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Abortion As An Election Issue  
User currently offlineJCS17 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 8065 posts, RR: 38
Posted (6 years 2 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2098 times:

I was watching some news channel this evening and they were doing interviews on the street about what people's number one issues are going into the election. The first ten people said something along the lines of the economy, or gas prices, or Iraq, and/or The War on Terror. Then it came to some early-20s, self-righteous woman (I would prefer to use more colorful language to describe her), and her answer was "the right for an abortion."

I don't think I've ever been that annoyed in a year.

You might know me as being very conservative on these boards, but when it comes to abortion, I can see both sides of the argument. I could truthfully care less, except in mid or late-term and partial-birth situations, where abortion is particularly barbaric. Birth control doesn't bother me, I'm a big fan of it... Anyway...

Going back to my highly annoyed state, I thought about that woman's statement. She is trying to say that having her fetus' brains sucked out by a vacuum is some sort of founding right, first of all. Secondly, it's the most important thing in the US? How narrow-minded a (insert creative words for a woman here) are you really? Does she actually feel that the right to abortion should be something that is celebrated and kept in the public mind!? What a selfish, sorry, and disgusting woman.

I'm sorry for ranting, but this actually really pissed me off.


America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
63 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAirStairs From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 487 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 2 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2087 times:



Quoting JCS17 (Thread starter):
what people's number one issues are going into the election...her answer was "the right for an abortion."

Lucky for her there ain't much fightin' left to do, she can waltz into her neighborhood's Planned Parenthood for a full suite of abortion options.

Why this is a government issue and not completely governed by the AMA I do not understand in the first place. Yes, I mean, theoretically, while the fetus is inside her she can do what she will, but the existence of common sense is something I have not learned to count on and so would probably not trust her to take care of it in a timely and quasi-humane manner.


User currently offlineJpetekYXMD80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4389 posts, RR: 29
Reply 2, posted (6 years 2 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2082 times:



Quoting JCS17 (Thread starter):
Secondly, it's the most important thing in the US? How narrow-minded a (insert creative words for a woman here) are you really? Does she actually feel that the right to abortion should be something that is celebrated and kept in the public mind!? What a selfish, sorry, and disgusting woman.

I'm sorry for ranting, but this actually really pissed me off.

It pisses me off as well to see abortion remain as a top of the docket issue in the minds of many. Regardless of my thoughts on it, its been 35 years....stare decisis!

However, I am positive you will find more conservatives put priority on the abortion issue, which I suppose is natural, since they would be on the 'losing' end of Roe v. Wade..



The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlineQXatFAT From Israel, joined Feb 2006, 2404 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (6 years 2 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2059 times:

The abortion issue will be on my California ballot this year as a proposition.

As for me...I am voting against abortion.



Don't Tread On Me!
User currently offlineJpetekYXMD80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4389 posts, RR: 29
Reply 4, posted (6 years 2 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2055 times:



Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 3):
The abortion issue will be on my California ballot this year as a proposition.

As for me...I am voting against abortion.

You're not 'voting against abortion'. That is a huge oversimplification of what is actually going on.

Proposition 4, if approved, would not allow an abortion within 48 hours of parental notification in the case of a minor. This will be it's 3rd appearance on the California ballot.



The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6485 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (6 years 2 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2020 times:

The abortion issue really grates my nerves. I don't actually care what people do (unless it is my baby or my baby's baby), but people waste far too much time and energy on this when there are more pressing issues. It's just like gay marriage...I am in general supportive of the concept, but really, getting all bent out of shape over it (especially the anti- folks) when there are bigger fish to fry...

This is why the aliens that rule the universe have not gotten in touch with us yet. Until we get our shit straight and keep worrying about pedantic crap, they'll want nothing to do with us.



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineDvk From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1058 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (6 years 2 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2020 times:

Why should this woman's single issue voting offend you any more than the very large group of conservatives who still vote based on that single issue? Voting for the "pro-life" candidate is still the overriding concern of a large bloc of voters, particularly conservative Catholics and other conservative Christians. For many of them, nothing else matters. How are they different from the women who annoyed you, except for being on the other side of the issue?


