Sponsor Message:
Non Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Russia Unveils Plan To Modernize Nuclear Arsenal!  
User currently offlineStasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3280 posts, RR: 6
Posted (5 years 10 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1738 times:

Comrades Putin and Medvedev are rattling their sabers again. The New York Times reported today that Russia is providing the Venezuelan military with a billion dollar USD loan to upgrade Chavez's military capabilities. Venezuela has already purchased $4.4 billion USD in military equipment from Russia in the last 3 years.

Furthermore, "Russian president, Dmitri A. Medvedev declared that by 2020 Russia would construct new types of warships, including nuclear submarines carrying cruise missiles, and an unspecified space defense system.

"A guaranteed nuclear deterrent system for various military and political circumstances must be provided by 2020," Mr. Medvedev said, in comments reported by Reuters.

"Large-scale construction of new types of warships is planned, primarily of nuclear submarines armed with cruise missiles, and multi-purpose submarines," he was quoted as saying. “A system of air and space defense will be created.”

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/27/world/americas/27russia.html?hp

This is a very clear sign that the frozen conflict known as the Cold War has just melted, IMHO.  irked 


"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineSoyuzavia From Australia, joined Jun 2005, 594 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 10 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1717 times:

It has nothing to do with an arms race, unless of course NATO is afraid of something. It has everything to do with upgrading their defence capabilities, which is something has been a long time coming. Of course, many would prefer that Russia not have a single weapon to defend itself with, but that ain't happening. Putin announced it a year ago, and Medvedev is following thru with it.

And the beauty of it is, the ships will be in all likelihood built in Ukraine, if offers are accepted by the Ukrainians....which they will, seeing as their US/EU friends don't give them any economic support.


User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 2, posted (5 years 10 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1684 times:



Quoting Soyuzavia (Reply 1):
It has nothing to do with an arms race, unless of course NATO is afraid of something.

Then why is Russia renewing its nuclear arsenal? Is Russia afraid of NATO, specifically the United States?


User currently offlineHkg82 From Hong Kong, joined Apr 2002, 1266 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (5 years 10 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1616 times:

Nope there is not going to be another Cold War. Russia's economic strength simply won't allow for it, not now or even in the future.

Militarily they're simply trying to catch up for the lost years between 1990-2000.

The US has nothing to worry about. Why should they? America has military bases in practically every corner of the world, not to mention unrivalled unprecedented nuclear and conventional military primacy.

Hkg82.


User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 4, posted (5 years 10 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1610 times:

So what's the issue ? - Russia is modernizing it's sometimes out-dated arsenal to keep up with today's technology .A normal process that does not imply a change in foreign politics or defence-strategy.Why is automatically everything dealing with Russia leading to suspicion in this forum,while military expenditure in the West is just normal business?
The cold war is still very much alive on a.net ...



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineHkg82 From Hong Kong, joined Apr 2002, 1266 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (5 years 10 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1604 times:

"The cold war is still very much alive on a.net ..."

Haha, too true! There is so much hot air about Russia and China it's ridiculous.

Everything needs to be seen in perspective.....I guess ppl here are just too right wing/neoconservative or just plain damn paranoid.

Hkg82.


User currently offlineMoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3866 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (5 years 10 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1576 times:

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 2):

Then why is Russia renewing its nuclear arsenal? Is Russia afraid of NATO, specifically the United States?

Russia is renewing its nuclear deterrent precisely because both the US and the UK are renewing their deterrents.

Preliminary support fro renewing the UKs Trident deterrent was passed by a majoriyt of 248 in 2006, and US plans for renewing their deterrent, called Complex 2030, was put forward in 2003, with the initial stages of upgrading production capability being put into progress in 2006.

So I don't understand the 'bad Russia, naughty Russia' vibes I'm getting from some members of this thread.

[Edited 2008-09-27 06:31:19]

User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26846 posts, RR: 58
Reply 7, posted (5 years 10 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1565 times:



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 4):
Russia is modernizing it's sometimes out-dated arsenal to keep up with today's technology .A normal process that does not imply a change in foreign politics or defence-strategy.Why is automatically everything dealing with Russia leading to suspicion in this forum,while military expenditure in the West is just normal business?
The cold war is still very much alive on a.net ...

