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Here Goes Hugo Again  
User currently offlineMham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3729 posts, RR: 3
Posted (6 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2412 times:

Seems he's been doing his best to butt his nose into Columbia, now we have this.

Venezuela 'sends tanks to border'

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez is sending thousands of troops and tanks to the border with Colombia, marking a sharp escalation in regional tensions.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7274038.stm


What are the tactical implications of a war in the region? Is Venezuela strong enough for Columbia? What about Equador, they seem to be taking their cues from Hugo, I noticed their indignation came about after Hugo screamed, could they open up a dual front against Columbia?

26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (6 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2401 times:

Many people forget, or chose to ignore, that part of Chavez's plan (the Bolivarian revolution) has as one of its ends the 'reunification' of the South American continent as Simon Bolivar wanted it.

Colombia, after all, was originally the countries of Ecuador, Venezuela, Colombia, Venezuela and Peru.

My poor relatives in Ecuador are clamoring for Correa's downfall, as he has brought nothing but misery to them.


User currently offlineJm017 From Jamaica, joined Jun 2002, 1227 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (6 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2381 times:

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 1):
Many people forget, or chose to ignore, that part of Chavez's plan (the Bolivarian revolution) has as one of its ends the 'reunification' of the South American continent as Simon Bolivar wanted it.

Or, in my case, did not know. I Figured him for a blowhard who simply enjoyed getting under George Bush's skin. But in recent months he has proven to be potentially a destabilizing force. Well, I guess there can be no doubt about that now.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 1):
My poor relatives in Ecuador are clamoring for Correa's downfall, as he has brought nothing but misery to them.

How long has he been in power?

[Edited 2008-03-02 15:16:00]


"It's okay to cheat, if you just really don't like to lose."
User currently onlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8965 posts, RR: 24
Reply 3, posted (6 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2321 times:

Cuba has been a longtime supplier for the FARC guerillas, and it just seems reasonable to believe that Chavez would want to help undermine Columbia's government as well. We know of at least one terrorist that Chavez was harboring (Rodrigo Granda).


Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (6 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2299 times:



Quoting Jm017 (Reply 2):
Well, I guess there can be no doubt about that now.

Qoutes like this make his intentions well known:

"Someday Colombia will be freed from the hand of the (U.S.) empire," Chavez said. "We have to liberate Colombia," he added, saying Colombia's people will eventually do away with its government"

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8V5H5TG1&show_article=1

Quoting Jm017 (Reply 2):
How long has he been in power?

Too long. My mother is expecting his ouster or assassination soon.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 3):
Cuba has been a longtime supplier for the FARC guerillas, and it just seems reasonable to believe that Chavez would want to help undermine Columbia's government as well.

Yep!

Chavez has recently angered Uribe by urging world leaders to classify the leftist rebels as "insurgents" rather than "terrorists."

(from same article above)

So, if Chavez supports the FARC, a well known MARXIST group, what does that make him?


User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5934 posts, RR: 41
Reply 5, posted (6 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2293 times:



Quoting Mham001 (Thread starter):
What are the tactical implications of a war in the region? Is Venezuela strong enough for Columbia? What about Equador, they seem to be taking their cues from Hugo, I noticed their indignation came about after Hugo screamed, could they open up a dual front against Columbia?

no the are not strong enough for Colombia... specially as Colombia would be back-uped by the US... 2 days and the principal Venezuelan city's would be bombed out....

problem for colombia would be that it would be a 2 front war (in the west with Venezuela and in the south with Ecuador) anyway colombias tropps are high skilled.... and in war since more than 40 years....



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineAlberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2958 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 9 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2254 times:



Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 4):
Too long. My mother is expecting his ouster or assassination soon.

Let me remind you that this guy was democratically elected just like Chavez.

Quoting Avianca (Reply 5):
problem for colombia would be that it would be a 2 front war (in the west with Venezuela and in the south with Ecuador) anyway colombias tropps are high skilled.... and in war since more than 40 years....

Any possible conflict would likely be localized to skirmishes along the borders like the Ecuador-Peru conflict in the mid 90's.......



short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29840 posts, RR: 58
Reply 7, posted (6 years 9 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2251 times:



Quoting Alberchico (Reply 6):
Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 4):
Too long. My mother is expecting his ouster or assassination soon.

Let me remind you that this guy was democratically elected just like Chavez.

And Hitler....can't forget about Hitler!



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (6 years 9 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2237 times:



Quoting Alberchico (Reply 6):
Let me remind you that this guy was democratically elected just like Chavez.

So was Abdala Bucaram...
Lucio Guitierrez...
Jamil Mahuad...

You get the idea.

All democratically elected, but that didn't stop Ecuadorians from rising up and throwing the idiots out.


