Beaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 4877 posts, RR: 23 Posted (2 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1327 times:
It's a serious question and nothing to do with Republicans or Democrates-but could a declared Atheist play any meaningful role in American politics ?
When questioned by an atheist journalist in 1987,GWB made following statements :
" Sherman: What will you do to win the votes of the Americans who are atheists?
Bush: I guess I'm pretty weak in the atheist community. Faith in God is important to me.
Sherman: Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists?
Bush: No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.
Sherman (somewhat taken aback): Do you support as a sound constitutional principle the separation of state and church?
Bush: Yes, I support the separation of church and state. I'm just not very high on atheist..."
If one considers that the third president of the United States,Thomas Jefferson ,was a declared Atheist and barely could be considered as "non-patriotic",the exclusion of those not believing in God from political responsibility seems absurd.
Faith in a specific religion has nothing to do with not supporting a counties constitution or defending that countries rights.
Washington,Lincoln,Franklin,John Adams,Grant...all non-patriotic ???
Superfly From United States, joined May 2000, 27317 posts, RR: 75 Reply 1, posted (2 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1328 times:
We already have one.
Congressman Pete Stark who represents a district in the East Bay, about 20 SE of San Francisco.
Pate Stark is Airliners.net member Confucius Congressman.
Pete Stark is a wonderful Congressman that routinely wins re-election in landslides.
He is certainly an asset to Congress.
Beaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 4877 posts, RR: 23 Reply 2, posted (2 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1316 times:
Thanks Superfly for the indication- so Stark seems the one and only declared Atheist politician of any US assembly of importance ..
Considering the rather strong non-religious roots in the American presidential history,that makes a pretty small remaining representation .
I read his remarks about the financial-funding of the Irak-war and find them quite appropriate !
LAXintl From United States, joined May 2000, 9237 posts, RR: 12 Reply 3, posted (2 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1314 times:
Only on the fringes of America.
Religion plays a central theme in most peoples core beliefs and values systems.
We dont pledge as "One Nation under God", swear oath on a bible in court, currency states "In God we Trust" and have sayings as "God and Country", for no reason.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
David L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 7334 posts, RR: 28 Reply 4, posted (2 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1307 times:
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3): Religion plays a central theme in most peoples core beliefs and values systems.
I'll just have to take people's word for that but I find it hard to believe. A very significant proportion of the Americans I've known have either been atheist or didn't care much about religion - only slightly less than is the case over here.
Beaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 4877 posts, RR: 23 Reply 5, posted (2 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1303 times:
Would an American soldier have to pronounce an oath on God when entering service ?
What if that soldier is non-religious ?
Would it not be more appropriate to make an oath on the constitution rather than on the bible ?
German soldiers make an oath exclusively based on the nation and declare to defend the values of the Federal Republic of Germany..
"...Ich schwöre der Bundesrepublik Deutschland treu zu dienen und das Recht und die Freiheit des deutschen Volkes tapfer zu verteidigen...."
DocLightning From United States, joined Nov 2005, 3103 posts, RR: 13 Reply 7, posted (2 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1287 times:
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3): We dont pledge as "One Nation under God", swear oath on a bible in court, currency states "In God we Trust" and have sayings as "God and Country", for no reason.
There is a VERY clear reason, in fact. That reason is Joseph McCarthy. That is why "under God" was added to the Pledge. I think he was also responsible for the "In God we Trust" on the money.
Strange that you would support his agenda. It wasn't a good idea then and it is less so a good idea now.
LAXintl From United States, joined May 2000, 9237 posts, RR: 12 Reply 8, posted (2 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1279 times:
Yes, the oaths of enlistment for the United States Armed Forces state:
Non Officers; "I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. [/b]So help me God."[/b]
Officers: "I, _____ (SSAN), having been appointed an officer in the Army of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God."
Even the oath of citizenship mentions God.
I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God.
[Edited 2008-09-05 02:00:34]
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
HowSwedeitis From Sweden, joined Jul 2007, 514 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (2 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1251 times:
Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter): No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.
If this is a true statement, this is a very troubling thing to say...
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3): We dont pledge as "One Nation under God", swear oath on a bible in court, currency states "In God we Trust" and have sayings as "God and Country", for no reason.
Actually the pledge goes like this:
Quote: "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands: one Nation indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all."
LAXintl From United States, joined May 2000, 9237 posts, RR: 12 Reply 11, posted (2 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1239 times:
Use of God is far from a 1950s era McCarthy things.
God has been refered to going back to the founding of America and it very much intertwined in its history.
Just some brief quotes,
"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We've staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity...to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God]."
James Madison, 1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia
"The Law given from Sinai [The Ten Commandments] was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code."
John Quincy Adams.
" The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity... I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."
John Adams
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
Thomas Jefferson
"In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered... do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?"
Benjamin Franklin at the Constitutional Convention
"It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."
Patrick Henry
Even Lincoln for instance in his historic Gettysburg Address refered to it.
But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate—we can not consecrate—we can not hallow—this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.
To you it might be -- however the legal offical pledge is. "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
Someone did challenge the God part of the pledge and it ended up in the Supreme Court, which in an unprecedented 8-0 ruling found that the Plaintiff could not challenge the wording.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
KiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 185 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (2 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1224 times:
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 12): To you it might be -- however the legal offical pledge is.
