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Could An Atheist Become A Politician In America?  
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3881 times:

It's a serious question and nothing to do with Republicans or Democrates-but could a declared Atheist play any meaningful role in American politics ?

When questioned by an atheist journalist in 1987,GWB made following statements :

" Sherman: What will you do to win the votes of the Americans who are atheists?

Bush: I guess I'm pretty weak in the atheist community. Faith in God is important to me.

Sherman: Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists?

Bush: No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.

Sherman (somewhat taken aback): Do you support as a sound constitutional principle the separation of state and church?

Bush: Yes, I support the separation of church and state. I'm just not very high on atheist..."

If one considers that the third president of the United States,Thomas Jefferson ,was a declared Atheist and barely could be considered as "non-patriotic",the exclusion of those not believing in God from political responsibility seems absurd.
Faith in a specific religion has nothing to do with not supporting a counties constitution or defending that countries rights.
Washington,Lincoln,Franklin,John Adams,Grant...all non-patriotic ???


Please respect animals - don't eat them...
74 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39690 posts, RR: 75
Reply 1, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3882 times:

We already have one.
Congressman Pete Stark who represents a district in the East Bay, about 20 SE of San Francisco.
Pate Stark is Airliners.net member Confucius Congressman.
Pete Stark is a wonderful Congressman that routinely wins re-election in landslides.
He is certainly an asset to Congress.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 2, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3870 times:

Thanks Superfly for the indication- so Stark seems the one and only declared Atheist politician of any US assembly of importance ..
Considering the rather strong non-religious roots in the American presidential history,that makes a pretty small remaining representation .
I read his remarks about the financial-funding of the Irak-war and find them quite appropriate !



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24814 posts, RR: 46
Reply 3, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3868 times:

Only on the fringes of America.

Religion plays a central theme in most peoples core beliefs and values systems.

We dont pledge as "One Nation under God", swear oath on a bible in court, currency states "In God we Trust" and have sayings as "God and Country", for no reason.




From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9523 posts, RR: 42
Reply 4, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3861 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
Religion plays a central theme in most peoples core beliefs and values systems.

I'll just have to take people's word for that but I find it hard to believe. A very significant proportion of the Americans I've known have either been atheist or didn't care much about religion - only slightly less than is the case over here.


User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 5, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3857 times:

Would an American soldier have to pronounce an oath on God when entering service ?
What if that soldier is non-religious ?
Would it not be more appropriate to make an oath on the constitution rather than on the bible ?

German soldiers make an oath exclusively based on the nation and declare to defend the values of the Federal Republic of Germany..

"...Ich schwöre der Bundesrepublik Deutschland treu zu dienen und das Recht und die Freiheit des deutschen Volkes tapfer zu verteidigen...."



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7109 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3852 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
swear oath on a bible in court

But you don't have to swear an oath on a bible in court, if you are a non believer the bible isn't used.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19381 posts, RR: 58
Reply 7, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3841 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
We dont pledge as "One Nation under God", swear oath on a bible in court, currency states "In God we Trust" and have sayings as "God and Country", for no reason.

There is a VERY clear reason, in fact. That reason is Joseph McCarthy. That is why "under God" was added to the Pledge. I think he was also responsible for the "In God we Trust" on the money.

Strange that you would support his agenda. It wasn't a good idea then and it is less so a good idea now.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24814 posts, RR: 46
Reply 8, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3833 times:

Yes, the oaths of enlistment for the United States Armed Forces state:

Non Officers;
"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. [/b]So help me God."[/b]

Officers:
"I, _____ (SSAN), having been appointed an officer in the Army of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God."



Even the oath of citizenship mentions God.

I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God.

[Edited 2008-09-05 02:00:34]


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24814 posts, RR: 46
Reply 9, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3824 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
I think he was also responsible for the "In God we Trust" on the money.

First appeared on US coin in 1864, however was officially designated as the U.S. national motto by Congress in 1956.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineHowSwedeitis From Sweden, joined Jul 2007, 586 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3805 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.

If this is a true statement, this is a very troubling thing to say...

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
We dont pledge as "One Nation under God", swear oath on a bible in court, currency states "In God we Trust" and have sayings as "God and Country", for no reason.

