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Deadly Day In Gaza...  
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Posted (6 years 6 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1443 times:

..with 77 Palestinians killed in three days as retaliation for a Kassim-Rocket attack (which of course is unjustified as well..) and who caused the death of an Israeli.
So 77:1 is the eye for eye ratio currently...
As long as no viable Palestinian state with a true economic perspective is set up,this type of inciendents just are used to increase the Kassim production rate...
Nobody should dare spaeking about "peace negotiations" any longer,since they have been used to stall true progress for far too long.


Please respect animals - don't eat them...
19 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineDC10extender From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 617 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 6 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1425 times:



Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
77 Palestinians killed in three days as retaliation for a Kassim-Rocket attack (which of course is unjustified as well..) and who caused the death of an Israeli.
So 77:1 is the eye for eye ratio currently...

Were they militants or civilians?



Did you ever read on your birth certificate that life is fair? Thats cause its not there.
User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (6 years 6 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1424 times:



Quoting DC10extender (Reply 1):
Were they militants or civilians?

Yes.


User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 3, posted (6 years 6 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1408 times:

Hamas members,women and children killed -number of victims increased to 56 just for today alone,bringing to number of total killed in three dyas to over 90...


Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29795 posts, RR: 58
Reply 4, posted (6 years 6 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1406 times:



Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
As long as no viable Palestinian state with a true economic perspective is set up,this type of inciendents just are used to increase the Kassim production rate

If the Palistinans would actually talk to the Israeli's.

Gaza shouldn't be considered part of Palistine anymore, at least since the coup, it is just a Hezbullah controled thug ghetto farm.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineAgill From Sweden, joined Feb 2004, 1011 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 6 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1392 times:



Quoting L-188 (Reply 4):
Hezbullah controled thug

Hamas right?


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29795 posts, RR: 58
Reply 6, posted (6 years 6 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1392 times:



Quoting Agill (Reply 5):
Quoting L-188 (Reply 4):
Hezbullah controled thug

Hamas right?

Does it really matter, both are currently funded by Syria and Iran.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (6 years 6 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1363 times:

Jefferson once opined that a people get the kind of government they ask for.

Looks like the folks in Gaza are getting what they asked for, good and hard. Had it been me, with the recent border opening, I probably would have been somewhere south of Khartoum right now and not slowing down a lick.

It's a homily on electing thugs to positions of power. Unfortunately the election was a relatively free one as those things go, but because they were elected does not cloak Hamas with legitimacy or make a good argument that they're any different than they were.

Electing the wrong people out of passion is a sucker's game and they were fools to do it. But everyone's entitled to their own slice of hell.

I think they want to provoke the Israelis with atrocities, let the ordinary folks in Gaza take the heat for it and provide the photo ops, and then make the inevitable plea for sympathy and money from fellow travelers.

It's a remarkably cynical philosophy, even for the middle east.

Whether the folks in Gaza regret the choice they made is unclear, but somehow I doubt that Hamas will allow themselves to be turfed out in the next set of elections, if ever.


User currently offlineJCS17 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 8065 posts, RR: 39
Reply 8, posted (6 years 6 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1360 times:

If Hamas would stop lobbing rockets into Ashkelon and Sderot, and I bet the Israelis really wouldn't bother attacking Gaza. But hey, the Palestinians get what they pay for.... civilians and militants.


America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
User currently offlineQR332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (6 years 6 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1343 times:



Quoting DC10extender (Reply 1):
Were they militants or civilians?

A third of those killed are children. That's over 30 children in 3 days.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 4):
If the Palistinans would actually talk to the Israeli's.

Your kidding me, right? When they sat down and talked to the Israelis a few months ago, the Israelis announced plans for several new settlements on the day the talks were supposed to begin.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 4):
Gaza shouldn't be considered part of Palistine anymore, at least since the coup, it is just a Hezbullah controled thug ghetto farm.

