Kay From France, joined Mar 2002, 1884 posts, RR: 3 Reply 1, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1347 times:
Sad news if you ask me.
I love Porsches, but as the make-money-bug settles in, the cars are getting less and less specialized and more and more commercial. For example. today's Porsche 997 GT3 is the equivalent to what the 993 was. dry-sump, based on the same race engine, and a sports car as opposed to a GT which is what today's carrera, although a fabulous car, is.
Also, the Cayenne and the Panamera desperately need to go. What crap.
Yes, this new way of thinking rescusitated Porsche in the mid-90's when it was almost doomed. But from that extreme to other extreme of mass production is not good neither. They don't need to make that much money. It's their engineering, race wins and tough products that got them their reputation, not that flimsy interior that some of them have today (although still very well built compared to other manufacturers).
Dreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 7762 posts, RR: 22 Reply 2, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1340 times:
Quoting UTA_flyinghigh (Thread starter): Wonder why no one picked this up. Porsche becomes the majority shareholder of Volkswagen AG
Your thoughts ?
Pretty amazing, considering that Volkswagen once owned most of Porsche, and Porsche grew out of VW, with ideas and engineers who came from VW.
Kinda like if Pontiac were to buy out General Motors.
N1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 25852 posts, RR: 79 Reply 3, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1325 times:
Quoting Kay (Reply 1):
Also, the Cayenne and the Panamera desperately need to go.
Unfortunately, the Cayenne makes up some ridiculously high portion of Porsche's revenues and profits.
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
Pretty amazing, considering that Volkswagen once owned most of Porsche, and Porsche grew out of VW, with ideas and engineers who came from VW.
No, wrong, incorrect. The original Volkswagen was designed by Ferdinand Porsche and built by Dr. Ing h.c. F. Porsche AG, which is the company you know today as Porsche. Porsche owned VW, not the other way around.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13334 posts, RR: 64 Reply 4, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1312 times:
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2): Quoting UTA_flyinghigh (Thread starter):
Wonder why no one picked this up. Porsche becomes the majority shareholder of Volkswagen AG
Your thoughts ?
Pretty amazing, considering that Volkswagen once owned most of Porsche, and Porsche grew out of VW, with ideas and engineers who came from VW.
Kinda like if Pontiac were to buy out General Motors.
Quoting N1120A (Reply 3): Pretty amazing, considering that Volkswagen once owned most of Porsche, and Porsche grew out of VW, with ideas and engineers who came from VW.
No, wrong, incorrect. The original Volkswagen was designed by Ferdinand Porsche and built by Dr. Ing h.c. F. Porsche AG, which is the company you know today as Porsche. Porsche owned VW, not the other way around.
As far as I know the original Volkswagen company was founded by the Nazis in the 1930s to mass-produce an affordable car for the general public, designed by Porsche. It was state-owned for a large part. After WW2, as part of Germaby's armament industry (it build e.g. the Kuebelwagen for the Wehrmacht and Porsche was also involved in the design of the Tiger tank), it was supposed to be dismanteled, but the British Army, in which's zone of occupation the factory was based, needed a car for their occupational troops, so they continued to build the beetle.
Porsche himself wanted to build high performance cars, while VW built cars for the mass market (first the Beetle, later the Van and the Variant) and started his own company in the 1950s.
The current CEO of VW, Piech, is a member of Porsche's family, which also owns the Porsche company. Basically VW has been taken over by the Porsche/Piech family.
N1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 25852 posts, RR: 79 Reply 5, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1303 times:
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 4): As far as I know the original Volkswagen company was founded by the Nazis in the 1930s to mass-produce an affordable car for the general public, designed by Porsche.
Well, kinda sorta. Dr. Porsche founded Porsche AG in 1931 and his company designed and built the Type 12/Porsche 60/Beetle at the "request" of Adolf Hitler. Production of the Volkswagen then shifted to the state-owned company town of Wolfsburg, where VW still has its HQ. Then Porsche, mostly led by Ferdinand Porsche's son Ferry, really started with performance cars in earnest in 1948 with the introduction of the 356
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 4): It was state-owned for a large part. After WW2, as part of Germaby's armament industry (it build e.g. the Kuebelwagen for the Wehrmacht and Porsche was also involved in the design of the Tiger tank), it was supposed to be dismanteled, but the British Army, in which's zone of occupation the factory was based, needed a car for their occupational troops, so they continued to build the beetle.
VW was indeed state-owned after the Third Reich took over production of the VW. I believe it remained so for some time after the war.
