Srbmod From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 16888 posts, RR: 51 Posted (4 years 11 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2454 times:
Now that the Stanley Cup Finals are over and the fallout from the season has really begun in earnest, time for the NHL Off-Season Thread.
The coach carousel:
Atlanta: Chicago Wolves coach John Anderson was named today the Thrashers' Head Coach.
Tampa Bay: Torts was let go and the rumors are that the new ownership is going to bring the Mullet back to the NHL. I think Barry Melrose has been away from the game too long.
Florida: Peter DeBoer (Of the OHL's Kitchner Rangers) was named Panthers' head coach.
Toronto: Former SJ Head Coach Ron Wilson named Head Coach.
San Jose: Red Wings Assistant Coach Todd McLellan named Head Coach.
Ottawa: Former Blackhawks and Ducks Head Coach Craig Hartsburg named Head Coach.
Colorado: Former coach Tony Granato gets promoted again.
Kings: Still vacant (Wouldn't be surprised to see Paul Maurice or Joel Quenneville taking this dog of a coaching position.).
The draft is tonight (6/20/08) and Tampa Bay is expected to draft C Steve Stamkos with the #1 pick. My team, the Thrashers, pick third and will draft whichever defenseman LA passed on (Some wags are saying the Kings are high on Alex Pietrangelo, but Drew Doughty and Zach Bogosian are on their lists as well), and they are pretty much penciled in to be on the opening night roster. We also have Pittsburgh 1st round pick as well (#29) and we could either deal it for a player we could use immediately or pick up a player that could help us a season or two down the line.
So far, the predraft trades are somewhat unremarkable other than Nashville sending Chris Mason to the Blues for a 2008 fourth round pick. The Blues sent Jamal Mayers to the Leafs for a 2003 third round pick. Nashville also traded the rights of Darcy Hordichuk to Carolina for a 2009 fifth round pick, and if Hordichuk doesn't sign with the 'Canes, they get Nashville's 2010 fifth round pick.
In other news, Mats Sundin's days as a Leaf may be over as the Habs have been given permission to talk to him.
The NHL is threatening to strip MSG of their ownership of the Rangers as part of an ongoing battle between the two sides in regards to who gets to run the Rags' website. MSG has publicly accused the NHL or violating anti-trust laws and is suing the NHL for that, and the NHL has filed a counterclaim, saying that MSG has breach its' contract by challenging NHL rules and policies. Am I the only one rooting for the NHL?
Tom in NO From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 7194 posts, RR: 40 Reply 1, posted (4 years 11 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2451 times:
Quoting Srbmod (Thread starter): Kings: Still vacant (Wouldn't be surprised to see Paul Maurice or Joel Quenneville taking this dog of a coaching position.).
Unless Rogie Vachon, Marcel Dionne, and Dave Taylor are suddenly reincarnated, the Kings will remain the laughingstock of the NHL, and a very weak sister to the competition 40 miles down the road. The forum blue and gold will always be tops with me.....but they straight up suck...
Tom at MSy
"The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
They've got some decent pieces there, Jack Johnson, Jason LaBarbera, Anze Kopitar, Patrick O'Sullivan, Lubomir Visnovsky, and Michael Cammalleri. They're going to be living down the deal for Dan "I couldn't stop a beach ball" Cloutier for years to come. You can really trace the Kings' problems back to when McNall owned the team. The only real positives to come out of AEG's ownership is that they probably kept the team from folding or relocation and the move to the Staples Center. I'm beginning to wonder if the Kings are simply a tax write-off for AEG. As long as AEG owns them and really doesn't make any moves to really improve the team, they remain a doormat.
DeltaRules From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3623 posts, RR: 11 Reply 4, posted (4 years 11 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2414 times:
I hope that my Jackets work on adding a few worthwhile new faces to the roster. Howson said he wanted 2 top 6 centers, 2 defensemen & a winger. Umberger's a good start, but we still need more. And we've got plenty of money to spend on it.
