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A Signpost For End In Iraq  
User currently offlineAllstarflyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (6 years 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1938 times:

The signpost being this - "Iraqi and U.S. negotiators have completed a draft security agreement that would see American troops leave Iraqi cities as early as June 30, Iraqi and American officials told The Associated Press on Wednesday".

Finally - the article shows admission that the security situation has improved there - so maybe our boys (and girls) can start heading home - and w/a lasting sense of achievement.

Here is the CNN article - I checked the MSNBC, CBS and ABC sites, and they all had the AP report on it (BBC didn't have it, at least on their main page).

[Edited 2008-08-20 19:17:13]

26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8840 posts, RR: 24
Reply 1, posted (6 years 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1918 times:

Excellent news. It sets a schedule that still is still flexible to adjust to conditions.

This is a great event. But I'm sure some lefties will try to take credit for it, though they didn't do squat to set the conditions for it to happen.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineStasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3280 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (6 years 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1899 times:

Or a sign that U.S. and allied forces could be dealing with the return of methed-up, crazy, and pissed-off al-Qaeda supported insurgents again....

"All the Americans are doing is paying them (the Sunni insurgents) just to be quiet," said Haider al Abadi, a leading member of Maliki's Dawa political party and the head of the economic and investment committee in the parliament. The Iraqi government, he said, can't "justify paying monthly salaries to people on the grounds that they are ex-insurgents."

"A key pillar of the U.S. strategy to pacify Iraq is in danger of collapsing because the Iraqi government is failing to absorb tens of thousands of former Sunni Muslim insurgents who'd joined U.S.-allied militia groups into the country's security forces.

American officials have credited the militias, known as the Sons of Iraq or Awakening councils, with undercutting support for the group al Qaida in Iraq and bringing peace to large swaths of the country, including Anbar province and parts of Baghdad. Under the program, the United States pays each militia member a stipend of about $300 a month and promised that they'd get jobs with the Iraqi government.

But the Iraqi government, which is led by Shiite Muslims, has brought only a relative handful of the more than 100,000 militia members into the security forces. Now (Iraqi government Shiite) officials are making it clear that they don't intend to include most of the rest (of the Sunnis into the security force)."

Source: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/49538.html



"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21571 posts, RR: 55
Reply 3, posted (6 years 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1870 times:



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
But I'm sure some lefties will try to take credit for it, though they didn't do squat to set the conditions for it to happen.

What could they have done? They don't control the military. You could say that the left pushed Bush to insert some competent commanders (where would we be now if Rumsfeld were still in charge? I'm not sure I want to know) and get away from the disastrous policies and strategies that existed post-war.

The GOP would be trying to take credit as well were the positions reversed. It's what politicians do.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineRJdxer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (6 years 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 1836 times:

That was a damn short 100 years.

User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8840 posts, RR: 24
Reply 5, posted (6 years 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 1827 times:



Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
What could they have done? They don't control the military.

You might recall the words of the governer of Virginia a week or so ago, who tried to claim that Obama was responsible for stopping the violence in Georgia (even though the Russians kept breaking their word for a week after that)



Obama has also tried to claim credit for the decrease in violence in Iraq, which he has done nothing to help.

Just you wait. If Obama becomes president, in a few years, they will announce that the threat of Man-made Global Warming (which was a big hoax from the beginning) has been abbated, thanks to Obama.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineSeb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11598 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted (6 years 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1808 times:

This will be a way for Bush, in his memoirs, to say he was the greatest president of all time because he led a war to it's end. Even though the war was built on lies, cost the United States hundreds of billions of dollars, left us in debt to China and Saudi Arabia and invaded a soverign nation that had absolutly no intention of invading the United States or any ties to terrorists, until after the invasion.

And, about Global Warming:

The ice at the North Pole is melting but it is coming back thanks to a Democratic controlled Congress and the laws and guidelines put in place. Of which, Obama did help.