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 4): The current CEO of VW, Piech, is a member of Porsche's family
Actually, Piech hasn't been CEO of VW since 2002. He is indeed Ferry Porsche's nephew
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 4): Basically VW has been taken over by the Porsche/Piech family.
Essentially.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
N328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6222 posts, RR: 3 Reply 6, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1283 times:
Quoting UTA_flyinghigh (Thread starter): Wonder why no one picked this up. Porsche becomes the majority shareholder of Volkswagen AG
They haven't become majority shareholder, they simply gave the go-ahead for that to occur.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
ME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13873 posts, RR: 28 Reply 7, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1274 times:
The cartel-authority still has to give their approval. I knew that Mr Porsche once developed the VW Beatle, and I in a way regarded Porsche as a VW subsidiary. That the majority owner of SEAT and Skoda now becomes majority owned by a former subsidiary is a bit confusing.
N1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 25852 posts, RR: 79 Reply 8, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1231 times:
Quoting N328KF (Reply 6):
They haven't become majority shareholder, they simply gave the go-ahead for that to occur.
Actually, PAG was quite reluctant to do so, preferring to keep VW independent. The decision to effect the takeover came when the signs were that VW was going to be the subject of a hostile takeover.
Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 7): The cartel-authority still has to give their approval.
That happened, for all intents and purposes, last year.
Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 7): That the majority owner of SEAT and Skoda now becomes majority owned by a former subsidiary is a bit confusing.
I think you are confused much in the same way others have been. VW sprung from Porsche, not the other way around.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
N328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6222 posts, RR: 3 Reply 9, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1231 times:
Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 7): The cartel-authority still has to give their approval. I knew that Mr Porsche once developed the VW Beatle, and I in a way regarded Porsche as a VW subsidiary. That the majority owner of SEAT and Skoda now becomes majority owned by a former subsidiary is a bit confusing.
They were not a subsidiary, though. Porsche and Volkswagen/Audi Group have been partners for years (witness the early 356 engines, the 914, and the Cayenne) but one was never a 'subsidiary' of the other.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
DEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4424 posts, RR: 1 Reply 10, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1187 times:
Quoting Kay (Reply 1): Sad news if you ask me.
I love Porsches, but as the make-money-bug settles in, the cars are getting less and less specialized and more and more commercial.
It'd be more shocking to know that the move was intended to enable the acquisition of a combined Scania/MAN AG giant to manufacture TRUCKS.....
N328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6222 posts, RR: 3 Reply 11, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1163 times:
Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 10): It'd be more shocking to know that the move was intended to enable the acquisition of a combined Scania/MAN AG giant to manufacture TRUCKS.....
Porsche's interest is not in trucks (though that's a booming market, and is very profitable. For Porsche, the MAN-Scania-VW Commercial Vehicles merger is just a sideshow. Porsche wants VW because of the ambitions of Ferdinand Piech, to help their carbon credit issues, and because VW makes a lot of money.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
N1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 25852 posts, RR: 79 Reply 12, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1157 times:
Quoting N328KF (Reply 11): Porsche wants VW because of the ambitions of Ferdinand Piech, to help their carbon credit issues, and because VW makes a lot of money.
Issues 2 and 3 are the most important. If they wanted to, Butzi and the rest of the big Porsche family shareholders could tell Piech to take a flying leap. The carbon credits and the fact that owning just 30% of VW meant Porsche took over 12 billion Euro in profits last year are the biggest economic motivations. Then again, as stated before, Porsche's biggest motivation is to shield VW from a hostile takeover by private equity.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
ZBBYLW From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 1922 posts, RR: 7 Reply 13, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1146 times:
So will this mean Porsche now will have control over VW and Audi? Maybe they were intimidated by the R8 (This comes from a heavily Porsche bias person). Not trying to knock on the 911 just saying the R8 is an amazing car!
Duff44 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1723 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1119 times:
I remember reading somewhere (looking for a source right now, I'll post it if I find it) that Porsche had first right of refusal to buy VW if they were looking to sell, mainly to keep the company "in German hands". I think Porsche was worried that VW would fall to Chinese/Japanese/other hands not from Germany.
N1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 25852 posts, RR: 79 Reply 15, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1106 times:
Quoting Duff44 (Reply 14): that Porsche had first right of refusal to buy VW if they were looking to sell
They did as soon as they bought 30%.
Quoting Duff44 (Reply 14): I think Porsche was worried that VW would fall to Chinese/Japanese/other hands not from Germany.
The main issue was the potential for a hostile takeover and subsequent raid by private equity, which would have likely eroded the profits Porsche takes in from their share of VW.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
ME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13873 posts, RR: 28 Reply 16, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1067 times:
Quoting N1120A (Reply 3): Porsche owned VW, not the other way around.
