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Sudan: Retaliation Against The Hague?  
User currently offlineBlackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1131 times:

Sudan: Retaliation Against the Hague?
Tuesday, Jul. 15, 2008 By SAM DEALEY / KHARTOUM

URL: http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...,00.html?xid=feed-yahoo-full-world

Quote:
The reaction in the Sudanese capital was deceptively muted after the chief prosecutor for the International Criminal Court (ICC), Luis Moreno-Ocampo, charged Sudanese President Omar Hassan al-Bashir Monday with war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide in Darfur's five-year war. Only hundreds of people gathered outside a U.N. compound to protest Moreno-Ocampo's announcement, and government officials largely refrained from the fiery outbursts reporters have come to expect.

Coolness, however, should not be confused with inaction. Bunkered in government compounds across Khartoum, the Sudanese government quietly mobilized for a campaign of retaliation. "This is a declaration of war," Dr. Ghazi Salahuedin, a top adviser to President al-Bashir and the parliamentary leader of the ruling National Congress Party, told TIME.
Moreno-Ocampo insists that he is merely a prosecutor and that it is up to the ICC's judges, who are based in the Hague in the Netherlands, to issue an arrest warrant for al-Bashir. Sudan's government, however, has no intention of arguing its case in court. Whether the prosecutor likes it or not, the battle he faces will be intensely political. At risk is not just al-Bashir's reign or peace in Darfur, but the court itself.
While Sudan's U.N. ambassador says his country will not retaliate against the U.N., high-ranking and influential officials in Khartoum indicate otherwise. On Monday, Sudan's Vice President, Ali Osman Taha, said al-Bashir personally conveyed the warning to U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon. Sudan is "fully committed to all of our obligations," he said, quoting Bashir, "but if they take any step that will jeopardize the Sudanese government, we will make our move." Salahuedin, one of al-Bashir's top advisers, laid out what the moves might be: an escalating menu of reprisals, including kicking out humanitarian organizations, declaring prominent Western diplomats persona non grata and even dismissing U.N. and African Union peacekeepers. "Send them out," Salahuedin said, "because the U.N. has declared us Public Enemy No. 1. Why shouldn't we?"

Read the rest at the link posted up-top.


Who knows what else they'll do. If the ICC gets taken out, there will be no means to try war-criminals via international law. Then who will put Bush and Cheney on trial after their term in office is over?


Andrea Kent
"Should I disappear, die mysteriously, commit suicide, get a heart-attack, cancer, or some incurable disease, or end up arrested under a bunch of bogus charges you know who to blame for it."

17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineHuskyAviation From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1153 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1117 times:

Quoting Blackbird (Thread starter):
Who knows what else they'll do. If the ICC gets taken out, there will be no means to try war-criminals via international law.

Unless the ICC can be toppled with spears and rocks, I think it will survive the vicious Sudanese onslaught.  

Quoting Blackbird (Thread starter):
"Should I disappear, die mysteriously, commit suicide, get a heart-attack, cancer, or some incurable disease, or end up arrested under a bunch of bogus charges you know who to blame for it."

Or who to thank for it.  duck 

[Edited 2008-07-15 13:18:53]

User currently offlineBlackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1106 times:

Do you even realize why the ICC is important?

Blackbird


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21525 posts, RR: 53
Reply 3, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1101 times:



Quoting Blackbird (Thread starter):
If the ICC gets taken out

A military or terrorist attack on the Netherlands would invoke the collective NATO defense status with an appropriate response. Not something Sudan would be advised to provoke, chinese and russian backing or not. Neither would back them up that far.

Quoting Blackbird (Thread starter):
"Should I disappear, die mysteriously, commit suicide, get a heart-attack, cancer, or some incurable disease, or end up arrested under a bunch of bogus charges you know who to blame for it."

You know, the biggest danger you're setting yourself up for will probably be psychosomatic health problems as a consequence of permanent fear and panic.

You can check the forums if you want: I'm probably about as far removed from being a fan of the Bush administration as it gets while still staying within the borders of democratic dispute.

But even so that government may be a black mark on the history of the USA (we can repeat a discussion about that elsewhere) but even this kind of black mark is worlds apart from the total ruin and destruction you keep imagining. Take it from a german: It could be a whole lot worse!

Just relax a little — there are only a few months left!
(And "even" McCain would be like a fresh start in many respects by comparison.)


User currently offlineHuskyAviation From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1153 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1095 times:



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 2):
Do you even realize why the ICC is important?

If you're going to unleash a long, pointless, paranoia-laden soliloquy about how the ICC is so vital because they must protect you from the black bag boogeyman and their further necessity to indict, kidnap, prosecute, imprison and string up every dastardly member of the evil Bush Administration, please save your energy. I don't care.

Honestly, Blackbird, as Klaus said, you need to chill out about the government coming after you. To be blunt, you're simply not that important.


User currently offlinePetertenthije From Netherlands, joined Jul 2001, 3395 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1085 times:

On the news it was reported that sonm aid agencies and UN staff are already pulling out of Sudan into Angola and Ethiopia. The troops stationed in Darfur are still there and there are no indications they will leave soon. Thus at least most vital humanitarian aid should still continue.

I would not expect Sudan to launch an attack at NL. I don't think they'd be that stupid. However, the Dutch troops stationed in Darfur might. We'll see what happens.



