinstalled on most computers. So most customers (except technologically interested ones) will just keep the existing Windows suite and will not bother with alternatives.

Jan


User currently offlineMoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3924 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (6 years 6 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2839 times:



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 23):
One problem is also that Microsoft has exclusive agreements with many computer manufacturers, that MS software comes already preinstalled on most computers.

Microsoft is no longer allowed to have abusive exclusivity contracts with OEMs.


25 TheSonntag : Yes, the evil Europeans doing everything to fight against the good Americans. Sorry, but this is just rediculous. Remember how many states in the US
26 Post contains images Newark777 : So what would happen if MSFT just ceased selling and supporting all products in the EU? If they're going to be fined into Ch. 11, what's the differenc
27 Moo : Quite probably, because it would be an obvious middle finger to the EU Commission, they would apply to the EU Courts for conditional annulment of Mic
28 Post contains images Bagpiper : Exactly what I'm thinking What if the US fined some EU company - I'm sure the EU wouldn't be happy.
29 Post contains images Newark777 : At least it's good to know the EU respects intellectual property rights.
30 Pyrex : Especially when you consider that Apple has been able to use every dirty, anti-competitive trick in the book for the last decade without even warrant
31 Moo : Yeah, because going to a court and asking to have them conditionally annulled certainly means they don't respect intellectual property rights. Look,
32 Moo : Not all companies bundle to the exclusion of competitors - thats what Microsoft did in the first part of this decade, and what prompted this antitrus
33 Pyrex : Anti-trust laws are designed to, ultimately, protect the consumer. Bundling products, in the case of Apple, has the exact effect of harming consumers
34 Pyrex : The DOJ just slapped a very heavy fine on BA and you didn't see the EU complaining (in fact, I actually commend it for that).
35 Moo : No, because Apples bundling has not yet been shown to be detrimental to the consumer - show that, and antitrust certainly would apply. There is nothi
36 Bagpiper : Well, I would love to use a Mac, yet only if I can build it myself, or buy it in some format that allows you to change the hardware inside. if you bu
37 Newark777 : I would really like to see the EU try to throw out MSFT patents. Talk about shit hitting the fan.
38 Moo : No, it isn't - that remains within the right of a company to control their product. I have never had a problem diagnosing a problem, and there are la
39 Moo : Software patents are by and large not recognised in EU courts.
40 Bagpiper : With Dell, you are allowed to add more parts to your computer. Last time I checked (it is based on word of mouth from a Mac user, though), with a Mac
41 Moo : Totally and utterly wrong - you can certainly add, remove and change the internals of your Mac to your hearts content. I type this on an iMac which h
42 Post contains images YOWza : WTF are you talking about? The action against MS was purely to benefit the consumer as well as competing firms such as Apple and makers of "Lenix" .
43 Post contains images BlackProjects : The EU fines Microsoft 1.3 Billion that should solve some of the EU Funding problems for a bit.
44 Post contains images PPVRA : What abuse? You don't have to buy MS products. No one has to. If you do, you voluntarily do so. If they are doing something people aren't happy with,
45 AA7295 : How much did BA get fined? Nothing in the billions. It would be different if the EU fined like 50 million, but billions is rather extreme and that is
46 Pyrex : It was in the order of hundreds of millions of dollars, which for BA is arguably a higher percentage of their annual profits than this 1.3 billion fi
47 Post contains images Dreadnought : Here is the irony: Nobody is forced to use Microsoft. You don't like it, install another OS. It might not have as many programs available for it, but
48 AM744 : FALSE. Largely because of the restrictions brilliantly exposed by Moo, you HAVE to buy MS products in an enterprise environment, one way or another.
49 Bagpiper : First off, it looks like we work in similar fields. While I am only 18, I do own a company that does web design, web applications (usually to Web 2.0
50 Cpd : That's right - a few of the blue ribbon companies. I think these cries of monopolies are farcical - I still choose what I want to use. I choose to us
51 Klaus : That is not at issue here. The issue is that Microsoft deliberately engineers its products to remove your option to choose other components as you'd
52 MD11Engineer : One thing I noticed: Whenever I go to a big computer store in Germany or Ireland (the big consumer ones, not the small ones dealing with tech-savvy ge