Now, if we could only get Big Oil/Republicans to understand the oil taken from off-shore will end up on the open market (probably going to China and Russia instead of it all staying in the United States) plans for alternative energy sources can move forward.

Did anyone mention al-Qaida is still running free? Bush did so much to help bring them down, right?



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8840 posts, RR: 24
Reply 7, posted (6 years 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1798 times:



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 6):
The ice at the North Pole is melting but it is coming back thanks to a Democratic controlled Congress and the laws and guidelines put in place.



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 6):
Now, if we could only get Big Oil/Republicans to understand the oil taken from off-shore will end up on the open market (probably going to China and Russia instead of it all staying in the United States)

So? The main issue is cash outflow (trade deficit). If we are selling oil at the same price as we are buying it, it makes no difference.

And over time, we can build/convert refineries to process more of our own oil, which is the current roadblock.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 6):
plans for alternative energy sources can move forward

I have no problem with alternative energy, but guys like Al Gore just aren't realistic.

First off, Airplanes. When you see a workable design for an electrically-powered 737, let me know.

Second, Automobiles. The reason the internal combustion engine is so popular is that it's the most efficient motivator out there. Hybrids are promissing, but I am curious to see the economics of running a 10-year old Prius. We have no experience with older hybrids and their operating costs.

Third, the electric grid. Solar and Wind can never consist of more than 20 or 30% of a power grid, because they are erratic (especially wind). Ask any engineer who works on coordinating power supply and need. In Denmark they are going nuts trying to keep things in balance, with 20% coming from wind, because the generated wattage keeps rising and falling every few seconds. Try driving a car with a throttle that constantly puts on the gas and drops back every few seconds - that's basically what they are doing. And last year they had a whole month where the wind died down and the windmills produced virtually nothing. You cannot efficiently store wind or solar power for periods when it's overcast and still - You still have to have 100% capability from other sources like gas or nuclear for those days.

Sure, I would not mind saving fuel for that 20%, but don't think it will ever get close to 100%, or even 50%.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineRJdxer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (6 years 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1787 times:



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 6):
This will be a way for Bush, in his memoirs, to say he was the greatest president of all time

If you could show a shred of evidence that President Bush is any kind of vain individual that would claim that I'd like to see the link.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 6):
The ice at the North Pole is melting but it is coming back thanks to a Democratic controlled Congress and the laws and guidelines put in place. Of which, Obama did help.

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl  Thanks for my laugh of the day. The democratic party led the Congress for 40 years prior to 1994. Did they worry when back in the 60's and 70's the warning was that we would be heading into an ice age sometime around the turn of the century? Assuming that the global warming taking place is solely attributable to the burning of fossil fuels, which it isn't, since we have had auto's in great numbers since the end of WW2 who is most responsible for doing nothing then?

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 6):
Now, if we could only get Big Oil/Republicans to understand the oil taken from off-shore will end up on the open market (probably going to China and Russia instead of it all staying in the United States) plans for alternative energy sources can move forward.

Even it every last drop is sold in the open market, as it should be, it can not help but bring the price down. Is it the supply, or the demand part that you don't understand? BTW Russia has plenty of oil and gas. Yes, let's not drill and move ahead with engineering alternative fuels, which are for the most part still prohibitively expensive. We wouldn't want to attack the problem from two different fronts. It just confuses our liberal friends.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 6):
Did anyone mention al-Qaida is still running free? Bush did so much to help bring them down, right?

Has AQ mounted an attack against this country outside of the combat zones since 2001? Compare that to the previous 7 years.

As usual, anything to avoid saying that Iraq is nearing a successful conclusion under President Bush and despite the Democratic controlled Congress and a Presidential candidate that were all for defeat of our forces.


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 9, posted (6 years 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1734 times:



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 6):
Did anyone mention al-Qaida is still running free? Bush did so much to help bring them down, right?

But now they have been educated Seb, so no longer will they be waiting for the US to withdraw so they can resume their attacks.

Odd how the most "dangerously lunatic of ideas" just two years ago is now accepted wisdom. Great. Thanks to

Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 2):
StasisLAX

for mentioning that a couple of problems still remain.