I just hope Howson sticks to his guns on the "WIN NOW" attitude the team's going to take. Any more of "let's build our prospects because we'll have a GREAT team 5 years from now" & I'll be unhappy. I'm still a bit sore that all we got for Sergei Fedorov was a defenseman from Notre Dame.
Srbmod From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 16888 posts, RR: 51 Reply 5, posted (4 years 11 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2406 times:
Quoting DeltaRules (Reply 4): I'm still a bit sore that all we got for Sergei Fedorov was a defenseman from Notre Dame.
Probably not as sore as the Pens fans will probably be, as the talks between Marian Hossa and the Pens have broken off and he will test the waters in Free Agency. Rumors are that the Pens offered him a 7 year, $7 million/year deal, and he's wanting $8 million+ a year. The Pens cannot give him more than $7 million unless they want to risk losing Malkin or Staal (RFA) after next season or Fleury come July 1 (He'll be a RFA). In addition, the Pens have several core players who will be free agents come July 1st (Ryan Malone, Brooks Orpik, Gary Roberts). Dupuis has already stated that he would like to remain with the Pens, as he too is a free agent. In short, Shero was mugged by Don Waddell (Who somewhat covered his tracks for that bone-headed Coburn for Zhitnik trade at the deadline in 2007 when he drafted Zach Bogosian last night.).
I'm definitely happy with the Thrashers drafting Bogosian, iffy on our other pick in the 1st round, Daulton Leveille a center from the St. Catherines Falcons of the Golden Horseshoe League, a Junior B. league. He was the fastest skater at the Combine and will be playing college hockey at Michigan State. He's small, listed at 5'11" 163 lbs. He'll hopefully add few inches and add another 40+ lbs in the next few years. One pick that I thought was interesting is that they drafted a local player, Vinny Saponari, who has been playing for the USA U-18 Team and will be attending Boston University in the Fall. He's only the second Georgia-born player taken in the NHL draft (Eric Chouinard, the son of former NHL player Guy Chouinard, was the first back in '98).
Some of the trades last night were definitely some big ones. Jokinen to Phoenix for Keith Ballard, Nick Boynton, and the Coyotes' 2nd Round pick definitely is the blockbuster. This definitely makes the Panthers stronger on the blueline. One trade today that caught my eye was Phoenix traded a 2008 third round pick (#90, originally the Pens' pick) to the Rangers for Alex Bourret, who was the Thrashers' first round pick in 2005 and was traded at the deadline to the Rags in 2007 for Pascal Dupuis and a 2007 3rd Round pick. Hope Gretzky can get the tub of poutine into shape (He's shown up to camp with both the Thrashers and the Rags overweight and out of shape.), as he was a pretty decent player in the Q (His last season in the Q he scored 44 goals and had 70 assists.).
JFK69 From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1381 posts, RR: 1 Reply 6, posted (4 years 11 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2402 times:
As an Islander fan, I can only hope Garth Snow (and the rest of the committee) get hit by a bus. The first round was a total fleecing.....By Ourselves. We had the 5th pick which we traded down to TOR and then traded that for the 9th pick. And who did we pick.........Josh Bailey???
Nothing against Bailey as he looks like a decent 2 way forward (second to Stamkos in scoring) but we passed on Filatov who would have been the face of the franchise and put fannies in the seats which is exactly what the Isles need right now. Snow an Company blew it since Bailey was really projected at about the 12-15 range. Filatov should have been our man.
Now he did do some nice work of stockpiling draft picks and restocking the system with some good names (Trivino, Toews) but the real steal may be the 73rd pick in Kirill Petrov who many say is as good as Filatov, only issue with him is actually getting him to the states.
MaidensGator From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 945 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (4 years 11 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2392 times:
Quoting Srbmod (Reply 5): The Pens cannot give him more than $7 million unless they want to risk losing Malkin or Staal (RFA) after next season or Fleury come July 1 (He'll be a RFA).