I'm not dumb. I just have a command of thoroughly useless information.
User currently offlineHuskyAviation From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1152 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (6 years 2 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1983 times:



Quoting JCS17 (Thread starter):
Then it came to some early-20s, self-righteous woman (I would prefer to use more colorful language to describe her), and her answer was "the right for an abortion."

As if this issue affects her daily life more than the economy, war, terrorism, etc. etc. Seriously, how many times does this chick expect to get herself knocked up?

Sounds like she's just an extremely cheap slut to me...


User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12568 posts, RR: 46
Reply 8, posted (6 years 2 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1976 times:
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Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 7):
As if this issue affects her daily life more than the economy, war, terrorism

Two of those three could easily be absent from her daily life.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineHuskyAviation From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1152 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (6 years 2 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1970 times:



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 8):
Two of those three could easily be absent from her daily life.

Well you could parse it much more finely then--gas prices, taxes, healthcare, housing market, inflation, stock market, environment, job market, etc. etc.

I think you have to be a little off if abortion is the first thing that comes to mind when you think of an important issue that affects your life consistently.

Unless you're a slut.


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 2 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1970 times:



Quoting JCS17 (Thread starter):
I don't think I've ever been that annoyed in a year.

Seeing as you seem to be annoyed on here all the time, that's some feet!  Big grin

Quoting JCS17 (Thread starter):
You might know me as being very conservative on these boards

No!! Never even entered my mind!!  Big grin

As for the lady, it's a free country, she can think whatever she wants. We are free to annoy people in the U.S. But, before you go ballistic, Jcs, I think had I seen it, I would have probably reacted somewhat the same way-what with all the problems facing this nation, this lady is concerned only for herself, it seems.


User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6816 posts, RR: 34
Reply 11, posted (6 years 2 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1960 times:



Quoting AirStairs (Reply 1):
, I mean, theoretically, while the fetus is inside her she can do what she will,

Well, that's where the argument begins. Because that's nothing theoretical to many.

Quoting JpetekYXMD80 (Reply 2):
Regardless of my thoughts on it, its been 35 years....stare decisis!

But Roe V Wade didn't effectively answer the abortion question.


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26499 posts, RR: 75
Reply 12, posted (6 years 2 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1956 times:



Quoting JpetekYXMD80 (Reply 4):

Proposition 4, if approved, would not allow an abortion within 48 hours of parental notification in the case of a minor. This will be it's 3rd appearance on the California ballot.

And likely lose again.

Quoting Slider (Reply 11):

But Roe V Wade didn't effectively answer the abortion question.

Casey did.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineHuskyAviation From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1152 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (6 years 2 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1944 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 12):
Casey did.

Actually, not really, and I don't think a lot of people feel particularly comfortable with the "undue burden" test or the "mystery of human life" crap that O'Connor talked about in that opinion.

[Edited 2008-07-22 13:42:59]

User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19724 posts, RR: 58
Reply 14, posted (6 years 2 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1934 times:



Quoting AirStairs (Reply 1):
Why this is a government issue and not completely governed by the AMA I do not understand in the first place. Yes, I mean, theoretically, while the fetus is inside her she can do what she will, but the existence of common sense is something I have not learned to count on and so would probably not trust her to take care of it in a timely and quasi-humane manner.

Because Americans love for their government to dictate morality and behavior while providing absolutely no useful services such as transit, healthcare, or oversight of corporate activities.


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26499 posts, RR: 75
Reply 15, posted (6 years 2 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 1920 times:



Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 13):
and I don't think a lot of people feel particularly comfortable with the "undue burden" test or the "mystery of human life" crap that O'Connor talked about in that opinion.

I'm not a fan of the undue burden test either. That said, the precedent as well as the general consensus is in favor of preserving a woman's right to control her body.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6816 posts, RR: 34
Reply 16, posted (6 years 2 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 1919 times:



Quoting N1120A (Reply 15):
That said, the precedent as well as the general consensus is in favor of preserving a woman's right to control her body.

Actaully, the much longer and nearly eternal precedent is to protect human life.

Abortion as a means of brith control and convenience is a purely modern and Western construct.


