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Bush: Largest Ever Tax Increase On Rich  
User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2212 times:

The IRS released the 2006 data and it demonstrates that the 2003 Bush tax "cuts" created the largest ever tax increase on the rich.

The data shows that the top 1% paid 40% of all federal income taxes, the "highest share in at least 40 years." The top 1% earned 22% of all reported income yet paid almost double their share in taxes.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1216...d=opinion_main_review_and_outlooks

The bottom 50% of US taxpayers paid less than 3% of all federal taxes.

No President has ever taken more taxes from the rich than GWB. This dramatic increase in taxes resulted in a reduction the federal deficit from 3.5% of GDP in 2003 to 1.9% in 2006.

The CBO wrongly had predicted that these tax cuts would result in a $1 Trillion decrease in revenue.

Someone please tell me when the rich have paid their fair share of taxes because it seems that they're doing more than enough now.

77 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAirStairs From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 487 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2208 times:

One is too many, and a thousand not enough. They will continue to demand more. Where is John Galt?

User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2205 times:



Quoting Pope (Thread starter):
Someone please tell me when the rich have paid their fair share of taxes because it seems that they're doing more than enough now.

I'm glad the wealthy have such a steadfast advocate, like yourself.. It must be nice for them to know they have someone, like yourself, who they can cry to, to protest how unfair life is to them.  Yeah sure


User currently offlineConfuscius From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 3870 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2196 times:



Quoting Pope (Thread starter):

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1216...looks

Banner says: A Daily Political Newsletter from WSJ.com's Opinion Editors

(Rupert Murdoch Publication)

Bottom of web page says:

See all of today's editorials and op-eds, plus video commentary, on Opinion Journal.



Ain't I a stinker?
User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2197 times:



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 2):
I'm glad the wealthy have such a steadfast advocate, like yourself.. It must be nice for them to know they have someone, like yourself, who they can cry to, to protest how unfair life is to them.  

Fantastic response. Make the issue about me and ignore the facts. Oh yeah and once again, when give the opportunity to answer the question, you chose to avoid the matter.

Perfect.


User currently onlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8226 posts, RR: 26
Reply 5, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2185 times:



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 2):
It must be nice for them to know they have someone, like yourself, who they can cry to, to protest how unfair life is to them.

What does an "unfair life" have to do with an unfair proportion of tax? And where in the quoted article or elsewhere did any wealthy person complain about how "unfair" their lives are? I've never heard any such thing.

I'm the last person to defend wealthy people when they're in the wrong, because they should never be, but on a matter like this, what's with the vitriol?



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2183 times:



Quoting Confuscius (Reply 3):
(Rupert Murdoch Publication)

I guess George Soros is the only one who can offer an opinion that liberals will accept. While the piece may be an op-ed, the data cited can be accessed from the IRS's website. But again, why debate the data when it's so damning. Attack the source. Are you saying that the data isn't correct or you don't like where it's coming from?


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26718 posts, RR: 75
Reply 7, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2171 times:



Quoting Pope (Reply 6):

I guess George Soros is the only one who can offer an opinion that liberals will accept.

I'll listen to Warren Buffett any day of the week.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2170 times:



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 5):
What does an "unfair life" have to do with an unfair proportion of tax?

I was being sarcastic. If you're that wealthy, much in life isn't unfair. I was just chiding Pope for being such an advocate of the rich.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 7):
Quoting Pope (Reply 6):

I guess George Soros is the only one who can offer an opinion that liberals will accept.

I'll listen to Warren Buffett any day of the week.

Agreed. I'd listen to him over Soros, who is just a blowhard.


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26718 posts, RR: 75
Reply 9, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2162 times:



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):

Agreed. I'd listen to him over Soros, who is just a blowhard.

Soros is no blowhard. That man knows what to do with and how to make money.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2160 times:



Quoting N1120A (Reply 9):
Soros is no blowhard. That man knows what to do with and how to make money.

Maybe he does, but I still see him as a blowhard.


