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Good Op-Ed On Sex Education In The US  
User currently offlineMdsh00 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4124 posts, RR: 8
Posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2963 times:

All partisan BS should be left aside in this thread

This Op/Ed piece makes a great argument of the failure that has been Abstinence only education.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/06/op...ml?_r=2&hp&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

Quote:
In fact, a 2001 Unicef report said that the United States teenage birthrate was higher than any other member of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development. The U.S. tied Hungary for the most abortions. This was in spite of the fact that girls in the U.S. were not the most sexually active. Denmark held that title. But, its teenage birthrate was one-sixth of ours, and its teenage abortion rate was half of ours.



Quote:
According to a 2004 survey sponsored by NPR, the Kaiser Family Foundation and Harvard’s Kennedy School of Government, 65 percent of parents of high school students said that federal money “should be used to fund more comprehensive sex education programs that include information on how to obtain and use condoms and other contraceptives.”

Thoughts?


"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
62 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3866 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2961 times:



Quoting Mdsh00 (Thread starter):
Thoughts?

I'm moving to Denmark.

Uh, did I say that out loud?


User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8661 posts, RR: 15
Reply 2, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2945 times:

Wow. If parents would influence their kids to use condoms or birth control, some of this might not happen. However, teens are going to be stupid sometimes and not listen. II do not our public school system for not offering condoms, nor birth control. I am sure had the public school system did that, pregnancy rates would be going down.

Hunter



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineJM017 From Jamaica, joined Jun 2002, 1227 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2930 times:

I saw a report recently contrasting the policy used in the state of Texas versus California. Texas emphasizes abstinence and not a comprehensive sex ed program per se. California promotes sex ed (including abstinence). Texas has the highest teen pregnancy rate of any state in the US. See here.

edit: minor corrections

[Edited 2008-09-06 09:43:50]


"It's okay to cheat, if you just really don't like to lose."
User currently offlineIAirAllie From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2917 times:

This should be the responsibility of the parents.

User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2056 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2916 times:



Quoting Mdsh00 (Thread starter):
All partisan BS should be left aside in this thread

Dream big. Of course the Op-Ed is right; but the conservative candidate for the US election just chose a running mate who stands for the opposite, with the consequences open for all to see - and still a large portion of the country, as well as this forum, think that's just a fantastic choice.

It's not my country and not for me to comment on. Obviously people will act based on what they think is right, and nobody can change that really. But then again, I do feel with the hundred thousands of people who have their life seriously messed up as a result of this closed-minded societal behaviour.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13033 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2876 times:

To me public schools ought to offer different levels of age appropriate Sexual Responsibility Education (my preferred term) and an 'opt-out' choice involving the parents. This would allow flexibility as to the variances of religious beliefs in a school, yet offer more comprehensive levels to those parents who want that.
The opt-out would be for those students under 18 and are parts of very strict faiths such as Islam, Hindu, Orthodox/Conservative Jewish and of course Christians.
For participants, then have maybe 2-3 levels, including 'abstance only', a middle level and a maximum comprehensive level (like how to use a condom using a banana).
For all students, I would teach the responsibility and moral issues that sexual acts incur, the affects on people, families, and the community from teen pregnancy, the moral issues over abortion, the necessary social skills to reduce risks of sexual assault from not drinking or using drugs, going to a home where a parent isn't home and so on.


User currently offlineMdsh00 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4124 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2867 times:



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 6):
The opt-out would be for those students under 18 and are parts of very strict faiths such as Islam, Hindu, Orthodox/Conservative Jewish and of course Christians.

I think most Hindu/Indian parents tend to allow it because they are too squeamish to teach us (their kids) themselves. Then again it's very clear that "hanky-panky" is not allowed.  Silly

I take it that each state handles things differently, but when I was in High school in California, they would always send a form home with a permission/opt out and explain what may be taught. I remember few kids' parents ever opting them out.



"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19385 posts, RR: 58
Reply 8, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2858 times:



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 6):
For participants, then have maybe 2-3 levels, including 'abstance only', a middle level and a maximum comprehensive level (like how to use a condom using a banana).