Very true and Russia has every right to do this. Is there a big deal everytime the USA wants to renew its arsenal to kill Muslims in the Middle East?


User currently offlineConnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 8, posted (5 years 10 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1556 times:



Quoting StasisLAX (Thread starter):
This is a very clear sign that the frozen conflict known as the Cold War has just melted, IMHO.

Take a valium.  Yeah sure

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 4):
So what's the issue ? - Russia is modernizing it's sometimes out-dated arsenal to keep up with today's technology .A normal process that does not imply a change in foreign politics or defence-strategy.Why is automatically everything dealing with Russia leading to suspicion in this forum,while military expenditure in the West is just normal business?
The cold war is still very much alive on a.net ...

 checkmark  Paranoia persists despite much evidence to the contrary. The West is indeed updating its' nuclear arsenal, as Beaucaire points out, so why no commentary on the implied threat to Russia that those actions pose ? These weapons actually do age, you know.

And, Russia is cooperating with the Western powers in trying to reach some kind of deal in the Middle East and in North Korea, so I wouldn't say that the Russians are necessarily being confrontational.

Let's also bear in mind the Monroe Doctrine which more or less says to the rest of the world that what happens in the Western hemisphere is America's business and no one else's. The US has shown no reluctance to intervene in other countries affairs (Mexico, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Panama, Chile, DR, Grenada, to name some) so Russian moves in the Caucasus region should be judged by the same yardstick.

I think more to the point is that Mr Putin, who is still in charge, is intent on building up Russia's image in the world and in the eyes of its' own citizens, and currently he has the economic wherewithall to do so.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineStasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3280 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (5 years 10 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1482 times:



Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 8):
I think more to the point is that Mr Putin, who is still in charge, is intent on building up Russia's image in the world and in the eyes of its' own citizens, and currently he has the economic wherewithall to do so.

Comrade Putin has become a strong nationalist over the past several years, criminalizing internal dissent, and is flexing Russia's military muscle in places like nations like Georgia, Moldova, and Ukraine. Remember, the First Deputy Prime Minister of Russia is on record in the press for favoring the deployment of nuclear arms in places like Kaliningrad. The level of Russian spying on foreign governments, especially within the UK, has reached or exceeded Cold War levels. This action, in a time where U.S. and British intelligence should be pouring all of its resources into counter-terrorism efforts, is not the actions of a reliable partner.  irked 

Alot of this has to do with Putin trying to satisfy the burning desires of the Russian high military command to rebuild its military complex and return Russia to super-power military status as quickly as possible. It is to soothe its military of its historical paranoia about their nation being overrun by the West, in my opinion.



"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlineTheCol From Canada, joined Jan 2007, 2038 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (5 years 10 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 1469 times:



Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 8):
And, Russia is cooperating with the Western powers in trying to reach some kind of deal in the Middle East and in North Korea, so I wouldn't say that the Russians are necessarily being confrontational.

No deal will be made that'll spoil any profit that the Russia can make off our adversaries.



No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 11, posted (5 years 10 months 1 day ago) and read 1437 times:

The underlying feeling in the Western hemisphere is still that "we" -speak the non-communists- are the "good" power" and "they"-speak Russia and it's friends,are the"bad" power.That has not changed in 50 years and it will take another generation to change-if ever.
Imagine Russia would have been the one power invading Iraq !!! The screams all over the globe as villain aggressor,expansionists,evil force etc. would fill the media in an constant flow.
The ones who complain about Russia spying more than during the cold-war, don't be blue-eyed. The "west" does spy most likely even more so on anything that moves,speaks,communicates,spends money,surfes the net- so singling out Russia as bad spy-nation makes me laugh. And if you really want to getinto this king of arguments,why do the Israelis spy so heavily on the West ??
It's time to consider the past tense relations as revolved and even if Russia has indicated it would always consider the Caucasian regions as their turf and sphere of influence-so what !
If the Caucasians want to be or remain allies of Moscow,it's their decision.Why does the whole globe have to dance after the drumming out of Washington ? The most recent Wall-street disasters are a slight indication that not all what is "Western" must be great...



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineConnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 12, posted (5 years 10 months 20 hours ago) and read 1407 times:



Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 9):
The level of Russian spying on foreign governments, especially within the UK, has reached or exceeded Cold War levels.