The news a couple days ago was that the Pens were trying to deal Malkin to the Kings for that second overall pick so they could afford to pay Hossa the $8 million. Obviously that fell through, but they have offered Fleury salary arbitration thus preventing him from becoming an RFA. They're definitely going to lose some valuable members of this year's team...
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.
Which I think is a terrible thing. 18-year-olds shouldn't be playing pro sports. It has been proven time and again that the human body grows until at least age 20, sometimes up until 22. All we're doing with these kids is make sure that they develop all sorts of nasty ailments when they turn 45 (arthritis, malfunctioning kidneys, bloated muscle mass).
As a general rule I think junior and college ranks also get depleted of prime talent. I understand it's the rule of the business but that doesn't make it any more acceptable from a sports point of view.
I will always praise Lou Lamoriello for taking a safe and careful approach with his much-lauded development system. We've seen very, very few players jumping straight out of the draft into the Devils' roster (Petr Sykora excepted) over the last 15 years and I think this is a good thing.
MillwallSean From Brunei, joined Apr 2008, 1115 posts, RR: 5 Reply 9, posted (4 years 11 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2372 times:
I like icehockey and this was the first time that I followed the draft. Not followed live but read up on it and did some analysis of it.
First thing that bothers me. No Slovak players at all drafted. Another big issue only 3 Czech players drafted.
Its getting dangerous if the sport is about to loose the talentpool that has come from these two countries. I hope this was just a one off and not a trend. The world of icehockey is way to small to loose two of its prominent members.
Another thing I dont understand. In todays NHL about 30% of the players come from Europe, yet only 10% of the draftchoices are European. Using my simple math it seems like Canadian juniors are overrepresented in the drafts.
Since I am in Sweden at the moment I understand that Swedish commentators were just shaking their heads at some of the Swedish picks wondering if certain clubs even bothered to have a look at the player.
Apparently they were saying that only Detroit and a few others do real scouting in Sweden, the rest do measurement and youtube scouting (meaning video and looking at stats)
Stamkos will be great but we already knew that.
However my winner in this draft is Vancouver. They made a great pick.
Losers will be LA, two early picks and both, to me, have all signs of not living up to expectations.
Another looser will be New Jersey, Tedenby will not fit with their system and hasn't been able to step up to seniors yet. Big question-mark over him according to the locals here.
New Jersey also have a history of failing with swedes and Tedenby didnt seem to thrilled about being chosen by them in his interviews over here.
And they have 4 Cups in 10 seasons to show for it.
The good thing about hockey is that if you stuff up your drafting/development, you end up paying dearly. Just ask any Leafs or Rangers' fan.
And it may also be that some years the talent pool is deeper in certain countries than others. It's a cyclical thing. You can see that Canada has won a truckload of WJC in a row over the past few years, thus proving the superior depth of Canada's talent pool.
GQfluffy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 11, posted (4 years 11 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2352 times:
Well...does this mean Pit won't be returning to the Finals? Did they get there overloaded on talent? Hossa is gone after, IMHO, getting a very decent offer. $7 million a season for 7 years? Are you kidding me? He ain't Sidney Crosby. Hell, he ain't even Malkin, and Malkin sucked when it counted the most. What'll hurt the Pens the most is Orpik leaving, and possibly Malone (which I don't think will happen...but you never know).
YooYoo From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 6055 posts, RR: 53 Reply 12, posted (4 years 11 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2351 times:
So, Sundin may become a Hab!! As a Leaf fan i hope that we get a good package back from Montreal should this move happen. We could have got a lot for him before the trade deadline. I decision must happen before July 1 !!
I am so smart, i am so smart... S-M-R-T... i mean S-M-A-R-T
MillwallSean From Brunei, joined Apr 2008, 1115 posts, RR: 5 Reply 13, posted (4 years 11 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2349 times:
Quoting YooYoo (Reply 12): So, Sundin may become a Hab!! eek As a Leaf fan i hope that we get a good package back from Montreal should this move happen. We could have got a lot for him before the trade deadline. I decision must happen before July 1 !!
No Sundin had a no trade clause so they could not trade him on deadline day.
