Sponsor Message:
Non Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Poor Hedge Funds Losing Money....  
User currently offlineSv7887 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1025 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 1149 times:

From Bloomberg:

"Hedge funds may post their worst month in at least five years after bets on financial stocks falling and on crude oil rising backfired."

"Wagers on a decline in financial stocks and homebuilders, one of the most popular, soured after Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac shares more than doubled in the six trading days to July 23. Bullish bets on crude oil turned to a loss as oil slid 15 percent from a record $145.29 a barrel on July 3 after doubling in a year."


http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...601087&sid=a_9IKPcAlqfQ&refer=home

You know what? I am happy these jerks are now suffering. How many people across the world are suffering because of their profiteering? How many American truck drivers, Auto workers and airline workers are scared for their jobs because of their "Bets" on oil?

I am not saying they are completely responsible for the Oil run-up but $120 a barrel is a heck of a lot better than $150!!

Obviously we need to develop alternatives, but it will take time. What kind of life will we have once we get there if airlines, auto companies, and factories are killed off because of $200/barrel oil!

16 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 1131 times:



Quoting Sv7887 (Thread starter):
You know what? I am happy these jerks are now suffering.

Do you have a 401(k) or similar, IRA, pension plan? If so, I willing to bet that a small portion of the funds in the plan, invested in hedge funds. So that jerk just might be you.


User currently offlineHuskyAviation From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1152 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 1116 times:



Quoting AirCop (Reply 1):
Do you have a 401(k) or similar, IRA, pension plan? If so, I willing to bet that a small portion of the funds in the plan, invested in hedge funds. So that jerk just might be you.

Haha, so true...

Quoting Sv7887 (Thread starter):
What kind of life will we have once we get there if airlines, auto companies, and factories are killed off because of $200/barrel oil!

And what we will do with all those consultants?!?!  Wow!


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25549 posts, RR: 50
Reply 3, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 1111 times:



Quoting Sv7887 (Thread starter):
You know what? I am happy these jerks are now suffering.

You are happy the average American 'jerk' worker is suffering? What are you nuts?

Hedge fund holdings very much belong to average people that will see their portfolio values hurt as a result.

People like yourself obviously forget that the easy to blame corporations or investment funds are very much owned by us the average citizen.
So its never simply a us versus them, but instead us versus us when things happen.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineMt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6601 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week ago) and read 1100 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting Sv7887 (Thread starter):
I am happy these jerks are now suffering. How many people across the world are suffering because of their profiteering?

What are you a communist? Whats more "American" than making money?



Step into my office, baby
User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8577 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week ago) and read 1092 times:



Quoting Sv7887 (Thread starter):
How many people across the world are suffering because of their profiteering?

Probably nobody. Are you saying when hedge funds make our markets function better, freeing up new money... that's bad?

Those dudes created a lot of money, and they keep what, 10% of it for themselves. The other 90%+ has gone back into the American economy.

The useful thing hedge funds do is hard to explain. They are like friendly little maggots. They go in, and clean up places where the market has become rotten. They get their feed, but they keep our economy loose and healthy. The mortgage crisis / oil runup may have been slightly exacerbated by hedge funds. But you know what, it's worth it. The primary causes of these things had nothing to do with hedge funds. So I dont agree with you there.

Quoting Sv7887 (Thread starter):
How many American truck drivers, Auto workers and airline workers

The reason we are a rich country is not because of our truck drivers.


User currently offlineSv7887 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1025 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week ago) and read 1096 times:



Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 2):
Quoting Sv7887 (Thread starter):
What kind of life will we have once we get there if airlines, auto companies, and factories are killed off because of $200/barrel oil!

And what we will do with all those consultants?!?! Wow!

Hahaha Touche!

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
You are happy the average American 'jerk' worker is suffering? What are you nuts?

Hedge fund holdings very much belong to average people that will see their portfolio values hurt as a result.

People like yourself obviously forget that the easy to blame corporations or investment funds are very much owned by us the average citizen.