User currently offlineJM017 From Jamaica, joined Jun 2002, 1227 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (6 years 9 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2230 times:



Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 4):
Qoutes like this make his intentions well known:

"Someday Colombia will be freed from the hand of the (U.S.) empire," Chavez said. "We have to liberate Colombia," he added, saying Colombia's people will eventually do away with its government"

No doubt whatsoever.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 7):
And Hitler....can't forget about Hitler!

A good point. People forget Hitler was elected.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 4):
Too long. My mother is expecting his ouster or assassination soon.

Well, I hope the suffering ends soon. And the last thing we need is another war.



"It's okay to cheat, if you just really don't like to lose."
User currently offlineAlberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2958 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 9 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2223 times:



Quoting L-188 (Reply 7):
And Hitler....can't forget about Hitler!

Oh for the love of God, why do so many people keep comparing Chavez to Hitler ???

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 8):
All democratically elected, but that didn't stop Ecuadorians from rising up and throwing the idiots out.

Latin America in general seems to be missing good leadership and honest politics. Argentina seems to be the only country where the president actually knows what the hell she's doing....



short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6614 posts, RR: 35
Reply 11, posted (6 years 9 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2214 times:
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Drawing parallels from the Malvinas war (a Simian dictator, a totalitarian government in its death throes, economic meltdown, international isolation) then I think Chavez is thinking like Galtieri, the drunk, thought at the time. A war with Colombia will have the same effect as war with the UK had on the Argentine population, which was suddenly throwing themselves in support of the government. So I believe a Colombia-Venezuela war is a likely scenario.

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 10):
Argentina seems to be the only country where the president actually knows what the hell she's doing....

Really? I don't think she has a clue about fiscal responsibility, labor issues, economics and foreign policy. It seems to me she is just as populist as her predecessor. The husband of course

What never ceases to amaze me, is why, oh why does Latam keeps voting for populist idiots?


User currently offlineTACAA320 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (6 years 9 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2201 times:

Quoting Mham001 (Thread starter):
Seems he's been doing his best to butt his nose into Columbia, now we have this.

Do you mean "Colombia"?

He [Chavez] is totally crazy. An honest President like Uribe will never agree with him in politics nor in any other field.

[Edited 2008-03-02 21:56:45]

User currently offlineAlberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2958 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 9 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2191 times:



Quoting AR385 (Reply 11):
A war with Colombia will have the same effect as war with the UK had on the Argentine population, which was suddenly throwing themselves in support of the government. So I believe a Colombia-Venezuela war is a likely scenario.

1. Don't forget that the U.S will back Colombia all the way
2.Argentines had this obsession with the Malvinas being theirs, but most Venezuelans know little about the ''Gran Colombia'' dream and thus would have very confused and outraged at the prospect of war with their neighbor.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 11):
What never ceases to amaze me, is why, oh why does Latam keeps voting for populist idiots?

When people get tired of the status quo they get desperate and listen to anybody who has a good smile and gives them some fresh hopes and ideas. Kind of why so many people are supporting Obama now.....



short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6614 posts, RR: 35
Reply 14, posted (6 years 9 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2182 times:
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Quoting Alberchico (Reply 13):
When people get tired of the status quo they get desperate and listen to anybody who has a good smile and gives them some fresh hopes and ideas

Agreed, but why over and over and over again? For example:

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 8):
Abdala Bucaram...
Lucio Guitierrez...
Jamil Mahuad...

Alan Garcia, Menem, Ortega.


User currently offlineJM017 From Jamaica, joined Jun 2002, 1227 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (6 years 9 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2134 times:



Quoting Alberchico (Reply 10):

Quoting L-188 (Reply 7):
And Hitler....can't forget about Hitler!

Oh for the love of God, why do so many people keep comparing Chavez to Hitler ???

Ohh, they are not in the same league. Not even close. But the point is Hitler was elected and look what damage he did. Correa being democratically elected doesn't mean he will have the best of intentions for his people or will act in a manner one expects of such leaders. Happens all the time, though rarely on a Hitler-like scale.



"It's okay to cheat, if you just really don't like to lose."
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7966 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (6 years 9 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2120 times:

A war, and I don't think we will see one, would to some extend be a proxy war like that between Lebanon and Israel (aka Iran vs. the U.S.).

What angers me is that Chavez, as much as I dislike the man, could really become a moderator between the Colombian government and the FARC/ELN and do something really useful for a change, i.e. help to free the hostages. He did so before which led to the liberation of two hostages. Then he demanded that the Colombian government (plus the rest of the world if I recall correctly) no longer considers FARC a terrorist organisation - of course to no avail. Since then, he makes no apparent attempts to influence FARC.

