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Middle-East Peace Settlement - The Pathetic Truth  
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2348 times:

Is this REALLY the whole of the 'peace proposals' that Condi Rice and Blair and all the others have been working on for years?

The Palestinians give up all the land occupied by Israel since 1967, and all claims to Jerusalem, in exchange for an area of useless, waterless desert and a road linking the West Bank and Gaza? AND agree to do without armed forces.......?

(Excerpts)

"The Olmert government has proposed a peace deal whereby Israel would keep West Bank settlement blocks and the Palestinians get Negev land in compensation.

"Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, who is trying to hammer out an accord before he leaves office, presented Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas with his ideas this week, Haaretz reported Tuesday.

"Under the proposal, which was leaked to the newspaper, Israel would keep West Bank settlement blocs, turning the security fence into a border and evacuating settlers east of it. For what would be, effectively, an annexation of 7 percent of West Bank land, Israel would allow for a parcel of Negev land to be annexed to the Gaza Strip.

"The Negev land would be equivalent to 5.5 percent of West Bank land but the shortfall would be made up for by a road connecting Gaza and the West Bank, allowing for free Palestinian passage between the territories.

---------------

"Both sides want sovereignty in Jerusalem, which Israel has vowed to keep as its undivided capital. According to Haaretz, Olmert and Abbas agreed to defer the Jerusalem issue to future negotiations.

--------------

"Israel has also demanded that the future Palestinian state be demilitarized, while the Palestinians want an armed force capable of defending against "outside threats," Haaretz reported."


http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/breaking/109885.html

What utterly-pathetic proposals. The proverbial 'snowball in Hell' had a much better chance of survival than this incredibly-stupid nonsense has.......

Is this the best that the various parties can come up with, after all the years of conflict and bloodshed? It has zero chance of solving the problem.

[Edited 2008-08-12 06:16:34]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
85 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2343 times:

Your problem is, you're taking this at face value. Aren't you the fellow who keeps telling everyone that the Hamas program: "kill all the Jews and bulldoze them into the sea!" isn't to be taken literally?

User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 2, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2333 times:

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 1):
Aren't you the fellow who keeps telling everyone that the Hamas program: "kill all the Jews and bulldoze them into the sea!" isn't to be taken literally?

Don't recall ever saying anything like that, Dougloid. I have no higher opinion of Hamas than I used to have of the Irgun and the Stern Gang.

Mind you, I heard about the Zionist terror groups first. As a small child, hearing that a neighbour of mine couldn't come out to play because he had to go to the memorial service for his elder brother, who'd been killed in the King David Hotel.......

[Edited 2008-08-12 06:27:27]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 3, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2320 times:

Doug- with all due respect for your comment-but this proposal values the life-conditions of Palestinians like less than a piece of dog-shit for the Israelis ..
They are a "quantité négligeable" and basically a nuisance -like rats-that should be treated alike.
Even if it is a "proposal" ,it set's the venue for the talks.
Who seeds wind will earn storm-that is an old saying but is still valid today.
Decent living conditions,an economic roadmap that is genuingly opening the road for self-determination without constantly depending on help from abroad,acces to water and infrastructures like airport and harbour..anything less will re-comfort Hamas in their ultimate requests and hate-propaganda.



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2294 times:

You guys are confusing posturing with reality. Don't make bricks without straw, fellows.

One need only attend a marketplace in the middle east or anywhere else to see what haggling is all about. (Of course you don't get to do this in the average supermarket these days and the auto dealers would like to do away with it as well, but when the market is as it is today you can sure haggle for a pickup) You start by making outrageous demands that nobody in their right mind would agree to. The idea is that you arrive at the mean workable solution through horse trading.

I guess it worked on you.

Consider the Cherokee nation, driven out of their homes and hounded across the country to a piece of land in Oklahoma that nobody could possibly want, right? Except that it sat on some of the largest oil reserves anyone had seen up to that time.


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 5, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2285 times:

Good point, Beaucaire.