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
Well some right wing religious nut added under god in 1954. The history of the pledge as follows.
1892
“I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands: one Nation indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.”
1892 to 1923
"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all."
1923 to 1954
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all."
1954 to Present
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all."
Personally I believe most politians only pay lip service to god, it helps them get elected, nothing more.
LTBEWR From United States, joined Jan 2004, 8503 posts, RR: 16 Reply 13, posted (2 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1199 times:
Simple answer: No.
We prefer our Presidents to be persons of faith, mainly Protestant, not Catholic or Jewish. In the 1950's the importance of proclaiming faith by politicans at all levels grew in reaction to the growth of 'godless communism' in various parts of the world. The preference of a faith belief gained in the 1960's in reaction to banning the saying of 'official' prayers in public schools, the legalization of Abortion, the new birth control pills, the rise of urban riots and so on. Then politicians, mainly Republicans started to see support of religious persons to get votes taking conservative social views.
While many of the founders and influences of our country were actively religious, others like writer Thomas Paine were practical Atheist, others were Agnostics, some were not regular attendees at religious services. In our founding, we made it clear that there should be freedom from religion as well as agreeing to the practice of any faith and no 'official' faith, breaking away from European practice of millenniums. Even some of those who were actively religious were really not in a true sense with owning slaves, womanizing and other immoral behaviors.
We prefer our Presidents to be persons of faith, mainly Protestant, not Catholic or Jewish. In the 1950's the importance of proclaiming faith by politicans at all levels grew in reaction to the growth of 'godless communism' in various parts of the world. The preference of a faith belief gained in the 1960's in reaction to banning the saying of 'official' prayers in public schools, the legalization of Abortion, the new birth control pills, the rise of urban riots and so on. Then politicians, mainly Republicans started to see support of religious persons to get votes taking conservative social views.
While many of the founders and influences of our country were actively religious, others like writer Thomas Paine were practical Atheist, others were Agnostics, some were not regular attendees at religious services. In our founding, we made it clear that there should be freedom from religion as well as agreeing to the practice of any faith and no 'official' faith, breaking away from European practice of millenniums. Even some of those who were actively religious were really not in a true sense with owning slaves, womanizing and other immoral behaviors.
Thanks for the answer - it's not that I distrust any Christian,Jew ,Buddhist or Muslim more than an Agnostic- but based on history, there is a clear relationship between religion and armed conflicts .So if one would try to really separate executive powers from any religious
lobbying or influence-at least it would eliminate the pressure to obey one God-inspired group rather than another.
I'd like this thread to be confined to the US,since obviously in other parts of the world religion and politics do create mass-killings ,injustice and disaster.But what strikes me is the obvious dropping of once solidly entrenched values that are dis-associated from any religious values.I also don't think it is purely based on free-masonic influence of some of the previous presidents,since not all Agnostics or Atheists are adepts of free-masonry.Actually many Agnostics have a thorough understanding of various religious practice,since they tend to study the subject before their change in philosophy.They probably know more and in a more unbiased view about the bible than most Christians who became Christians without their consent,since they were to young to understand what happened to them.
Political conventions under the name of God to me are as condemnable as hate-talks in some mosques or Buddhist brain-wash to most uneducated Tibetans.
The public pressure to obey by the "rules" has become so strong that many who -deep in their hearts-don't really have any attachment to a particuler religion,just do what everybody imposes on them.
If a Colister in a Republican or Democratic party convention would stand up and say: " ..I'm an Agnostic and don't believe in Jesus.." it most likely would end his career.ANd that's what is frightening me ! The land of freedom and liberties does not grant equal rights to the ones who don't believe..
KiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 185 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (2 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1124 times:
Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 14): We prefer our Presidents to be persons of faith, mainly Protestant, not Catholic or Jewish.
I suspect you'll end up with a lot of Catholic Presidents towards the end of this centuary when the Latinos take over from the WASPS as the majority population. I wonder how that will go down with middle America.
TheSonntag From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 2456 posts, RR: 18 Reply 16, posted (2 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1117 times:
Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 5): German soldiers make an oath exclusively based on the nation and declare to defend the values of the Federal Republic of Germany..
Do not underestimate the importance of religion in Germany, though. The oath before court (very rare nowadays) still should be said with the additional phrase "So wahr mir Gott helfe" , as can the oath to serve the state as a minisiter, chancellor or the president be said with the words "so wahr mir Gott helfe" (as God shall help me).
You can freely elect to state the oath without the religious phrase, as Chancellor Schröder did in 1998. This actually caused huge criticism form the Churches.
While this might be a smaller note, the influece of the Churches in Germany on politics is quite high, as many social institutions are driven by them, and the Reichskonkordat allows them to draw taxes.
Mdsh00 From United States, joined May 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 16 Reply 18, posted (2 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1082 times:
Quoting HowSwedeitis (Reply 11):
The fact of the matter is, atheists and agnostics (which I am) are some of the most discriminated groups in America.
I wouldn't go that far and say that. Nobody discriminates against them, and especially not in the more progressive regions of the US. I'm talking about the Northeast, IL, MN, WI, MI, and the Pacific States.
What is true however, is that religion does hold an important place in the American psyche, whether it be Christianity, or not. Although a politician might become elected on a smaller level and still declare s/he is an atheist, good luck on trying to gain an office on a higher level.
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