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 12):
An honest President like Uribe

Not sure if he's honest. I know he's very popular in Colombia, but to the outside world he introduces himself as being willing to negotiate with FARC and ELN; whereas in Colombia he stresses that he will under no circumstances negotiate, but "circumvent the terrorists" (try circumventing an area the size of Belgium) and kill them - much to the horror of the hostages' relatives.
Mr. Uribe had helped greatly to establish paramilitary groups that do the dirty work for the army, that is harass and kill civilians suspect of harboring FARC members (in fact those people can do little against either harboring members of the army, paramilitary groups or left terrorists and getting killed by the respective other group. The only thing they could achieve was to maintain a demilitarized zone under Uribe's hapless or unlucky predecessor, which didn't last long under Uribe's government).
So much for being honest.

Quoting JM017 (Reply 15):
But the point is Hitler was elected

Yes and no. Hitler's party, the NSDAP, had become the largest party in the Reichstag, without which no halfway stable government could be formed (not saying that the Nazis were reliable), but the NSDAP gained less than 40% (37%, I believe) of all votes casted.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineMiamiair From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (6 years 9 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2101 times:

El Chavo Loco Strikes again!

This idiot is a nut case. Imagine that? Take the security of you country seriously, you (Uribe) order some top FARCs snuffed and you get this raving lunatic at your border asking for tanks and Sukhois to be mobilized.

Unfortunately, Colombia's military is outdated when compared to Venezuela, but help is not too far away.


User currently offlineViaggiare From Costa Rica, joined Jan 2007, 2147 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (6 years 9 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2085 times:



Quoting AR385 (Reply 11):
What never ceases to amaze me, is why, oh why does Latam keeps voting for populist idiots?

Too many problems, way too much poverty, and governments which have been thoroughly clumsy in the search for solutions. Latam countries are within grasp of any populist, leftist adventurer who will promise people the moon.



Entre le fort et le faible c’est la liberté qui opprime et la loi qui affranchit.
User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4318 posts, RR: 11
Reply 19, posted (6 years 9 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2063 times:

The populism you see today in the main countries is far less marked than that of 40 years ago. It is there, but it is not a comprehensive populism.


My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14139 posts, RR: 62
Reply 20, posted (6 years 9 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2056 times:

Doesn't Venezuela also have territorial claims at the border to Guyana (Rio Esequibo)?
AFAIK, there have already been border incursions as well, though I think that in case of a Venezuelian attack Guyana (as former British colony), would receive help from the UK.

Jan


User currently offlineAM744 From Mexico, joined Jun 2001, 1787 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 9 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2043 times:



Quoting AR385 (Reply 11):
What never ceases to amaze me, is why, oh why does Latam keeps voting for populist idiots?

Because no choice has proven to be succesful, regardless of political orientation.
Mexico's GDP grew at rates of 6-7% 1940-1970. No more that 3% since 1982 and almost 0% since then if we take into account inflation and population growth. Nothing stellar there. (David Ibarra, "Apuntes de Economía Mexicana", Fondo de Cultura Economica)

Quoting Viaggiare (Reply 18):
Latam countries are within grasp of any populist, leftist adventurer who will promise people the moon.

Menem, Salinas, et al, where no lefties and proved to be as harmful as any. Oh, and they promised the moon also.
Galtieri nor Pinochet were, and we all know what happened.

In Mexico's defense I may add that Salinas was not democratically elected.

I propose we stop portraying the left per se as a "danger" (the "others" are always a danger as far as extreme factions know). Every political side is, provided it is radical enough.


User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6924 posts, RR: 34
Reply 22, posted (6 years 9 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2024 times:



Quoting Alberchico (Reply 13):
1. Don't forget that the U.S will back Colombia all the way

As long as that backing isn't military intervention, I'm fine with that position.

Either way, the histrionics of Uncle Hugo will only incite more unrest and instability until he's taken out.


User currently offlineAlberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2958 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 9 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 1996 times:



Quoting Slider (Reply 22):
As long as that backing isn't military intervention, I'm fine with that position.

The U.S could use this as an excuse to get rid of Chavez once and for all.

Quoting AM744 (Reply 21):
No more that 3% since 1982 and almost 0% since then if we take into account inflation and population growth. Nothing stellar there

Didn't the introduction of NAFTA help things a bit ???



short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlineAM744 From Mexico, joined Jun 2001, 1787 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 9 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1973 times:



Quoting Alberchico (Reply 23):
Didn't the introduction of NAFTA help things a bit ???

It has, although the strategy was flawed: sell cheap uneducated labour. Poor vision if you ask me, specially when China and India can offer the very same thing (and more, since they ARE investing in R&D, Mexico isn't and never has) and are ten times larger. All in all, poor or even perverse public administration.


25 JM017 : Ah. Thanks for the clarification. I had forgotten the details.
26 UAL777 : The US better do whatever it takes. Colombia and the Uribe administration our by far our best ally in the southern hemisphere. We need to protect the
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