About 'reaping the whirlwind,' interesting where the quotation comes from. As it happens, it's the Old Testament (Hosea); the very same source that the Zionists claim their inspiration from:-

"8:3 Israel hath cast off the thing that is good: the enemy shall pursue him.
8:4 They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not: of their silver and their gold have they made them idols, that they may be cut off.
8:5 Thy calf, O Samaria, hath cast thee off; mine anger is kindled against them: how long will it be ere they attain to innocency?
8:6 For from Israel was it also: the workman made it; therefore it is not God: but the calf of Samaria shall be broken in pieces.
8:7 For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind: it hath no stalk: the bud shall yield no meal: if so be it yield, the strangers shall swallow it up.
8:8 Israel is swallowed up: now shall they be among the Gentiles as a vessel wherein is no pleasure."


http://www.genesis.net.au/~bible/kjv/hosea/

"...the workman made it; therefore it is not God:"

Wise Jesuit teacher of mine once said, "You can 'prove' almost anything from the Bible. But, by the same token, just by reading on, you can just as easily DISPROVE it!'

The above quotation seems to underline his point........



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 6, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2281 times:



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 4):
The idea is that you arrive at the mean workable solution through horse trading.

Cheers, Dougloid, getting down to brass tacks. We've both made a living out of 'negotiating on behalf of clients' in our time.

If the Palestinians were your client, and they'd received an offer like this - how would you advise them to respond?



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 2205 times:



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 6):
If the Palestinians were your client, and they'd received an offer like this - how would you advise them to respond?

I'd have them leave unmarked knapsacks with oranges in them all over Israel and fill their Kasaams with hard candies and party favors. Spread consternation and all that.


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 8, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2156 times:



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 7):
I'd have them leave unmarked knapsacks with oranges in them all over Israel and fill their Kasaams with hard candies and party favors.

That worries me a little, Dougloid.

I 'know' you well enough to realise that you don't lack compassion, nor are you incapable of 'lateral thinking.'

Do you REALLY not give a damn about what happens to the Palestinians?

A few facts in this whole monumental mess stand out. The Palestinians were 'rescued' from a Turkish dictatorship by the British in 1917 - thereafter, they spent twenty-plus years under a British-administered League of Nations 'Mandate.'

Following that, they were dispossessed of all their property rights, and driven out of their homes, by Israeli military force and the intervention of the United Nations ( a body that had no legal significance whatever at the time).

We're both, in our way, 'creatures of the law.' And therefore we both know that the foundation of the law is 'equity.'

Can you possibly believe, in equity, that the Jewish race has a more valid claim to the territory of Palestine than the people who have lived in and cultivated the place for well over 1,000 years?



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2152 times:



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 8):
Can you possibly believe, in equity, that the Jewish race has a more valid claim to the territory of Palestine than the people who have lived in and cultivated the place for well over 1,000 years?

1. Judaism is a religion, not a race.
2. Yes, both peoples have an eqal claim to the land.
3. "Cultivated" for 1,000 years? That is a bit of a stretch.

Interesting we've gone almost two weeks without a mid-east conflict thread.


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 10, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2144 times:



Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 9):
. Yes, both peoples have an eqal claim to the land.

What evidence do you base that claim on, Dtwclipper?



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 11, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2130 times:



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 4):
Consider the Cherokee nation, driven out of their homes and hounded across the country to a piece of land in Oklahoma that nobody could possibly want, right? Except that it sat on some of the largest oil reserves anyone had seen up to that time.

Nice diversion, now tell me how many of the Cherokee got beneficial ownership of that oil. Are we also to assume that you think that the Palestinians will have the Georgia - Missouri - Arkansas - Oklahoma stages, presumably with two or three still to come? It also might presage another "run" might it not?

And just in case anyone thinks that the Negev will contain oil, there is a small oilfield in the south of the Egyptian part, but drilling suggests there will be no oil found further north.


User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 2105 times:



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 8):
Do you REALLY not give a damn about what happens to the Palestinians?

Oh, I do, but they're their own worst enemies for the most part and they probably do not think a westerner much less a bitter old fart of a yanqui and a broken down mechanic and wordsmith has much to offer that they'd want to hear.

I'm thinking if people in the region spent more time on the useful arts and less on fighting their fathers' and grandfather's interminable religious wars the world be a better place for all of us.


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 13, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2066 times:



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 12):
I'm thinking if people in the region spent more time on the useful arts and less on fighting their fathers' and grandfather's interminable religious wars the world be a better place for all of us.

Most of us can drink to that, although I am not 100% sure you know exactly what you have suggested there???????????


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 14, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2040 times:

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 9):
1. Judaism is a religion, not a race.