User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2160 times:



Quoting N1120A (Reply 7):
I'll listen to Warren Buffett any day of the week.

Has Warren Buffet disputed this data?

From what I've seen Buffet has made statements regarding the mega-rich (himself, Bill Gates, a couple hedge fund managers - maybe those who represent the top 0.001% of earners). But the article clearly points out that the top 1% starts at $386,000. Nobody can argue that these people are in the same situation as those who measure income in the hundreds of million of dollar.

While these mega-rich really don't care how much tax they pay because it make no difference to their lifestyle. Someone who earns a hundred million plus may not really see the difference of paying an extra $2 or $3M in tax. But someone who earns $400,000 sees a difference with a $12,000 difference in their after tax income. But in either case, it can't be said that the rich as a group don't pay their fair share of income - which is exactly what liberals like Obama like to argue.


User currently offlineQANTAS077 From Australia, joined Jan 2004, 5861 posts, RR: 39
Reply 12, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2154 times:



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 2):
I'm glad the wealthy have such a steadfast advocate, like yourself.. It must be nice for them to know they have someone, like yourself, who they can cry to, to protest how unfair life is to them.

who you should be critical of is the wealthy that seek to avoid paying tax by hiding their squillions in offshore bank accounts.



a true friend is someone who sees the pain in your eyes, while everyone else believes the smile on your face.
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13704 posts, RR: 61
Reply 13, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2147 times:
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Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 2):


Quoting Pope (Thread starter):
Someone please tell me when the rich have paid their fair share of taxes because it seems that they're doing more than enough now.

I'm glad the wealthy have such a steadfast advocate, like yourself.. It must be nice for them to know they have someone, like yourself, who they can cry to, to protest how unfair life is to them.

Why is it that "the rich" can never pay too much? I don't understand why there's always such a "Yeah - stick it to 'em!" mentality among the Democratic base.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2145 times:



Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 12):
who you should be critical of is the wealthy that seek to avoid paying tax by hiding their squillions in offshore bank accounts.

Oh, trust me, I am. Many get their millions off the hard work of others, then hide their money in offshore accounts, and give nothng back at all to this nation. They're just siphons, imho, who care only about themselves.


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2139 times:



Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 13):
Why is it that "the rich" can never pay too much?

Perhaps it's because the richest can often afford lawyers who find every loophole, and every offshore hiding place for them, so that many of them don't pay anywhere near what they could on a normal tax rate?

One advantage of being filthy rich is you can afford such help, and many do. You know it and I know it.


User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2137 times:



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 14):
They're just siphons, imho, who care only about themselves.

As alway, you let him speak long enough and he'll demonstrate his hypocrisy. One minute you're arguing against the conservatives imposing their morality on others, and here you are imposing a morality of care on the rich. I love it. You're so predictable.


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2131 times:



Quoting Pope (Reply 16):
As alway, you let him speak long enough and he'll demonstrate his hypocrisy. One minute you're arguing against the conservatives imposing their morality on others, and here you are imposing a morality of care on the rich. I love it. You're so predictable.

Ah, so you have no problem with the rich not paying their fair share by finding every loophole, or putting their money in offshore accounts?

Again, I'm glad the rich have such a strong advocate. They really need one like you, to look out for them.

I don't see how I'm imposing morality on anyone, dude. I can't impose what I thnk about that, and change how it works, can I? But, I guess when it comes to my opinions, you thnk I'm not allowed to have them. I'll remember that.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21801 posts, RR: 55
Reply 18, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2119 times:



Quoting Pope (Thread starter):
The IRS released the 2006 data and it demonstrates that the 2003 Bush tax "cuts" created the largest ever tax increase on the rich.

I wouldn't call that a tax increase on the rich. As far as I know, the rich are paying less tax per person/household under Bush than Clinton. It's more of a statement of how the wide the gap between rich and poor has grown that the rich as a whole pay so much more in taxes than the poor as a whole.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13704 posts, RR: 61
Reply 19, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2114 times:
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Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 15):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 13):
Why is it that "the rich" can never pay too much?

