If it can help revive the U.S. steel industry, I'm reluctantly for it. The U.S. steel industry has virtually been destroyed by steel from abroad from countries who pay dirt cheap labor and dump their steel over here.
Alpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (12 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1277 times:
Naturally, the EU is upset at the U.S. on this one. They don't have a problem shoving the Kyoto Treaty down our colletive throats-which the U.S. taxpayer would pay dearly to impliment, but they get outraged when we try to protect an industry that has taking a beating over the last 25 years because of cheap imports. Tough luck, I say.
Mcdougald From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (12 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1274 times:
Let's just say there's one thing I've learned from observing politics and politicians, and even involving myself a bit in the past: there's no such thing as 'too cynical'. As one politician was bold enough to admit to writer Ron Kessler in 'Inside Congress', people often aren't cynical enough.
Or, as one of my university professors put it about ten years ago: "In politics, two and two does not necessarily equal four. In fact, if you add up two and two in politics and get four, you've probably got the wrong answer."
Both were good observations I've never been given cause to doubt.
Nik From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (12 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1269 times:
"Naturally, the EU is upset at the U.S. on this one. They don't have a problem shoving the Kyoto Treaty down our colletive throats-which the U.S. taxpayer would pay dearly to impliment, but they get outraged when we try to protect an industry that has taking a beating over the last 25 years because of cheap imports. Tough luck, I say."
Well, we all know that the purpose of the EU is to destroy the US, their economy, democracy and their sovereignty. No, wait that was the UN, wasn't it...?
But then again, who cares, the rest of the world is evil and wants to destroy the US, we all know that....
Cfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (12 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1259 times:
I understand the reasons, but the economic benefits (maintaining an uncompetitive industry through tariffs, thus reducing sector unemployment) is economically unsound in the long run, as it makes the consumer pay higher prices for steel, and the savings that would have been made, which would have gone to other purchases, groiwing other sectors of the economy and promoting jobs there, are lost.
As far as enemployment goes, it's a zero-sum gain, for economic development, it's a losing decision, and for foreign policy it's a major upset. In short, a mistake.
Pacificjourney From New Zealand, joined Jul 2001, 2734 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (12 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1251 times:
You forgot to mention NATO, OECD, WTO, WHO, CNN, the Red Cross, Airbus, APEC ..... all those bastards are just out to do the US down ... LOL
Working for a massively tax-payer subsidised indutry yourself it isn't at all surprising that you agree with this. Will be interesting to see how you feel when your next new car/fridge/washing machine/lawn mower etc are much more expensive because of it ?
GDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13297 posts, RR: 77
Reply 13, posted (12 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1243 times:
The EU will retaliate, which exposes the flaw in the policy, isn't most steel dumping from 3rd world nations, or 'Asian Tiger' economies like South Korea?
The only EU nations that were (note the past tense), still subsidising steel was Spain and possibly Belgium, I could be wrong there.
Anyway, no one wins in a trade war, so is this more about internal US politics?
Banco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 14, posted (12 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1218 times:
True enough, GDB. In fact as an advocate of free trade over several decades the US knows as well as anyone that tariffs rarely work.
Whilst dumping does occur, the WTO is usually the forum for arguing the case if it involves the likes of the EU, rather than simply raising trade barriers.
I suspect this is for domestic consumption at a time when the priority is maintaining US employment. To that end, I don't think we can blame the US Government for the decision. The problem is that there could yet be repercussions for world trade - and that is bad news for all of us in the long run.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
Scotty From UK - Scotland, joined Dec 1999, 1875 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (12 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1180 times:
The US loses in the long run because now US manufacturers in the automobile industry and others will HAVE to buy US steel at a level of price which will be hiked up and fixed at a non competitive rate by US producers (the word "cartel" comes to mind). Exporting these products will become a no-go area, especially to the Pacific Rim countries.
In the EU, there are steel companies which export almost exclusively to the US and have laid off all staff today. We should now consider how best to respond, possibly by slapping import tariffs of say 30% on US steel products such as airliners and encouraging more of the European airlines to buy Airbus, for starters. I suspect that the likes of Boeing were already having to dig deep to find competitive prices for selling to the likes of Ryanair, so such action would hit where it hurts, especially with demand for new airliners at a virtual standstill.
Sorry to be ruthless, but if you play with fire....
Prebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6580 posts, RR: 54
Reply 20, posted (12 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1161 times:
Politics is one thing, but how can it be so that US steel producers cannot compete on the world market while EU producers can?
Well, US managers "earn" ten or a hundred times more than EU managers do. But steel production is a typical "low skilled labor heavy" industry. And low skilled labor is in fact lower paid in the US than in the big EU steel producing countries. Shorter holidays in the US etc. They should have a competitive advantage over the EU.
What makes US steel producers so much more inefficient that they cannot even compete with the EU on the world market? What is wrong? After all producing steel is nothing new to them over there. As far as I know they produced steel for the Ford T themselves. Are they running the same outdated plants as they did 80 years ago?
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
PanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (12 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1154 times:
I'll be honest, the steel mills have threatened bankruptcy before, but just had to reallign themselves competitively. But this is the first time I remember that foreign trade was at fault.
My family is well connected to the steel industry and I am almost 100% postitive that the strating pay for an 18 year old kid is $40,000 USD per year. That is pretty high, there are many college graduates who don't earn that high after graduation.