That makes things worse, not better, Dtwclipper. The whole Zionist creed is that (according to what whoever wrote the Book of Moses said God said to Abraham) God granted the 'Jews' and their descendants sole rights of residence in the Holy Land. Are you now saying that a Russian or an American who happens to convert to Judaism is immediately entitled to live in Israel; whereas a Palestinian whose family lived in the place for 2,000 years, and owns property there, does not?

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 9):
2. Yes, both peoples have an eqal claim to the land.

See above. The whole Zionist claim is based on a few lines (of dubious provenance) in the Old Testament. The one most often quoted is attributed to the Almighty, and reads, "And I will set thy bounds from the Red sea even unto the sea of the Philistines, and from the desert unto the river: for I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand; and thou shalt drive them out before thee." The mere fact that the word 'Philistine' (derived from 'Philistia,' the name that the Romans gave to the area after they captured it in about 67BC) is used pretty well proves that the passage was written not in Biblical times but between say 67BC and 50AD at the earliest.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 9):
3. "Cultivated" for 1,000 years? That is a bit of a stretch.

I think that maybe a lot of people still think that, until 1918, 'Arabs' were just nomadic guys in flowing robes who rode camels around in the desert. I fancy that that's the mental picture that Balfour had. And maybe the UN in the 1940s as well; which made it easy for them to give away the Palestinians' land to the Zionists. But in fact, the Palestinians were fishermen and farmers all through. The Old Testament alone largely proves that the true 'nomads' - the desert-hardened 'Children of Israel') invaded them and made every effort to drive them out of their ancestral homeland in the first place.

All because 'God' (or rather Moses) told them that that was what He wanted them to do.....

Sorry mate, the most cursory examination of the 'evidence' - not that there's much of it - proves that the whole Zionist 'Biblical claim' stuff is the purest nonsense.

[Edited 2008-08-14 05:22:44]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 15, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2027 times:

NAV20- it's a relative useless exercise to try to convince the un-convincables- the Jewish historical claim is so very much cemented in the sub-conciousness of their believers, that they just never ever will accept the slightest idea that somebody else dared to cultivate land in Palestine before they arrived.
I'm 100% non-religious but accept the importance of the religious impact.I don't give more rights to any religion over another one,because it's all subjective manipulation geared to justify power,land,money and -most important of all- superiority over another inferior race.
All Middle East conflicts are tied to religion ( not even oil..) and the resulting territorial claims,with a vague justification in the Bible,Coran or Torah rolls have and still will cost the lives of millions.

[Edited 2008-08-14 06:00:08]


Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2012 times:



Quoting Baroque (Reply 13):
Most of us can drink to that, although I am not 100% sure you know exactly what you have suggested there???????????

I'm quite serious. When my son went off to war in A-stan, I told him that I was very proud of him because the world had an oversupply of gunslingers but not nearly enough people engaged in the useful arts, the highest of which is healing. When the young people tell their fathers in the words of Phil Ochs "I ain't marchin' any more" and turn their attention away from warfare to perfecting useful arts-to become garage mechanics, masons, carpenters, farmers, waitresses, nurses, electricians, well drillers, shopkeepers, and engineers-then we will have peace.

It is said that idle hands are the devil's workshop and it has never been more true than on the mean streets of Gaza. How that came to be and who's to blame is a sucker's game, akin to pin the tail on the donkey. Blame doesn't repair or build anything-it merely allows the blamer to say "fuck it-I'm justified in sitting on my ass." Blame is a cop-out, as we used to say in the sixties. It's also cheaper than crack and far more addictive.

It's no mystery that Christ was first a healer of the sick and a woodworker.....parenthetically, one is used to seeing hideous representations of Himself in numerous and diverse houses of worship, but by far the best representation of Christ I ever saw was in the church in Rochester New York where my grandson was baptised. It was a simple wooden sculpture of Christ with the tools of his carpentry trade-a mallet and a chisel.


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 17, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2006 times:



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 16):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 13):
Most of us can drink to that, although I am not 100% sure you know exactly what you have suggested there???????????

I'm quite serious. When my son went off to war in A-stan, I told him that I was very proud of him because the world had an oversupply of gunslingers but not nearly enough people engaged in the useful arts, the highest of which is healing.

Just that while I am sure if left to their own devices, the Palestinians would have had a goodly few squabbles, the main game there is as Nav just explained in reply 14 a quarrel between groups, now marked by religion more than original ethnicity.

