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Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin  
User currently offlineHapppyLandings From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 1875 times:

I just want to test A.netters on the knowledge of history, pertaining to the evolution of Human rights and democracy..... Where did it start and where did it come from.....



I think it will be a surprise to many of you...  Smile



Lets begin the theories

52 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineHapppyLandings From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 1860 times:



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 1):
I have no idea.

Think B.C.E.... Hint.... Alexander the great respected and learned most of his ways, philosophies from leaders (especially one great one) of this region... The first great empire, and instituted it into what is officially and largely incorrectly known as the first democracy, Greece....


User currently offlineTransIsland From Bahamas, joined Mar 2004, 2046 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 1856 times:



Quoting HapppyLandings (Reply 2):
Alexander the great respected and learned most of his ways, philosophies from leaders (especially one great one) of this region... The first great empire, and instituted it into what is officially and largely incorrectly known as the first democracy, Greece....

Greece wasn't a nation state back then, but in it was a territory that is arguably the cradle of democracy: the Polis of Athens. However, Alexander the Great had precious little to do with the development of democracy.

I'd be interested to hear why you say that Greece is "incorrectly known" as the first democracy. True, there were more limitations to the suffrage, but even today we are far from truly universal suffrage, even if people can come up with all sorts of arguments why certain groups of people should not be allowed to vote or be elected.



I'm an aviation expert. I have Sky Juice for breakfast.
User currently offlineHapppyLandings From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 1852 times:



Quoting TransIsland (Reply 3):
Greece wasn't a nation state back then, but in it was a territory that is arguably the cradle of democracy

It was a territory of cities individually governed... I know this, but I did not want to get into too much detail.


What my question was, is where did the 'cradle of democracy' come from. Those ideals... They did not originate from Marathon or Athens....


I am interested in peoples theories...


User currently offlineTransIsland From Bahamas, joined Mar 2004, 2046 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 1846 times:



Quoting HapppyLandings (Reply 4):
What my question was, is where did the 'cradle of democracy' come from. Those ideals... They did not originate from Marathon or Athens....

Your question is actually extremely vague. Too vague to make much sense.

In Athens, democracy was, at first, more of a pragmatic approach to constitutional challenges than an "ideal." However, most historians agree that Athens was the birthplace of democracy; even the word is Greek. However, then there are those that follow Fadinger's school of thought were absolutely every fart anyone in the Greco-Roman world ever passed was just copying a Middle Eastern example.

And then there are those who tend to point at similar practices in pre-civilised societies, but fail to neglect that the whole concept of constitutional thought was lacking, and that, often, there is no continuity of tradition between those pre-civilised societies, the Greco-Roman world and the modern Western world, along which this democracy could have developed.

Our democracy traces back to Athens. If you believe there are other, earlier examples, you may argue similarity, but the example that the Western world followed was that of Athens. Others weren't taken notice of.



I'm an aviation expert. I have Sky Juice for breakfast.
User currently offlineBlackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1839 times:

Oh... it *was* Ancient Greece?

I thought it was going to be some trick question or was going to be so obscure that I wouldn't know...


Blackbird


User currently offlineHapppyLandings From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1830 times:



Quoting TransIsland (Reply 5):
Your question is actually extremely vague. Too vague to make much sense.

Herein lays the answer.... History is not precise, it is vague... Otherwise there would be no room for debate or no reason for intrigue....

Henceforth, I was asking for a debate, not a factual answer...

So I do not keep on beating around the proverbial bush on this topic… I believe, the core of democracy human rights, religious tolerance started with Cyrus the Great… The builder of Persia…The Founding fathers of the United States wrote the constitution in an almost Xerox copy of the Tomes of Cyrus…


Herein lays the Irony…. The Western Civilization and its laws and morals, rights and freedoms originate from a place that is now considered evil by the western world.

So to put the irony into a simple package…. We have Iraq (Persia) to thank for all of the freedoms that we have in the western world… More specifically, Cyrus the Great.


User currently offlineWunalaYann From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2839 posts, RR: 25
Reply 7, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1827 times:



Quoting HapppyLandings (Reply 7):
We have Iraq (Persia)

Well done, you have managed to insult two countries in one sentence - Iran is nowadays' Persia, Iraq is roughly built along the lines of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, which were the lifeblood of Babylon.