So that justifies the murder of children? Nice one. Also, it really doesn't help make your comments look intelligent when you don't know how to spell the name of the country you are talking about, and when you claim it is controlled by an organisation that exists in a completely different country.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 7):
Looks like the folks in Gaza are getting what they asked for, good and hard. Had it been me, with the recent border opening, I probably would have been somewhere south of Khartoum right now and not slowing down a lick.

They were never allowed free access in Egypt. They were allowed to go in, get supplies, and were then forced back to the hellhole Gaza has become.

And what the hell do you mean what they asked for? If your kid was killed because your fellow Americans voted for a president you didn't even vote for; hell, even if you had voted for him, how do you think you would feel if I told you you were getting what you asked for, "good and hard"?

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 7):
It's a homily on electing thugs to positions of power. Unfortunately the election was a relatively free one as those things go, but because they were elected does not cloak Hamas with legitimacy or make a good argument that they're any different than they were.

Electing the wrong people out of passion is a sucker's game and they were fools to do it. But everyone's entitled to their own slice of hell.

I think they want to provoke the Israelis with atrocities, let the ordinary folks in Gaza take the heat for it and provide the photo ops, and then make the inevitable plea for sympathy and money from fellow travelers.

It's a remarkably cynical philosophy, even for the middle east.

Whether the folks in Gaza regret the choice they made is unclear, but somehow I doubt that Hamas will allow themselves to be turfed out in the next set of elections, if ever.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...66-032E-4470-82FB-005D6A2B5186.htm

Mahmoud Abbas's comments on Saturday came as more Israeli air raids brought the total death toll over four days to 88 people, at least a third of which have been children, according to medical sources.

Fifty-four people were killed during Saturday's raids alone.

"It's very regrettable that what is happening is more than a holocaust," Abbas told reporters in Ramallah.

"Children who are barely five-months old are being bombed by the Israeli army."


How the hell can you seriously be trying to justify this? I mean, starvation, the cutting of electricity, water, and all supplies isn't enough?

You seriously think that because the Gazans voted in Hamas in what was pretty much a protest vote against Fatah, they deserve all of this?

My God, this world really is much more fucked up than I thought it was.

All politics aside, regardless of who did what and when, at the end of the day this is just wrong however you look at it.

Quoting JCS17 (Reply 8):
If Hamas would stop lobbing rockets into Ashkelon and Sderot, and I bet the Israelis really wouldn't bother attacking Gaza. But hey, the Palestinians get what they pay for.... civilians and militants.

I would bet my right fucking nut that you would not say the same thing if those kids and civilians killed were American, Israeli, or just basically not Arab.


User currently offlineQR332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 6 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1331 times:

By the way, this is extremely interesting, and I really would love to see how you guys are going to justify this one:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/mar/01/israelandthepalestinians1

Israel's deputy defence minister yesterday warned his country was close to launching a huge military operation in Gaza and said Palestinians would bring on themselves a "bigger shoah," using the Hebrew word usually reserved for the Holocaust.

The choice of vocabulary from Matan Vilnai, an often outspoken former army general, was unusually grave - the word is not normally used for anything other than the Nazi Holocaust of the Jews.

Vilnai was speaking about his government's plans to tackle the continued firing of makeshift rockets, known as Qassams, from Gaza.

"The more Qassam fire intensifies and the rockets reach a longer range, they will bring upon themselves a bigger shoah because we will use all our might to defend ourselves," he said, in a telephone interview with army radio yesterday morning.


Also, a 5-month old baby was among those killed during the attacks over the past 3 days. But, according to Dougloid, Gazans are just "getting what they asked for, good and hard."


User currently offlineJCS17 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 8065 posts, RR: 39
Reply 11, posted (6 years 6 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1319 times:



Quoting QR332 (Reply 9):
I would bet my right fucking nut that you would not say the same thing if those kids and civilians killed were American, Israeli, or just basically not Arab.

America or Israel would not elect a terrorist group to represent them. Maybe I did go a bit far. However, if the Palestinians put aside their blind, rabid hatred against the Jews for a second, and elected a moderate government against terrorism they would have all the land they want (except for pushing the Israelis into the sea)! The Palestinians largely deserve what they get.... poverty and war.