Although there is another caveat in that as has been discussed on a.net before, just how much pre Roman DNA is in the Zionists who moved back in during the 20th century is, at best, a mystery.

Given the distribution of the DNA of Genghis Khan, it could even be there is more of his DNA in modern Israel than of pre Roman Israel there.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 14):
And maybe the UN in the 1940s as well; which made it easy for them to give away the Palestinians' land to the Zionists.

To be fair to them, Nav, their committee did make a recommendation that differs "a bit" from the Olmert effort!!
http://mideastweb.org/un_palestine_partition_map_1947.htm
But, yes, it seems to have been very easy to give away the land that belonged to Palestinians and had done for generations.


User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2002 times:

Now the Israelis have decided to install a major crack-down on - - - Arabic Harry Potter books..
Since they have been printed in Syria and de-facto Israel and Syria are still in a state of war-no arab books from Syria..
While serious talks between both countries take place in Turkey,they can't even decide on allowing children's books being imported ..

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5ibXKUh2EIux3bSS6Y00PZvUcQ-0Q



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineAvi From Israel, joined Sep 2001, 943 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2001 times:



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 8):
Can you possibly believe, in equity, that the Jewish race has a more valid claim to the territory of Palestine than the people who have lived in and cultivated the place for well over 1,000 years?

Our history in general and in this area in particular goes far more than 1,000 years back (try 5,000 years).

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 10):
What evidence do you base that claim on, Dtwclipper?

How about history or archeology (forget the bible, I'm not saying a word about it)?
Did you ever read a history book about this area that didn't start describing things that happened here only since 1,000-1,500 years ago but "a little bit" further back?

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 14):
The whole Zionist claim is based on a few lines (of dubious provenance) in the Old Testament...

What a sad nonsense.



Long live the B747
User currently offlineQR332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1976 times:



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 1):
Your problem is, you're taking this at face value.

This isn't a few cryptic lines in a holy book, this is a proposal for a peace settlement. What, exactly, are we supposed to see it as?

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 4):
You guys are confusing posturing with reality. Don't make bricks without straw, fellows.

Posturing? The Israelis are yet, in 60 years, to do more than "posture". They are dead serious about this deal.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 4):
One need only attend a marketplace in the middle east or anywhere else to see what haggling is all about. (Of course you don't get to do this in the average supermarket these days and the auto dealers would like to do away with it as well, but when the market is as it is today you can sure haggle for a pickup)

This isn't an old pickup. This is the future of a population, determining the resources available to them, and ensuring that they get the deal that they deserve under international law. Giving us what is pretty much a desert state riddled with Israeli settlements is not haggling, it is exactly what the Israelis want. As if what they took from us in 1948 isn't enough, they won't even leave us the little land we have left.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 4):
You start by making outrageous demands that nobody in their right mind would agree to. The idea is that you arrive at the mean workable solution through horse trading.

I guess it worked on you.

With the kind of posturing you talk about, you move forward, not backwards. In 60 years, we are still yet to see a single realistic deal from the Israelis. The Palestinains have outlined their demands: a state on 1967 borders, East Jerusalem and a solution for the 6 million Palestinian refugees still in refugee camps 60 years on.

Each time, we get a worse deal than the last. This latest one is still just as pathetic as the rest.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 9):
2. Yes, both peoples have an eqal claim to the land.

Really? A European immigrant whose ancestors had been living in Europe for hundreds of year and who came to Palestine in the 1930s has more of a claim than someone who, like his ancestors for over a thousand years, had actually been living there?

Many populations have histories in lands different from where they live today. Just because they lived there 2,000 years ago does not give them even the slightest right to the land.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 9):
3. "Cultivated" for 1,000 years? That is a bit of a stretch.

No, it isn't. There have always traditionally been urban, bedouin and peasant Arabs. The urban Arabs lived in Jaffa, Acre, Tiberias, Nablus, Jerusalem, Gaza, etc, cities which have existed for over a thousand years. The peasants lived in the hundreds of villages that dot Palestine, and cultivated the land there - hundreds of these villages were destroyed in '48. The bedouin inhabited the Naqab desert of southern Palestine.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 12):
Oh, I do, but they're their own worst enemies for the most part and they probably do not think a westerner much less a bitter old fart of a yanqui and a broken down mechanic and wordsmith has much to offer that they'd want to hear.

I'm thinking if people in the region spent more time on the useful arts and less on fighting their fathers' and grandfather's interminable religious wars the world be a better place for all of us.

