Sponsor Message:
Non Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
China: Communist?  
User currently offlineFlynavy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1516 times:

Since, according to some choice members of the forum, I was misinformed that China is a communist country, I decided to start this topic so as to not de-rail another topic currently running.

So, is China a communist country?

Consider:

1. The Communist Party of China, also known as the Chinese Communist Party (CCP), is the founding and ruling political party of China and, ironically, the world's largest political party. The party controls all government apparatus in China.
2. Its paramount position as the supreme political authority in China is guaranteed by China's constitution.

So, pray tell, is my analysis flawed? Where did I go wrong?  Yeah sure

37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26196 posts, RR: 76
Reply 1, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1507 times:

They can call themselves whatever they want, they are definately not a communist state.

They have an authoritarian government with a brutal-capitalist economy with a heavy dose of nationalism.

Nothing like Marx described and nothing like the Paris Commune he based much of his writing on.

If anything, the U.S. is more of a "communist" state than China is.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineBlackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1501 times:

I would probably classify them, modern day, as a fascist dictatorship.

Even though Communism and Fascism are considered opposite on the political spectrum, both of them are dictatorships. So it's possible for the pendulum to swing the opposite way into fascism while a dictatorship to remain (dictatorships often go to great lengths to protect themselves from their own people)


Blackbird


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26196 posts, RR: 76
Reply 3, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1496 times:



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 2):
I would probably classify them, modern day, as a fascist dictatorship.

While China is rife with authoritarianism tied to nationalism, it lacks the idea of a "rebirth" of a failed nation/race to make it a truly fascist regime. I would say that Mao's government was more fascist than today's China, though it also had more communist elements.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21092 posts, RR: 56
Reply 4, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1477 times:



Quoting N1120A (Reply 1):
They can call themselves whatever they want, they are definately not a communist state.

 checkmark  North Korea calls itself "The Democratic People's Republic of Korea", but does anyone really think that the country is at all democratic? Names mean nothing.

China certainly has communist elements to it, but to put them in the same category as North Korea, Cuba or the Soviet Union would be a mistake - there are significant differences between them.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineSKYSERVICE_330 From Canada, joined Sep 2000, 1391 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1469 times:



Quoting N1120A (Reply 1):
They have an authoritarian government with a brutal-capitalist economy with a heavy dose of nationalism.

 checkmark 

From an economic standpoint, I struggle to call it Communism...it is more like centrally controlled capitalism. That said, they have retained many of the authoritarian traits shared by other Communist leaders.


User currently offlineAcheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1529 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1464 times:



Quoting SKYSERVICE_330 (Reply 5):
.it is more like centrally controlled capitalism.

State capitalism.


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26196 posts, RR: 76
Reply 7, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1461 times:



Quoting SKYSERVICE_330 (Reply 5):
That said, they have retained many of the authoritarian traits shared by other Communist leaders.

The issue there is that authoritarianism is incompatible with true communism. The problem is that the key resource in communism is this notion of "power", that is the power each person has as part of the whole. Power acts like money does in capitalism, where shifting it around is what makes the system keep going. The problem is that, much like with capitalism, there is always a concentration of the critical resource that keeps the system going in a small group of people and you never get a "true" system.

What that means is you end up with these authoritarian states that call themselves "communist" and you get massive rich and poor disparities in "capitalist" states.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6661 posts, RR: 35
Reply 8, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1445 times:

Ya’ll can get into a semantic taffy pull all you want over what –ism is most appropriate to describe China.

But they’re not “free” that much is for damn sure.


User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9106 posts, RR: 15
Reply 9, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1401 times:

China is opening up and capitalism is performed in special economic zones. However, overall China is still very communist in many ways, though things are changing

User currently offlineB2443 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 697 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 1366 times:



Quoting SKYSERVICE_330 (Reply 5):
they have retained many of the authoritarian traits shared by other Communist leaders.