America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7149 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (6 years 6 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1315 times:



Quoting QR332 (Reply 9):
Your kidding me, right? When they sat down and talked to the Israelis a few months ago, the Israelis announced plans for several new settlements on the day the talks were supposed to begin.

We talking about Gaza and Hamas, I thought the Israelis had already left Gaza, did not know they wanted back in, interesting that one.


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 13, posted (6 years 6 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1312 times:



Quoting JCS17 (Reply 11):
if the Palestinians put aside their blind, rabid hatred against the Jews for a second

And vice versa. The whole conflict is based on racism and religious intolerance of the most extreme kind - on BOTH sides........



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (6 years 6 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1310 times:



Quoting L-188 (Reply 6):
Quoting Agill (Reply 5):
Quoting L-188 (Reply 4):
Hezbullah controled thug

Hamas right?

Does it really matter, both are currently funded by Syria and Iran.

It is Hamas we're talking about, but L-188 is right. They're both terrorist organization, both bent on destruction of Israel. Neither are nations, but para-military organizations, and Israel has every right to defend themselves from these thugs.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 9):


Quoting DC10extender (Reply 1):
Were they militants or civilians?

A third of those killed are children. That's over 30 children in 3 days.

That is a tragedy, but it happens when one lives among terrorists, QR.

Until Hamas lays down their arms, and publically states recognizes Israel, they are a threat to Israel. Hamas doesn't want peace-they want to destroy, pure and simple, and maybe it's time that what they wish on Israel happens to them now.


User currently offlineJCS17 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 8065 posts, RR: 39
Reply 15, posted (6 years 6 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1291 times:



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 13):

And vice versa. The whole conflict is based on racism and religious intolerance of the most extreme kind - on BOTH sides........

Israelis, in general, do not hate Palestinians or Muslims. In fact, 20% of Israelis are Arab Muslims who have the same civil rights as Jews. How many Jews live in Palestine? Read a book, good night, and goodbye.



America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
User currently offlineQR332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (6 years 6 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1276 times:



Quoting JCS17 (Reply 11):
America or Israel would not elect a terrorist group to represent them. Maybe I did go a bit far. However, if the Palestinians put aside their blind, rabid hatred against the Jews for a second, and elected a moderate government against terrorism they would have all the land they want (except for pushing the Israelis into the sea)! The Palestinians largely deserve what they get.... poverty and war.

Your argument really doesn't hold out for quite a few reasons. First of all, the vote for Hamas was largely a protest vote. Fatah has been known for being incredibly corrupt for years, and the Palestinian people could never do anything about it. When they voted for Hamas, they thought they were going for the lesser of two evils... unfortunately, they have no idea how wrong they were.

Secondly, you say the Palestinians have not elected a moderate government. Yes, back when the elections happened, they did not, but today Hamas has very little support in the West Bank and Hamas don't have any control there.

The Palestinian government did go into peace talks with the Israeli government. Last time, only a few months ago, Israel announced several new settlements to be constructed in the West Bank on the first day of the peace talks. Does that, in your eyes, seem like something a party truly interested in peace would do? Your saying if they elected a moderate government they would get what they want. Well, the moderate government went to the peace talks and the Israelis made their position extremely clear. You cannot sit and say "yes, we want peace" on the one hand and then continue to construct settlements on stolen land on the other.

Also, you make the timeless mistake of assuming the Palestinians hate the Jews because they're Jews. The Palestinians don't hate Jews. Hell, I study in the UK and although I am Palestinian I have several Jewish friends (not acquaintances). This is not a religious conflict, but a political one that religion has been used as a tool in. Proof of this is the fact that up until very recently, the Palestinian resistance movement was largely secularist; many Palestinian fighters in the 60s were atheist.

Finally, I want to ask you a question. According to your logic, the Palestinians basically deserve what they are getting because of their choice of government. So should I take that to mean that if an Iraqi kills civilians in America, your going to say the same thing, seeing as the government your people elected invaded his country? The argument just does not work. Civilians are civilians, regardless of everything else, and indiscriminate bombing is only going to increase the attacks on Israel.