Perhaps it's because the richest can often afford lawyers who find every loophole, and every offshore hiding place for them, so that many of them don't pay anywhere near what they could on a normal tax rate?

One advantage of being filthy rich is you can afford such help, and many do. You know it and I know it.

Certainly, but even then, the rich - after taking advantage of loophole after loophole - still pay WAY more as a percentage of income than you or I ever will.

So how is that right?



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineQANTAS077 From Australia, joined Jan 2004, 5861 posts, RR: 39
Reply 20, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2106 times:

Quoting Pope (Reply 16):
and here you are imposing a morality of care on the rich.

the law is the law, its quite clear that many wealthy individuals go to great lengths when it comes to avoiding tax payment, just ask UBS and the commission that is now investigating clients & their schemes to hide money.

seems you have a disregard for the law?! I note that Australian businessman and owner of Westfield shopping centres is also caught up in this, ripping off yours & the Australian taxman to the tune of around $70 million.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 19):
Certainly, but even then, the rich - after taking advantage of loophole after loophole - still pay WAY more as a percentage of income than you or I ever will.

So how is that right?

so how is it right that they can setup numbered accounts in Switzerland and Lichtenstein and avoid their tax liability altogether?

[Edited 2008-07-21 18:58:30]


a true friend is someone who sees the pain in your eyes, while everyone else believes the smile on your face.
User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9263 posts, RR: 21
Reply 21, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2107 times:



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 15):
Perhaps it's because the richest can often afford lawyers who find every loophole, and every offshore hiding place for them, so that many of them don't pay anywhere near what they could on a normal tax rate?

That's why I'm not that big of a fan of the filthy rich. Okay, so they know how to make money, fine. But, then, they want to make $10 million into $100 million and so on and so forth, and they'll find any way possible to keep from paying taxes and what have you. It seems to me that half of them don't even donate to charities.

Look at Bill Gates. Sure, he found out ways of making himself into a mega billionaire. What did he do? He gave, IIRC, a THIRD of his worth to several charities over in Africa. Sure, there are tax breaks for those who give to charities I believe, but this guy didn't just do that for the sake of tax breaks. He and his wife then went to Africa to see how his donations were being used and how things were progressing. I am sure there are some others who follow by this example, but not that many IMO.

Ok, so there isn't anything wrong with making yourself into a very wealthy figure. I just don't like the fellows who basically fall in love with the idea of making money. My grandmother always said that the love of money is the route of all evil -- true words, IMO.

Mr Falcon84, I do agree with you to a degree about how the rich should pay their fair share of taes, because many of them, as you say, do not. Those, for the most part, seem to be those who have pretty much fallen in love with money. I am sure that many of they probably even split with their wives because they're in it for money and could probably get someone else for a "trophy wife."

To everyone else, yes, I may be a democrat, but refuse to label myself as a "bleeding-heart liberal." I do not really believe in a redistribution of the wealth. People have made their millions, and kudos to them. I do not have any respect for anyone who deliberately hides money to get out of paying taxes, just so they can continuously replicate their green and replicate their green...



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8709 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2092 times:

The rich pay a ridiculously low tax rate. The upper middle class pays much higher rates, and it sucks. (greater than 40% for some people, of their gross income). Meanwhile, the "rich" investor class pays 15% on capital gains, typically deferred below 15%. Hello? Only suckers have a job. This economy penalizes actually working. It rewards being an aristocrat, with no job who collects dividends.


Bush cut taxes on the rich low enough that they actually __stopped dodging__ capital gains taxes as much, which made tax revenues shoot up. Thus, since the rich have so incredibly much money, they paid an increased amount of money in taxes even though their effective tax rates have FALLEN for years.

Overall, this has been a good thing. Freer capital flows have enhanced our entire economy. The rich got richer on that. So did the entire country. Meanwhile, the tax cut on the rich resulted in higher revenue. It's the Laffer curve for real this time. The only problem is fairness.


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8709 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2087 times:



Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 21):
Look at Bill Gates.

