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Transsexual Wins Discrimination Case In US  
User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12472 posts, RR: 37
Posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2577 times:

A transsexual former special forces commander has won an important anti-discrimination case, against the US Library of Congress, which withdrew an offer of employment when it discovered that the applicant was going through gender reassignment.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/09/19/transsexual.discrimination/

This is a very important case, particularly in light of the fact that the proposed US anti-discrimination legislation, ENDA, will not provide any protection for transsexuals (and indeed, significantly, the defendant's attorneys in this case raised the fact that there was no anti- discrimination legislation protecting TS people). It is unacceptable that clearly able people, willing to contribute and capable of doing so in a wide variety of areas, can simply be cast aside due to the prejudices of others. Let's hope this case is accepted as a leading precedent in this field.

Whatever one may think about transsexuals - and clearly many people have a negative view, it is very important that no one should be a "safe target" for discrimination.

57 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJohnboy From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 2592 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2564 times:

Excellent news.
More power to her.
 bigthumbsup 


User currently offlineUal747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2562 times:

I don't see why people have issues with Transgender. Most transgendered people do it because they have a deep rooted sense that they are not supposed to be either a male, or female, depending of course on what sex they are before their operations.

They don't do it for fun, like piercing your nose.

So much discrimination goes on in this country based on the fear that we are all going to turn into psycho sex killers that rape 4 year olds. At least that is what some would have you believe.

UAL


User currently offlineBlackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2547 times:

UAL747,

Very good point.


Blackbird


User currently offlineJmc1975 From Israel, joined Sep 2000, 3277 posts, RR: 15
Reply 4, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2545 times:

Hmmm....well unfortunately this just sets a precedent for things to come. Before you know it, rapists and murders will be getting off scott free because some of these socially enlightened new-era judges will dismiss their actions as merely personal expression.


.......
User currently offlineUal747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2536 times:



Quoting Jmc1975 (Reply 4):
Hmmm....well unfortunately this just sets a precedent for things to come

How does chopping your own penis off, turning it into a vagina, and taking hormones to grow breast have anything to do with hurting someone else, intentionally, without their consent?

UAL


User currently offlineJmc1975 From Israel, joined Sep 2000, 3277 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2517 times:



Quoting Ual747 (Reply 5):
How does chopping your own penis off, turning it into a vagina, and taking hormones to grow breast have anything to do with hurting someone else, intentionally, without their consent?

My point exactly.  Smile It's become a viscious cycle and a downward spiral.



.......
User currently onlineType-Rated From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 5042 posts, RR: 19
Reply 7, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2516 times:

Back in the late 70's / early 80's Eastern had a Captain that underwent a sex change without notifying Eastern ahead of time. Once he had the surgery done he let the airline know about it. Of course EA fired him right then and there saying that she was no longer the person the airline hired. So the now she filed a discrimination lawsuit against EA stating that she was in fact the same person they had hired and while her sex changed, her skill set didn't. It took many years in the courtroom but in the end the complaintant won. I think she got to fly a few flights with EA before they folded. But the other pilots didn't like it.


Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
User currently offlineBlackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2510 times:

Jmc1975,

I don't understand... how would any of those things which would NOT hurt anybody else intentionally without consent become a vicious cycle and downward spiral?


Blackbird


User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12472 posts, RR: 37
Reply 9, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2500 times:



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 8):
I don't understand... how would any of those things which would NOT hurt anybody else intentionally without consent become a vicious cycle and downward spiral?

As far as I'm concerned, the downward cycle begins when we allow people with small, closed minds to use religion and "morality" as an excuse to shut certain people out of society, to deny them protection or dignity or the same basic rights as everyone else has to participate in and benefit from society.

Society gains from diversity; it doesn't lose. It loses when it allows the small-minded and censorious to run roughshod over its principles and attempt to decide who should and should not have access to the basic protections and dignity afforded as a result of being a citizen of a free society.


User currently offlinePSA53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3069 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2499 times:



Quoting Ual747 (Reply 2):
I don't see why people have issues with Transgender.

It's a "shock to the system" in which many cannot accept or conform to it automatically.I do not on a personal basis agree to sex changes,but what one do to him/her is their decision but understand they're stepping on toes, too.Let's be real about it.