Actually the pledge goes like this:

Quote:
"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands: one Nation indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all."

Also, "In God We Trust" did not become the official U.S. national motto until after the passage of an Act of Congress in 1956. As for money, I do like this stamp... http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/dd/Igwtcontro.jpg


The fact of the matter is, atheists and agnostics (which I am) are some of the most discriminated groups in America.

-HSII



Heja Sverige!!
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24814 posts, RR: 46
Reply 11, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3793 times:

Use of God is far from a 1950s era McCarthy things.

God has been refered to going back to the founding of America and it very much intertwined in its history.

Just some brief quotes,

"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We've staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity...to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God]."
James Madison, 1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia

"The Law given from Sinai [The Ten Commandments] was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code."
John Quincy Adams.

" The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity... I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."
John Adams

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
Thomas Jefferson

"In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered... do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?"
Benjamin Franklin at the Constitutional Convention

"It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."
Patrick Henry


Even Lincoln for instance in his historic Gettysburg Address refered to it.

But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate—we can not consecrate—we can not hallow—this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

Quoting HowSwedeitis (Reply 11):
Actually the pledge goes like this:

To you it might be -- however the legal offical pledge is.
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Someone did challenge the God part of the pledge and it ended up in the Supreme Court, which in an unprecedented 8-0 ruling found that the Plaintiff could not challenge the wording.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7109 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3778 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 12):
To you it might be -- however the legal offical pledge is.
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Well some right wing religious nut added under god in 1954. The history of the pledge as follows.

1892
“I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands: one Nation indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.”

1892 to 1923
"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all."

1923 to 1954
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all."

1954 to Present
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all."

Personally I believe most politians only pay lip service to god, it helps them get elected, nothing more.


User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13032 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3753 times:

Simple answer: No.

We prefer our Presidents to be persons of faith, mainly Protestant, not Catholic or Jewish. In the 1950's the importance of proclaiming faith by politicans at all levels grew in reaction to the growth of 'godless communism' in various parts of the world. The preference of a faith belief gained in the 1960's in reaction to banning the saying of 'official' prayers in public schools, the legalization of Abortion, the new birth control pills, the rise of urban riots and so on. Then politicians, mainly Republicans started to see support of religious persons to get votes taking conservative social views.

While many of the founders and influences of our country were actively religious, others like writer Thomas Paine were practical Atheist, others were Agnostics, some were not regular attendees at religious services. In our founding, we made it clear that there should be freedom from religion as well as agreeing to the practice of any faith and no 'official' faith, breaking away from European practice of millenniums. Even some of those who were actively religious were really not in a true sense with owning slaves, womanizing and other immoral behaviors.


User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 14, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3742 times:



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 14):
Simple answer: No.

We prefer our Presidents to be persons of faith, mainly Protestant, not Catholic or Jewish. In the 1950's the importance of proclaiming faith by politicans at all levels grew in reaction to the growth of 'godless communism' in various parts of the world. The preference of a faith belief gained in the 1960's in reaction to banning the saying of 'official' prayers in public schools, the legalization of Abortion, the new birth control pills, the rise of urban riots and so on. Then politicians, mainly Republicans started to see support of religious persons to get votes taking conservative social views.

While many of the founders and influences of our country were actively religious, others like writer Thomas Paine were practical Atheist, others were Agnostics, some were not regular attendees at religious services. In our founding, we made it clear that there should be freedom from religion as well as agreeing to the practice of any faith and no 'official' faith, breaking away from European practice of millenniums. Even some of those who were actively religious were really not in a true sense with owning slaves, womanizing and other immoral behaviors.