That's like saying that we should have an option for people who want their kids to learn creationism in school.

Abstinence-only education simply does not work. Evidence has shown time and time again that it delays sexual onset by less than a year, but subsequently increases teenage pregnancy and STD rate and decreases condom use.

Look, teenagers have been having sex since teenagers were invented. NEVER buy into the Victorian bulldung that in the past people waited until marriage. Do you think Romeo and Juliet were chaste? The point is that sex is a strong drive in the healthy young adult, and teenagers, once in puberty, are healthy young adults whether their parents are willing to accept that simple biological fact or not.

Abstinence is an important form of birth control, but it is by far the least reliable. When held to the same standard as condoms (you have to figure in misuse), it is as much as 80% less reliable. Teenagers need to know that once they do make the decision to have sex, and essentially 100% of them will, there are ways to avoid pregnancy and STD's.

Look, I'm an expert on this subject as a specialist in adolescent medicine. This is what I study and this is what I do. Teenagers, particularly girls, need to learn at a young age to be sexually empowered. If they are going to have sex, then they need to be sure that it is for the right reason.

When I interview a teenager at work and I find out that s/he is sexually active, my next question is always, "Do you enjoy sex?" The boys always answer yes, but the girls sometimes say "It's a'right." That's when I get into the sexual empowerment talk. See, girls need to understand that any man inside them is a guest in their bodies and that he is expected to conduct himself as a guest and a gentleman. That means that 1) he will protect her by wearing a condom every time and 2) he will remember that her pleasure is more important than his own.

In my experience, girls are far less likely to get pregnant or contract an STD if they view themselves as being sexually powerful. This is because they don't fear losing their man if they refuse to have sex with him because he is not being a gentleman.

Yes, abstinence is the best way to avoid these consequences, but, as Jocelyn Elders said: "Abstinence breaks a lot more easily than condoms do!"


User currently offlineZBBYLW From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 1982 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2845 times:



Quoting Moo (Reply 1):
I'm moving to Denmark.

Ill meet you there!  Big grin  highfive 



Keep the shinny side up!
User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2827 times:



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 4):
This should be the responsibility of the parents.

It's all bullshit, every bit of it.

When I was a kid, there were girls who did it. They got pregnant. The *lucky* couple disappeared from school. The next time you saw the guy, they were married, he was working at the A&P and they lived in a two room apartment over a store. Shotgun weddings were the order of the day-fact is, I was a participant in that process myself one time. I'm not sorry either. It made me grow up in a hurry, which I needed to do. I did not work at the A&P because I was out of school already. I drove a tow truck for the local wrecking yard, worked in a paper mill, and worked for the phone company.

The point is, people took responsibility for the choices they made, no matter how hard the road was. There were things you simply did not do, there was nonoe of this talk of being a baby daddy or a baby mama, nobody went on welfare while the father disappeared or hung around the corner with all the other unemployed cocksmen, you manned up and faced up to your responsibilities as an adult, because your childhood was officially over.


User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12090 posts, RR: 49
Reply 11, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2790 times:



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 4):
This should be the responsibility of the parents.

That might be true though it becomes the responsibility of the state when the parents drop the ball, no pun intended.

Like my Mom always said, invest in education that is one thing that can not be taken away from you.



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12090 posts, RR: 49
Reply 12, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2789 times:



Quoting JM017 (Reply 3):
I saw a report recently contrasting the policy used in the state of Texas versus California. Texas emphasizes abstinence and not a comprehensive sex ed program per se. California promotes sex ed (including abstinence). Texas has the highest teen pregnancy rate of any state in the US. See here.

TX what Presidents current and former hail from this state again? And you want to elect a President who's staunchly pro-choice for his Vice President she wants to take that choice away from you.



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineIAirAllie From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2751 times:



Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 11):
Like my Mom always said, invest in education that is one thing that can not be taken away from you.

We are all only one brain injury away from loosing it all.


User currently offlineACDC8 From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 7642 posts, RR: 36
Reply 14, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2749 times:



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 10):
The point is, people took responsibility for the choices they made, no matter how hard the road was.

What a concept, huh? Seems today that its so much easier to run away from your problems and blame everyone else for them.