1 - I would be way more concerned with the level of Israeli spying on the US (and the rest of the West) than the Russians; and

2 - The Chinese would be a close 2nd. And frequently by not necessarily placing Chinese nationals in place but by leaning on American (or Canadian, etc)- born of Chinese ethnicity who have relatives 'back home'. There have been instances of staff at Los Alamos with 'Q' clearance who have been compromised.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 13, posted (5 years 10 months 19 hours ago) and read 1388 times:



Quoting StasisLAX (Thread starter):
This is a very clear sign that the frozen conflict known as the Cold War has just melted, IMHO.

Bit of a 'generation gap' here, StasisLAX.

The 'Cold War' began almost as soon as the WW2 guns fell quiet in early 1945. The Russians made clear their intention of holding on to virtually all the territory they had captured in 1945. As Churchill (who saw what was happening more clearly than most) said, in 1946 (at, of all places, Westminster College, Fulton, Missouri, in the presence of President Truman):-

"From Stettin in the Baltic to Trieste in the Adriatic an iron curtain has descended across the Continent. Behind that line lie all the capitals of the ancient states of Central and Eastern Europe. Warsaw, Berlin, Prague, Vienna, Budapest, Belgrade, Bucharest and Sofia, all these famous cities and the populations around them lie in what I must call the Soviet sphere, and all are subject in one form or another, not only to Soviet influence but to a very high and, in some cases, increasing measure of control from Moscow."

http://www.historyguide.org/europe/churchill.html

That was the origin of the 'Cold War' - a period, extending from the time of the Greek Civil War and the Berlin Airlift and the Korean War and the Malayan Emergency through events like the Hungarian Uprising, the Cuban Missile crisis, the rise and fall of 'Solidarity' in Poland - all sorts of crises, literally too numerous to list. Both sides 'invested' in huge conventional and nuclear arsenals. The people of the USA and Western Europe faced the ills of high taxes, conscription, and various other forms of 'austerity' in the name of 'defence' - the people of Eastern Europe faced far more severe 'inconveniences' (like being ruled by the KGB and its toadies).

And, of course, both sides built up huge arsenals of nukes, aimed at each other's major cities. All the ordinary people on both sides lived in the shadow of knowing that their lives could end, literally 'in a flash,' after only as little as the famous 'four-minute warning.'

Thankfully, that all ended pretty soon after satellite TV, and other communication breakthroughs, revealed to the people of the Warsaw Pact countries just how impoverished and under-privileged they all were, compared to their US and Western European counterparts. A guy named Mikhail Gorbachov was the first Russian leader to grasp this - and, to his credit, President Reagan 'read the signs' correctly, met him halfway, and negotiated a peace. The 'Cold War' ended with bewildering speed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_War

That proved to be a half-measure, though. Because neither side dismantled their nuclear sites. So it remained open to either side to 'go to readiness' at a few hours' notice. Furthermore, the United States has recently taken advantage of the break-up of the former USSR to establish a ring of bases all round Russia, and absorb as many as possible of the previously Russian-dominated satellites into NATO. So the Russians have every reason to feel threatened.

And times have changed. First of all, as I said, it is Russia - not NATO - that now considers itself threatened. Secondly, it is Russia, not the USA, that feels (through its virtual monopoly of oil and natural gas supplies to Europe) that it has the economic whiphand, at least compared to the 1929-style economic crisis that the USA is currently enduring.

So, chum, you're wrong in talking about 'the Cold War 'melting.' It 'melted' 20-odd years ago. What you're talking about is another bout of 'Global Freezing.' 'Cold War Two.'

At least the Second Cold War won't cost me personally the same amount of boredom, wet feet, low pay, and occasional terror that the first one did. I'm a country mile over military age, and if they look up my record they'll find that I was never a great deal of use anyway. And I'm retired. And I live in Australia nowadays.

I'd still make you welcome if you ever finish up here, though. That's always possible, in geographical terms - given a nuclear holocaust. Especially if, when you're drafted, you finish up in the US Navy.

If you haven't seen the Gregory Pack/Ava Gardner film "On The Beach," have a look at it - and you'll realise why......

http://classic-film-dramas.suite101....rticle.cfm/movie_on_the_beach_1959



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineAeroflot777 From Russia, joined Mar 2004, 3006 posts, RR: 27
Reply 14, posted (5 years 10 months 16 hours ago) and read 1353 times:



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 4):
.Why is automatically everything dealing with Russia leading to suspicion in this forum,while military expenditure in the West is just normal business?