First of all, yes, there is inter-fighting, but the Palestinians are hardly "their own worst enemies". The population as a whole is not divided, be it on political, religious, or racial lines.

Secondly, no, they probably wouldn't give a damn about what you have to say. That's not because your a Westerner - it is because you have no way of knowing the hardships of their daily lives and the hell they have to go through. Until you have actually experienced that, then you are in no position to offer them and kind of opinion on what they should and shouldn't do.

Thirdly, your last statement shows how disconnected you are from the reality of this conflict. This is not a religious war. This has fuck all to do with us being Muslim and them being Jewish. This has everything to do with deals such as the one above, denying Palestinians the right to live as human beings, and forcing Palestinians in the territories to live like animals.

This is not our fathers' and grandfathers' conflict. This is our conflict through and through. For Palestinians outside Palestine like me, it is our conflict because we have been denied the right to grow up in our own country, and we are the only ones who can do anything to help the millions of Palestinian refugees still sitting in refugee camps with no hope through charity and continually reminding a world that has forgotten them that they still exist.

As for Palestinians living in the territories, I don't think I need to explain much about why this is their and not their father's conflict. As long as they do not have their own state and the IDF is still outside their own house, it is 100% their conlfict. As long as they have to pass through the 200+ checkpoints in the West Bank to get anywhere and be humiliated and intimidated there, this is their conflict. As long as what is left of their country is stolen to make way for settlements, this is their goddamn conflict.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 16):
and turn their attention away from warfare to perfecting useful arts-to become garage mechanics, masons, carpenters, farmers, waitresses, nurses, electricians, well drillers, shopkeepers, and engineers-then we will have peace.

Fair point... except that unemployment in the territories is huge. There is no economy, and as a result no jobs - which means they have no opportunities to do what you have written above. This however refers to Palestinians. Arabs as a whole are all quite involved with "useful arts".

Also, Palestinians hardly receive a good education thanks to Israel - universities and schools are closed for extended periods without any good reason, and when you spend half the year either under curfew or with your university shut down, it is hard to get a proper education which would allow you to undertake activities such as those you listed.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 16):
It is said that idle hands are the devil's workshop and it has never been more true than on the mean streets of Gaza. How that came to be and who's to blame is a sucker's game, akin to pin the tail on the donkey. Blame doesn't repair or build anything-it merely allows the blamer to say "fuck it-I'm justified in sitting on my ass." Blame is a cop-out, as we used to say in the sixties. It's also cheaper than crack and far more addictive.

See above.

Quoting Avi (Reply 19):
Our history in general and in this area in particular goes far more than 1,000 years back (try 5,000 years).

And? You haven't been there for how long now? How does you having a 5,000 year history justify a thing?

Quoting Avi (Reply 19):
How about history or archeology (forget the bible, I'm not saying a word about it)?
Did you ever read a history book about this area that didn't start describing things that happened here only since 1,000-1,500 years ago but "a little bit" further back?

Again, that is completely irrelevant. What happened 5,000 years ago doesn't matter - because if it did, countries such as Australia, the USA, Canada, New Zealand, etc would have no basis for existing.

Your argument is one that is flawed and one which many Zionists love to use. And it is bullshit.

Quoting Avi (Reply 19):
What a sad nonsense.

The ideology of Zionism is what is nonsense. Thinking you have a right to a land and the right to uproot and ethnically cleanse its people because your ancestors were there 2,000 years ago is what is nonsense. What is nonsense is treating Palestinians like they are animals 60 years on, and denying them the little land they have left.

But, it is not surprising at all. Land grab characterised Israel from the moment it was created - it was the basis of its creation, it was the basis of taking the Golan Heights, the basis of taking Jerusalem and riddling the occupied territories with settlements, and obviously continues to be the basis of Israel's foreign policy today. It is the reason 800,000 were removed from Palestine in 1948, either directly or through fear and intimidation.

If Israel actually gave a damn about human life and had respect for international law, its short history would be very different. As would its stance today.


User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1972 times:



Quoting QR332 (Reply 20):
First of all, yes, there is inter-fighting, but the Palestinians are hardly "their own worst enemies".

Why am I so not surprised that you'd take this line? Of course they're their own worst enemies. What the fuck have they managed to accomplish in the last fifty years besides lose a number of wars and destroy any semblance of an economy and a working state? If that's a model of probity, endeavor and success, I'm Michael Jackson.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 20):
Quoting Avi (Reply 19):
Our history in general and in this area in particular goes far more than 1,000 years back (try 5,000 years).