53 Dreadnought : True. But that's what the market wants. Only perhaps one customer out of 10 is competant or comfortable enough to buy a PC and start from scratch. Th
54 Klaus : That is not entirely true - one of the issues where MS ran afoul of the antitrust regulators was their exclusionary contracts with OEM manufacturers,
55 Dreadnought : And what prevents them from not signing with MSFT in the first place, and install Linux on all their PCs instead? If, because of market forces, Dell,
56 Klaus : When the dominant market player forces its dealers or OEM partners to an either - or choice, it has basically the effect of suppressing any minority
57 Moo : Its quite obvious that most people posting to this thread do not actually understand what they are discussing. Loss of business. The situation the mar
58 MD11Engineer : I can give one example: I'm using the OpenOfficeSuite. While it is capable of doing most jobs MS Office is capable of doing, it has problems with var
59 Bagpiper : But thats a *good* thing! The progression of technology, and that technology becoming free to use, is a good thing. RealPlayer, instead of getting th
60 Dougloid : They recently settled a class action lawsuit here in Iowa and I personally got back $180 from it. It made me a happy guy. Yes. You don't like Microso
61 Moo : You aren't understanding - this was not about the progression of technology at all, it was about Microsoft entering the media distribution market and
62 Post contains links Dougloid : When you look at the history of efforts such as this, the question's got to be asked whether the game is worth the candle. I've already expressed wha
63 PPVRA : The EU has *NO RIGHT* to Microsoft's property. What Microsoft does with it is up to them, how and if they sell it is up to them, what they throw in t
64 Moo : If they want to do business in the EU or with EU citizens, Microsoft has to play by the rules. Thats the EU's rules.
65 MD11Engineer : Well, at the moment it looks as if the four big German energy companies might be broken up. When Germany's public infrastructure companies got sold i
66 PPVRA : True.
67 Bagpiper : So, are we going to throw out the idea that all the millions / billions of dollars MS spent to get a OS into the market? If they hadn't done that, th
68 SBBRTech : I think you are mixing up things here. Apple sells their own brand name hardware and as such it comes with Apple's own software, what's bad about it?
69 Dougloid : The reason for that is pretty obvious, don't you think? It's because it's what everyone pretty much uses. Remember, the "best" is the enemy of the "g
70 Klaus : Theoretically. In practice market manipulation, coercion, exclusion of competition via monopoly and other machinations can keep low-quality or overpr
71 Moo : The fact of the matter is, is that it *should* have cost Microsoft more to put Media Player into the market. Again I find myself saying - the rules c
72 Post contains images Dougloid : That's the market. Live by it and you die by it. There are inherent assumptions in your statement that are unproven. Low quality. Who sez? Compared t
73 Klaus : What do you not understand? Abusing a dominant market position to prevent competition from raising quality standards or lowering prices is pretty muc
74 Post contains images KevinL1011 : This is a no win situation. As a business owner, I agree with D'loid. I have 9 machines on the network at my shop and do all of my own IT work. I lov
75 Par13del : In layman terms, the EU is basically attempting to force Microsoft to make their OS and other software Open Source to allow competition, think about t
76 Fumanchewd : There is no monopoly. There is a market with many choices. This is inline with modern Anti-Americanism and not surprising.
77 Moo : I'm afraid there is a monopoly and no, there are not 'many choices'. I'm going to let you into a little secret - the instant cry of 'anti-americanism
78 Post contains images Fumanchewd : An "international joke"? I have never heard of such a thing. Are you telling me that the British are laughing at the same things as Germans now? Keep
79 Flighty : Microsoft is very expensive software to use. Personally I like Apple better. It is cheaper. They rip you off much less. No annual fees Well we learned
80 Post contains images Klaus : We've noticed that. Yep. Pretty much. Paranoid delusions can be somewhat entertaining from the outside. Not that our shared amusement is likely to al
81 Post contains images Fumanchewd : If microsoft is so expensive for what it is, it doesn't have to be used. Mr. AppleKlaus knows that better than anyone. There is no monopoly. I guess
82 Post contains images Klaus : You're really putting weirdness to a whole new level!
83 Fumanchewd : Aww shucks. Thank you.
84 Moo : Actually, yes - we are both laughing at people like you. No. Just because there are alternatives, doesn't mean there are 'many choices' - tell me how
85 Fumanchewd : So you are saying that, without the exception of Microsoft's, every software progam and file type is compatible with one another? BS