Attamottamotta!
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 6, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1074 times:

No, there won't be retaliation against The Hague, the Sudan perfectly knows that, as Klaus said, a terrorist attack by Sudan on the Netherlands would turn all of NATO against them (search for Article 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty).

If there is retaliation by Sudan for a possible arrest warrant against al-Bashir, it's against the UN troops, and especially against the black Africans in Darfur. They are going to be the ones "feeling" the wrath of the dictatorship in Khartoum.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14144 posts, RR: 62
Reply 7, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1064 times:



Quoting Petertenthije (Reply 5):
Angola

??? Angola is quite far away from Sudan ???

Jan


User currently offlinePetertenthije From Netherlands, joined Jul 2001, 3395 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1063 times:



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 7):
??? Angola is quite far away from Sudan ???

woops, don't know how that happened as i meant Uganda.



Attamottamotta!
User currently offlineBlackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1052 times:

Klaus,

Quote:
A military or terrorist attack on the Netherlands would invoke the collective NATO defense status with an appropriate response. Not something Sudan would be advised to provoke, chinese and russian backing or not. Neither would back them up that far.

While I suffer from OCD and anxiety-disorder (although it usually pertains to social-anxiety), I have never psychosomatically experienced symptoms resembling a heart-attack
(Sorry, I could not resist Big grin )

I usually just write that "you know who to blame thing" largely in a light hearted fashion. However if I ever did vanish, it would be nice somebody knew about it.

However, for the record, I don't have any health problems by the way. For most purposes, I'm in excellent physical condition, good blood-pressure (115/75), cholestrol (150 to 155) resting heart-rate (63 beats per minute), good reflexes, balance and coordination, and I'm more flexible than some dancers and gymnasts.


User currently offlineQANTAS077 From Australia, joined Jan 2004, 5870 posts, RR: 39
Reply 10, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1045 times:

only way the ICC will get taken out by Sudan is if the Sudanese send their Russian piloted MiL & Antonov's to do the job...and that ain't gonna happen! anyway, those guys are too busy blowing up shit in the south to fly 3500kms north.


a true friend is someone who sees the pain in your eyes, while everyone else believes the smile on your face.
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14144 posts, RR: 62
Reply 11, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1007 times:



Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 10):
only way the ICC will get taken out by Sudan is if the Sudanese send their Russian piloted MiL & Antonov's to do the job...and that ain't gonna happen! anyway, those guys are too busy blowing up shit in the south to fly 3500kms north.

Remember when the French peace keeping troops got attacked by the airforce of Ivory Coast a few years ago? Within two days, they sent in some Mirages and destroyed the whole Ivorian air force. They have air force based in Tchad and Djibouti.

Jan


User currently offlineWunalaYann From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2839 posts, RR: 25
Reply 12, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1003 times:



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 9):
However, for the record, I don't have any health problems by the way. For most purposes, I'm in excellent physical condition, good blood-pressure (115/75), cholestrol (150 to 155) resting heart-rate (63 beats per minute), good reflexes, balance and coordination, and I'm more flexible than some dancers and gymnasts.

Stats are worthless without pictures, I say.  biggrin  Please don't take offence, it's all in good humour...

Quoting Klaus (Reply 3):
A military or terrorist attack on the Netherlands would invoke the collective NATO defense status with an appropriate response. Not something Sudan would be advised to provoke, chinese and russian backing or not. Neither would back them up that far.

 checkmark 

Quoting Klaus (Reply 3):
Take it from a german: It could be a whole lot worse!

Oh what now? You lost in the final against Spain - big deal. We didn't even make it out of the group!!!  biggrin 


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21525 posts, RR: 53
Reply 13, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 985 times:



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 9):
While I suffer from OCD and anxiety-disorder (although it usually pertains to social-anxiety), I have never psychosomatically experienced symptoms resembling a heart-attack
(Sorry, I could not resist  )

Okay... that explains a few things... just try to keep it under control for our and your own sake, please...!

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 12):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 3):
Take it from a german: It could be a whole lot worse!

Oh what now? You lost in the final against Spain - big deal. We didn't even make it out of the group!!!

Hey — we're on an upward trend, at least: 3rd in the World Cup, 2nd in the Euro; The next major tournament should finally see us winning again!  cool 


User currently offlineWunalaYann From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2839 posts, RR: 25
Reply 14, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 978 times:



Quoting Klaus (Reply 13):
Hey — we're on an upward trend

Unlike us, I know...  Wink

Quoting Klaus (Reply 13):
The next major tournament should finally see us winning again!

You mean, the World-Cup-given-to-South-Africa-where-nobody-wants-to-go-and-Blatter-is-shitting-his-pants-with-plans-B-C-or-D?

That one?

 biggrin 


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21525 posts, RR: 53
Reply 15, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 969 times:



Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 14):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 13):
Hey — we're on an upward trend

Unlike us, I know...

Well, the only way to be really safe from that is if you've never been near the top in the first place, so I wouldn't fret too much.

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 14):
You mean, the World-Cup-given-to-South-Africa-where-nobody-wants-to-go-and-Blatter-is-shitting-his-pants-with-plans-B-C-or-D?

That one?

Yep. That one! Big grin


User currently offlineWunalaYann From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2839 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 957 times:



Quoting Klaus (Reply 15):
Well, the only way to be really safe from that is if you've never been near the top in the first place, so I wouldn't fret too much.

1984, 1998, 2000?  cloudnine 


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21525 posts, RR: 53
Reply 17, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 954 times:



Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 16):
1984, 1998, 2000?

Exactly!  Smile


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