You might be interested to know I have a MSc in Finance and Economics from the London School of Economics. I know damn well how the financial markets work.

They are down a few percent, and no sane investor will concentrate too much of their holdings on a Hedge fund!

So what's the tradeoff? Speculator induced $150 a barrel oil from $70 a barrel or a few percent of measly profit.

The "Common" man is getting raped with these energy prices. What good is a few % return when you can't afford your fill up the tank or eat?

Most of my own holdings are index funds, so whatever risk I have in Oil is probably hedged by gains in the transportation and airlines stocks. I'm only down 3.5% this year.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 4):
What are you a communist? Whats more "American" than making money?

I think my college professor said it best, "Making Profit within social acceptable means.."

And who said all Americans believe in profit by any means possible? I'm also against outsourcing too. Does that make me a Communist or a concerned citizen worried about what's going to happen to the working classes in America?

-Sam


User currently offlineSv7887 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1025 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week ago) and read 1078 times:



Quoting Flighty (Reply 5):
The reason we are a rich country is not because of our truck drivers.

Sure but high crime rates and social unrest that results from unemployed Truck drivers is not a pleasant thing. Having your working classes unable to eat or pay for heat is also a bad thing. The strength of this country is the average American worker, this country cannot run without them.

If you think this country will survive with a few airlines collapsing, GM, Ford, and Chrysler bankrupt amongst others, you should think again. You're talking hundreds of thousands of workers unemployed who then will default on their mortgages making the credit mess ten times worse.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 5):
The useful thing hedge funds do is hard to explain. They are like friendly little maggots. They go in, and clean up places where the market has become rotten. They get their feed, but they keep our economy loose and healthy. The mortgage crisis / oil runup may have been slightly exacerbated by hedge funds. But you know what, it's worth it. The primary causes of these things had nothing to do with hedge funds.

I know what they do..my MSc is in Finance. I don't see how driving up $150 barrel oil is good except for forcing people to consider alternatives. There are supply concerns, a lack of new refineries, demand from the East, but they didn't make it any better.


User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week ago) and read 1078 times:



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 6):
You might be interested to know I have a MSc in Finance and Economics from the London School of Economics. I know damn well how the financial markets work.

Did they not cover capitalism at the LSE?

Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 6):
I think my college professor said it best, "Making Profit within social acceptable means.."

Who determines what is socially acceptable? If a particular action is legal (the best surrogate we have for a determination of what is socially acceptable within the context of this question), why should you or anyone else impose a greater standard on the actor than what society has determined is appropriate by legislation?

I'm a firm proponent of Adam Smith's invisible hand. I think that in the vast majority of situations where government seeks to impose some sort of ex post facto corrective (equitable) action (i.e. the mortgage bail out), they create a far bigger problem than would have resulted if the government had not acted and the market corrected itself.


User currently offlineSv7887 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1025 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week ago) and read 1071 times:



Quoting Pope (Reply 8):
Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 6):
You might be interested to know I have a MSc in Finance and Economics from the London School of Economics. I know damn well how the financial markets work.

Did they not cover capitalism at the LSE?

You know the funny thing is that LSE is pretty Left'ish in political leanings.

Quoting Pope (Reply 8):
I'm a firm proponent of Adam Smith's invisible hand. I think that in the vast majority of situations where government seeks to impose some sort of ex post facto corrective (equitable) action (i.e. the mortgage bail out), they create a far bigger problem than would have resulted if the government had not acted and the market corrected itself.

I agree with you for the most part. Bailing out the homeowners is a dumb thing to do..But at the same time Pope don't you agree mass bankruptcies is not a good development for the US economy?

This country was built on the strength of it's industry. Other economic powers do whatever it takes to protect their industry: Japan, China, India, Germany, and Russia, yet here we are foolishly outsourcing everything to the Chinese.

Yes, we are moving to a services economy, but I don't see that as a good thing. We're net consumers, whereas we were net exporters. This rampant consumerism is founded on debt, that the Chinese are amassing more and more of..

I'm a fiscal conservative as you are, but I am looking at the big picture.


