MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 15814 posts, RR: 50 Posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2351 times:
"Sports economists have long argued that publicly financed stadiums are a waste of taxpayer money. And they have the data to prove it."
"Yes, stadiums do create high-paying construction jobs for a year or two. But the vast majority of long-term employment is low-wage concession jobs. A Congressional Research Service study of the Baltimore Ravens stadium found that each job created cost the state $127,000. By comparison, Maryland's Sunny Day Fund created jobs for about $6,000 each."
"But perhaps the best argument against publicly financed stadiums is straight out of Econ 101: Opportunity cost."
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 16941 posts, RR: 57 Reply 2, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2206 times:
I love how we build publicly funded stadiums in this country but refuse to build publicly-funded mass transit.
PIA777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1738 posts, RR: 7 Reply 3, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2201 times:
I dont think the tax payers should pay for new Stadiums especially since the comman man can't even afford to go see a game with the way ticket prices are these days. The average
fan is being pushed aside. New stadiums should be paid for by their owners.
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 16941 posts, RR: 57 Reply 4, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2198 times:
Quoting PIA777 (Reply 3): I dont think the tax payers should pay for new Stadiums especially since the comman man can't even afford to go see a game with the way ticket prices are these days. The average
fan is being pushed aside. New stadiums should be paid for by their owners.
Yup. People forget something:
Sports is ENTERTAINMENT. Nothing more. It is neither necessary nor that beneficial to our economy, security, health, or well-being.
Go ahead. Geek out on it. Go to every single game and even miss the birth of your own child to go to a game (yeah, a few of those guys exist). Be able to quote every play of every single game since 1946.
MCIGuy From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 1936 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2185 times:
Kansas City, MO's last mayor was a spending nutjob. We built a brand-new arena, the Sprint Center, in downtown, it was completed last fall. I attended the Van Halen reunion concert there two weeks after it opened and the facilty is nice, really nice, but our old arena was about the same size and we were making do nicely with it. They built it just on the hopes that an NBA or NHL team would come to KC but it ain't happenin' so far. Our orginal arena (Kemper) was built for the Kansas City (Sacramento) Kings and they moved ten years after it was built. Our NHL team, The Scouts, are now the New Jersey Devils. Whatever happened to learning the lessons of the past? The Sprint Center is mainly being paid for by a substantial hotel and rental car tax but I'm sure visitors don't appreciate that, especially when we didn't need it.
The same mayor luckily didn't get her way when she wanted to build a new baseball stadium downtown so Kansas City could control the Royals revenue instead of the county. Kaufmann Stadium is still a big, nice facility, even if the Royals do suck.
STLGph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8994 posts, RR: 27 Reply 6, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2150 times:
taxes paid on ...
people who travel into the town to see an event, or attend a convention, or anything related going on ... staying at a hotel and pay the city's luxury tax. then happen to also eat something. or buy something from a business.
taxes paid on ...
people paying to use the stadium for whatever the reason.
and most importantly ...
taxes paid by people who work those low end concession jobs.
it all adds up.
Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 5): Sprint Center, in downtown, it was completed last fall. I attended the Van Halen reunion concert there two weeks after it opened and the facilty is nice, really nice, but our old arena was about the same size and we were making do nicely with it
"we were making do nicely with it."
perhaps, but not so fast.
before the Sprint Center was built a majority of your concerts were playing Sandstone Amphitheater out in Bonner Springs.
a major of your big large arena shows weren't coming to town. now they are.
the Sprint Center has attracted a large number of big name concerts ... several exhibition sporting events, and convention business is up. ticket sales are beyond expectations. your big sporting team hasn't come ... and it wasn't expected right away ... as matter of fact, it's not even a priority of the first three year plan. right now the Sprint Center is working to prove itself as a valuable tool and asset to the downtown Kansas City economy and thus far it's working.
i love the Kemper Arena and saw many great concerts there, but it is pretty much a dive.
Eternal darkness we all should dread. It's hard to party when you're dead.
Connies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 3897 posts, RR: 13 Reply 7, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 2132 times:
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2): I love how we build publicly funded stadiums in this country but refuse to build publicly-funded mass transit.
if the gajillionaire owners of football or baseball or whatever teams want a new playpen, let them build it themselves. My home town of Winnipeg is mulling over a new football stadium near the downtown area. The proposal is 2/3 government money, 1/3 private, and the private investor gets the team (now owned by city like Green Bay). From my p.o.v. it's hard to make a business case for a $150-160M facility that's used only a limited number of times per year.