A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
User currently offlineJM017 From Jamaica, joined Jun 2002, 1227 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2701 times:



Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 12):
TX what Presidents current and former hail from this state again? And you want to elect a President who's staunchly pro-choice for his Vice President she wants to take that choice away from you.

My point was the benefits of a comprehensive sex ed program, as is in place in California and elsewhere. It is also not directly a pro-choice versus pro-life debate. But Texas's program is a direct result of its staunchly pro-life stance and emphasis on abstinence.

Good parenting or not, sex amongst teenagers is very high (DocLightning quotes 100%) and this means officials should promote responsible sex education so that teenagers are aware of risks and options, including contraceptives. As for the consequences, well ask the folks in Texas.



"It's okay to cheat, if you just really don't like to lose."
User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12090 posts, RR: 49
Reply 16, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2695 times:



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 13):
Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 11):
Like my Mom always said, invest in education that is one thing that can not be taken away from you.

We are all only one brain injury away from loosing it all.

Well if we leave it up to the parents then you can't lose what you never HAD!



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12090 posts, RR: 49
Reply 17, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2695 times:



Quoting JM017 (Reply 15):
My point was the benefits of a comprehensive sex ed program, as is in place in California and elsewhere. It is also not directly a pro-choice versus pro-life debate. But Texas's program is a direct result of its staunchly pro-life stance and emphasis on abstinence.

Good parenting or not, sex amongst teenagers is very high (DocLightning quotes 100%) and this means officials should promote responsible sex education so that teenagers are aware of risks and options, including contraceptives. As for the consequences, well ask the folks in Texas.

Oh I agree with you a 110%



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2683 times:

Waiting till marriage, before having sex, goes against nature.

It's only because of recent social changes, recent and dramatic increases in the average human's lifespan, and economic reasons, that we have pushed the child bearing years back 1 to 2 decades further into our lives.

There is a reason why we develop sexually at ~12 - nature intended for us to be scr*wing like bunnies! But we fight that instinct, and push it back further and further. And while there is a good reason for having children later in life, it still does not change the fact that we are denying a basic natural mandate.

So all of this crap about immorality, sin, irresponsibility, and indecency is just that: crap.

We're sexual creatures and we suppose to be getting it on from a young age. Teach teens how to scr*w safely, and stop trying to act like the natural mandate does not exist.

-UH60


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19385 posts, RR: 58
Reply 19, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2638 times:



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 18):
It's only because of recent social changes, recent and dramatic increases in the average human's lifespan, and economic reasons, that we have pushed the child bearing years back 1 to 2 decades further into our lives.

Yup. As recently as 300 years ago, 16 was a perfectly reasonable age to have your first baby. And you would have them early and often. Why? Because the average lifespan was 30. And the infant mortality rates were astronomical. Heck, 30% of routine births today would result in death for mom, baby, or both without modern medical intervention. In the past, this would happen to almost 30% of first-time mothers. EVERYONE knew a woman who had died in childbirth.

People have NEVER routinely waited until 30 to start having sex. But people today routinely wait until 30 to get married. We've delayed adulthood now back to age 25. But as recently as 100 years ago, an 18yo could be a father and a husband and that was nothing unusual.

You might think that people should just keep their zippers closed and that is your right. The fact is that they won't. So dispense with the wishful thinking and start dealing in reality. You can't stop people from having sex, so try to delay it and then prepare and sexually empower children so that they view sex as what it is and should be and not as 1) proof of adulthood 2) a porn movie 3) a way to get pregnant at 15.


User currently offlineGosimeon From Ireland, joined Jan 2008, 663 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2631 times:

Interesting stats, which highlight the blatantly obvious; if you don't educate young people on sex, they'll still do it, just with greater consequences.

The whole "it's up to the parents, not the state" attitude has some merit, but it's the state that pays the price when some young one pops a few because her uber-conservative parents did not think she should hear about sex until she was 21 or something.

This thing isn't an issue here in Ireland, or the rest of Europe from what I can see. Lets them hear the facts on sex, contraception, abortion and abstinence when they are in school, in their early teens, when they're going to be talking about stuff like this anyway. It should be a non-issue; education is good, ignorance is bad!