For a guy with $64 billion, Bill Gates has paid an __extremely__ small amount in taxes to the US Government during his lifetime.

He pays a higher AMOUNT than most people, but pays a lower RATE than anybody except the lower middle class, as well. It is hard to justify why Gates, who has paid maybe $1 billion in taxes in his lifetime, should retain $60 Billion in wealth while upper middle class people, pay much greater shares of their lifetime wealth in taxes. This is because our government punishes those who work hard. It also rewards the middle class, the lower class and people just getting by. Quite simply, there is almost no reason for someone earning $100,000 to try to earn $200,000. You get almost none of that money and your quality of life suffers.


User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9263 posts, RR: 21
Reply 24, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2081 times:



Quoting Flighty (Reply 23):
Quite simply, there is almost no reason for someone earning $100,000 to try to earn $200,000. You get almost none of that money and your quality of life suffers.

Amen



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
25 Post contains links Tugger : There isn't any "their share" involved. Different income groups pay taxes based on their ability to pay and live a life that is by any definition is
26 RJdxer : So you just take whatever figure comes up after you figure out you adjusted gross income right? You don't look to add the mortgage interest deduction
27 Falcon84 : I do want to ask Pope and RJdxer something: why do you give a shit what the government taxes the rich for anyway? Are you filthy rich, either one of y
28 AirStairs : Uh... that capital gains tax is the nice fat cherry on top of the income tax that the IRS collects regardless. The interest in my savings account is
29 Post contains links Flighty : Which equals zero, if you have zero wages. The really rich individuals I know don't make wages, because why would they need a job... they are rich. O
30 JCS17 : Oh Falcon, Lord of the Working Class, please impart more of your class envy onto those reading these message boards. Actually, I'm just kidding, kind
31 EA CO AS : He doesn't "have" $64 billion though - that's just what his holdings (mostly stock) would be worth if he sold it. Which he hasn't. Again, he has that
32 Falcon84 : You're comparing minorities and women to the rich? That's rich. Minorities and women HAVE been treated unfairly throughout history. The rich haven't.
33 Falcon84 : If that's what you think, Jcs, then you've got a few screws loose. But I'm not surprised by that. Oh, and when you get up that corporate ladder, reme
34 AirStairs : Most high net-worth individuals, including ones who inherit, have their money managed professionally, generally in a mixture of the equities, mutual
35 EA CO AS : You know I respect the hell out of you, but honestly - who are you to decide what level of unfair treatment is acceptable? Unfair treatment is unfair
36 TUNisia : It's a shame more people aren't/weren't tuned into municipal bonds.
37 Super80DFW : What about the idea of a "Fair Income Tax"? (Hypothetical) There is a Fair Income Tax of 20% from income levels. (Quoting Reply 25) The households mak
38 RJdxer : And you act like they've done something wrong or that they don't deserve their lot in life. Class envy is such a sorry way to live your life. The poi
39 AirStairs : Which can be kind of a trade off with lower yields, but with obvious tax and rating advantages. But the muni auction-rate issuers are getting bent ov
40 JCS17 : Why would I care about my owner? After all, he started off as a salesman in another industry. He worked his way to the top, and I respect him for it
41 AirStairs : Good luck; my dad started this process about four years ago when he branched out from medicine into medical technology. I don't know whether or not y
42 Flighty : True, paper wealth, but very real... Gates owns the bricks, mortar and trademarks of Microsoft.... it's not mere promissory notes. He owns real stuff
43 AirStairs : I am a little surprised that you are telling me what "they" do or how much standard income "they" have because I both use a money manager and work fo
44 Flighty : ?? Then how do you live? Do you have a job? ...... Haha... silly in what way? It's called living off your wealth.... indeed
45 MD-90 : Envy is an ugly thing when it consumes somebody.
46 QANTAS077 : nothing envious about tax cheats or law breakers, if people want to live/work/operate in a country then pay the fucking taxes as mandated by the laws
47 Pope : I'm not filthy rich but by the Democrat's definition I am rich. Remember that's anyone with an AGI above $75,000. But truth be told, I've made much m