User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6485 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (6 years 2 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 1906 times:

Isn't it ironic that people who are pro-life are often anti-death penalty? Conversely, the opposite is often true as well.


When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26499 posts, RR: 75
Reply 18, posted (6 years 2 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 1901 times:



Quoting Slider (Reply 16):


Abortion as a means of brith control and convenience is a purely modern and Western construct.

Riiiight. That is why abortions have existed since before any semblance of modernity existed.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (6 years 2 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 1898 times:



Quoting N328KF (Reply 17):
Isn't it ironic that people who are pro-life are often anti-death penalty?

Actually, it's usually the other way around. Those who are pro-abortion are often against the death penalty, and those who are anti-abortion are more often than not, strong proponents of the death penalty.

I'm against abortion in most cases, and I'm against the death penalty in most cases.


User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (6 years 2 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1890 times:

While in an ideal world my hope would be that abortion wouldn't exist. But we don't live in an ideal world. Notwithstanding my personal belief that abortion is the killing of a human life, I guess my political position is that abortion should be as Bill Clinton put it: "safe, legal and rare"

That being said, I think that the abortion issue is generally misunderstood by most of the electorate. Ultimately the issue requires a subjective determination of whether a state's interest in protecting unborn life is greater than a woman's interest in her own body. If Roe were overturned, it wouldn't make abortion illegal anywhere. The states, and therefore ultimately the people, would have to pass legislation outlawing the practice within their jurisdiction.


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (6 years 2 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1886 times:



Quoting Pope (Reply 20):
I guess my political position is that abortion should be as Bill Clinton put it: "safe, legal and rare"

Reading that almost gives me a stroke, Pope.  Big grin But I do agree with you.


User currently offlineAirStairs From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 487 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 2 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1878 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
Because Americans love for their government to dictate morality and behavior while providing absolutely no useful services such as transit, healthcare, or oversight of corporate activities.

The government is incapable of providing almost any social service in a productive, efficient, or helpful way and should not attempt it beyond basic infrastructure and a very few others.

Quoting Pope (Reply 20):
Ultimately the issue requires a subjective determination of whether a state's interest in protecting unborn life is greater than a woman's interest in her own body.

This is the determination that I am uncomfortable with the state making. I don't like abortion or the idea of it at all; it is wrought with ethical issues, but the way I see it as a matter of law, as long as something is literally inside your being, don't (or shouldn't) you have complete liberty and jurisdiction over it unless subpoenaed (ie blood, DNA, paternity tests)? It seems that crossing that line would only lead to smoking and drinking bans during pregnancy, etc.


User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (6 years 2 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1877 times:



Quoting AirStairs (Reply 22):
This is the determination that I am uncomfortable with the state making. I don't like abortion or the idea of it at all; it is wrought with ethical issues, but the way I see it as a matter of law, as long as something is literally inside your being, don't (or shouldn't) you have complete liberty and jurisdiction over it unless subpoenaed (ie blood, DNA, paternity tests)? It seems that crossing that line would only lead to smoking and drinking bans during pregnancy, etc.

So you support 3rd trimesters abortion without any restriction. Your position would literally allow a woman on her way to the delivery room to stop on a whim and drive to an abortion clinic. Is that really what you advocate?


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26499 posts, RR: 75
Reply 24, posted (6 years 2 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1875 times:



Quoting Pope (Reply 20):
I guess my political position is that abortion should be as Bill Clinton put it: "safe, legal and rare"