User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week ago) and read 1058 times:



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 9):
I agree with you for the most part. Bailing out the homeowners is a dumb thing to do..But at the same time Pope don't you agree mass bankruptcies is not a good development for the US economy?

I believe that the US bankruptcy code is one of the greatest obstacles to the functioning of a free market that exists. On the corporate side, I'm in favor of a "one and done" approach that precludes repeated trips through Chapter 11 where failed business models gain an ADVANTAGE over their competitors.

On the individual side, I think the matter needs to be resolved between the borrower and the lender. When we start supporting one, we change the risk / reward in favor of one or the other. While a wave of massive individual bankruptcies would be bad for the economy, the lenders know this. Therefore, it is in THEIR best interest to work with borrowers to resolve the problems. You see, if you allow it to function the invisible hand works.

However, when we create a response based on an emotional premise ("we need to save people's homes") we effectively excuse irrational behavior by both parties and shift the consequences to a third party, the US taxpayer. At some point participants in a market need to realize that risk and reward are linked. This bubble was created when people forgot that. It's only solution is a re-linking of the relationship.

For this reason, since day 1 of this crisis I favored an increase in interest rates. That would have (a) caused an accelerated correction in the price of housing (b) given lenders incentive to lend and (c) forced lenders to confront the weaknesses in their loan portfolios quickly. Instead, by lowering rates, the fed is prolonging the housing crisis (a huge number of people in financial trouble can't afford the debt service even if the loans were interest free). Lenders aren't lending because the returns aren't attractive for the risk they now appreciate exists. And finally, the lenders haven't substantively come to the table because they felt it was better to bleed slowly rather than amputate an irreparably damaged appendage.

This resulted in a flight of capital from money markets to commodities which is what is causing the asset pricing bubbles in oil and food. We need to address the fundamental cause of this illness and stop treating the symptoms.


User currently offlineMt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6601 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (6 years 2 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 1031 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 6):
Does that make me a Communist or a concerned citizen worried about what's going to happen to the working classes in America?

A communist. A pink-tree-hugging-hippie, Next thing you are going to ask for is for free healthcare. What nerve!!!

Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 6):

And who said all Americans believe in profit by any means possible?

Have you seen the Housing Market mess? So you remember ENRON and Worldcom?



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineSv7887 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1025 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 2 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 1030 times:



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 11):
A communist. A pink-tree-hugging-hippie, Next thing you are going to ask for is for free healthcare. What nerve!!!

LOL...

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 11):
Have you seen the Housing Market mess? So you remember ENRON and Worldcom?

So you're stereotyping a whole nation based on the actions of idiots and criminals? (Enron and Worldcom execs were thrown in jail)


User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8577 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (6 years 2 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 1001 times:



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 7):
If you think this country will survive with a few airlines collapsing, GM, Ford, and Chrysler bankrupt amongst others, you should think again.

Whatever, you sound like my dad... heh.. All those businesses could be bought for about $3.00 in today's money. They provide jobs... a declining number of them... in an out-dated way. I could take or leave GM, Ford, Chrysler.

Fortunately we have lots of new companies in the USA that are doing ok!

The world economy is booming.... and we agonize over a few spent old companies... These companies don't rule the world anymore, but they wish they did.

Quoting Pope (Reply 10):
For this reason, since day 1 of this crisis I favored an increase in interest rates.

Me too.  airplane 


User currently offlineSv7887 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1025 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 2 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 993 times:



Quoting Flighty (Reply 13):

The world economy is booming.... and we agonize over a few spent old companies... These companies don't rule the world anymore, but they wish they did.

The world economy is hardly booming excepting China, India and Russia. Consumer sentiment is at a five year low in Germany. The US economy is in deep trouble, so endorsing even further shutdowns will be a disaster.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 13):

Whatever, you sound like my dad... heh.. All those businesses could be bought for about $3.00 in today's money. They provide jobs... a declining number of them... in an out-dated way. I could take or leave GM, Ford, Chrysler.