Additionally, Iranians are not ethnic Arabs. Never were. Iraqis are ethnic Arabs, except for the Kurds.

 Smile


User currently offlineHapppyLandings From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1827 times:



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 6):
I thought it was going to be some trick question or was going to be so obscure that I wouldn't know...

LOL, it was...  Smile so consider yourself tricked  Smile


User currently offlineTransIsland From Bahamas, joined Mar 2004, 2046 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1825 times:



Quoting HapppyLandings (Reply 7):
So I do not keep on beating around the proverbial bush on this topic… I believe, the core of democracy human rights, religious tolerance started with Cyrus the Great… The builder of Persia…The Founding fathers of the United States wrote the constitution in an almost Xerox copy of the Tomes of Cyrus…


Herein lays the Irony…. The Western Civilization and its laws and morals, rights and freedoms originate from a place that is now considered evil by the western world.

So to put the irony into a simple package…. We have Iraq (Persia) to thank for all of the freedoms that we have in the western world… More specifically, Cyrus the Great.

NO!! Not Cyrus: http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,566027,00.html

Not only did human rights and democracy develop separately, so your initial question really didn't make much sense, but you can't honestly credit Cyrus with inventing Human Rights.

As far as democracy goes, I have made my point - maybe not quite clear enough. Even if you formulate earlier demonstrations of similar principles, the Athenians developed "their" democracy independently, and the Western world adopted (and adapted and improved) the Athenian model.



I'm an aviation expert. I have Sky Juice for breakfast.
User currently offlineHapppyLandings From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1823 times:



Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 8):
Well done, you have managed to insult two countries in one sentence

It was not intentional... Sad... But do elaborate further... Persia converged over a great expanse of territory, I did not mention any cultures or races...


How did I insult two countries? Seriosly though.....I think your comment is just plain silly....


User currently offlineTransIsland From Bahamas, joined Mar 2004, 2046 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1821 times:



Quoting HapppyLandings (Reply 7):
History is not precise, it is vague

And that's a terrible statement, too. History may not be always clear-cut, but it's not vague - just in need of interpretation. For interpretation to be useful, the questions asked of history must be specific and precise.



I'm an aviation expert. I have Sky Juice for breakfast.
User currently offlineHapppyLandings From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1819 times:



Quoting TransIsland (Reply 10):
Not only did human rights and democracy develop separately, so your initial question really didn't make much sense, but you can't honestly credit Cyrus with inventing Human Rights.

Yes I can, and I can do so by backing it up with facts... He was the FIRST documented leader that refused to take slaves, and instead created a work force which was paid accordingly to skill (so also the first to create a real economic environment). Every land that he took over he did not rape, plunder or pllage, he was a liberator that freed slaves... He freed the Jews from Babylon and all of the other slaves and made them into paid citizens....


If this does not make much sense to you I suggest further study the history of Cyrus.


Alexander the great modeled himself after Cyrus, from military tactics to social and economical policies. Alexander even considered himself a king of Persia.

While I cant credit him with just human rights, I credit him with Human and Religious Rights.


User currently offlineHapppyLandings From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1818 times:



Quoting TransIsland (Reply 12):
the questions asked of history must be specific and precise.

The question yes, but we should never be arrogant enough to think the same of our answers...


User currently offlineTransIsland From Bahamas, joined Mar 2004, 2046 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1815 times:

Besides, many historians now argue that Solon laid the foundation for Athenian democracy (though he did not quite create what later scholars such as Aristotle considered Athenian democracy to be). Solon was before Cyrus.


I'm an aviation expert. I have Sky Juice for breakfast.
User currently offlineTransIsland From Bahamas, joined Mar 2004, 2046 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1811 times:



Quoting HapppyLandings (Reply 13):
If this does not make much sense to you I suggest further study the history of Cyrus.

I take it you didn't bother read the link I posted.
 Yeah sure

Quoting HapppyLandings (Reply 14):
but we should never be arrogant enough to think the same of our answers...

While I don't even agree with that statement ("arrogant" does not do to describe thorough research), you used that as an excuse for asking a vague question.



I'm an aviation expert. I have Sky Juice for breakfast.
User currently offlineHapppyLandings From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1807 times:



Quoting TransIsland (Reply 16):
While I don't even agree with that statement ("arrogant" does not do to describe thorough research), you used that as an excuse for asking a vague question.