And? You haven't been there for how long now? How does you having a 5,000 year history justify a thing?

You seem to think that your territorial claims should be based on tenure. You live by that sword and you die by it.

If you think that the claims of the Jews are worthless and of no consequence, remove the stones of their temple from underneath your mosque, and erase Masada if you can.


User currently offlineQR332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1966 times:



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 21):
Why am I so not surprised that you'd take this line? Of course they're their own worst enemies. What the fuck have they managed to accomplish in the last fifty years besides lose a number of wars and destroy any semblance of an economy and a working state? If that's a model of probity, endeavor and success, I'm Michael Jackson.

You have got to be fucking kidding me! It is a bit difficult to build an economy when you have a foreign country occupying you for 60 years, believe it or not. And it is difficult to win a war when you have no army and when your enemy is backed by the world's most powerful countries. You have just proved to me that you know nothing about the situation of the Palestinians, which is why you can't even begin to grasp the situation as a whole.

It is useless trying to explain anything to you as to why the Palestinians are in this situation today. But thank you for proving that you really are living in a bubble.

And if you seriously think that the Palestinians are in the situation they are in today because of their own actions, then my God your detached from reality...

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 21):
You seem to think that your territorial claims should be based on tenure. You live by that sword and you die by it.

If you think that the claims of the Jews are worthless and of no consequence, remove the stones of their temple from underneath your mosque, and erase Masada if you can.

Our territorial claims are based on the fact that we've been there for over a thousand years and the fact that 800,000 Palestinians were removed to make space for a bunch of immigrants. They are not religious, have nothing to do with a holy book or a 2,000 year old temple, they are very real.

It doesn't matter if they were there 2,000 years ago. And like I said, if you are such a supporter of a people living in a land that was there thousands of years ago, pack your bags and get the hell out of America. Your ancestors certainly weren't there 2,000 years ago.


User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 23, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 1928 times:

Personally, I believe the Jews and Arabs in Palestine should sit together and, instead of going their separate ways in a successful treaty, join forces to make Palestine a better place for everyone. The Holy Land is holy to Muslims, Jews and Christians. Why not set any differences aside to make this union possible?

My proposal would be to install what I'd call the Federal Republic of Palestine. A loose federal union of the regions administered by Israel and the Palestine Authority, which means that those regions can make determinations on their own, but remain united in things such as foreign and overall domestic policy. It would have to be a form of government like in Germany, parliamentary, with regional having their own say in domestic regional matters, but still united in what concerns everyone living in Palestine, and with everyone sharing the resources of the region and even it's big tourist potential in areas such as the holocaust memorial of Yad Vashem, the Dead Sea, the Church of Nativity, Jerusalem with landmarks such as the Wailing Wall and the Al-Aqsa Mosque, etc.

That being said, I know my proposal is a pipedream, because most of the Israelis in power will insist on the Zionist principal that this is the land for the chosen people, while the Arabs, feeling captured by the Israelis, will continue to fight against these principles of Zionism trying to drive them away, even if it means supporting terrorist organisations such as Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. A settlement needs to come, and it needs to come now, and we also need to get the big Arab countries, along with the Western countries involved, because this conflict concerns everyone, not just those living there. The damage is unfortunately done, so what a true settlement would do is basically also set the basis for reconciliation between Jews and Arabs, but I doubt that the people in the Knesset will take the necessary measures to set those basis. It's sad that Yitzak Rabin was murdered, because he was the person who actually brought peace to the region, who actually got the job done in his second term, but once he was killed, everything went downhill again.


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 24, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 1905 times:



Quoting Avi (Reply 19):
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 14):
The whole Zionist claim is based on a few lines (of dubious provenance) in the Old Testament...

What a sad nonsense.

Avi, in the first place, if there is other evidence of the Zionist belief - that God promised the Jews exclusive possession of the Holy Land - then please provide some information on it.

And while you're at it, please settle this ethnicity issue once and for all. Did the Almighty give the land to ethnic Jews (presumably descended from the original inhabitants) or to anyone who happens to have had a Jewish grandmother in the last couple of generations?

Quoting Avi (Reply 19):
What a sad nonsense.