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Non-existing companies canNOT own a company, neither does a leading engineer. If you look under www.volkswagen.com/vwcms_publish/vwcms/master-public www.porsche.com/germany/aboutporschehistory/milestones
you can see that VW was established on 28th Mary 1937, and the first VWs or at that time "KdF = Kraft durch Freude - power through pleasure" got produeced in 1938. And under the command of British Major Ivan Hirst, the VW production started in late 1945. BUT the first "Porsche" car only got produced in 1948. So that whenever Messrs Porsche were managing VW, the separate brand and company only emerged later.
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And apparently as a separate company. A close look into the history above reveals that the two companies were far more separate then I thought they were.
N1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 25852 posts, RR: 79 Reply 17, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1061 times:
Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 16): BUT the first "Porsche" car only got produced in 1948.
That is incorrect. Porsche AG was founded in 1931 and the first car developed was the Type 12/Porsche 60/Beetle. The first Porsche built in-house was the Porsche 64, which used a lot of Type 12 parts.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
ME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13873 posts, RR: 28 Reply 18, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1054 times:
Quoting N328KF (Reply 9): They were not a subsidiary, though. Porsche and Volkswagen/Audi Group have been partners for years (witness the early 356 engines, the 914, and the Cayenne) but one was never a 'subsidiary' of the other.
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True. More important however is that the famous DKW which for years had a dominant role, was dropped by Audi later on.
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ME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13873 posts, RR: 28 Reply 19, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1047 times:
Quoting N1120A (Reply 17): Porsche AG was founded in 1931 and the first car developed
Sure, the company was founded in 1931, but the various cars they developed, were developed for other companies like VW and NSU, but were not marketed under the Porsche name. There according to the WEBsite of Porsche were no Porsche cars produced between 1931 and 1948.
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Amazing is that there were a number of Porsche prototypes, for instance an electric car, between 1900 and 1906 when Porsche got into employment at Daimler Austria.
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All this from their WEBsite.
CXfirst From Norway, joined Jan 2007, 2694 posts, RR: 1 Reply 20, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1033 times:
I find this incredibly surprising. If I had to guess, I would say Volkswagon were by far the biggest, and would be able to buy Porsche, not the other way around!!!
ME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13873 posts, RR: 28 Reply 21, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1021 times:
Quoting CXfirst (Reply 20): If I had to guess, I would say Volkswagon were by far the biggest
your "guess" would be completely correct, as VW indeed IS the biggest, but apparently not the one with the most money
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And in a German forum I found heaps of anti-VW comments, some of them claiming that VW at present produced for storage, that dealers had their warehouses full from the bottom to the top with unsold cars, etc. Difficult to check and to judge, but it does not sound good, not at all .
CXfirst From Norway, joined Jan 2007, 2694 posts, RR: 1 Reply 22, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1014 times:
Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 21): And in a German forum I found heaps of anti-VW comments, some of them claiming that VW at present produced for storage, that dealers had their warehouses full from the bottom to the top with unsold cars, etc. Difficult to check and to judge, but it does not sound good, not at all .
I was not aware of that at all. Is VW really doing that bad compared to an automobile producer that is directed at the upper-end of the market?
SAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 692 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1013 times:
Quoting CXfirst (Reply 20): find this incredibly surprising. If I had to guess, I would say Volkswagon were by far the biggest, and would be able to buy Porsche, not the other way around!!!
They say that size doesn't matter,it's how u use it that counts.....
ME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13873 posts, RR: 28 Reply 24, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1002 times:
Quoting CXfirst (Reply 22): Is VW really doing that bad compared to an automobile producer that is directed at the upper-end of the market?
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I don't know really. BUT, a German who worked here told me a year ago that he after having had VW cars for 18 years was now switching to either Peugeot or Renault, as the new VW models were not to his liking and far too expensive. Looks a bit as the man was with a trend.
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The long term chief of VW, Mr Piech, whose mother was a born Porsche, apparently has given up the chairmanship of VW right now. So that it looks as if something heavy is going on in Wolfsburg.
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I suppose that those in Rüsselsheim/Wartburg and those in Stuttgart and those in Munich are quite pleased with this.
25 N1120A: It isn't that VW is doing bad, it is that they are a bit over-extended because they went acquisition happy in the 1990s and were ripe for a hostile t
26 ME AVN FAN: I based my statement on press reports as this one - www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtschaft/artikel/216/161770/ - and this shows him as Aufsichtsratsvorsitzen
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