Because A.net is full of members making extrememly uneducated comments.

Quoting Hkg82 (Reply 5):
I guess ppl here are just too right wing/neoconservative or just plain damn paranoid.

Paranoid is not the word...

Quoting Moo (Reply 6):
So I don't understand the 'bad Russia, naughty Russia' vibes I'm getting from some members of this thread.

Look above.


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 15, posted (5 years 10 months 3 hours ago) and read 1295 times:



Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 14):
Quoting Moo (Reply 6):
So I don't understand the 'bad Russia, naughty Russia' vibes I'm getting from some members of this thread.

It was ever thus, I'm afraid. As one example, pretty well everyone (including me) refers to the 'Cuban Missile Crisis' in just those terms. In fact, from the Russian viewpoint, it was the 'Turkish Missile Crisis' - a response to the fact that the United States had chosen to emplace nuclear IRBMs in Turkey, a mere 15 minutes' flight from Moscow...........

All that said, though, can't say that I'm happy about the way things are developing. On the one hand, the USA is 'doing a Turkey' again - ringing Russia with new bases, from Poland all the way round to Kirghistan. On the other, Russia is rapidly building up alliances in South America, and has reached the stage of conducting joint naval manoeuvres in the region.

In an odd way, any modern-day US/Russia confrontation would be more frightening than it's 1960s counterpart. In those days, the assumption was that - given that the primary objective of starting a war is usually to capture territory - the first phase of any Russian attack would almost certainly use 'conventional' weapons. Logical enough, what would have been the point of capturing thousands of square miles of smoking radio-active ruins full of corpses? And in those days both sides had large and well-equipped armies and air forces all deployed and ready on both sides of the Iron Curtain.

So the NATO plan was for a conventional phase consisting, on their side, of a 'fighting withdrawal.' It was generally reckoned that that phase would occupy something like four or five days. At the end of that phase, either we'd have inflicted so many casualties on them that they stopped attacking; or they'd have kicked us (or what was left of us) out of Continental Europe.

So it was assumed that the issue of possible use of nukes would not arise until the outcome of the initial land war was known. And that the decision to use them or not would lie with the loser on the ground (the Russians, of course, no-one was allowed even to think that we might lose, still less say anything like that out loud.......)

The further assumption was that the losing side would see no point in taking the 'smoking ruins' route, and would offer a ceasefire on the best terms they could get.

Thing is, nowadays, neither Russia nor NATO has anything like enough troops or aircraft to fight a WW2-style Battle of Europe. So, if there ever IS a confrontation, both sides will have to 'fast-forward' to an immediate (and mutual) nuclear holocaust. Reminds me eerily of Obama's comment to McCain in the recent debate (albeit in a different context); "...you're using a hatchet where you need a scalpel."

Although, of course, using nukes to settle quarrels over places as insignificant as Georgia would be more akin to using a sledgehammer to mend a watch........



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineStasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3280 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (5 years 10 months 3 hours ago) and read 1292 times:



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 11):
Why does the whole globe have to dance after the drumming out of Washington ?

Beaucaire, with all due respect, the whole globe is not dancing to the beat of Washington's drum much anymore. In an increasing part of the world, they are furiously dancing to Comrade Putin's pounding drum beat.

Here's an article from today's Los Angeles Times regarding rising tensions in Crimea that illustrates my viewpoint:

"Alarmed by Russia's recent war in Georgia, the Ukrainian government has imposed new restrictions on the Russian ships' movements, and suggested raising the rent for the fleet.

The Ukrainian president has called the surrounding Crimean Peninsula -- historically a part of Russia and still home to a majority Russian population -- the most dangerous spot in the country because of separatist sentiment. Russia has responded with icy vows to beef up its military forces in the Black Sea, eagerly showing off to reporters the firepower aboard vessels that were used to blockade Georgia -- and to remind the world of the deep Russian roots in this restive Ukrainian region.

"The military budget will be revisited so that we can exploit these ships better and build new ships," said Dygalo, aboard the Moskva. "The attitude toward the international situation has changed, of course. We understand quite well that Russia came under pressure."