Thanks for the answer - it's not that I distrust any Christian,Jew ,Buddhist or Muslim more than an Agnostic- but based on history, there is a clear relationship between religion and armed conflicts .So if one would try to really separate executive powers from any religious
lobbying or influence-at least it would eliminate the pressure to obey one God-inspired group rather than another.
I'd like this thread to be confined to the US,since obviously in other parts of the world religion and politics do create mass-killings ,injustice and disaster.But what strikes me is the obvious dropping of once solidly entrenched values that are dis-associated from any religious values.I also don't think it is purely based on free-masonic influence of some of the previous presidents,since not all Agnostics or Atheists are adepts of free-masonry.Actually many Agnostics have a thorough understanding of various religious practice,since they tend to study the subject before their change in philosophy.They probably know more and in a more unbiased view about the bible than most Christians who became Christians without their consent,since they were to young to understand what happened to them.
Political conventions under the name of God to me are as condemnable as hate-talks in some mosques or Buddhist brain-wash to most uneducated Tibetans.
The public pressure to obey by the "rules" has become so strong that many who -deep in their hearts-don't really have any attachment to a particuler religion,just do what everybody imposes on them.
If a Colister in a Republican or Democratic party convention would stand up and say: " ..I'm an Agnostic and don't believe in Jesus.." it most likely would end his career.ANd that's what is frightening me ! The land of freedom and liberties does not grant equal rights to the ones who don't believe..



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7109 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3678 times:



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 14):
We prefer our Presidents to be persons of faith, mainly Protestant, not Catholic or Jewish.

I suspect you'll end up with a lot of Catholic Presidents towards the end of this centuary when the Latinos take over from the WASPS as the majority population. I wonder how that will go down with middle America.


User currently offlineTheSonntag From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 3514 posts, RR: 29
Reply 16, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3671 times:



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 5):
German soldiers make an oath exclusively based on the nation and declare to defend the values of the Federal Republic of Germany..

Do not underestimate the importance of religion in Germany, though. The oath before court (very rare nowadays) still should be said with the additional phrase "So wahr mir Gott helfe" , as can the oath to serve the state as a minisiter, chancellor or the president be said with the words "so wahr mir Gott helfe" (as God shall help me).

You can freely elect to state the oath without the religious phrase, as Chancellor Schröder did in 1998. This actually caused huge criticism form the Churches.

While this might be a smaller note, the influece of the Churches in Germany on politics is quite high, as many social institutions are driven by them, and the Reichskonkordat allows them to draw taxes.


User currently offlineVoodoo From Niue, joined Mar 2001, 2071 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3665 times:

Interestingly .........
http://www.atheistfoxholes.org/about.php

Also:
http://richarddawkins.net/forum/view...d=a14cdb4f368d0b964c14dce2cdc0d64e

[Edited 2008-09-05 06:30:32]


` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
User currently offlineMdsh00 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4124 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3636 times:



Quoting HowSwedeitis (Reply 11):

The fact of the matter is, atheists and agnostics (which I am) are some of the most discriminated groups in America.

I wouldn't go that far and say that. Nobody discriminates against them, and especially not in the more progressive regions of the US. I'm talking about the Northeast, IL, MN, WI, MI, and the Pacific States.

What is true however, is that religion does hold an important place in the American psyche, whether it be Christianity, or not. Although a politician might become elected on a smaller level and still declare s/he is an atheist, good luck on trying to gain an office on a higher level.

I feel like the same goes for any non-Christian as well. They hold offices on the Congressional level but I think we will see a Black and Female president before we even see a non-Christian take an executive or senatorial position, let alone the presidency. If Bobby Jindal we're still a Hindu, nobody in Louisiana would have given him the time of day.



"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
User currently offlineDaedaeg From United States of America, joined Feb 2003, 657 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3615 times:

As a person of faith, it would be hard for me to vote for an atheist for President. For local and county offices I'd probably could do it. I mean who really cares if the local coroner or county clerk is atheist. But for national office I prefer someone who is accountable to someone greater than man. Just my beliefs.


Everyday you're alive is a good day.
User currently offlineVoodoo From Niue, joined Mar 2001, 2071 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3615 times:

Britain is somewhat ahead here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf.../21/davidmiliband.labourleadership

[Edited 2008-09-05 07:55:25]


` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24814 posts, RR: 46
Reply 21, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3581 times:



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 13):
Personally I believe most politians only pay lip service to god, it helps them get elected, nothing more.

They maybe do. However it shows that religion pays an important part in the hearts and subsequent decision process of the electorate.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 16):
I suspect you'll end up with a lot of Catholic Presidents towards the end of this centuary when the Latinos take over from the WASPS as the majority population. I wonder how that will go down with middle America

At the end of the day as America's demographics shift yes Catholics will gain even more offices and I suspect they will be accepted just fine by the majority of the population.