"....shared by their OWN imperial emperors" would be a more accurate description. Mao was known for his knowledge of the Chinese history, not for reading the works by Carl Marx or Lenin for that matter. You have to realize 30 years of import of western communism could not have had too much impact on the Chinese society of thousands of years. Mostly they are doing their own things. China was not all that innocent in terms of civil liberties before the communists ( or a bunch of peasants called themselved CCP) took over. Everyone in the west only wants (or be told) to look at the "after" part, thinking every problem in China is caused by the "communists" leadership. That's propaganda, too.

I am glad China has become such a hot topic here...good or bad...People definitely are paying more attention to China now.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13794 posts, RR: 63
Reply 11, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 1355 times:



Quoting B2443 (Reply 10):
China was not all that innocent in terms of civil liberties before the communists ( or a bunch of peasants called themselved CCP) took over. Everyone in the west only wants (or be told) to look at the "after" part, thinking every problem in China is caused by the "communists" leadership. That's propaganda, too.

Actually up to the Chinese revolution of 1949 (the communist takeover), it was quite common to see the town executioner walk through the streets of the town with his execution sword as a constant reminder to obey the authorities. Executions were carried out publically in the streets. And the custom of displaying the condemned with signshanging from their necks stating their crimes also reaches back to imperial times.

Jaan


User currently offlineB2443 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 697 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 1350 times:



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 11):
And the custom of displaying the condemned with signshanging from their necks stating their crimes also reaches back to imperial times.

Basically you could trace all the "freedom"/"brutality" problems back to the imperial times. "Freedom" is truely a western concept and it is no part of the ancient Confucious or Mengzi, Zhuangzi, Laozi philosophies, which basically ruled the Chinese society at all levels dynasty after dynasty. Thinking 30 years of communism has completly wiped out the deep roots of Confucious minds would be ignorant.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13794 posts, RR: 63
Reply 13, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 1333 times:

Quoting B2443 (Reply 12):
Basically you could trace all the "freedom"/"brutality" problems back to the imperial times. "Freedom" is truely a western concept and it is no part of the ancient Confucious or Mengzi, Zhuangzi, Laozi philosophies, which basically ruled the Chinese society at all levels dynasty after dynasty. Thinking 30 years of communism has completly wiped out the deep roots of Confucious minds would be ignorant.

It is still basically the children obey the mother, the mother the father, the father the village headman, the village headman the civil servants and the civil servants whomever is running the government, let it be the emperor or the chairman of the communist party.

China was since millenia ruled centrally (except during the civil war period of the 1920s-1930s, there the emperor was gone without a replacement and the provincial governors set up private armies to grab as much power as possible).

BTW, a good friend of my brother (since elementary school) is a direct direct decendant of Mengzi. His father was one of my professors at university, but is now retired. He was researching and teaching theoretical physics, specialised in elementary particles.

Jan

[Edited 2008-08-16 00:20:15]

User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7386 posts, RR: 51
Reply 14, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 1325 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Oh dear god.
Are we seriously debating this for real?

Quoting N1120A (Reply 1):
They can call themselves whatever they want, they are definately not a communist state.

BS. The Chinese are the very definition of the modern day communist state. It may not be Stalinist, Leninist or any old world-style communism, but it's commuism in an updated style.

Evrything infrasturcture-wise tied to daily living is still governemnt controlled, media, healthcare, etc. They still have political prisoners held captive without being charged. Chinese citizens still have to request perminssion to leave China. The gov't still limits children, only allowing 2 girls per family, up from 1(how nice of them). They can't own any property, they can only lease it from the gov't for 50 or 100 years. Slave labour is still widespread.

You don't have ANY right to say what you want. Most average Chinese don't engage western peple unless they're paid to (for business or public relatons). People still live in fear of being persecuted. There are no elections period, not real ones anyway. Phoney puppets are elected.

And if that's not enough proof, It's run by the CHINESE COMMUNIST PARTY!

The whole image of China is a total sham. They've pulled off a brilliant trick, far better than any other attempt in history. Just like the knockoffs they sell. Indistinguishable to the average person.

It's not authoritarianism, it's not facism, it's communism pure and simple



Made from jets!
User currently offlineFlynavy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1318 times:



Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 14):
Are we seriously debating this for real?