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26361 posts, RR: 76
Reply 21, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2628 times:



Quoting Mdsh00 (Thread starter):

Thoughts?

I think the vast majority of those who have posted here have absolutely the right idea. There is no place for abstinence-only education in our society.

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 4):
This should be the responsibility of the parents.

The problem is, like luv2fly said, that when parents don't teach, society ends up having to deal with the consequences. Not only am I talking about things like welfare and the like, but also the problems that come along with children raised in poverty.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):

Yes, abstinence is the best way to avoid these consequences, but, as Jocelyn Elders said: "Abstinence breaks a lot more easily than condoms do!"

Dr. Elders is an excellent doctor and scholar. She should have never been force out of her job.

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 11):

That might be true though it becomes the responsibility of the state when the parents drop the ball, no pun intended.

Absolutely agree.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 18):
Waiting till marriage, before having sex, goes against nature.

This is very true. While it is totally natural for humans to pair bond, it is also completely natural for humans to have sex largely for recreation, not procreation.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 18):

So all of this crap about immorality, sin, irresponsibility, and indecency is just that: crap.

The problem is, such tactics have been used to gain hegemony for thousands of years.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineMdsh00 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4124 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2606 times:



Quoting Gosimeon (Reply 20):

How does this play out in a place like Ireland, regarding contraception? I was also under the impression that Abortion is illegal there except in cases of life and death.



"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8942 posts, RR: 40
Reply 23, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2598 times:

I am all for SexEd. I don't know why anyone would be against any kind of education/knowledge. Makes no sense, be that from a religious point of view or not.

But with that said,

Quoting Mdsh00 (Thread starter):
In fact, a 2001 Unicef report said that the United States teenage birthrate was higher than any other member of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development. The U.S. tied Hungary for the most abortions. This was in spite of the fact that girls in the U.S. were not the most sexually active. Denmark held that title. But, its teenage birthrate was one-sixth of ours, and its teenage abortion rate was half of ours.

Looking at data below in general:

http://www.thenationalcampaign.org/state-data/advanced-search.aspx

Nearly half (~40% in Georgia) of all teen pregnancies are from the Hispanic population, and that is certainly apparent around here in Atlanta. I've read that half of all Latin pregnancies are teen pregnancies in some areas. This is due to ignorance and lack of/poor education back in Latin America, and not just SexEd. So the numbers presented picture an inflated scenario that's quite a bit worse than can really be blamed on the U.S.. But by no means is that to say the numbers are great. This may also be true of other OECD countries with a lot of immigrants.

SexEd is very important. I had my first class when I was in fifth grade.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8400 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2591 times:



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 6):
and an 'opt-out' choice involving the parents. This would allow flexibility as to the variances of religious beliefs in a school,

For argument's sake, why? What do religions have to do with sex education? Do the body parts work differently for the various religions? How about disease transmission, does the disease only happen to certain religions?

The whole point of sex education is to end ignorance. There is no excuse not to know the facts of life... particularly when these kids are physically armed and dangerous so to speak.

The whole point is to get every kid in there, _especially_ the ones whose parents "do not approve." Those are the kids who don't end up knowing the facts. Those kids are the problem that compulsory education (including sex ed) is designed to fix. Otherwise why have schools at all...