48 Falcon84 : I hold nothing envious for those who make it big in this country, then, out of greed, avoid every possible way to avoid paying a fair share back in t
49 Pope : That's not a presumption. The DNC has repeatedly supported policies and tax regimes that establish $75,000 as "rich". So is the arrogance mine or tha
50 RJdxer : Profiling a little there aren't we? "rich people"? Not "some" or even a "few" rich people? Why shouldn't they take advantage of any legal loophole to
51 Aaron747 : It's amazing how different people react to the same situations. I don't know what Falcon's deal is, but I worked for a law-firm part time throughout
52 Seb146 : Sure, they PAID less than 3%, but how much did they get back? The poor helpless rich people of this country PAY in taxes, but how much to they claim
53 RJdxer : If you are poor, more excuse to get out and become "not poor". If you consider yourself helpless then no amount of money is going to help you since y
54 AirStairs : "Living off your wealth" would generally constitute some interest income, dividends, and fixed income. I am not too familiar with people making big c
55 Falcon84 : Someone doesn't have to agree with their party on everything, Pope. There are some conservatives and liberals who disagree with that, but it is the t
56 Pope : Yet, you support the candidate who wants to raise them.
57 Falcon84 : So? I'm not a one-issue voter, Pope. And I doubt ou are, too. Anyone who is is a damned fool. I support him. Doesn't have to mean I agree with everyt
58 DL021 : People define "rich" as alot of things that aren't. I opened my business 6 years ago with money that was coming available due to the tax cuts. We have
59 MD-90 : If God Himself only requires 10%, why should any state demand more than that? And why shouldn't it be 10% for everybody?
60 NorthstarBoy : i think the disparity lies in "income" vs "Net Worth" the average middle class american making 100k a year has to report that as income, therefore, he
61 Pope : First of all we already have the mother of all net worth taxes - it's called the estate tax which takes up to 55% of everything you own at death. Sec
62 Seb146 : But when a liberal supporter posts facts from moveon.org or New York Times, the liberal has to find other sources because they are just not good enou
63 RJdxer : I've lost count of the times I've had to go and research things that posters both liberal and conservative have put up because they are so vague or e
64 Post contains links Pope : First of all, I doubt there is anyone who has billions of dollars in the bank. That's simply poor cash management. Second, as people learned during E
65 AirStairs : Buffett's kids are getting virtually nothing of his fortune, only enough to fund as much education as they care to pursue. Both he and they have gone
66 Falcon84 : Oh, boo hoo. Most of the people who worked for Enron and Bear Stearns, or invested in them, lost their jobs or all their money tied up-or both, in so
67 Pope : With the exception of company contributions to their 401k plans there wasn't a single share of stock in either Enron or Bear Stearns that any employe
68 Flighty : For his part, Warren Buffet is a believer in the so-called "death tax." He believes dynastic wealth is un-American, and like you say, he does not pla
69 AirStairs : And he is being smart to do this by a) minimizing his tax liabilities and b) donating privately. To think that the government would or could make any
70 Baroque : A bit of a Low(y) blow Qantas?
71 Flybyguy : Quite right. It's actually a big curse to be in that bracket because if you don't own a home, standard deductions mean nothing. I don't make nearly t
72 Baroque : I should know better than to get in between Americans and their money or more exactly their ideas of taxes but here goes. Couple of suggestions for ta
73 Seb146 : I am saying WSJ is not much of a reliable source as it once was. Besides... if the "average person" can invest in a non-taxable 401(k), why can't the
74 Pope : Because of the the limitation of Section 401 - 415 of the US Internal Revenue Code. You might want to read them. Based on what? Your own prejudice on
75 Seb146 : But, since the rich have the money, they can put money in offshore accounts instead of trusting investors will put money into good stocks. So, tell m
76 Pope : So it's really your own person prejudice. You can't cite a single news story published in the WSJ since the takeover that has been discredited in who
77 RJdxer : This from the man who by all accounts in another thread would make a pretty fair sub prime mortgage lender.
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