Essentially Bush is taking the way out suggested a couple of years ago. Leave the Iraqis to sort out their own problems. Because they certainly are not fixed either now, nor will they be fixed even in 2011 and certainly not in 2009 (withdrawal from the cities).

I wonder how long before the green zone goes under. Pity Neil Davis will not be there to take another seminal moment photograph. Alas a tank shell got him in one of Thailand's many revolts when he was the only casualty.


User currently offlineStuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1957 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1726 times:

The real question is what will we have accomplished. Saddam is out. OK. Other than that? I'd say Iraq is now much more likely to breed terrorists than before. The middle east seems less stable. Many are dead or wounded not to mention psychological trauma. For what? Was it worth it?

User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8840 posts, RR: 24
Reply 11, posted (6 years 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1723 times:



Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 10):
Was it worth it?

We will only know in a few decades' time. History will be the final arbiter.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineRJdxer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (6 years 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1721 times:



Quoting Baroque (Reply 9):
Because they certainly are not fixed either now, nor will they be fixed even in 2011 and certainly not in 2009



Quoting Baroque (Reply 9):
I wonder how long before the green zone goes under

Anti-American hate knows no bounds. Continue to ignore the obvious.


User currently offlineFlexo From St. Helena, joined Mar 2007, 406 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1707 times:

Leaving waaaay too early!!

That is the problem with the US led wars, they always withdraw the troops too early. Their cause is just to say the least but you will never get the locals to accept and work with you if all the time you say: "We'll be gone first chance we get"

Instead you should say: "We're here to stay, either you accept us or go down the drain"


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 14, posted (6 years 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1673 times:



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 12):
Anti-American hate knows no bounds. Continue to ignore the obvious.

Your problem is you mistake realism for hate. Wonder why that could be?

So do tell us what is the obvious. Don't be so Delphic. What might be obvious to you is bleeding obscure to many I suspect.

It Iraq at peace? Is Iraqi oil production rising - not in July it was not? Are the refos coming back? The number of Americans being killed is lower, but that does not mean that this much trumpeted democracy is being any more effective than it has been for about 2 or 3 years.

Now let me know why and how a green zone not defended by the US will survive.

Or are you just going to revert to the line of a month or so ago, if I don't believe it, I will not look at the evidence - or words to that effect?


User currently offlineRJdxer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1666 times:



Quoting Baroque (Reply 14):
Your problem is you mistake realism for hate. Wonder why that could be?

Because it's been obvious for oh so long that no matter what the U.S, does, you'll be against it no matter if it is in Iraq or anywhere else in the world.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 14):
So do tell us what is the obvious.

Iraqi security forces are coming on line quickly enough now that by the end of 2009 all 18 provinces will be under their control. That has been a big part of the U.S. militaries mission over the past year and half. Create a security situation that the Iraqi security force can step into and control. And they have done so several times in the past 6 months but you can choose to ignore that as you usually do.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 14):
It Iraq at peace?

No and it won't be for quite some time. But it wasn't at peace before. Just because a dictator says it is at peace doesn't make it so.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 14):
Is Iraqi oil production rising - not in July it was not?

Unfortunately life doesn't run on a tv schedule like you expect it to. Is the oil from Liberia at the same level month after month when someone decides to have an uprising? How about the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline? Did it allow as much oil to get to market last month as the month before? Things take time but that's not something you seem to take into account.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 14):
Now let me know why and how a green zone not defended by the US will survive.

How did the green line in Lebanon make out?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2007/01/26/AR2007012601496_pf.html

It's all about time. But of course to you if the U.S. is involved then it is just wrong period. As I said, continue to ignore the obvious.


User currently offlineSeb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11598 posts, RR: 15
Reply 16, posted (6 years 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1656 times:



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 8):
If you could show a shred of evidence that President Bush is any kind of vain individual that would claim that I'd like to see the link.