I suspect the masses will openly embrace a Catholic person of faith much easier then a non-Christion person or certainly over an atheist.

Quoting Voodoo (Reply 21):
Britain is somewhat ahead here:

Ahead? -- I would hardly use that term. UK and Europe might be less religions then their cousin here in the US, but to infer this as being better or more advanced is offensive.

One could very well argue that its the lack of faith and religious participation is what leads to many of societies ills. Who is to say which view is right?



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 22, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3568 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 22):

One could very well argue that its the lack of faith and religious participation is what leads to many of societies ills. Who is to say which view is right?

Well explain that logic to the North-Irish who have been blown to pieces by opposing "Christian" fractions or to Sunni Muslims killed by opposing Shi'ia gangs.
Explain that "lack of faith" to the fanatics in Indonesia or India,killing and devastating lives of non-members of their faith. They all lived under the impression the fervent believe in a given God or religion would help them to overcome daily problems.The actual opposite is true...
I don't say American Catholics or Baptists are alike-but on a global scale Religion is the reason for more misery and death than most other reasons..

[Edited 2008-09-05 10:19:34]


Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19381 posts, RR: 58
Reply 23, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3555 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 9):
First appeared on US coin in 1864, however was officially designated as the U.S. national motto by Congress in 1956.

I knew he had something to do with it.

You have to remember that God during the 1700's was a given. Atheism hadn't really developed as a philosophy yet. And so he was mentioned in every single speech and quote from that time.

Yet there are just as many quotes from that time to show how important the Founding Fathers felt that religion stay out of government.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24814 posts, RR: 46
Reply 24, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3547 times:



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 22):
on a global scale Religion is the reason for more misery and death than most other reasons..

Maybe true, but I know many today that would point to the lack of faith and religious convictions as being part of the break down of families, inner city issues including crime and youth, and general loosening of morals and society values.

So whom is to say that stronger religious conviction's do not help keep youth on a straighter track, hold families together and help societies live more lawfully?