Tensions have been climbing in this sleepy port since the fighting in Georgia brought into sharp focus two clashing interests: Russia's determination to take on a greater role in the former Soviet states, and the Ukrainian government's determination to join the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. The war in Georgia pitted a Western-friendly government against Moscow; meanwhile, Ukraine is painfully divided in loyalties to the West and Russia.

Crimea is Russian-friendly turf. Former Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev gave the peninsula to Ukraine back (in 1954) when the shared flag made the distinction between the two countries relatively unimportant. Many residents of Crimea say they are Russian first, Ukrainian second. They vehemently oppose Ukraine's bid to join NATO, bristle over anti-Moscow rhetoric from national leaders and say they are embittered by government efforts to infuse Crimea with Ukrainian language and culture."

Source: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...ol28-2008sep28,0,822364,full.story

Firstly, the current U.S. administration is far from honorable in my opinion - I am far too much of a realist to blindly believe that the U.S. government (under any administration) is always right in international affairs. And the damn neo-cons in Washington have caused the almost complete destruction of this nation's international prestige and goodwill.

Back to the topic. Crimea is part of the Ukraine's sovereign territory, just as South Ossetia and Abkhazia are (were) part of Georgia's territory. While there is a large Russian population in Crimea (which has long economic and social ties to Russia's Black Sea fleet), Crimea is NOT Russian territory. However, Russia's political and military leadership gleefully fuel the flames of Russian separatists by distributing Russian passports to Russian-heritage Ukrainian citizens in Crimea. Russian naval leaders have repeatedly stated that the Russian navy will never leave Sevastopol (the lease agreement with Ukraine expires in 2017) and, against Ukrainian agreements, they have annouced plans to substantially increase the size of the Black Sea fleet stationed there.

And the icing on the Crimean cake is the statement of the current Mayor of Moscow; he stated to the international press that Crimea "doesn't belong" to Ukraine. The mayor has been declared "persona non grata" by Ukraine's government, for obvious reasons.

There are highly legitimate reasons that some nations are scared to death of the Russian government - they truly face having of parts of their country annexed by Russia.



"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 17, posted (5 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1193 times:



Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 16):
Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 11):
Why does the whole globe have to dance after the drumming out of Washington ?

Beaucaire, with all due respect, the whole globe is not dancing to the beat of Washington's drum much anymore. In an increasing part of the world, they are furiously dancing to Comrade Putin's pounding drum beat.

If you look at the world-economy today,literally ALL countries do suffer from the sub-prime and US Banking disaster fall-out.
The fall of Wallstreet DOES imply extremely negative impact on sound economies in Asia ,Europe and Latin America.
Stock exchanges in Brazil,Germany,France or Thailand crash-but not due to economic mistakes comitted by local industrials but purely as a result of wrong US banking proceedures.SO yes- the world is dancing after US Wallstreet-rules ,if they like it or not .
MBA's all over the world are tought based on US economic rules and principles.
Money clearing is done in New York-you want to transfer a large amount of funds from China to Germany,the funds have to be cleared by US Authorithies and checked if "clean" or not based on criteria established by US rules.In the meantime those clearing-houses have hundreds of billions as free loans at their disposal.



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Putin Wants To Increase Russia's Nuclear Arsenal posted Sat Oct 20 2007 13:01:56 by Blackbird
Ted Kennedy's Plan To Be VP posted Sun Feb 3 2008 12:29:01 by FlyDeltaJets87
Time To Go Nuclear, America! posted Mon Dec 3 2007 08:34:04 by DL021
Tip: Plan To Spend New Year's In NYC posted Sat Jun 23 2007 15:57:34 by Coal
Revealed: A Secret Plan To Save The US By Guiliani posted Sun Apr 15 2007 10:45:52 by Jetjack74
"A Plan To Destroy America" posted Wed Mar 7 2007 08:20:29 by FlyUSCG
UH60FtRucker's 10 Point Plan To Win In Iraq posted Sat Nov 11 2006 18:28:06 by UH60FtRucker
Iran To Accept Nuclear Proposal... posted Sun Jul 16 2006 10:38:51 by Beaucaire
Israel Pm Olmert To Present West Bank Plan To Bush posted Fri May 12 2006 00:07:20 by RJpieces
My Plan To Revolutionize Air Travel posted Sun Feb 12 2006 19:44:14 by Birdwatching