My reaction as well.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13794 posts, RR: 63
Reply 16, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1318 times:



Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 14):
Oh dear god.
Are we seriously debating this for real?

Quoting N1120A (Reply 1):
They can call themselves whatever they want, they are definately not a communist state.

BS. The Chinese are the very definition of the modern day communist state. It may not be Stalinist, Leninist or any old world-style communism, but it's commuism in an updated style.

Evrything infrasturcture-wise tied to daily living is still governemnt controlled, media, healthcare, etc. They still have political prisoners held captive without being charged. Chinese citizens still have to request perminssion to leave China. The gov't still limits children, only allowing 2 girls per family, up from 1(how nice of them). They can't own any property, they can only lease it from the gov't for 50 or 100 years. Slave labour is still widespread.

You don't have ANY right to say what you want. Most average Chinese don't engage western peple unless they're paid to (for business or public relatons). People still live in fear of being persecuted. There are no elections period, not real ones anyway. Phoney puppets are elected.

And if that's not enough proof, It's run by the CHINESE COMMUNIST PARTY!

The whole image of China is a total sham. They've pulled off a brilliant trick, far better than any other attempt in history. Just like the knockoffs they sell. Indistinguishable to the average person.

It's not authoritarianism, it's not facism, it's communism pure and simple

First, healthcare is also government controlled in manycountries, which are not considred communist, like e.g. the UK.

Then, the absence of democracy (real, not fake elections etc.) are just a sign of a dictatoraship, not necessarily communist (or doo you think the elections under Marcos in the Philippines or Pinochet in Chile, who were openly anti-communist, were for real?).
The same applies to political prisoners and slave labour (which was e.g. very common in 19th century capitalism, including the US).

China left the communist theory in practice when they permitted private ownership of businesses and factories (a key doctrine of communist philosophy).

The party kept the name "communist" to appease the proletarian part of the population, but in fact has turned into something like Victorian sweat shop capitalism (e.g. during the 19th and early 20th century many capitalist countries used the military to crush strikes. Unions were banned, just like in China today).

The whole "communist" thing in the name of the ruling party of China reminds me of the "socialist" in the Nazi party's name: just intented to appeal to the workers and to b*llsh*t them, while in reality cooperating with big business.

Jan


User currently offlineFlynavy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1313 times:



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 16):

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, smells like a duck...

...it's frigg'n duck. M'kay?


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13794 posts, RR: 63
Reply 18, posted (5 years 8 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1311 times:



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 17):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 16):

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, smells like a duck...

...it's frigg'n duck. M'kay?

So Pinochet was a communist, same as Galtieri, Marcos etc.?

Read some Marx and other books on communist theory, not just pamphlets by the late senator McCarthy.

Jan


User currently offlineSKYSERVICE_330 From Canada, joined Sep 2000, 1391 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (5 years 8 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1280 times:

Quoting B2443 (Reply 10):
Everyone in the west only wants (or be told) to look at the "after" part, thinking every problem in China is caused by the "communists" leadership. That's propaganda, too.


For many people, an 'enemy' is essential to maintaining a dichotomous world view which makes social and political life simple and easy to understand. Communism was/has been the 'enemy' for the better part of the last decade to the West so it is not surprising that this type of reaction emerges. Communism=bad, therefore, bad things in China=result of communism.

typo.

[Edited 2008-08-16 09:55:52]

User currently offlineSwiftski From Australia, joined Dec 2006, 2701 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (5 years 8 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1273 times:



Quoting United Airline (Reply 9):
China is opening up and capitalism is performed in special economic zones. However, overall China is still very communist in many ways, though things are changing

Agreed.

Quoting Flynavy (Thread starter):
So, pray tell, is my analysis flawed? Where did I go wrong?

You're not wrong.

Where some people go wrong is presuming that censorship = communism.


User currently offlineAcheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1529 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (5 years 8 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 1239 times:



Quoting Flynavy (Reply 17):
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, smells like a duck...

...it's frigg'n duck. M'kay?