25 Mir : Anything else is just denial of reality, and that doesn't serve kids well. Unfortunately, we see this line of thinking in the cultures that still mar
26 Dougloid : And the reason's quite clear, m'good fellow. Back then there was a social stigma attached to not taking responsibility for your mistakes. It no longe
27 JCS17 : It's really amazing how public schools are not allowed to celebrate holidays like Christmas, Valentine's Day, or Easter because they're not inclusive
28 N1120A : Since when? Kids still given Valentines to their friends, Christmas occurs when schools are on break and Easter is on the weekend, and many school di
29 JpetekYXMD80 : Yeah..
30 Marquis : I simply can't understand the problem of having sex education in younger days? Why are so many people of all ages in the US that straitlaced and narr
31 Post contains links HowSwedeitis : Wrong and wrong. And here's why: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/06/op...=Latin%20America%20Abortion&st=cse So, having a kid was what made you grow up
32 Gosimeon : Contraception is available and encouraged. Heck, the Government gives me boxes of condoms every time I go to a gig and when college starts! Abortion
33 KiwiRob : Still illegial in most instances, however it costs next to nothing to jump on a plane or ferry to the UK and sort it out over there. Quite frankly wh
34 Flighty : Sex education is completely unnecessary for children who are medically handicapped and will not be having sex. For the other children... the normal hu
35 DocLightning : Very common misconception. In fact, during residency, I gave a presentation on sexuality and the disabled adolescent. Patients with disabilities are
36 Flighty : Very true, I did not mean to generalize across all disabilities, but merely the (very awkward) subgroup of those who can't won't have sex because it'
37 DocLightning : Betcha he'll discover masturbation. All boys do...
38 Post contains images AircraftGeek : Abstinence only works quite well! Signed,
39 MD11Engineer : Thinking back, I can say the same. No teenage pregnancy at my highschool during the time I was there (and certainly not because the students were abs
40 LAXintl : Put it this way -- while abstinence might not be as successful as many would wish, it is not a reason for Federal funding to be used that encourages a
41 N1120A : The government has no business catering to people's religious beliefs. The government has a very clear and compelling interest in making sure childre
42 Mir : First of all, most people in the country believe that sex education should include both abstinence and various forms of contraception. More teen preg
43 AKiss20 : And a lot of families would rather a health teacher in a public school do it than themselves. What is wrong with having full sex-ed, but with an opt-
44 AirframeAS : I couldn't agree more. The birds and the bees talk should be done regularly between the 6th grade into High school. More pro-active parents would hel
45 Aaron747 : Correct would be an understatement. How so? There are always comments like this thrown around from the sex-ed vilification crowd, with no qualifiers
46 Flighty : I agree, all kids should be gifted with the whole sex ed. What possible relevance could religion have on ... how pregnancy occurs... how STDs are / a
47 LAXintl : I dont believe people or society has a big problem with general sex-ed. The problem has more to do with specific curriculum of what is thought, and ho
48 AKiss20 : But it is also the Federal government's responsibility to respond to the situation at hand, aka the fact that numerous studies suggest that abstinenc
49 Bok269 : It doesn't make any lifestyle preferable. All it does is say, "look, your best bet is to be abstinent, but if you don't, here's what you need to know
50 N1120A : This isn't about "teaching" a "lifestyle". This is about public health. You have that completely wrong. Having things available doesn't encourage the
51 AirframeAS : Use your imagination, genius.
52 Bok269 : You are the one that proposed it, genius. It isn't fair to the kids whose parents never bothered to have the talk with them. It isn't fair to the tax
53 AirframeAS : Blame the thread starter, not me. Life isnt fair. But at the end, the parents are last line of defense on the issue & it is their responsibility, ful
54 Bok269 : You could make the same argument about general education. Its the parent's responsibility to ensure their kids get to school, right? The government d
55 AirframeAS : The law is the law. If the kid does not get to school, the parents are to blame and put in jail. Plus in Washington State, there is a law that jails
56 Bok269 : That's my point. Parents SHOULD send their students to school. That doesn't mean they all do. The same goes for sex ed. The parents should help the p
57 AirframeAS : Then why are we arguing for?
58 DocLightning : The large portion of the population that you claim exists actually is a small portion of the population. Irrespective, it is their right to choose to
59 DocLightning : You know, that's what she thinks. And then her 17yo daughter is pregnant. I'm surprised nobody had made a bigger deal about this. See, I care about i
60 UH60FtRucker : How can anyone simply say, "Oh it's the parent's responsibility", and then wash their hands of the matter? Stop and think about WHO is getting pregnan
61 DocLightning : This reminds me of the rather touching family whose newborn baby I cared for one day. The baby was 2 weeks old. Mom was 15. Grandma was 30. Great-Gra
62 Jush : Spot on. There you go. We're not as open-minded as we should be and teen-pregnancy is a topic here, too. Thankfully were not so puritanian and we fac
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