Ogre727 From Spain, joined Feb 2005, 693 posts, RR: 2 Posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1026 times:
Hi guys,
In the following weeks I will be moving out of France, to Zurich, and one of the first things I want to do there is getting a car, which I didn't have in Paris.
These are my options:
a) Volkswagen Golf
b) Volkswagen Polo
c) Mini
d) Toyota Yaris
e) BMW Series 1
Now, all of them have their pros and cons: costs, beauty, driving sensation, etc.
Does anyone have any of the above? what is your experience? should I keep away from any?
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 19695 posts, RR: 56 Reply 4, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1016 times:
Francoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3195 posts, RR: 10 Reply 5, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 1005 times:
Quoting Andz (Reply 2): Whichever one you decide on, get diesel.
I've never been a fan of diesel, never will, even though they have gone a long way and a few powerplants out there are simply amazing.
But I believe Gasoline engines are fighting back, especially since their consumption keeps going down, their driving agreement is almost always superior to that of a diesel, they're cheaper to buy and the price of Diesel keeps increasing, victim of its own success.
VW is coming out with terrific gas engines, such as the 1.4 TSI, available on the Golf.
OF course, there will always be resale value... It all depends how much you want to favor/sacrifice driving pleasure and performance.
Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
L410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5392 posts, RR: 19 Reply 6, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 999 times:
Diesel only makes sense if you drive a lot of km per year. I have a diesel (HDI) and definitely would go for a gas engine next time. Cheaper to maintain, more comfortable (e.g. faster heating in winter, less noise).
RayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 7694 posts, RR: 5 Reply 7, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 992 times:
I'd get the current VW Polo five-door hatchback with its best turbodiesel engine, especially since petrol is taxed way higher on a per liter basis than diesel fuel in Europe.
Francoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3195 posts, RR: 10 Reply 8, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 979 times:
Quoting RayChuang (Reply 7): since petrol is taxed way higher on a per liter basis than diesel fuel in Europe.
It's relative really. Petrol tends to be taxed higher than diesel, but what matters is the overall price per litre. It varies depending on the countries, and is constantly increasing due to increased demand.
In the countries where it's more expensive than unleaded, it's getting more expensive, and where it's cheaper, it's closing the gap.
I have no idea how it is in Switzerland right now, though.
Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
Ogre727 From Spain, joined Feb 2005, 693 posts, RR: 2 Reply 9, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 976 times:
Quoting Francoflier (Reply 8): In the countries where it's more expensive than unleaded, it's getting more expensive, and where it's cheaper, it's closing the gap.
Maybe so, but isn't it true that diesel vehicles use a lot less gas than the other kind? if this comes across as a stupid comment, just forgive my ignorance in cars.
L410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5392 posts, RR: 19 Reply 12, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 959 times:
Quoting Ogre727 (Reply 9): Maybe so, but isn't it true that diesel vehicles use a lot less gas than the other kind? if this comes across as a stupid comment, just forgive my ignorance in cars.
On average... how many km per year do you drive???
Ogre727 From Spain, joined Feb 2005, 693 posts, RR: 2 Reply 13, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 955 times:
Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 12): On average... how many km per year do you drive???
I guess not more than 15.000. I will take the train to work in Zurich, so I am thinking weekend trips and going to the supermarket... not much more than that.
KiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 5286 posts, RR: 3 Reply 14, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 939 times:
Righto my last three cars have been a VW Gold 1.6 FSI, Mercedes C200 CDI and now a BMW 318d, all new and all in the last 18 months, so I think I know what you are going through.
I liked the VW but after owning the Mercedes and BMW you notice that the build quailty is iffy at best on a Golf and poor on the Polo, what I would get from your list is either a Mini Cooper D or the BMW 118d, both these cars are the only ones on your list which will crack 50mpg or 5 litres per 100km.
We need a second car very soon and my list has only two vehicles on it, a BMW 118d Msport and a Mini Cooper D Clubman. Diesel maintenance isn't any more expensive than petrol maintenance, diesels will last a lot longer, in europe you get far better resale on a diesel, you will also get better resale on the Mini or BMW than the Golf or Toyota.
If you want something fun to drive and enjoy driving the BMW and Mini will also leave you with a smile on your face, something that can't be said for any of your other choices.
L410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5392 posts, RR: 19 Reply 15, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 927 times:
Then you're an ideal customer for gasoline engine, imho.
Example: Volkswagen Golf 1.6 FSI 85kWTrendline, 3-door %u20AC 15.320,-, gas mileage 6.7 l / 100km
(the cheapest one with air conditioning found on autoscout24.de)
vs.
Volkswagen Golf 1.9 TDI 66kW DPF Trendline, 3-door EUR 16.960,- gas mileage 5.1 l / 100km (the cheapest one with air conditioning found on autoscout24.de)
Identical car, identical trim (Trendline). Difference in price EUR 1.640.