Fortunately we have lots of new companies in the USA that are doing ok!

Really? Which ones? Last I checked the unemployment rate is going up. Unless it's energy related the country is taking quite the hit right now.

GM, Ford, Chrysler and the like provide hundreds of thousands of jobs, not just on their own but through their supplier such as Johnson Controls, Delphi and others. Letting them go out of business would be a disaster.

You still didn't answer my question about why every other country who is still relevant protects their heavy industries, whether it be Japan, China, Germany, India and Russia. Surely, they are not fools? Don't you think their Economists can tell them about the wonders of Globalization and Outsourcing?

We are the only fools cannibalizing our industry and selling the technology to others who merely improve our designs and push us out of the market. Ever wonder what happened to domestic electronics producers?

Industry is the engine of growth, transitioning to a services based economy makes us Net Importers..Look how well that has worked for us!!! Have you seen the US Trade deficit lately?

We won WWII on the strength of American industry, efforts which we couldn't replicate today if we had to.


User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8577 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (6 years 2 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 973 times:



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 14):
Unless it's energy related the country is taking quite the hit right now.

Or education related, or security related, or health care related. I'm not seeing the hit. It's still the richest country I have ever seen, including Japan and Germany.

Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 14):
Industry is the engine of growth

My perspective, education is the engine of growth. Industry is too easy to put offshore. It is great to have pretty factories, and in a sense we still do. It's just they are in China and we pay them cheap wages, so we can sit around and relax.

What is the problem with that? We still bring home the bacon. We expanded our community to include some poor farmers in China, and today everybody is better off. We are richer and so are they.

Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 14):
Ever wonder what happened to domestic electronics producers?

No, I understand just fine what happened to them. They are gone because we are too rich to be making plastic calculators anymore. As a side benefit, everybody in the USA can afford a calculator because we hire Chinese workers to make them. Everybody got a huge standard of living upgrade. Did you know a microwave cost $500 in 1981? Amazing isn't it?

Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 14):
The world economy is hardly booming excepting China, India and Russia.

It's more than just that. The entire Middle East, much of Africa, Canada, and I believe Mexico is doing well too. Oh yeah, Brazil. Solid 75% of the world population right there. Times are good.

Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 14):
We won WWII on the strength of American industry, efforts which we couldn't replicate today if we had to.

We could win WWII today in an instant.

I see what you are saying. But I think you are influenced by the media and not the big picture. There are technical, esoteric fluctuations in the finance markets. Which you should understand. But they do not mean modern life has gone to hell. The American economy is still first in the world. With financial complexity comes ups and downs. The alternatives -- fixed financial markets, barriers to trade -- would be far worse. Why not enjoy the ride?


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8964 posts, RR: 39
Reply 16, posted (6 years 2 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 951 times:

http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2008/03/14/GR2008031401451.gif

"Because money is cheap and the credit rating agencies say that these bonds are rated AAA"



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Money Topic: posted Fri Mar 14 2008 18:16:54 by NWOrientDC10
UK Taxpayers Money Being Well Spent? posted Mon Mar 10 2008 06:13:39 by Farcry
Does Money Influence Elections? posted Mon Feb 25 2008 14:04:36 by MaverickM11
"Rich Dad Poor Dad" Book? posted Wed Feb 20 2008 07:05:34 by Kay
DirecTV: Can We Save Money From MediaCrap? posted Sat Feb 9 2008 12:59:14 by BR715-A1-30
Teenage Girls Steal 9-Year Old's GS Money-And Brag posted Thu Feb 7 2008 05:17:15 by Falcon84
Waving Goodbye To Hegemony - America Losing Power posted Sun Jan 27 2008 13:28:06 by LHStarAlliance
Poor Jobs By Trade "professionals" posted Fri Jan 25 2008 23:00:23 by UTA_flyinghigh
If You Had The Money - What Car Would You Drive? posted Thu Jan 24 2008 11:40:29 by LHStarAlliance
The American College Experience, And Money posted Wed Jan 23 2008 07:06:46 by Soku39