That said, the existing playpen is truly a dump. And 50+ years old.
LTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 12365 posts, RR: 12 Reply 8, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 2119 times:
This is one of my favorite subjects to rant about.
Here in the NY City area, Yankee stadium, Shea Stadium, Giants Stadium are all being replaced with new structures and Meadaowlands Arena (IZOD Center/Contential Airlines Arena) while being used by the NJ Nets for a few more years, there is the new Prudential Center in Newark that is basically replacing it. There is about $4 BILLION involved in these projects. Last year, the people of the City of NY said no to a new $2 Billion stadium project on the West side of Manhattan proposed to be a new home for the Jets NFL team. Some of the pressure to put in new stadiums is due to the 'jobs created' (mainly short term construction jobs), profits to rich construction companies owners, politicans wanting to attract people to downtown areas vs. suburbs. They forget the real feelings of taxpayers who just want lower taxes or at least the money spent on something they need like replacement of old schools and so on.
Most of these new Arenas/Stadiums are due to pressure from owners of the primary tenant teams who use extortion threats of moving out unless they get a new facility - one that must have more income to them rather than to the government owners. Most of that more income is usually from cramming in luxary boxes or requiring 'seat licenses' thus pricing out the facility to many sports fans. That means more ticket brokers/scalpers owning the seats and the boxes almost always owned by corporations to use the access to effectively bribe customers and politicans. That also means working class people no longer able to go to live games.
I think we must change the Federal tax laws to eliminate or substantually reduce the deductability of sports tickets and luxary box fees to end this madness.
Seb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9917 posts, RR: 17 Reply 9, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 2061 times:
Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 8): Most of these new Arenas/Stadiums are due to pressure from owners of the primary tenant teams who use extortion threats of moving out unless they get a new facility
The same thing happened in Seattle with the Seahawks and the Mariners. "Build us a new stadium or we leave." King County ended up raising sales tax and other taxes to pay for Safeco Field and Qwest Stadium. Those two buildings went up in a few years. Yet, light rail went way over budget and way behind schedule. They could have been building their third line by now, but the owners just had to have a new stadium for each sport. True, Kingdome was falling apart, but did the people of King County really need two new stadiums? How many people actually use the stadiums? I lived in Auburn and I never went to either stadium. A lot of people never use the stadiums but still have to pay for them through higher sales tax. It makes no sense to me.
In Portland, the only one that seemed to want a new baseball stadium is our former mayor, Vera Katz. Since she left office, the city has been focused on housing and transportation issues. Neither the Vikings, Timbers nor the Beavers have made much of a fuss about PGE Park. For its age, it is a nice stadium downtown AND it has two light rail stops served by two lines and (I think) four major bus lines.
SlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 71 Reply 12, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 2037 times:
And the King of them all - the "National" bowling stadium in Reno Nevada.
It was built on the taxpayers' backs and used ONCE.
Oh, sorry, twice.
The movie "Kingpin" with Bill Murray and Woody Harrelson was partly filmed there.
Locals cannot bowl there. No revenue recovery is permitted.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
STLGph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8994 posts, RR: 27 Reply 14, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 2014 times:
Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 7): my p.o.v. it's hard to make a business case for a $150-160M facility that's used only a limited number of times per year.
how many seats are you looking at?
your current stadium has 50,000 with "temporary seating."
on a rough estimate of use, it can pay for itself back in tax revenues in probably 9 to 11 years.
[Edited 2008-07-18 11:10:45]
Eternal darkness we all should dread. It's hard to party when you're dead.
STLGph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8994 posts, RR: 27 Reply 15, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 2010 times:
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 16941 posts, RR: 57 Reply 16, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 1990 times:
Quoting RJdxer (Reply 10): How much money does a publicly funded mass transit system lose?
Not nearly as much as a publicly-funded road system.
FlyDeltaJets87 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 17, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 1983 times:
And what about the other business that comes as a result of that new stadium? Tax revenue from income generated by the tickets and usage? Tax Revenue from the use of restaurants ad hotels from people who come from out of town to see the game? What about tax revenue generated from jobs of the people who work at that stadium?
On top of that, many sports arenas are used for more than just sports, especially indoor ones. Concerts, Conventions, other types of sporting events besides the primary use (such as boxing matches).