.



Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
User currently offlineUal747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2486 times:



Quoting PSA53 (Reply 10):
but what one do to him/her is their decision but understand they're stepping on toes, too.Let's be real about it.

So next time Pamela Anderson augments her breasts or Joan Rivers gets another facelift, they are stepping on toes?

The persons SSN doubtfully changes, and in the US you ARE allowed to change your name to whatever you want, how are they stepping on any toes? Because they freak you out? And they aren't hurting anyone, and they deserve to have equal protection under the law, male or female, or both.

You can give a reason ANYONE shouldn't have equal protection or ANY reason why ANYONE could be stepping on people's toes. Most of us know quite a lot about airplanes, but are we stepping on toes because we know what flap setting is used on a 777 for landing? Does that make us possibly criminals for possibly flying planes into buildings? (Though I hear flaps up/clean wing is the best way to do this).

UAL


User currently offlineMidcon385 From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 570 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2477 times:



Quoting Kaitak (Reply 9):
As far as I'm concerned, the downward cycle begins when we allow people with small, closed minds to use religion and "morality" as an excuse to shut certain people out of society, to deny them protection or dignity or the same basic rights as everyone else has to participate in and benefit from society.

Society gains from diversity; it doesn't lose. It loses when it allows the small-minded and censorious to run roughshod over its principles and attempt to decide who should and should not have access to the basic protections and dignity afforded as a result of being a citizen of a free society.

I agree 100%.

Tim



MidContinent Airlines: We Know How To Fly!
User currently offlinePSA53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3069 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2467 times:



Quoting Ual747 (Reply 11):
Because they freak you out? And they aren't hurting anyone, and they deserve to have equal protection under the law, male or female, or both.

You can't tell me that they didn't weigh the consequences of their decision.Or,are they that naive and igornart that all of us were expected to take this as normal.Friends,parents and employer?They knew what the reactions were going to be.



Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
User currently offlineVikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10031 posts, RR: 26
Reply 14, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2458 times:
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Quoting PSA53 (Reply 10):
I do not on a personal basis agree to sex changes,but what one do to him/her is their decision but understand they're stepping on toes, too.Let's be real about it.

No, they're not.

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 13):
You can't tell me that they didn't weigh the consequences of their decision.Or,are they that naive and igornart that all of us were expected to take this as normal.Friends,parents and employer?They knew what the reactions were going to be.

So what? They cannot and do not control your (or anyone else's) reactions. They're not stepping on toes - you're planting your foot right where they're about to step.

Think about that for awhile.



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlinePSA53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3069 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2442 times:



Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 14):
Quoting PSA53 (Reply 10):
I do not on a personal basis agree to sex changes,but what one do to him/her is their decision but understand they're stepping on toes, too.Let's be real about it.

No, they're not.

Well.I spoke my peace.Like in reply7,EA,as exampled,hired him.Not her. Employers would have a trouble with this issue.

If I were the judge,and it was the law to protect the defendant,then I applaud it.My personal feelings don't count.But society's reaction is a another matter.



Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
User currently offlineN867DA From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1008 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2427 times:



Quoting Jmc1975 (Reply 6):
It's become a viscious cycle and a downward spiral.

...what spiral?



A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
User currently offlineUal747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2413 times:



Quoting PSA53 (Reply 15):
Well.I spoke my peace.Like in reply7,EA,as exampled,hired him.Not her. Employers would have a trouble with this issue.

According to sexual discrimination laws, that the US Government probably has in place, they can't hire a man over a woman just because he's a man. Or vice versa. So in the EA case, it should have been a non-issue since the person has the exact same CAPABILITIES that EA hired her for. I think it has more to do with people not being open-minded enough to have a professional working relationship with a trangendered person. And whoever those people are, I sure hope they are not concentrating what's beneath the pants of pilots and instead trying to line that L-1011 up on approach.

I fail to see how having a transgendered person working for you would hurt your company in any way. Unless you want to start pulling those "Christian values" from your rear end.