What about his book when he was running for President the first time? The one where he said he wanted to invade Iraq.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 8):
Did they worry when back in the 60's and 70's the warning was that we would be heading into an ice age sometime around the turn of the century?

Ummm... Actually, no one worried about that. Not even the peace loving and Earth friendly Republicans.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 8):
Even it every last drop is sold in the open market, as it should be, it can not help but bring the price down.

I don't think the price would go down. OPEC will, more than likely, decrese production by that amount, keeping the price stable or even increasing it.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 8):
Has AQ mounted an attack against this country outside of the combat zones since 2001? Compare that to the previous 7 years.

Except Bali, London, Madrid and the United States troops that have been killed or maimed. What about Bush's vow to capture Osama bin Laden dead or alive then flip-flopping months later and saying "I don't think about him. I don't know where he is."? What about the constant threat of terror, terrorists, terror threat level and all the fear we have had to endure over the past 7 years?

Who was it that said things to the effect that "If the United States withdraws, the terrorists win"? Does this agreement mean the terrorists have won?



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 17, posted (6 years 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 1651 times:



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 15):

Quoting Baroque (Reply 14):
Your problem is you mistake realism for hate. Wonder why that could be?

Because it's been obvious for oh so long that no matter what the U.S, does, you'll be against it no matter if it is in Iraq or anywhere else in the world.

Paranoia will get you everywhere. No evidence in that post of a mistaken diagnosis. Stop shooting messengers, it is not good in the long run.

You must have missed that I am quite a bit for folk like Arnie and his fuel policies and have pointed out that the good of the US hardly depends upon offshore drilling, unless you happen to be a company with the lease on which at least a medium sized find is made. But go right ahead, I am used to you ignoring fine nuances like that and assuming I hate the US.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 15):
Did it allow as much oil to get to market last month as the month before?

As it happens the BTC pipeline did not allow any oil since 6 August as it blew up, although this is supposed to be a technical explosion (and is reported as restarting this weekend) as opposed to the one on another pipeline earlier in the year which was attributed to Kurds. I suppose that makes me a Turkey hater, and a BP hater too. Gosh, how do I find room?

Liberian oil production was close to identical before during and after its revolutions, ZERO. Your point was?

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 15):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 14):
It Iraq at peace?

No and it won't be for quite some time. But it wasn't at peace before. Just because a dictator says it is at peace doesn't make it so.

Odd that, it seems a majority of Iraqis, while pleased to be rid of Saddam do think life was better under him. And just because Rj says that Iraqis are better off now does not make it so.

Got some stats to compare with now on how many refugees under Saddam, how many hours electricity, how much clean drinking water, sewerage services, access to hospitals, education, ability of women to work, numbers of Christians, doctors, engineers in the country under Saddam?

What on earth the green line in Lebanon has to do with the green zone in Baghdad escapes me, perhaps you can illuminate?

And of course we have had no comment from you in relation to my praising your hero for his proposals about imputation, but then you are too busy imputing other things that are incorrect.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12470 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (6 years 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1637 times:



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
First off, Airplanes. When you see a workable design for an electrically-powered 737, let me know.

Second, Automobiles. The reason the internal combustion engine is so popular is that it's the most efficient motivator out there.

Not quite right. Internal combustion engines are terribly inefficient, around 15% in automobile applications. Most of the energy in petroleum ends up in wasted heat. It's just that the petroleum just has so much energy per unit of weight. That's why it works out great for autos and airplanes. Petroleum also has the advantage that the vehicle gets lighter as you burn off the fuel.