Sundin was one of six or seven players with the leafs that had this no trade clause. He has spent 13 years at the leafs and then the new GM publicly makes him the villian of the trade deadline day. To Sundin that was a an ultimate form of betrayal and something you just dont do to a bloke that has been loyal and given his all for the club for such a longtime.
Canadians might not see it that way but Sundin is a Swede and for him he has been treated bad and trust is lost. He is disappointed with the leafs and has publicly stated that.
I doubt that he will sign anything with Montreal before the 1st of July.
There is absolutely zero incentive for him to to help a GM that stabbed him in the back. If he does he is a very special man.
It amazes me that high ranking officials in the NHL dont have any cultural management skills. After all 30% of the players are European and its not that hard to learn a little bit about their values. It would improve realtions, save money for their franchises and assist with teamspirit.
YooYoo From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 6055 posts, RR: 53 Reply 15, posted (4 years 11 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2345 times:
Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 13): No Sundin had a no trade clause so they could not trade him on deadline day.
I'm aware of that which would make me a little bitter if he goes somewhere else after pledging his allegiance to the Leaf organization. If he truly "loves" Toronto and the fans as he says, he would have let (at trade deadline) the trade go through (GM fletcher asked him to waive his no movement clause) so we could get something back. I believe he is honourable and will take the deal with Montreal IF he wants to play again just so the Leafs get something in return. I hear Gainey may fly to Sweden for a face to face with him.
Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 13): the new GM publicly makes him the villain of the trade deadline day
That trade talk was going to get out sooner or later, it is the managers job to see what possibilities are out there and could be done and this was presented to Sundin. Sundin refused and Fletcher respected his decision. I don't think the "villain" mentality was not perceived that way here. There are some that were pissed but i think the majority understood what he did by not going elsewhere and staying true to the blue and white. Now the true villain is Kubina, agreeing to a trade and then saying "no", but that's another thread/post.
Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 13): There is absolutely zero incentive for him to to help a GM that stabbed him in the back
That same manager brought him over to the Leafs so many years ago and from what i hear Cliff Fletcher is one of the most respected mangers out there treating all with respect and dignity
I am so smart, i am so smart... S-M-R-T... i mean S-M-A-R-T
WunalaYann From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2839 posts, RR: 31 Reply 16, posted (4 years 11 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2330 times:
Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 11): does this mean Pit won't be returning to the Finals? Did they get there overloaded on talent?
What you are getting here is the absurdity of the salary cap. Basically, a team that does its homework by drafting and developing prime time talent can kiss all this hard work goodbye as soon as the players turn 25, e.g. right when they enter their prime.
This is ridiculous.
As always, I would suggest some rather radical changes to the rules. First of all, I would impose that at least half of the roster of any team, at any time, be made up of draftees from this particular team. Of course, we can include grandfather clauses for expansion teams who have not had the time to pile up as many picks and prospects as older teams. Also, current contracts should be honoured.
The consequence should be that draftees' contracts should be taken out of the salary cap. There's no reason why the Penguins should have to worry about "cap space" to re-sign Malkin, Crosby, Fleury, Letang, Whitney or Malone. The cap should only apply to the other half of the team, composed of trades and free agents.
The expiration of the NHL-IIHF transfer agreement may have played a role in this year's draft. There were only five European players taken in the 1st Round, and two of those were Russian players that the teams that drafted them may have issues getting them here (Remember the whole Malkin affair?). The other three came from Sweden. Overall, there were 39 European players taken in the draft (Out of 211 players), with most of them being from teams in Sweden, Finland, and Russia. Actually there were more European players drafted this year than last, but not by much. I'm guessing NHL teams have a little bit better relationships with the SM-liiga and the Elitserien than they do with the other European leagues, and are also willing to chance it with Russian players.