Personally, yes I think so too. But this crazy (and, to my mind, utterly-implausible) Zionist dream is still costing lives, and causing untold misery.



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
25 Post contains links NAV20 : Agree, LTU932. That was exactly what the UN approved in 1948, together with an International Zone covering Jerusalem. Among other things, for precise
26 Dougloid : You're so busy listening to the static between your ears you aren't listening, friend. What I said was if you are using tenure to determine ownership
27 Post contains links NAV20 : Don't you have the doctrine of 'adverse possession' in the USA, Dougloid? Basically it says that if you have occupied land openly for a substantial p
28 Baroque : I think he was saying that continuous occupation for over a thousand years was different to not having been there for over two thousand years. You ap
29 QR332 : I'm the one with static between my ears? They were there 2,000 years ago but they stopped living in Palestine - Jews mainly inhabited Europe for the
30 NAV20 : I keep asking admirers of present-day Israel for the evidence on which they base their claim that the land is Israel's. Personally, as I've said, all
31 JM017 : And the fact that Arabs rejected partition, all efforts for peace, and started three wars in subsequent years makes no never mind to you? It is misle
32 Baroque : If he/she was as wise as is supposed, he would send down another ****** tablet with I DO NOT TAKE SIDES, clearly written in as many languages as he/s
33 JM017 : That would have solved everything. S/He is probably so distressed at the incredible number of people throughout history who claim to speak in His or
34 QR332 : Why in the world would the Arabs accept partition? What population in its right mind would agree to giving half of its land away to immigrants who ha
35 Par13del : Are these not one and the same thing, if it was unacceptable in 1948 what has changed to make it acceptable today? Iraq, Iran, Saudia Arabia, Kuwait
36 A380US : DONT GIVE ME THIS SH*T Just so you know when they were first offered the land the palestinians didnt want it and all the Jews were really offered was
37 QR332 : The fact that 60 years have passed and generations of Israelis have been born in Israel today? It would be entirely unrealistic to actually demand Pa
38 NAV20 : A380US, I see from your profile that you live in New York. Assuming that that's New York City, the British owned New York until 1783, and the Dutch be
39 Par13del : Everyone knows that those proposals will never be taken, why have a discussion on something we both know will not happen, what could be speculated ab
40 A380US : Did I bring in that problem??? Well just for those who do read this and want to know what happened. Just a small outline The Irgun which was a Milita
41 QR332 : My point is that if the Israelis seriously want to make peace, they would make a serious offer - not a one-sided offer which completely excludes two
42 A380US : Only by the sides in Gaza not the jews. The jews kill civilians there because thats the only way to stop Hamas who hides behind civilians for that sp
43 QR332 : Go tell that to the mother of the 3 month old baby who died only a few months back following the explosion of a shell opposite where she lived. Go te
44 JM017 : You're right about the Suez Crisis. Ishould point out that I am not defending these actions. But the 1967 war was justified by Egypt blocking the Str
45 Post contains links NAV20 : With 91 killed and 40 seriously injured, the King David ranks as high (or, rather, as low) as any of those. Many of the dead were civilans frequentin
46 Baroque : Perhaps now you have revised the King David atrocity to your satisfaction, you will present your version of the hanging of the sergeants (do not forg
47 Post contains links and images QR332 : Again, Egypt's actions were in response to constant Israeli incursions into Syrian territory. Like I said, the Egyptians were not ready for a full-sc
48 Baroque : The nearest analogies are probably East Timor and West Papua except that the population movements were part of the Transmigrasi policies from governm
49 NAV20 : In my opinion, you've got it dead rght, QR332. Also IMO, the problem only arises because there are enough Jewish voters in New York State, California
50 JM017 : The expulsions went both ways. These incursions into each other's countries went on regularly before and after 1949. Both sides engaged in this activ
51 QR332 : We Palestinians had nothing to do with it. What Yemen or whoever did had nothing to do with us. Plus, they occurred after and in response to the expu
52 Post contains links Dtwclipper : This is simply not true. You're not going to like the source, but hey I don't always like your sources either. A brief history: When the Jews of Medi
53 JM017 : Thanks for your reference. I was going to bring up historical events to contradict the comments about anti-semitism in Palestine and territories unde
54 LTU932 : A land which the then German Empire acquired through the Franco-Prussian war of 1870, which also ended in King Wilhelm of Prussia being proclamated a