Savings per 100km = 1.6 l which is...(I don't know how much diesel costs in Switzerland... wild guess 1.4 EUR/l???), that is total of 2.2 EUR/100km? If my calculation is correct (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) diesel car will start to save you money due to lower consumption only after driving 75,000km first, when the difference in higher purchase price is finally compensated - that is after almost 5 years given your annual average.
And that does not even include e.g. difference of in a bill for a typical annual check, which tends to be higher for diesels.
Last but not least... if you really don't care about performance as much as economics you'll buy the (imho perfectly good) 1.6 16v 75kW, which is even cheaper than the more advanced 1.6 FSI, and the difference will be even more significant (another option is of course the - even cheaper - 1.4 59kW engine, but I have no experience with that but I think you'd be sacrificing more performance than is reasonable).
If you want to go for a GTI or something like that, then of course these calculations are irrelevant, but since you seriously consider diesel I assume gas mileage is quite important for you!?
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 14): in europe you get far better resale on a diesel, you will also get better resale on the Mini or BMW than the Golf or Toyota
a) The higher resale value of certain brands is very country-specific
b) The "diesel-hype" is past its best days, imho, at least in the countries where diesel is becoming more expensive than gas (the difference is getting close to 20%), and I assume diesel will continue to be more vulnerable to price increases than gas given the fact that the demand is currently higher from trucks, buses and all those who simply have to drive for living. So if he does not rely on car with getting to/from work and his annual mileage is somewhere below average it makes much more financial sense to go for gas.
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 14): Diesel maintenance isn't any more expensive than petrol maintenance
Francoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3195 posts, RR: 10 Reply 16, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 909 times:
Quoting Ogre727 (Reply 9): Maybe so, but isn't it true that diesel vehicles use a lot less gas than the other kind? if this comes across as a stupid comment, just forgive my ignorance in cars.
Absolutely not a stupid comment, especially seeing as many people these days just go for the Diesel versions without even knowing if it would be financially better for them or not.
Diesel do generally consume less per mile per horsepower than gas engines, but they are also generally more expensive to buy.
So whether buying one is worth it basically all comes down to how much you drive, the price of Diesel v. gas in your specific country and the price of the diesel version v. the price of the petrol version.
Let410turbolet's excellent post above sums it all up really. It could be that in the case of the Golf, a 'small' driver would probably be better off buying the gas one vs. the diesel, even though the diesel consumes less.
But then you also have to consider the resale value (again, country specific), maintenance cost (pretty even these days) and whether you favor performance over running cost (gas versions are generally more fun to drive).
Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
Ppcd From Romania, joined Nov 2007, 41 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 901 times:
I'm a BMW owner for 6 years as well. Great cars overall, well built, very reliable, vast engine choice.
I won't buy a diesel, especially a VAG one (Volkswagen Group , no matter is a VW, Audi, Seat, Skoda) , they are very noisy, underpowered , old engines, turbos fail like no other brand, fuel injectors have been an issue on their diesel cars for years. The list could go on with their ugly interiors and that rubber that rips off from the doors, dash, buttons, etc. It's incredible how a VAG car looks in a few years (two is enough for your car to look at least 5 years old).
However I don't recommend diesel engines unless you drive at least 40,000 km's a year otherwise the "economy" won't be visible.
Cons ? Inspections come more often then a petrol car (usually 10-15,000 km's for a diesel and 20-30,000 km's for a petrol car)
Liquids and filters are more expensive for a diesel.
You have a high risk to have one or more turbo failures. Intercoolers, fuel injectors and high pressure diesel pumps (sometimes diesel cars have up to 3 of these) fail more often.
I'd stick with a petrol car whenever I can (even turbocharged) but naturally aspirated will do the trick.
Honda's are pretty reliable, I like their engines, sometimes a bit underpowered compared with similar competitors but yet very reliable. We can discuss on the design but overall I'd buy a Honda.
Toyota's are pretty much the same as Honda's.
I don't know, it's your call but my advice is to buy a petrol car. It's cheaper to maintain, it's cheaper to acquire, it's more reliable then a diesel.
Have some calculations on a sheet of paper to see how much you will "save" buying a diesel.
Please explain, in my experience my 2 diesels, (mercedes and bmw) were both cheaper to service than the golf, this was mainly due to the extended service intervals for the diesels.
Next up in Norway tax for diesel vehicles is cheaper than tax for petrol vehicles, resale values are also better, ditto for the UK where vehicle tax is based on co2 emissions and diesel sales outweigh those of petrol vehicles.
Quoting Ppcd (Reply 17): it's more reliable then a diesel.
MrChips From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 911 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 850 times:
Since I am a sucker for the BMW 1-Series, that would be my recommendation. If you're willing to give up a bit of practicality, get a 123d coupe. If it were available in North America, it's the car I would buy above all others.
Since it isn't available here, I had to settle for a 135i.
MCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8552 posts, RR: 14 Reply 20, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 844 times:
Go for the Volkswagon TDI. Reliable plus efficient plus sporty= fun car to drive.
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