What could happen is that since there are no transfer fees paid to a player's former team in Europe, those teams in Europe could actually entice their players to stay with higher salaries. Under the current NHL CBA, there's a maximum amount for an entry level contract and the max yearly salary for an entry contract for this year's draft class is $875,000 and can earn up to a 10% signing bonus as well as team performance bonuses up to $850,000 (Max of $215,000 per bonus). Leagues in Europe could entice younger European players with higher contract deals than what they could get in the NHL, and the Continental Hockey League (Which is replacing the Russia Super League) is has already made overtures to Malkin.
Us330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3742 posts, RR: 14 Reply 18, posted (4 years 11 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2321 times:
I could not agree with you more. Why should teams suffer because they have great scouting departments and acquired their talent in the more traditional manner? The fact that the Pens are possibly considering trading Malkin because of this is nucking futs.
What do you mean L.A. lost big time at the draft?
Dean Lombardi has an excellent track record (see his stockpiling of San Jose with top prospects) and is slowly turning the Kings around. Most hockey journalists, in fact, loved both of L.A.'s picks. Once all that talent comes of age, they will be a force to be reckoned with.
They say Doughty will be a great complement to Jack Johnson on the blue line.
Brian Burke and his quackers also managed to pull of a steal according to some analysts, drafting Deschamps in the top of the second round.
Also, never count out Ken Holland.
Steeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 8808 posts, RR: 19 Reply 19, posted (4 years 11 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2316 times:
Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 16): There's no reason why the Penguins should have to worry about "cap space" to re-sign Malkin, Crosby, Fleury, Letang, Whitney or Malone. The cap should only apply to the other half of the team, composed of trades and free agents.
I haven't read the Post Gazette or Trib yet, but the news yesterday was that Malkin turned down a whopper of a deal by several Russian teams. Malkin told his manager, who told the press that he wants to remain in Pittsburgh, and he wants the Pens to re-sign as many talented free-agents as they can.
Regarding Hossa, I was rather bumbed that he turned down the Pens' offer, but I think he just wants to be sure about the whole free-agency bit. He would like to play for the Pens, but I think, of course, that he would also like to play for quite a chunk of change, and as if $7 million a year isn't big enough. If I were Hossa, I'd accept that in less time it would take me to blink...
Ryan Malone, I think he's doing the same thing as Hossa...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
GQfluffy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 20, posted (4 years 11 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2310 times:
Quoting Us330 (Reply 18): Why should teams suffer because they have great scouting departments and acquired their talent in the more traditional manner? The fact that the Pens are possibly considering trading Malkin because of this is nucking futs.
Like the Wings? The Wings are where they are now because of scouting, NOT drafting #1 pics ala the Pens. No scouting was needed for Fluery, Crosby, nor Malkin. Hossa was brought in at the trade deadline. Maybe Malone and Orpik were scouting genius, but not them other guys. Don't buy it in this case. Maybe this means the Pens were overloaded like the Wings were in 2002. Those Wings would be in the same position that the Pens are in today.
WunalaYann From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2839 posts, RR: 31 Reply 21, posted (4 years 11 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2306 times:
Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 19): Malkin told his manager, who told the press that he wants to remain in Pittsburgh, and he wants the Pens to re-sign as many talented free-agents as they can.
Yeah. Well. I will wait for him to sign for that lower amount to stay with the Pens and help them sign other free agents. There is a factor that should not be discounted - NHLPA pressure. If stars start taking less money to remain with their mates, they're basically lowering the bar for other free agents, arbitration or not. That was the whole issue with Iginla's situation in '02.
Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 20): No scouting was needed for Fluery, Crosby, nor Malkin
The Pens did pass on Staal, Phaneuf, Zherdev, Michalek, etc. to pick Fleury and throw him to the lions. Those have turned out to be decent contributors, to use a massive understatement.
And as a general rule, the draft is here to address the issue of a bottom-feeding team. I am quite sure that the Pens would rather be the Wings or the Devils, never missing the playoffs while always coming up with strong prospects. But they got lucky in a sense that they were scheisse when there was an abundance of future superstars available.
That doesn't discount the quality of their drafting.
Quoting Srbmod (Reply 17): the Continental Hockey League (Which is replacing the Russia Super League) is has already made overtures to Malkin.