I too, completely agree with that



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
25 AirStairs : Yes, in THEORY, the scenario you described would fit my definition of what the government's role should and should not be, although even then, it is
26 SlamClick : Wish it was the only issue. Then I could just vote Democratic and not even think about it. Of course there actually are other issues, most of them far
27 Pope : It seems to me that your argument ignores the fact that an unborn baby is alive. Therefore, the state has just as much of an interest in protecting t
28 N1120A : Well, depends on how you look at it. I think all health care should be government funded, which includes abortions.
29 SlamClick : Which is why I part company with most liberals. I do not believe that it shoud and would prefer to die from the next major disease to find me than to
30 SlamClick : How about liposuction, boob jobs, nose jobs, botox, viagra etc. etc. If you think the taxpayers should pay for those for whoever wants them I don't w
31 AirStairs : To me it is still not an issue of when "life" may begin: I know that fetuses are alive, but do not see theoretically how any choice involving the int
32 Pope : If you admit the fetus is alive how is it not entitled to protection under our Constitution?
33 N1120A : There is a big difference between an abortion and plastic surgery. I'm really not getting that. Perhaps if you rephrase.
34 Flighty : Certainly, for many Christian soldier types, it is the most important thing in the US, yes. This woman was merely responding to a monumental effort b
35 AirStairs : Because I place a higher value on the individual's right to govern the inner workings of his or her body more than the state's ability to intervene.
36 Pope : I certainly respect your right to that opinion. But under our constitutional framework, the decision about whose rights are more important is clearly
37 N1120A : No it isn't. The Supreme Court has determined this and they are the ones who decide what law governs.
38 Pope : Go back and read what we've written. This exchange pre-supposes Roe was overturned thereby returning the issue to the states.
39 AirStairs : In what part? It has been a while since AP US History, but I am just curious as skimming over it I don't find much. It might be implicit, but I don't
40 JCS17 : You, of all people, actually telling me I'm irritable is some feat as well. I acknowledge that. However, calling them religious zealots is bit much,
41 AirStairs : I suppose my argument would be the same whether or not the laws were state or federal. I philosophically disagree with their ability to figuratively
43 N328KF : This is actually what I meant. Whoops.
44 QXatFAT : More times then not it is Christians as well that are the pro-life and for the death penalty. Mainly this is the case because of capital punishment i
45 Flighty : What's the difference? Fundamentalist Christian clerics are just as violent as fundamentalist Muslim clerics. I do not fear Islam any more than I fea
46 Pope : Are you saying that the power to prevent murder is not a power that a state possess? If I understand your arguments correctly, you have admitted that
47 Baroque : Indeed is not strong enough. Very interesting attitudes in some of the other posts. One thing I have learned (again it seems) is that parthenogenesis
48 N1120A : Casey would be the case that they would have to overturn.
49 HuskyAviation : It would have to be both, I think--Casey established the standard to protect a woman's right to receive an abortion, but Roe established the constitu
50 N1120A : Well, it would depend. Overturning Casey's specific test would roll back to Roe, but overturning Casey's general holding that the right to have an ab
51 Pope : Gentlemen, in the colloquial the right to an abortion is understood by 99% of the participants on this forum to derive from Roe. So while it might re
52 GDB : In 1965, the BBC 'Wednesday Play' showed a drama called Up The Junction , a look at the lives of loves of a group of young ladies in and around South
53 Slider : I didn't say it didn't exist--my statement, in context, was that it hasn't been the instrument of birth control and done so with such convenience.
54 AirStairs : As long as it is inside the mother (I will leave "inside" undefined only for the sake of our abstract argument), I consider it not an individual but
55 Pope : So if I understand you correctly it logically follows that if a woman announced that she was going to cut off her hand at 12 noon tomorrow at the ste
56 N1120A : Abortions have been extremely common through history, just more under the radar. Then again, you likely think we should still send pregnant girls awa
57 GDB : What? Do some really think that abortions started in the US only after Roe vs Wade? Check that, is it thought that large numbers of terminations were
58 AirStairs : They have the authority to protect her from physically harming herself or others (just as a psychotherapist must disclose suicidal, self-injurius, or
59 Baroque : Great post GDB. But you seem to fail to understand that unwanted pregnancies are entirely the fault of the woman, and that society is the better for
60 DocLightning : Just out of curiosity, who here has witnessed an Elective Termination of Pregnancy (ETOP)? *raises hand* It was one of the most disturbing things I've
61 Slider : Certified mad doctor indeed. My prayers go out to you and your soul.
62 GDB : DocLightning, fair enough, bit it does not address the reality of very large numbers of illegal abortions, which WOULD happen. Because that was how it
63 Post contains links Sv7887 : Well you are doing your job and I guess that is doing the right..I thought elective late term abortions are banned in most states? I was looking at t
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