So maybe the US government should have forced the steel companies to compete on their own, I guess we'll see the answer if their is a trade war.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
Alpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (12 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1142 times:
Working for a massively tax-payer subsidised indutry yourself it isn't at all surprising that you agree with this.
Sorry Pacificjoruney, but my industry is not massively tax-payer subsidized. The airlines received a ONE-TIME government grant WHEN THE GOVERNMENT STOPPED US FROM FLYING FOR FOUR DAYS-that's what the grant covered-the losses we incurred on those days that we were NOT ALLOWED to do business!! Now, you can cry about that, but how much would the flying public be crying had 3, 4, 5 carriers gone under because we were grounded? This history of aviation in the US is not of subsidies-in Europe, and in other places in the world? That's another story.
The steel industry is different-it's been getting killed by cheap-labor steel makers overseas for 2 decades, and I think, reluctantly, if it's going to have a chance to survive, a tarriff is necessary in the short run. Comparing the two is a bit far-fetched on your part.
Watewate From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 2284 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (12 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1134 times:
I second the notion that this tariff is just delaying the inevitable. It's time for US to wake up and realize that it just cannot compete with others when it comes to steel. Better eat the crow for a quick death rather than dragging this out and making it a slow, long, painful death (not to mention wasteful).
: Alpha, If you read my earlier post, you'll find that there is no employment benefit by saving the steel industry, unless it is saved by becoming more
: Yup.... I'm no economist, but I have had a few classes. And this tariff just sounds like a bad idea. Best to let the nations that have a comparative a
: >>I'm no economist, but I have had a few classes. And this tariff just sounds like a bad idea. Best to let the nations that have a comparative advanta
: Whatever happened to the idea of free trade? First softwood lumber and now this...its the 80s all over again.
: As stated earlier, the production of steel is critical to National Security. You can't just outsource it. National Security depends on a country's abi
: True, it is a national security issue to an extent. However, with all the management knowhow, skilled labor force, resource and cost bases in the U.S.
31 D L X
: Just curious, cuz this isn't an area of expertise for me. Why can't we (the US) make steel competitively against EU manufacturers? The EU of course ha
: DLX, Here's why. Unions, management practices and production technology more in tune with the 1930's than with the 21st century, so entrenched that it
: There has been substantial cutbacks in steel production in the EU, especially in countries like the UK where massive privatisation has taken place ove
: It seem's that with the WTC also the attitude of "world trade" died in the united states. First the huge subsidies for the airlines, and now this deci
: The claims of there being a national security issue are totally bogus. As Scotty points out we are not talking about the possible future need for buil
: I can agree with the bailing outs of the airlines because as Alpha said,they were prevented from doing buisness for 4 days.On the other the steel indu
: IT'S ABOUT TIME! ! ! ! ! !! ! *This has to be the smartest move by ANY republican President in over 80 years! I am very suprised but very happy to see
: superfly That is exactly the point. American jobs are NOT being protected, American steel companies are being protected ! In the short term related in
: American steel companies are being protected ! So be it! Would you be content with working class settling for telemarketing jobs? The steel industry i
: Sorry Superfly but you just have this one all wrong. Nobody wins from this, Nobody !!!
: Every industry has it's peaks and valleys. The steel industruy is a very solid industry. It's been around for over 150 years. I don't forsee a demise
: Tariffs essentially amount to long-term corporate welfare for short-term political benefit. They are almost never temporary nor short-term, even if th
: Mcdougald: I agree with you except on the corporate welfare comment. That's what tax loopholes are. Lower water prices for tobacco farmers in North Ca
: Superfly, it is about national security. Wouldn't you want any and all weapons material to come from the USA instead of China, Korea, and so on? You n
: Superfly wrote: "That's what tax loopholes are. Lower water prices for tobacco farmers in North Carolina is an example of corporate welfare." I agree
: PamAm747: I was born and raised in Gary, Indiana. It is a depressed rust belt town. I've seen the demise of the steel industry and our entire region i
: Apparently the tariff will lead to a 10%rise in the price of steel! Superfly,do you have MSN messenger?
: Donder10: I haven't set it up yet on my home computer. I am at work right now and I really shouldn't be on the net right now. Busy deadlines we have t
: Yea,you better gone on with work instead of here lol!
: It's a national security issue?! Don't make me laugh! Let's say the US can't import ANYTHING, due to an enemy's military action. The US would surrende
: The trouble with those tariffs is that even without all the automatic global countermeasures, american workers will be hit hard. There are many more a
: Interesting point: will you all be praising the "tarrif" when Boeing is paying 1.6-2 times the price for steel? Want to see another 30000 loose their
: >>Some businesses will have to shut down because there isn´t even sufficient supply for some special steel products in the USA - without being able t
: PanAm- I agree steel prodution is important, but there are pleanty of other areas which as just as and even more important when regarding manufacturin
: Just to straighten some people out : Several people have said that Aircraft are built of steel. You'd have a pretty tough time getting a steel plane i
: PanAm747: No, this was taken care of when Bush allowed companies to get steel from overseas if they needed a special kind not produced in the USA or t
: Klaus- Yes, I hope the steel makers take this time to come up with a long-term solution. >>If strategic industries are inefficient and incompetitive i
: PanAm747: No, you still need a way to keep them operating, as many wars as the USA gets into, the country needs a domestic producer of steel. Then the
: Swedish steel industry will loose 100.000.000 Euros a year on exports because of it. Hope it's taken away again..