Electric motors are far more efficient (85% or so in automobile applications) but their fuel source has really poor energy per unit weight.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 19, posted (6 years 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1626 times:



Quoting Revelation (Reply 18):
Not quite right. Internal combustion engines are terribly inefficient, around 15% in automobile applications. Most of the energy in petroleum ends up in wasted heat. It's just that the petroleum just has so much energy per unit of weight.

 checkmark  And this is also why liquids from coal are not such a smart idea. Instead of something close to 80% efficiency in the refining process, the thermal efficiency for the F-T synthesis staggers around 30% and then when you take just 15% of that in a petrol engine to do useful work, you do not get a great deal of return for what costs more in the first instance!  eek 

Which is all an excellent reason to be conserving the petroleum reserves that we do have. So it would be really nice if folk would stop blowing up pipelines!!  no 


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 972 posts, RR: 51
Reply 20, posted (6 years 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1618 times:



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 6):
The ice at the North Pole is melting but it is coming back thanks to a Democratic controlled Congress and the laws and guidelines put in place. Of which, Obama did help.

Surely we've found the Troll of The Day?  rotfl 

Quoting Baroque (Reply 19):
And this is also why liquids from coal are not such a smart idea. Instead of something close to 80% efficiency in the refining process, the thermal efficiency for the F-T synthesis staggers around 30% and then when you take just 15% of that in a petrol engine to do useful work, you do not get a great deal of return for what costs more in the first instance!

Regardless of efficiency, you still take a resource that can be found in vast quantities in the United States and get a finished product that is in dwindling quantities in the United States. Conversion to liquid fuel gives coal much more applicability in the transportation sector when it would have otherwise been limited to just trains.

Quoting Flexo (Reply 13):
That is the problem with the US led wars, they always withdraw the troops too early. Their cause is just to say the least but you will never get the locals to accept and work with you if all the time you say: "We'll be gone first chance we get"

Instead you should say: "We're here to stay, either you accept us or go down the drain"

1. I enjoy the irony of a German telling the U.S. how to run its wars.  rotfl 

2. The official U.S. policy to date has been to stay in Iraq as long as necessary. If public opinion for a war evaporates, would you suggest the government ignore that will and continue? Sounds like an authoritarian government to me.

3. Dead wrong about winning local hearts and minds. You pulled that from your ass.


User currently offlineFlexo From St. Helena, joined Mar 2007, 406 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 1580 times:



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 20):
1. I enjoy the irony of a German telling the U.S. how to run its wars.

Admittedly, Germany's behavior regarding the Iraq war is somewhat shameful, so if you are more inclined to listen to a british person, I'd recommend to read Colossus from Niall Ferguson.
http://www.bookbrowse.com/reviews/index.cfm?book_number=1430

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 20):
The official U.S. policy to date has been to stay in Iraq as long as necessary. If public opinion for a war evaporates, would you suggest the government ignore that will and continue? Sounds like an authoritarian government to me

No, the logical conclusion is to not even start a war if you can't live with the long term commitment it causes. Democracies tend to have problems with long term war commitments.

Withdrawing too early never does any good, quite the opposite.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 20):
3. Dead wrong about winning local hearts and minds. You pulled that from your ass.

Once again I'd recommend above mentioned read. Try it, maybe you'd actually learn something.


User currently offlineRJdxer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (6 years 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1559 times:

Quoting Baroque (Reply 17):
Paranoia will get you everywhere.

Utopianism will get you nowhere except dead with a surprised look on your face.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 17):
Stop shooting messengers, it is not good in the long run.

When the messenger is editorializing to the tenth power it is not shooting the messenger.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 17):
Your point was?

That oil production can and cannot be affected by any number of factors so your point is pretty pointless.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 17):
Odd that, it seems a majority of Iraqis, while pleased to be rid of Saddam do think life was better under him. And just because Rj says that Iraqis are better off now does not make it so.

If you would care to present some facts to back this up, that were assembled after the surge not prior too, then I'd be happy to look them over.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 17):
Got some stats to compare with now on how many refugees under Saddam, how many hours electricity, how much clean drinking water, sewerage services, access to hospitals, education, ability of women to work, numbers of Christians, doctors, engineers in the country under Saddam?

Again something that is going to take time but continue to whine since that is all that it appears you've left to do. Besides, there are a number of countries that could claim those exact problems the world round that didn't ever have a dictator imprisoning, raping, and killing them.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 17):
What on earth the green line in Lebanon has to do with the green zone in Baghdad escapes me, perhaps you can illuminate?