55 Baroque : To add to that, it was not usually the fashion to ethnically cleanse any territories "reallocated". I hope it has not escaped your notice that the Pa
56 QR332 : I'm not going to go through your post bit by bit Dtwclipper, and I still stand by my statement. There are two sides to every story, and while i'm sur
57 NAV20 : Oh Lord, Dtwclipper - you can prove anything by referring to the mythology of ancient, savage times; try Numbers 31.6 onwards, for example:- "31:6 An
58 Dtwclipper : What you want to believe and what is true are two different things, I guess that is why you will never understand how history works.
59 TodaReisinger : "Just because they lived there 2,000 years ago does not give them even the slightest right to the land." Every time I read a thread regarding the ME c
60 NAV20 : Couldn't agree more, Dtwclipper. That's what the study of history is all about. So, in the particular case of the account of the Midian massacre in t
61 Post contains links QR332 : I agree... what you want to believe and what is true are definitely two different things. And if you look above, I gave you a far more accurate view
62 Dtwclipper : Agreed. People see history as they choose. I think at this point before we go in an even wider circle we should agree to disagree and move on. Neithe
63 Baroque : So after the Hittites have been restored to their rightful place, looks as if we are going to have to insert the Midians. Keep this research up Nav a
64 NAV20 : Reckon it's a fair question, Dtwclipper. After all, the whole Jewish claim to the Holy Land is based on a couple of fragmentary references in the Old
65 Post contains links Dtwclipper : And thousands of years archaeological evidence, or does that not count? Please don't invite me to that. I'll be going here today: http://www.freep.co
66 Post contains images Dougloid : Hardly. As I said to the brother, if you're going to stand on tenure you're always going to lose, because somebody was always there before you and al
67 NAV20 : I've asked before about 'evidence,' Dtwclipper. If you're now conceding that there is no validity in the mythological Biblical rubbish (which is prog
68 Post contains links Dtwclipper : http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/History/Ea...contents+-+Archeological+Sites.htm http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Archaeology/archtoc.html http:/
69 TodaReisinger : "Really? Fine me one instance of this in this thread. I clearly stated that Israel does not have a right to exist, and my main reason for this is beca
70 Dougloid : And there's this, which all the usual suspects insist should not be taken seriously: "Oh. you know, those Hamas fellows, they're always quick with th
71 Baroque : TodaR if you do not use the normal quotation conventions, or write posts that stand entirely independently, I for one, have not a ghost of a chance t
72 JM017 : Believe me, it would not be the first time a world leader has focused attention outside of their borders for the sole purpose of directing their atte
73 NAV20 : Misunderstanding, Dtwclipper. I wasn't asking for evidence that the Jews were there (along with lots of other people, including Christians in due cou
74 Baroque : Or, indeed, if there was a record of exclusive occupancy?
75 Dtwclipper : I realize that the two of you are trying to be very, very clever and bait me into a trap, but who said anything about "exclusive occpancy"?
76 NAV20 : The Zionists, and the current Israeli Government. If I was say a Latvian who'd had a Jewish grandmother, I could apply to emigrate to Israel tomorrow
77 Baroque : Any trap is not of my making. The case for the Zionists removing the Palestinians is that they were there until the Romans kicked them out. Most arch
78 Dtwclipper : You two spew such bullshit, over and over again. It's that old adage that you two love...."if you lie enough, people will believe it" and that is wha
79 Post contains links NAV20 : 'Google is your friend,' Dtwclipper. What I said is exactly correct:- "Israel Imposes 'Racist' Marriage Law Palestinian-Israeli couples will be force
80 Post contains links Baroque : Nice rounded argument as you might say mate. Is your motto "never present a well-argued case when a few insults will suffice"? Then scream to high he
81 Post contains links Dougloid : It's a security measure. http://www.unitedjerusalem.com/index2.asp?id=466390&Date=7/19/2004
82 TodaReisinger : Each and every country is free to set its own criterias for all matters related to immigration... No country would be forced to accept you as a citiz
83 Dougloid : To add to that, one might speculate as to the reasons why this law came to be in the first place (giant racist plot? conspiracy to strip poor village
84 NAV20 : Trouble is, I class myself as an 'ordinary guy' - and 99% of the people I meet are the same. All they want is a fair chance to get a job, make a good
85 Baroque : Not to mention the R-FBs who would like to run things and the R-FBs on the outside who are also trying to run things. However, concentrating of the R
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