It's called an "investment". The city or state spends money now with the idea that they'll generate more revenue from it later.
N1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 25869 posts, RR: 79 Reply 18, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 1976 times:
You know what the really funny thing is about these "publically" funded stadiums is? Most of the money comes from exorbitant taxes on things like rental cars and hotel rooms that are generally paid by tourists and business people who are among the least likely to benefit from the stadiums. It is a modern version of taxation without representation.
My favorite stadium is still Dodger Stadium, which has its own shady history but was built completely with the Dodgers' money.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
57AZ From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2550 posts, RR: 2 Reply 19, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 1971 times:
Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 17): And what about the other business that comes as a result of that new stadium?
Not in Tucson, Arizona. We have Tucson Electric Park where the Tucson Sidewinders play and the Chicago White Sox have held Spring Training. The park is located in the wrong part of town-far away from any hotels and restaurants with NO public transit service of any sorts. The Tucson City Council pumps money into the stadium on an annual basis just to keep the lights on and attendance is VERY low (see aforementioned reasons). Non-sports related public events bring in a little money, but not enough to cover the costs of operation.
Same goes for Chattanooga, Tennessee's university new football stadium-built by the University of Tennessee at Chattanooga. The new stadium is located at least three miles from campus and has no public transit linking it to the campus. And people wondered why student attendance was so low? The stadium AFAIK has not hosted any significant non-sporting events to bring in revenue.
About the only events that bring money to Tucson are the annual Fourth Avenue Street Fairs, the Gem and Mineral Show and perhaps the HOG Rally. Chattanooga has some events that bring in the crowds-the main one being the two week long Riverbend festival that has gate attendance numbers in excess of one million attendees annually.
"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
StuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1785 posts, RR: 1 Reply 20, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 1964 times:
Quoting STLGph (Reply 14): it can pay for itself back in tax revenues in probably 9 to 11 years
Which is about the amount of time it takes before there will be demands from resident sports teams to build a new one. You really didn't address opportunity cost either.
In Seattle's case, after renovating Key arena to NBA's specifications in the 90's, they were told it would take a 500 Million dollar publicly funded arena this time around. Bye Sonics... or whatever you're called now.
MCIGuy From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 1936 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 1955 times:
Quoting STLGph (Reply 6): right now the Sprint Center is working to prove itself as a valuable tool and asset to the downtown Kansas City economy and thus far it's working
Quoting STLGph (Reply 6): i love the Kemper Arena and saw many great concerts there, but it is pretty much a dive.
Now this I can't argue with. I had a backstage pass to Van Halen in '04 and I was shocked at how it looked behind the scenes. There were huge rusticles hanging from pipes. Seems like that's just neglect though, and could be fixed. They could have done a remodel of Kemper and thrown in some carpeting and LCD screens and wham, the Sprint Center. The Foo Fighters are playing Kemper tomorrow night. Sprint Center rent too high?
Quoting STLGph (Reply 6): before the Sprint Center was built a majority of your concerts were playing Sandstone Amphitheater out in Bonner Springs.
That did seem to be the case for some reason, and Sandstone is just the worst IMO, I won't even bother with it anymore. There seems to be renewed interest in the Starlight Theater though. Rush just played there and there are a few big names lined up this summer.
PC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2263 posts, RR: 5 Reply 22, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 1941 times:
When the new Busch Stadium was going up in St. Louis, local media interviewed an old man who was against public funding for the new stadium. He made an excellent point with this statement. "They say it's a business right? Well, I don't see them granting public funding to build a new factory to anyone that asks for it. Why should we have to pay for something that some of us may never set foot in in the first place?"
What gripes me now is that the same people asking for the money could probably still pay the same amount multiple times.
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
Connies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 3897 posts, RR: 13 Reply 23, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 1941 times:
Quoting STLGph (Reply 14): Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 7):
my p.o.v. it's hard to make a business case for a $150-160M facility that's used only a limited number of times per year.
how many seats are you looking at?
your current stadium has 50,000 with "temporary seating."
on a rough estimate of use, it can pay for itself back in tax revenues in probably 9 to 11 years.
Winnipeg Stadium (actually rebranded as Canad Inn Stadium a couple years ago, local hotel chain) has ~29,900 permanent seats. For the Grey Cup in 1991 they took it up to about 52,000 with temps in both end zones, but there were issues regarding safety. So, when the Grey Cup was held in Winnipeg again in 1998 and 2006, seating was limited to about 46,000. The new stadium is projected as about a 35,000 seat facility.