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
25 Voodoo : Adults who believe in the tooth fairy are normally considered as less advanced than those who do not. 'Offense' has nothing to do with it. Are you a
26 RedFlyer : A meaningful role? Yes. But if you mean could one become President, possible, but unlikely in the current political environment. Which is to say it w
27 Post contains links Beaucaire : http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/ghwbush.htm
28 Cytz_pilot : That argument I believe would be based on the opinion that without religion, a person cannot form a moral and ethical base. People of faith see this
29 LAXintl : Wow ... You feel the billions of global religion followers equate to tooth fairy believers and are less advanced because of their beliefs. Now that i
30 N1120A : I am a lawyer and have never seen someone swear in on a bible, in court or otherwise. And that is wrong. Fringes? There are lots of mainstream Americ
31 LAXintl : You know I actually saw something such as that on one of the large US news sights early in the primaries. One could assign points to candidates based
32 LAXintl : True - not in California, but still carried out in many jurisdictions across this country as part of making an affirmation to tell the truth as to th
33 N1120A : And they can refuse both. I didn't say your religion, I said religion generally. To say it is somehow un-American to not believe in god is ridiculous
34 HapppyLandings : The majority of people have always been sheep and always will be sheep, I believe the bible makes plenty of reference to followers as being a 'Flock'
35 RedFlyer : " target=_blank>http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/...h.htm An article by Madalyn Murray O'Hare? For a moment there I thought it was a respectable p
36 San747 : Actually, here's what's interesting- ALL religions believe that non-believers are incorrect in their interpretation of the "truth" and will go to som
37 Superfly : Shouldn't that read; Religion plays a part with a lot of Republican voters? Notice, Democrats don't vote based on whether a candidate is a Protestant
38 David L : The point is that it's much more difficult for UK politicians to credit/blame God for their own actions/mistakes. Any that do are open to criticism.
39 PPVRA : Out of curiosity, are there any President/PMs/Whatever in this world that are proclaimed atheists? Merkel of Germany is lutheran, Sarkozy is Catholic.
40 Post contains links Beaucaire : http://www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml9527.htm
41 David L : I've no idea but there are many places where the subject just doesn't come up.
42 Post contains links PPVRA : Not really, though he didn't elaborate further. edit: David L, I agree, as it shouldn't come up. Religion is a private matter.[Edited 2008-09-05 14:1
43 Blackbird : Sure, why not? Blackbird
44 Post contains links and images LAXintl : Check this out -- You can adjust demographic scenarios such as race and religion and see how the electoral college plays out. http://www.boston.com/n
45 KiwiRob : Helen Clark the PM of New Zealand is a declared agnostic.
46 DocLightning : The problem with gods is that their wishes often mirror those of their believers. Tell me, what if your man of faith worships a different god than yo
47 HowSwedeitis : Hence, why I am an agnostic. What I find truly remarkable is the hatred seen in many religions towards other religions... Quite often Christians find
48 RedFlyer : Unfortunately, I have to agree with what you say. And the same applies to Muslims' perceptions of Christians. And to any religion's view of another r
49 MIAMIx707 : You have the option not to live here as well, to be fair where does this country forces any religious beliefs on anyone? However, this country was fo
50 Superfly : ...and they cast their vote not based on religious reasons. There are other variables these voters take in to consideration.
51 Dc9northwest : A politician, yes... The president or another high-profile function? No way. Americans in general are way too stuck-up on God. I'd rather have an athe
52 KLMCedric : I always say I'm an agnostic, although I always had this gut-feeling that the day we drop dead, it's all over and done for, which would make me an ath
53 Beaucaire : Interesting statement although I clearly make a difference between philosophy and dogma-tied religions.. Any religion basically is tied to rules,rite
54 David L : Actually, yes, there was a Pope Joan, allegedly, though the fact that it caused such a furore supports your point.
55 HowSwedeitis : I think you may feel like I do, and that is "Scientific-Agnostic." There are still many questions that we all have, but we look towards science for m
56 Baroque : Now there is a daring thought Dc9. However not one that seems to have gained much traction. So folks do tell us. How would an atheist/agnostic go abo
57 Greggarious : Not that I'm religious (I'm not at all, actually)... but there is sooooo much more to religion and a belief in God than that! Believing in God is one
58 RedFlyer : That's an interesting point you bring up. I've known Atheists (my father was a staunch one) in my life and all were good, upstanding, and, for the mo
59 Post contains links LAXintl : For some interesting material, PBS has been running a series called Religion & Ethics, which examines how religion continues to be an important factor
60 David L : Because there's a general consensus about what makes our short lives more acceptable. Very few of us want to waste our lives permanently looking over
61 David L : Oops, I forgot this... In my experience, it's impossible to predict without more information about the individuals.
62 MIAMIx707 : Ask Al Gore and Bill Clinton Gore said he faithfully went to a Baptist Church every sunday, while at the same time saying God should be kept out of t
63 GDB : Why would the US body politic ditch something so useful to them at times? If you've a history of alcohol and drug abuse, easy, just say 'god helped me
64 Tootallsd : I think all those things originated in the 1950s as part of the Master Plan to defeat communism and desegregation.
65 Post contains links Baroque : I just did and they both said they were Christians and definitely not atheists. http://blog.algore.com/2008/08/my_remarks_at_the_democratic_n.html ht
66 Baroque : That would be funny GDB if it was not probably true!
67 MIAMIx707 : Are you aware rappers use violence and profanity and two sentences later "thank the Lord" as if to sound "Christian"? Once again for Baroque, Gore an
68 Baroque : And you clearly have not read the websites to which I directed you.
69 LAXintl : I believe you have missed MIAMIx707 whole point that both Gore and Clinton while yes Christians very conveniently talked up religion particularly vis
70 Baroque : Assuming I have the meaning of that sentence (which may not be the case as there seem to be a few words missing), I doubt if I did miss a point LACin
71 MIAMIx707 : In the same way he asks LAXintl "where is your evicence to back that up", I again have to ask, does Baroque understand English well? Not that it matt
72 Baroque : I asked for evidence not for insults. However, it may be that you do not yet know the difference. Your postings certainly could be interpreted that w
73 MIAMIx707 : I wasn't trying to insult you, being ironic mostly since it's obvious you're denying something (on purpose) for which good evidence has been supplied
74 Baroque : You are welcome. You will find out when it comes. See, you would understand if you had an Arab background as strong as mine. Meanwhile, I am still aw
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