That probably works for simplistic minds and black&white-only points of view, but generally, things are way more complicated than that.


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8875 posts, RR: 40
Reply 22, posted (5 years 8 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1227 times:

Quoting Acheron (Reply 6):
State capitalism.

That term is contradictory. A free market simply cannot be "state".

A better term is what we see today under "democratic socialism" in some countries, like Pemex in Mexico, and other state-owned companies.

[Edited 2008-08-16 15:48:21]


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineHuskyAviation From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1152 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (5 years 8 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 1200 times:



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 16):
China left the communist theory in practice when they permitted private ownership of businesses and factories (a key doctrine of communist philosophy).

What you say I believe to be true, but from what I understand, the rural portions of China (where a majority of the population still lives, thus we're talking about 700m+ people), collectivism and communist practices are still very much alive. China is not only the hyper-capitalist special economic zones.


User currently offlineZone1 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1034 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (5 years 8 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1180 times:

After Tienanmen Square the Chinese Authorities realized their days would be numbered if they didn't give something back to the people. They decided to give them economic freedoms over anything. It's basically a modern day "bread and circus" to keep the people of China happy and prevent them from overthrowing the government. With that said, just because you can now run a business in China, doesn't mean it is any less communist than before.


/// U N I T E D
25 Slider : Bingo. The saga of Tiananmen is well chronicled. The party realized they might have a massive revolution, so they threw out some carrots to quiet the
26 B2443 : That explains partially why people "accept" the leadership, contrary to western question of it being "legitimate". Many journalists in the west are t
27 SW733 : Put me down in the list of people who say they are only Communist on paper. I've been to China and when you're there, you certainly can't tell they ar
28 IAirAllie : They are not a pure communist society. Just as the US is not a pure Democracy.
29 N1120A : And that shows you know absolutely nothing about communism.
30 Jetjack74 : Huge difference. NHS is gov't-sponsored collectively by England/Wales, Scotland and Northern Island. There are some aspects of the healtcare system t
31 N1120A : Don't tell that to my socialist friends. So can the state, local and federal governments in the US.
32 B2443 : A foundamental difference between the modern day "communism" and "capitalism", both invented in the west, is the ownership of properties. If you use t
33 MD11Engineer : Same as anti-communist Suharto did in Indonesia. You owned property one of his cronies or his family members fancied, he would just take it. I know s
34 PlaneWasted : A chinese friend to me said that China is an "Evil Capitalism" country. :p But please don't bash China to much. The people is good and have mostly ver
35 B2443 : Now that begs for the question: how was communism came around in Europe in the first place? I would tend to believe "communism" was/is a nature event
36 MD11Engineer : IMO, the various socialist ideologies (from moderate, reform oriented social democracy to hardcore revolutionary Marxism) were responses to a "no hol
37 Flighty : China is busily forging new ground, building a new category of government. Is it communist? Sure. More nationalist however. China does indeed provide
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
US Athlete / Darfur Activist Denied Visa By China posted Wed Aug 6 2008 07:11:06 by Aaron747
China To Censor Internet During Olympic Games posted Tue Jul 29 2008 19:58:38 by National757
China & The Olympic Crackdown posted Fri Jul 18 2008 18:09:09 by QANTAS077
Russia, China Veto UN Sanctions Against Zimbabwe posted Fri Jul 11 2008 17:49:17 by HuskyAviation
Will China Overtake The USA One Day? posted Fri Mar 14 2008 04:58:29 by LHStarAlliance
Shape Of Plugs Used In China? posted Thu Feb 28 2008 04:22:44 by Elite
World's Most Dangerous Hike? Mt. Huashan In China posted Tue Feb 19 2008 22:38:31 by Beefer
Anybody Taken A Train In Western China/Kazakhstan? posted Thu Jan 24 2008 14:50:37 by MaverickM11
Life In Communist East Germany Thread posted Sat Jan 12 2008 21:23:36 by LTU932
Situation Of Human Rights In North East China posted Thu Jan 10 2008 12:27:45 by LHStarAlliance