Most CFL parks are around 30-35,000, with the exceptions being Montreal (Olympic) about 65,000, Edmonton (Commonwealth) ditto, Vancouver (BC Place) 58,000, and Toronto (ROgers Centre) about 45,000. But Rogers has a lot of seats with poor sightlines for football - it was built as a baseball park.
Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 17): And what about the other business that comes as a result of that new stadium? Tax revenue from income generated by the tickets and usage? Tax Revenue from the use of restaurants ad hotels from people who come from out of town to see the game? What about tax revenue generated from jobs of the people who work at that stadium?
On top of that, many sports arenas are used for more than just sports, especially indoor ones. Concerts, Conventions, other types of sporting events besides the primary use (such as boxing matches).
I realize that sports venues can be used for other purposes, esp. indoor ones as you point out. Winnipeg built a beautiful new indoor facility that opened in 2005, MTS Centre, right on the main drag downtown, and it has been a huge success. Was built along the lines of 2/3 public, 1/3 private money per football proposal. But the big difference is that the arena is operated by a public agency, not a private one, and profits roll directly back into public/private coffers per the cost-sharing formula used to build it (I believe).
Same idea used for the downtown baseball stadium (8,500 seats, AA indy ball team) that opened in 2001.
N1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 25869 posts, RR: 79 Reply 24, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 1930 times:
Quoting RJdxer (Reply 10):
How much money does a publicly funded mass transit system lose?
How much money does a publicly funded road lose? 100% of investment. How much money does a publicly funded mass transit system save the tax payers? Billions.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
25 FlyDeltaJets87: Oh really? How long was Yankee Stadium in use....since 1923. Yes, it was renovated in the 1970s even the renovation was used for almost 30 years. And
26 Alias1024: Well get ready, because the proposal to get the Beavers a new stadium and renovate PGE Park will probably be out by the end of the month. Getting the
27 SlamClick: Well that certainly ignores a lot of tax revenues that would not be collected if there were no roads including every last dime of gasoline taxes. Hav
28 N1120A: Actually, I agree with you and don't have a problem with funding road construction, and I think tolling roads for passenger cars is ridiculous. That
29 AirCop: How did you forget the Diamondbacks having spring training at TEP? I seen buses stop at the park during games..but then again Hi Corbett is a dump. C
31 AirCop: A profit for the taxpayers that funded them, not a profit for the team owners. Take a football stadium for an NFL team. How many days a year is the f
32 N1120A: It really depends. Further, like I said before, the taxpayers that funded the stadiums are often those who never get any benefit from them. Depends.
33 DocLightning: And you are ignoring the sort of tax revenues that are gained by improving transport and commerce when you have good mass transit, too. I would submi
34 PPVRA: Instead of ''New Money for New Projects,'' most of the money has been spent on routine operations. Hundreds of millions of new dollars were reallocat
35 STLGph: talk to the people at AEG, and then go look at their initial business plan. Sprint Center is only failing to this person because there isn't an event
36 Aa757first: That's along the lines I was thinking. It seems very incomplete to base this study just on jobs created and not the contribution made to the local ec
37 STLGph: mm-hmm most of the time the part timers that work at arenas have other jobs and means of employment. joe blow goes to work mon-fri at his "main job."
38 Dc-9-10: Qwest Center Omaha is one facility that comes to mind, they do events very well, consistently sell out concerts, and best of all no pro teams that tr
39 57AZ: Actually, much of the money that funded that stadium was private money. Without the donations from the stadium's namesake, it would not have been bui
40 Slider: I cannot abide hearing this. The Dude would not be happy. Great point—it’s really cranked up the fees on those things and has eliminated the tran
41 N1120A: That any NFL owner demands public financing is insane given how each team is instantly profitable just based on the TV revenues.
42 Slider: You’re right! AND, when you look at the revenue sharing system, smaller market or lower revenue franchises are on the same footing…it’s a wondr
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if the gajillionaire owners of football or baseball or whatever teams want a new playpen, let them build it themselves. My home town of Winnipeg is mulling over a new football stadium near the downtown area. The proposal is 2/3 government money, 1/3 private, and the private investor gets the team (now owned by city like Green Bay). From my p.o.v. it's hard to make a business case for a $150-160M facility that's used only a limited number of times per year. 
The city or state spends money now with the idea that they'll generate more revenue from it later. 
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