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The Second Cold War  
User currently offlineNorthwestair From Poland, joined Jul 2001, 648 posts, RR: 4
Posted (6 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1397 times:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20080729...;_ylt=AlsloS5fMxgEuE8_JyDuHB2s0NUE

It sounds like Russia doesn't want another Cold War but that the USA is starting to push to many buttons and is forcing the Russian Government.


I don't care who you fly just as long as you fly
17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineSv7887 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1025 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1375 times:



Quoting Northwestair (Thread starter):
It sounds like Russia doesn't want another Cold War but that the USA is starting to push to many buttons and is forcing the Russian Government.

Stop blaming America for everything...Notice the article says NATO expansion not AMERICAN.

The presence of 10, yes that's right TEN interceptors does NOTHING to deter Moscow's HUNDREDS of Missiles.

It's BS and Russia ought to call itself out on blackmailing nation states by threatening to cut off their natural gas supply.

They are just pissed their neighbors want in with the West and not them. Ukraine is a sovereign nation and if they want to join NATO, that's their choice...Russia has no more right to interfere in sovereign nations than the US does...


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (6 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1375 times:



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 1):
Russia has no more right to interfere in sovereign nations than the US does...

You mean like in Iraq? Ah, I get it.  Yeah sure

You have to understand the Russian mindset, Sv7887. Their history of being a battlefield goes way back, and in the last century, they lost about 50 million people in a world war, largely at the hands of one western power, Germany.

It's understandable as they see former Republics of the old USSR lining up with NATO that they'd be a bit touchy about that.

This just needs time to settle out, and I think Russia will be fine. I think having a new Administration in D.C. beginning in January can't hurt matters, either.


User currently offlineSv7887 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1025 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1375 times:



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 2):
You mean like in Iraq? Ah, I get it. Yeah sure

You mean like Russia in Afghanistan? That ring a bell?

On the Iraq Issue you know damn well that a Democratic President attacked that country and beat George Bush I over the head with "Didn't finish the job." ATTACKED Iraq (Operation Desert Fox) and signed a bill calling for regime change in Iraq.

http://www.fas.org/news/iraq/1998/11/01/981101-in.htm

You can sit there and pin it solely on GWB, but the Iraq problem started in 1991.

So don't act all innocent like Iraq wasn't being meddled with BEFORE GWB took office.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 2):
It's understandable as they see former Republics of the old USSR lining up with NATO that they'd be a bit touchy about that.

Doesn't give them the right to threaten and bully SOVEREIGN nations from exercising their free will...Democracy anyone????


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 2003, 14080 posts, RR: 62
Reply 4, posted (6 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1335 times:



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 2):
You have to understand the Russian mindset, Sv7887. Their history of being a battlefield goes way back, and in the last century, they lost about 50 million people in a world war, largely at the hands of one western power, Germany.

It's understandable as they see former Republics of the old USSR lining up with NATO that they'd be a bit touchy about that.

It actually goes back to the early 19th century. Since Napoleon, all invasions came from the West and wreaked havoc inside Russia. So since WW2 the military mindset was to create a glacis of surrounding nations, where the fighting should take place without touching the motherland.
But since the end of cold war the surrounding nations don't want to be Russia's future battlefield anymore and this annoys the Russian generals, who are still stuck in a time warp.

Jan


User currently offlinePlanespotting From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3529 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (6 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1317 times:



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 3):
You mean like Russia in Afghanistan? That ring a bell?

Actually, you should have said:

"You mean like the Soviet Union (a country and a political regime that no longer exists and therefore is irrelevant to this argument) in Afghanistan?"

No offense, just saying that you can't technically blame the current Russian government for their invasion of Afghanistan.

Obviously, both countries have had their problems sticking their noses where they didn't belong.



Do you like movies about gladiators?
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 984 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (6 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1308 times:



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 2):
You have to understand the Russian mindset, Sv7887. Their history of being a battlefield goes way back, and in the last century, they lost about 50 million people in a world war, largely at the hands of one western power, Germany.

There is another Russian mindset, dating as far back as Peter I in the 17th century, that could best be described as a massive inferiority complex toward western Europe and later the west in general. The fact that the west still considers Russia a largely backwards and corrupt nation irks them to no end, and they look forward to every opportunity in which they can prove themselves.

Case in point. Russia knows those ballistic missile interceptors change nothing about the strategic balance with the US. But it's an opportunity to exercise diplomatic power and expand their umbrella of influence so they are jumping on it.