And was turned down. I do think that the CHL will be more successful with older Russian players wishing to come back home but not for peanuts.
MillwallSean From Brunei, joined Apr 2008, 1115 posts, RR: 5 Reply 22, posted (4 years 11 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2291 times:
The CHL will go from strength to strength. But its quite a few years away from competing for the best players.
I think top minutes is more important than age for lots of Euros playing in the NHL. If CHL clubs offer topminutes and a higher salary quite a few players might jump.
Malkin, he will stay for another season, after that things gets really interesting and the Penguins really have to step it up to keep him.
Why because his contract expires after next season, he is RFA, and this allows him to leave for Russia and still play for his country and in the olympics. If he left now he would breach his contract and be stopped from international icehockey something few Europeans want.
To who asked me about LA. I believe their picks will not pan out as well as you would expect from a second and a thirteenth? pick. I reckon Doughty will be an ok NHL defender not more and for a second round pick thats not enough to be considered a success. The other bloke has lower potential, third pairing if you ask me.
But its all speculation and was my guess about winners and loosers in the draft. I listened to what Detroits and Montreals Euro scouts said as well.
My german friend:
Everyone can have different opinions about what Sundin should have done, but fact remains he had a no trade clause, a well earned one I must say, and it was his descision to make.
My opinion is that the GM didnt handle this whole saga well, if he would have been a skilled man to man GM I am sure he would have gotten Sundin to agree to alot of things but he chose to play hardball and his return for it will most likely be zero.
To me he has poisoned the relationship with what is Torontos best player since the early eighties. Its a waste of resources and financial stupidity to not maximise the value you can get from an asset and thats what he has done with Sundin.
The owners of the maple leafs, apparently he wont negotiate anything with Fletcher anymore, have said that they have offered Sundin a new one year contract with a no trade clause in it. Will he agree to it, probably not, and will he allow himself to be traded before he is UFA, probably not.
I think he is pondering if he wants to play for another club or if he prefers to finish his career a year or two earlier than what he planned for.
The Sundin saga has soured more than just the relationship with Sundin. Fellow maple leaf Steen has come out in Swedish newspapers and publicly stated that such treatment of players makes him very disappointed with Toronto as an organisation.
Its difficult for North Americans to understand this, but breaking a negotiated deal is seen as something really bad by most Swedes. A promise is a promise and should always be honoured over here.
Same thing happened with Stralman. He was promised a spot on the rooster before he signed and came over. When he showed for camp they said he had to compete for his rooster spot and that he would start in the Marlies. No big deal for a Canadian or American but a clear break of faith for a Swede resulting in an unhappy player. And AHL is for most swedes a big step down and not something thats worth playing in.
Swedes are very easy to deal with, keep it honest and they will give their hearts for you but start smoothtalking and they will remember it for a long time. The best Toronto can do is to trade Stralman because he will never fulfil his potential in Toronto after this.
Overall conslusion, the benefits of having a cultural man management program like Detroits is huge...
Yes German flag for the Euro 08 support, but i do live in the Toronto area.
Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 22): Everyone can have different opinions about what Sundin should have done, but fact remains he had a no trade clause, a well earned one I must say, and it was his descision to make.
I am a huge Sundin fan. Perhaps my view has been clouded by the media and the media have twisted Sundin's words.
I still support Fletcher. My blame lies with Pettie and his lawyer Friend not getting their act together with regards to finding a new GM. I'm sure you know Fletcher was brought in as a temp. man and i'm sure the higher ups including Taunenbaum have their finger in this forcing Fletcher to make moves/comments he wasn't comfortable in making.
Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 22): they have offered Sundin a new one year contract with a no trade clause in it
i heard that today. >$7M. Not bad, but he's not coming back, Rangers and now maybe Florida want him (So Belak says)
Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 22): Overall conslusion, the benefits of having a cultural man management program like Detroits is huge...
Interesting, never knew that.
I am so smart, i am so smart... S-M-R-T... i mean S-M-A-R-T