Quoting Par13del (Reply 12):
We talking about Gaza and Hamas, I thought the Israelis had already left Gaza, did not know they wanted back in, interesting that one.

The settlements were announced in the West Bank, which caused the entire peace talks to fall through. But, the Israelis are considering a full-scale invasion. God help the Gazans if that happens.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 14):
It is Hamas we're talking about, but L-188 is right. They're both terrorist organization, both bent on destruction of Israel. Neither are nations, but para-military organizations, and Israel has every right to defend themselves from these thugs.

...through the use of collective punishment, which leads to the death of children? Nice one. Israel has been "defending" itself by cutting off electricity, water, and all supplies to Gaza for several months now. That is not self-defence. That is making millions of people suffer for the actions of a few. That logic of yours is the same logic the terrorists had when they committed 9/11.

I honestly cannot believe how hypocritical you are. You used to always rant on about how Muslims don't speak out enough against terrorism and all that BS. Yet you didn't even find it in yourself to criticize Israel for the murder of children. Again, nice one.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 14):
That is a tragedy, but it happens when one lives among terrorists, QR.

Until Hamas lays down their arms, and publically states recognizes Israel, they are a threat to Israel. Hamas doesn't want peace-they want to destroy, pure and simple, and maybe it's time that what they wish on Israel happens to them now.

What choice do people have but to live there? Do you really think Palestinians in Gaza enjoy their lifestyle, Falcon? They do not really get much of a choice in where they want to live. See, that is the whole concept of them being refugees - they got kicked out of their homes and they have nowhere else to go. Their movement is completely restricted to the Gaza Strip. How can you seriously pin this on them? They are innocent civilians who have been caught up in something they did not ask for.

Also, tell me, that 5-month old that died as a result of the Israeli bombings. Did she have it coming because she lives among terrorists, Falcon?

Quoting JCS17 (Reply 15):
Israelis, in general, do not hate Palestinians or Muslims. In fact, 20% of Israelis are Arab Muslims who have the same civil rights as Jews. How many Jews live in Palestine? Read a book, good night, and goodbye.

How many Jews live in Palestine? By Palestine, I assume you mean only the West Bank and Gaza. Gee, I don't know, just the tens if not hundreds of thousands who live in settlements in the West Bank built on land seized from Palestinians. You know, those settlers who are armed to the teeth and regularly harass and even attack Palestinian civilians while the IDF watches. No, i'm sure they don't hate the Palestinians.  Yeah sure

Also, you must be kidding me with that 20% comment. You make it sound like the Israeli government graciously allowed those people to immigrate to Israel or something. Those 20% are what remains of the Palestinians inside modern-day Israel. The Israeli government did not allow them to move there; they are the ones whose families in some manner managed to stay behind after the expulsion of over 700,000 Palestinians in 1947 and 1948.

Its generally not a good idea to tell people to go read a book when you yourself aren't exactly the most informed person when it comes to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.


User currently offlineN229NW From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 1946 posts, RR: 32
Reply 17, posted (6 years 6 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1267 times:

Sometimes you just want to throw up your hands in despair. Collective punishment 1.) IS WRONG 2.) DOESN'T WORK. On the contrary, it breeds more terrorists. Is that really so hard to understand? Apparently.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 7):
Jefferson once opined that a people get the kind of government they ask for.

Looks like the folks in Gaza are getting what they asked for, good and hard...It's a homily on electing thugs to positions of power. Unfortunately the election was a relatively free one as those things go, but because they were elected does not cloak Hamas with legitimacy or make a good argument that they're any different than they were.

Electing the wrong people out of passion is a sucker's game and they were fools to do it. But everyone's entitled to their own slice of hell.

Look closely at what you just wrote. What if you changed a few words and put it in the mouth of someone in the middle east? Here are your words with only the italicized words changed:

"Jefferson once opined that a people get the kind of government they ask for. Looks like the folks the US are getting what they asked for, good and hard...It's a homily on electing thugs to positions of power. Unfortunately the election was a relatively free one as those things go, but because they were elected does not cloak George Bush with legitimacy...Electing the wrong people out of passion is a sucker's game and they were fools to do it. But everyone's entitled to their own slice of hell."