UAL


User currently onlineType-Rated From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 5042 posts, RR: 19
Reply 18, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2399 times:



Quoting Ual747 (Reply 17):
I fail to see how having a transgendered person working for you would hurt your company in any way. Unless you want to start pulling those "Christian values" from your rear end.

Remember this case was in the late 70's, early 80's. People had a much different train of thought back then.
Another issue is who is willing to fly with a transexual? Pilots are a pretty straight minded bunch, especially back then. Most of them are ex-military. If you are a pilot and other pilots don't want to fly with you it causes "problems". Eventually the Chief Pilot will investigate why a certain pilot has other pilots that won't fly with them. It's much easier to get rid of the problem than getting rid of the effect if you get my drift.
For those interested here is a link to the Eastern Lawsuitt.....

http://www.transgenderlaw.org/cases/ulane.htm



Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
User currently offlinePSA53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3069 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2395 times:



Quoting Ual747 (Reply 17):
According to sexual discrimination laws, that the US Government probably has in place, they can't hire a man over a woman just because he's a man

And discrimination against women was still a major issue in those days.

Quoting Ual747 (Reply 17):
I think it has more to do with people not being open-minded enough to have a professional working relationship with a trangendered person

And the natural human reaction of Bill becoming Billie.(Sounds like a Lou Reed Song)(LOL).
It's not close minded but sudden shock.Will it work itself out by his/her associates.Good question?Are they at fault and can be held accountable?No,IMHO.

Quoting Ual747 (Reply 17):
d whoever those people are, I sure hope they are not concentrating what's beneath the pants of pilots and instead trying to line that L-1011 up on approach.

Agreed.



Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8153 posts, RR: 26
Reply 20, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2391 times:



Quoting Jmc1975 (Reply 4):
Hmmm....well unfortunately this just sets a precedent for things to come. Before you know it, rapists and murders will be getting off scott free because some of these socially enlightened new-era judges will dismiss their actions as merely personal expression.

Violent crime is never "personal expression". Only a deranged person would think so. Stop making things up.

Quoting N867DA (Reply 16):
...what spiral?

Exactly.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineJmc1975 From Israel, joined Sep 2000, 3277 posts, RR: 15
Reply 21, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2371 times:



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 20):
Violent crime is never "personal expression". Only a deranged person would think so.

That's why wise choices need to be made when making upcoming judge selections.



.......
User currently offlineUal747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2364 times:



Quoting Jmc1975 (Reply 21):
That's why wise choices need to be made when making upcoming judge selections.

???

I think what people are telling you is that there's a HUGE difference between a transgendered person than a murderer. Giving a trangendered equal rights with other humans shouldn't be discouraged. It does no harm to anyone else.

How does this person, or any person say at your company affect your ability to do your job or your company to do theirs?

UAL


User currently offlineJmc1975 From Israel, joined Sep 2000, 3277 posts, RR: 15
Reply 23, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2353 times:

Quoting Ual747 (Reply 22):
I think what people are telling you is that there's a HUGE difference between a transgendered person than a murderer. Giving a trangendered equal rights with other humans shouldn't be discouraged. It does no harm to anyone else.

I agree. But what we can't afford to overlook here is the overwhelming trajectory taking place in our society that has and will continue to blur the lines. What may or may not be perceived as harm has changed dramatically over the past few decades... just look at abortion. Back in the 50s & 60s, it was unconscionable to the vast majority of society to murder an unborn child...now, it's becoming widely accepted as a "choice". What guarantee is there to stop us from eventually being forced to accept murder or rape as a "choice" made by someone who may have been disadvantaged or had a rough go at life?

[Edited 2008-09-20 17:21:36]


.......
User currently offlineMham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3647 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2341 times:



Quoting Ual747 (Reply 5):

How does chopping your own penis off, turning it into a vagina, and taking hormones to grow breast have anything to do with hurting someone else, intentionally, without their consent?

Certainly nothing, but an employer might want to consider the mental stability of one who would do that.