25 years ago it was a desolate and ravaged place. What does it look like today. But continue to whine.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 17):
And of course we have had no comment from you in relation to my praising your hero for his proposals about imputation,

You mean praise as in?

Quoting Baroque (Reply 9):
Odd how the most "dangerously lunatic of ideas" just two years ago is now accepted wisdom.

Since the security situation has changed. Not everyone remains static and locked into 2006 like you evidently are.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 9):
Essentially Bush is taking the way out suggested a couple of years ago.

Which is an incorrect assumption since two years ago the Iraq security forces could not have defended the country.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 9):
Because they certainly are not fixed either now, nor will they be fixed even in 2011 and certainly not in 2009 (withdrawal from the cities).

Again, continue to ignore the obvious. 9 of 18 provinces under Iraq security control and more planned for later this year.





http://engram-backtalk.blogspot.com/.../casualties-in-iraq-july-2008.html

But please keep up your anti-American whining. It's entertaining if nothing else.

[Edited 2008-08-23 17:02:02]

User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 23, posted (6 years 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1475 times:



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 20):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 19):
And this is also why liquids from coal are not such a smart idea. Instead of something close to 80% efficiency in the refining process, the thermal efficiency for the F-T synthesis staggers around 30% and then when you take just 15% of that in a petrol engine to do useful work, you do not get a great deal of return for what costs more in the first instance!

Regardless of efficiency, you still take a resource that can be found in vast quantities in the United States and get a finished product that is in dwindling quantities in the United States. Conversion to liquid fuel gives coal much more applicability in the transportation sector when it would have otherwise been limited to just trains.

It is still not that simple. For a start think of organizing to cope with USD8 gas - I note that it seemed USD4 gas caused some major internal problems with some industries claiming they could not survive.

It is not "just" a matter of building and turning on some F-T plants. When they were planned last time around, water was an additional hurdle, the hydrogen has to come from somewhere to change a fuel with an H:C ratio of about 0.7 to one with an H:C atomic ratio of 18:8, or 2.25.

I am afraid that mathematics and stoichiometry still prevail in the world of CTL. That is why so much work was done in the US in the 70s on the hydrogen shuffle. The concept there was to add a minimum of hydrogen and end up with benzene. Perhaps fortunately it proved almost impossible to do this, fortunately because of the evidence of the carcinogenic properties of benzene, although it a really useful fuel for surface transport.

Which is why prolonging the current black oil industry through conservation is such a good idea!! It is not that it cannot be done, it is more that if you need to do that, there are many things that will have to change and most societies are not ready for the sorts of strains that the German and South African economies went through to allow these technologies to flourish.

Quoting Flexo (Reply 21):
I'd recommend to read Colossus from Niall Ferguson.
http://www.bookbrowse.com/reviews/in...=1430

A good example of that view Flexo, and there is a basic truth in the argument that has powerful extensions that go way beyond the childish chauvinism that we see all to often on these threads.


User currently offlineSeb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11598 posts, RR: 15
Reply 24, posted (6 years 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 1326 times:



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 22):
But please keep up your anti-American whining. It's entertaining if nothing else.

Nice charts. I would like to see one more chart. The one that shows when the United States paid insurgents to stop or slow their attacks on foreign fighters. I believe that was about the time of the surge, as well.

Also, how close is China to sealing an oil deal with Iraq?

I guess the terrorists didn't win if the United States is pulling out.

How much of a surplus of money is Iraq running vs. how much deficite the United States is running and borrowed from China and Saudi Arabia?

But, the oil in Iraq will pay for the war. Do they mean the oil that will be going to China?

But, none of this is Bush's fault. It is all the Democrat's fault.



Life in the wall is a drag.
25 RJdxer : And that would differ from foreign aid paid out to any number of countries to keep them from going communist or worse how? Irrelevant. If they do buy
26 Baroque : Wonder why Dougloid is not (perfectly correctly however) warning against equating a correlation with causation? He usually does not miss an opportuni
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