86 Moo : No, I am saying that the dominant format is one that you cannot be compatible with and therefor there can not be any decent competition in that area.
87 Fumanchewd : Wouldn't it be more correct to say that you agree with the EU and US Justice Department? Ego Ergo Ego. Your examples are incorrect. Before Powerpoint
88 Post contains images Dougloid : But aren't you making the same argument in justification of McDonalds as you are against Microsoft? Look here. The McDonalds trademarks are the same
89 Moo : No, because I am the one putting forward my view in this discussion, therefor in correct use of english in this discussion the EU and the US Justice
90 Dougloid : Don't use Office, then. Or are you saying that they shouldn't improve their product or that they should support legacy versions? AFAIK, Office 2003 i
91 Moo : McDonalds are not a monopoly - dare I repeat myself yet again? The rules change when you are a monopoly. There are things you cannot do when you are
92 Moo : Ahh, its all quite well and simple isn't it - don't use Office. How is that going to go down in my business? How can I read the detailed spreadsheets
93 Solarix : Until I can "legally" install OS X on my PC, Apple will always be considered a Monopoly in my book.
94 Moo : Theres a world of difference between being a monopoly of your own product, and a monopoly of a market.
95 Post contains images Fumanchewd : The same can be said for 90% of all software. See next reply as well. The newest version is able to run the oldest. Can you take a Playstation 3 game
96 Klaus : No. The other products usually have plenty of real-life competition in the market. MS Office de facto doesn't. It is telling, by the way, that Micros
97 Moo : Uhm, thats entirely my point - I *have* to buy the latest, I have *no* choice in the matter, I *cannot* continue to use the older software if I want
98 Fumanchewd : There will be an innovative revolution when creative designs are no longer protetected as innovative, but rather commercial opposition. When a good p
99 Fumanchewd : You have no reality in your mind.
100 Moo : It would seem I have an excess of reality compared to yourself.
101 Klaus : What are you trying to say here? Ah, empty threats. How original. In reality the EU simply enforces what the US DoJ had already complained about as w
102 Dougloid : Well, I can't argue with you there, but with the self promoted and vaunted code warriors that are supposed to exist out there, somebody should have f
103 Moo : The problem is that the Office file formats have, up until OOXML, been binary file formats - essentially memory dumps of internal structures. Extreme
104 Post contains links Fumanchewd : If it isn't clear yet, here are some glasses. http://www.betanews.com/article/1078475558 WordPerfect users can publish documents in PDF, XML, Microso
105 Moo : Tried it? No? Sucks to be you then, cos I have. Wordperfect doc, xls and ppt format support is nowhere near 100% - you cannot replace MS Office with
106 Klaus : You can't even lose an argument with so much as a shred of grace.
107 Dougloid : Fer chrissakes people. It's only software. We didn't even have personal computers 20 years ago and we've only had electricity for 125 years.
108 Fumanchewd : No but it feels good pointing out that when you are so sure you are so wrong. Yes you can, but it appears that you like the product too much to give
109 Klaus : Nonsense. The only thing the MS products in question are "superior" about is being identical to themselves.
110 Moo : Well, you haven't yet - going to start sometime soon? No, I can't - nothing gives me 100% compatibility, or anywhere approaching 100% compatibility.
111 Fumanchewd : Mmm. I know that you're upset over the Dungeons and Dragons guy dying, but please take a deep breath........... and realize that nothing is 100% comp
112 Moo : And again with the cheap insults. Are you sure you haven't inflated your age on your user profile? Theres nothing stopping 100% compatibility, other
113 Post contains images Fumanchewd : But you have consciously decided to for the last few days so get off the condescension train. I have worked in the business environment. My age is no
114 Fumanchewd : Hmmm.
115 Moo : So you are nothing but a troll then. Everything you have said could be true, and yet it wouldn't change the fact that Microsoft are a monopoly. Howev
116 Klaus : Myself being interested in actual reality already keeps us worlds apart.
117 Post contains images Dougloid : We may have resolved one thing here today because it went down without a struggle or a counterblaste from the linux nazis-(they're all over at the OL
118 Post contains links and images Klaus : Let's listen to a journalist for a topical quote: Vista makes me sad - The INQUIRER Well, you asked for it - you got it!
119 Dougloid : Vista? What dat? Ain't no Vistuh roun' heah, no suh. I figure I'll do it when I have to and not before, or when somebody gives it to me with a box. U
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