25 Yfbflyer : Abortion was around way before the 50's and 60's.
26 AKiss20 : Actually, back in the 50s, abortions happened all the time, just not legally. Instead they were done in back allies with a coat hanger, or by the wom
27 Mir : You are comparing rape and murder, which inflict physical harm on an unwilling victim, with a sex change, which does not. Your slippery slope is a fa
28 Post contains images Jmc1975 : It's been around since the beginning of time, but it didn't start getting the socially acceptable, even glamorous "choice" stigma until after Roe v.
29 Mir : I cannot guarantee that it isn't. But you can't guarantee that it is. What I can guarantee, however, is that you will find more people who agree with
30 Jmc1975 : It's not about how many people you can get to agree with you, but rather it's more about the deterioration of society and whether or not society is a
31 Mir : You say that there is a downward spiral taking place. You cannot prove that to be true. I'm sorry, but despite what strong fundamentalist views you m
32 Ual747 : I don't think any woman thinks "Hey, you know what would go great with this Gucci purse? A big fat abortion." Most women experience severe depression
33 Jmc1975 : As ridiculous and radical as this may sound, we will all see one day who is right and who is wrong, and with great comfort, I look forward to that da
34 Ual747 : Once you set the precedent that blacks can use the same public restrooms as whites, what's the next step? Murder is okay? UAL
35 JetMech : I think this excuse, and the insanity plea has already been used by many people in an attempt to get lighter treatment after they have committed murd
36 HowSwedeitis : Many people who have a serious problem with transgendered persons usually have some issues of their own... Is there something you would like to tell
37 Mir : One of the best examples of getting in the way of other people's agendas that they really have no business getting in the way of. -Mir
38 N867DA : Like it or not, you don't get to choose the morals of future generations. What your kids (and their kids) believe and what you believe will almost cer
39 Post contains links Dougloid : That's as may be, but you and I both know that the religion that lays claim to the greatest store of intolerance the world has yet seen doesn't have
40 Mir : The religion that tries the most in the United States to put its fingers where they shouldn't be does. -Mir
41 Vikkyvik : That's about the most logical post I've seen in this thread. Be smug about it if you want to. Many of the rest of us probably don't particularly care
42 Ihadapheo : You are 100% correct, there is a deterioration of society.The number of people who think that only their point of view on a given issue is correct. T
43 AirframeAS : I disagree. There are chinese airlines that have a lot of FA's who are male-to-female transsexuals. And the chinese airlines know about it, and see n
44 N1120A : Why? So they can conform to your bigoted ideology as opposed to acting, as they always have, as a check on tyranical majoritarianism and in defense o
45 Misbeehavin : Why? So they can turn the country into your bigoted, narrow minded perception of what the world should be like? Sh'yeah... You can keep dreaming!
46 Mir : EA hired a pilot. Doesn't matter what gender the pilot is as long as they have the skills that EA needs. That's what equal opportunity employment is
47 Sbworcs : Who's toes? We have a pre-op transexual at our head office - no one has any problems as far as I am aware. They still work for us and have been promo
48 PSA53 : Yes there would.Employees may have psychological effect if a transgender changed while employed,meaning(Example) David is dead,and now the employees
49 PSA53 : [ Did the transsexual have the change during employment?If not,there should be no problem in the workplace.If so,did the employer conduct awareness me
50 Mir : Oh, poor them. If you're talking about helping the other employees cope with the "stress", then I agree with you. The other employees should be matur
51 AirframeAS : It does not matter. The EOE laws are prevalent (sp?), IIRC. And I believe (I could very well be wrong) that the ADA protects them as well.
52 Sbworcs : She is still Pre-Op at the moment but yes the change has happened since she started working. Our employer has not had specific awareness meetings has
53 RJdxer : Yes, why expect standards, they are so last century. BTW, if the cleaners changes the way they clean your clothes and you don't like that, do you thi
54 Ihadapheo : ah yes the dark ages of 1998.. I would rather live in a world full of stadards of the last century (circa 1998) than the archaic standards of the 140
55 Mir : You're comparing performance of an employee to the gender preference of an employee, which is apples to oranges. If this employee's change of gender
56 RJdxer : If I read the story correctly the person wasn't an employee, just under consideration for employment. So I say again, if you can decide that you don'
57 Dougloid : I won't argue the point but there's a considerable spread there-it's not uniform at all unless you lump Fred Phelps and the Unitarians all in one big
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