It's all talk, and the U.S. and our allies shouldn't humor them.


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (6 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1308 times:



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 3):
You can sit there and pin it solely on GWB, but the Iraq problem started in 1991.

Actually, it did not. His father, an honorable man-which is more than I can say for him-kept his word not to occupy Iraq and overthrow that government. He made a pledge to the Arab Allies in his alliance not to do so, and he kept it, even thought no one could have stopped us. He had to do so to keep the Arab nations in the coalition. That, and keeping Israel on the sidelines even after Saddam launched missles at that nation.

Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 3):
Doesn't give them the right to threaten and bully SOVEREIGN nations from exercising their free will...Democracy anyone????

Again, may I once again bring up Iraq. You can deny it, but, in this case, Russia and the U.S. are pretty much the same.


User currently offlineSv7887 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1025 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1296 times:



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 7):
Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 3):
Doesn't give them the right to threaten and bully SOVEREIGN nations from exercising their free will...Democracy anyone????

Again, may I once again bring up Iraq. You can deny it, but, in this case, Russia and the U.S. are pretty much the same.

You're 100% right there though the US has poured money into that country and despite all the mismanagement has tried to rebuild it. The Russian method was just to smash everything to pieces...

I think despite the precursors to the war, the conduct of the majority of American soldiers is miles above the Russian behavior in their occupation of Afghanistan.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 7):
Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 3):
You can sit there and pin it solely on GWB, but the Iraq problem started in 1991.

Actually, it did not. His father, an honorable man-which is more than I can say for him-kept his word not to occupy Iraq and overthrow that government. He made a pledge to the Arab Allies in his alliance not to do so, and he kept it, even thought no one could have stopped us. He had to do so to keep the Arab nations in the coalition. That, and keeping Israel on the sidelines even after Saddam launched missles at that nation.

It did because Mr. Bush was accused of "not finishing the job" by then candidate Clinton.

President Clinton also attacked Iraq, but why?

As the President said in his own words:

"Heavy as they are, the costs of action must be weighed against the price of inaction. If Saddam defies the world and we fail to respond, we will face a far greater threat in the future. Saddam will strike again at his neighbors; he will make war on his own people. And mark my words he will develop weapons of mass destruction. He will deploy them, and he will use them."

These words were uttered by William Jefferson Clinton, not by George W. Bush, to explain why the U.S. launched air strikes against Saddam in 1998. But no one has accused President Clinton of distorting intelligence.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Iraq/hl825.cfm

So if Iraq was solved in 1991 how come President Clinton attacked them in 1998?


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (6 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 1287 times:



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 8):
You're 100% right there though the US has poured money into that country and despite all the mismanagement has tried to rebuild it.

That's the least we can do, after invading that country without just cause. But you are correct, in that the U.S. does have a history of helping vanquished foes get back on their feet. Germany, Italy and Japan can attest to that. In contrast, the old USSR simply let Eastern Europe rot for over a generation.

Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 8):
It did because Mr. Bush was accused of "not finishing the job" by then candidate Clinton.

Personally, I don/t care if Clinton did do that. If he did, he was wrong. I did not vote for Bush 41 either time, but I gained a lot of respect for him in his 4 years in office, as a statesman, and as a man of honor and principal.


User currently offlinePelican From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 2531 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (6 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 1280 times:



Quoting Northwestair (Thread starter):

It sounds like Russia doesn't want another Cold War but that the USA is starting to push to many buttons and is forcing the Russian Government.

Russia is nowhere near to the position to start a new cold war. Just look at their productional base, technologies & equipment, money and size of population - they are outclassed on all those points by the US of A let alone the whole NATO.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 4):
It actually goes back to the early 19th century. Since Napoleon, all invasions came from the West and wreaked havoc inside Russia.

Well, at least in WWI Russia started with the invasion so it's not that easy. Nonetheless your argument about the glacis is right. However Russia managed for 3 succeeding centuries to spread westwards until 1989. So all those nations bordering Russia in the east are struggling for independence and peace for centuries.

pelican


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (6 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1241 times:



Quoting Pelican (Reply 10):
So all those nations bordering Russia in the east are struggling for independence and peace for centuries.

Good point. While Russia certainly is a bit paranoid about it's former Satillites and Warsaw pact allies heading into NATO, one cannot forget the bitterness of all those nations' and how they suffered under Soviet rule from 1945 until the fall of Communism in Europe.