So does that work for you as a justification of 9/11? If not, maybe you should rethink it and realize that it is just as ridiculous a way to justify the killing of innocent people anywhere else as it would be to justify killing innocent people here in the US.

Sure, Hamas are complete thugs, and the excuse of "protest vote" doesn't mean they aren't hell-bent on radicalizing the population and destroying Israel. But all this doesn't justify a democratic Israeli government stooping to their level. Killing the families and neighbors of suicide bombers and Hamas militants, along with any kids who happen to be playing nearby is supposed to make your average desperate Gazan care more about preventing stray Israeli deaths from rocket fire? Brilliant psychology.

Now, if you ask: Well, how should Israel respond to a hostile neighbor that is continuously launching rocket attacks into Israel, that is of course a tough question. But this is not the answer.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 14):
Hamas doesn't want peace-they want to destroy, pure and simple, and maybe it's time that what they wish on Israel happens to them now.

Here's how I see it:

Hamas wants "peace" after they take over Israel and the Jews there are killed or magically disappear.
Recent Israeli governments want "peace" after they take over the entire West Bank and the Palestinians there are killed or magically disappear.

Neither one is really peace...

______________________________
Edit:

I see QR332 made a similar argument while I was typing my post. He probably said it better than I did:

Quoting QR332 (Reply 16):
Finally, I want to ask you a question. According to your logic, the Palestinians basically deserve what they are getting because of their choice of government. So should I take that to mean that if an Iraqi kills civilians in America, your going to say the same thing, seeing as the government your people elected invaded his country? The argument just does not work. Civilians are civilians, regardless of everything else, and indiscriminate bombing is only going to increase the attacks on Israel.


[Edited 2008-03-01 20:51:25]


It's people like you what cause unrest!
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 18, posted (6 years 6 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1264 times:



Quoting JCS17 (Reply 15):
In fact, 20% of Israelis are Arab Muslims who have the same civil rights as Jews.

Rubbish.

"In its conclusions, the committee also voiced concern at an unequal distribution of water resources, a disproportionate targeting of Palestinians in house demolitions and the "denial of the right of many Palestinians" to return to their land.

"Differing applications of criminal law between Jews and Arabs had caused "harsher punishments for Palestinians for the same offence", said the committee, whose recommendations are not legally binding.

"A high number of complaints by Arab Israelis against police officers are not properly investigated and many Arabs suffer discriminatory work practices and high unemployment, it said."


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/835392.html

"Components of the law also include the following:

"• Palestinians will be excluded from obtaining citizenship or residency. Anyone else who marries an Israeli will be entitled to Israeli citizenship.

"• Israeli Arabs who marry Palestinians from the West Bank or Gaza Strip will either have to move to the occupied territories, or live apart from their husband or wife.

"• Children of these unions will also be affected: from the age of 12 they will be denied citizenship or residency and forced to move out of Israel. The statute is a direct reversal of one of the provisions of the ten-year old Oslo Agreement, which allowed family reunions for Arabs inside Israel. In fact, many marriages of Palestinian Arabs with Israeli Arabs did occur. In practice, the Palestinian spouse was automatically eligible for Israeli citizenship and it was understood that Israeli citizenship would be denied in only very extreme cases."


http://www.zmag.org/Sustainers/Content/2003-08/13beal.cfm



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29795 posts, RR: 58
Reply 19, posted (6 years 6 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1263 times:



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 7):
Jefferson once opined that a people get the kind of government they ask for.

Agreed, and that is one of the reasons why Madison made sure Jefferson was out of the country when he decided to rewrite the articles of confederation.

Quoting DC10extender (Reply 1):
Were they militants or civilians?

A third of those killed are children. That's over 30 children in 3 days.

That is a tragedy, but it happens when one lives among terrorists, QR.[/quote]

Exactly. If the civilian would be a bit more proactive about kicking these rocket launchers out of their back alleys, they wouldn't have to worry about radar controled couterfire.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
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