They're competing forces, and, hopefully, those forces can find a stable middle ground that everyone can live with. We don't need the USSR back, that is for certain.


User currently offlineBoeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (6 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 1222 times:



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 2):
You have to understand the Russian mindset, Sv7887. Their history of being a battlefield goes way back, and in the last century, they lost about 50 million people in a world war, largely at the hands of one western power, Germany.

It's understandable as they see former Republics of the old USSR lining up with NATO that they'd be a bit touchy about that.

Maybe you need to understand the mindset of some of the nations willing to host these interceptor missiles. Or that of the former Soviet Republics that clamoured to join NATO. What do you think? That Bush twisted their arms? Russia only has itself to blame for its current predicament much as the US only has itself to blame for Iraq.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 2):
This just needs time to settle out, and I think Russia will be fine. I think having a new Administration in D.C. beginning in January can't hurt matters, either.

Wow, Yankees are naive.  Wink

Wake up. The Cold War never ended. It just went on hiatus. Anyone who thought Russia was just going to roll over and stop their power lusting must have had their heads in the sand during most of the 20th century, or have let wishful thinking go to their heads.

Quoting Northwestair (Thread starter):
It sounds like Russia doesn't want another Cold War but that the USA is starting to push to many buttons and is forcing the Russian Government.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Restarting long range bomber patrols as a sad form of shadow posturing, dropping flags on the North Pole sea bed, whining about 10 interceptor missiles (even while being invited in on the project might I add), government harassing foreign companies and securing tighter control of industry...yeah, it's big bad America all over again. Remember when President Johnson sent tanks into Prague?  Yeah sure

If I were to look for your name in an IPN list, would I get a hit?

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (6 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 1210 times:



Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 12):
Maybe you need to understand the mindset of some of the nations willing to host these interceptor missiles. Or that of the former Soviet Republics that clamoured to join NATO. What do you think? That Bush twisted their arms?

Maybe you missed this point I made in reply #11:

"While Russia certainly is a bit paranoid about it's former Satillites and Warsaw pact allies heading into NATO, one cannot forget the bitterness of all those nations' and how they suffered under Soviet rule from 1945 until the fall of Communism in Europe?

So I did cover that side of it.  Smile


User currently offlineBoeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (6 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1207 times:



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 13):
Maybe you missed this point I made in reply #11:

"While Russia certainly is a bit paranoid about it's former Satillites and Warsaw pact allies heading into NATO, one cannot forget the bitterness of all those nations' and how they suffered under Soviet rule from 1945 until the fall of Communism in Europe?

So I did cover that side of it.

Ah. I stand corrected.  Smile

Point cheerfully withdrawn...or repeated for effect for everyone else, whatever's good for you.

Now I could add Russia's actions pre-1945. I could dig into the fact that the USSR remains the only axis power never held accountable. They helped Hitler start WW2 afterall. Something Putin would rather whitewash.

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 


User currently offlineCragley From Australia, joined Jul 2004, 427 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1121 times:

Cynics and Realists know that NATO = America  Smile

America never 'helps' anyone without taking something for their efforts.


So Noble!  Smile


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 984 posts, RR: 51
Reply 16, posted (6 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1119 times:



Quoting Cragley (Reply 15):
Cynics and Realists know that NATO = America Smile

America never 'helps' anyone without taking something for their efforts.

The purpose of NATO was to provide a collective defense against the Soviet Union, a nation which murdered and oppressed more of its own citizens than Nazi Germany executed during the Holocaust. If our selfish interest was to protect the liberty and freedom of hundreds of millions of Americans, Canadians, British, French, Germans, Italians, etc, etc, etc,.... Guilty as freaking charged  Yeah sure


User currently offlineAirStairs From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 487 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1101 times:



Quoting Northwestair (Thread starter):
It sounds like Russia doesn't want another Cold War but that the USA is starting to push to many buttons and is forcing the Russian Government.

HAHAHA.

Switching the gas levers on and off (wait-no, it was a "mechanical disruption" that happened to affect the Czech Republic but none of its neighbors, immediately after the missile defense deal), controlling the business sector entirely through political clout, wielding influence over neighbor's elections and the TNK-BP ordeal are not pushing buttons?

Neither sides want a cold war, that is silly. But Russia's ideas of how it is going to go about possibly reemerging as a major power are far different than what we expected of them and what was said from the outset of the Russian Federation.


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