Arrogant is why history and archeology can not move forward... Old schools of thought that are terrified of losing their theories at the cost of history....

So yes my friend, history is vague and open to interpretation.... If we cannot identify Jesus as a fact, or the Sphinx date of origin, how can anyone we be arrogant enough to say anything before those supposed dates is a fact?

Arrogance is what makes history vague, instead of an adventurous journey.... Or, the ego of many scholars that do not want to have their life's work redefined.

Many a good historian has been defamed for his/her alternative theories...


User currently offlineHapppyLandings From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1803 times:

Quoting TransIsland (Reply 16):
I take it you didn't bother read the link I posted.
And i think that the opinions that make this great leader into a tyrant might have their own bias.

No western scholar wants to attribute his rights and freedoms to origins of the east... Hence, Greece is considered the beginning of western civilization... Which not at all correct.

Regardless, that tablet is at the entrance to the United Nations to remind all of what Human Rights are.... And to tell them that it was Cyrus that started it all.....(although it is a replica, but a damn good one)

[Edited 2008-09-30 20:49:54]

User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 18, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1794 times:



Quoting HapppyLandings (Thread starter):
Democracy, Human Rights, The Origin  

Democracy is rule of the majority. It has nothing to do with human rights. Human rights are supposed to be considered inviolable, which is not the case when you can pass anything with a vote. This is why we rely on the rule of law and have constitutions.

Democracy = Rule of the People (people determine the use of force)

Republic = Rule of Law (the law, not people, determine the use of force)

Rights are more associated with the rule of law, and have been developed and built upon over the centuries by many philosophers of different countries. No one cradle, though the U.S. was probably the first "complete" package, so to speak.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 19, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1789 times:

The Magna Carta Libertatum, its full name, is particularly important.

"For as in absolute governments the king is law, so in free countries the law ought to be king; and there ought to be no other."
-Thomas Paine



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineHapppyLandings From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1782 times:



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 19):
Democracy is rule of the majority. It has nothing to do with human rights. Human rights are supposed to be considered inviolable, which is not the case when you can pass anything with a vote. This is why we rely on the rule of law and have constitutions.

Democracy = Rule of the People (people determine the use of force)

Republic = Rule of Law (the law, not people, determine the use of force)

Rights are more associated with the rule of law, and have been developed and built upon over the centuries by many philosophers of different countries. No one cradle, though the U.S. was probably the first "complete" package, so to speak.

Wow!!! thanks for that lesson! I must have been at my local university pub instead of being in class that day when they were supposed to teach me that critical information......

And no, the US was not the first 'complete package', and arguable is no where near that today......  Smile


Arguably, no closer is any other nation.


Oh, BTW, in your own definitions of 'democracy' you are no closer to correct than GWB was on the status of WMD;s..... People do not determine the use of force, they elect the moron that does what ever he feels will (insert anything you want)

Democracy is still in its infantile stages in my personal opinion.


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 21, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1776 times:



Quoting HapppyLandings (Reply 21):

And no, the US was not the first 'complete package', and arguable is no where near that today......

Well definitely yes for the second part, and I suppose you could argue the first part. Rome was the first Republic, though the concepts of rights were still relatively in their infancy. Obviously, once under Caeser and others that went completely out the window.

Quoting HapppyLandings (Reply 21):
People do not determine the use of force, they elect the moron that does what ever he feels will (insert anything you want)

Well, normally only the courts can enforce anything, so you have that judicial review thing. Today, however, seems like we have moved away from that quite a bit. Politicians tend to ignore the rule of law, and remember they often get to appoint the judges that agree with them. Not a perfect system by any means.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineWunalaYann From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2839 posts, RR: 25
Reply 22, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1772 times:



Quoting HapppyLandings (Reply 11):
How did I insult two countries? Seriosly though.....I think your comment is just plain silly....

How you insulted two countries? By mixing them up pretty badly, that's how. It's like me saying "oh yes, Canada, that's where they had that war of independence back in the 1700s".

No, my comment is not silly at all. It is a fact - when you mix up two very distinct cultural and ethnic entities such as Iran and Iraq, you offend their respective members. More specifically so when you try to link them to concepts as polarising and hard to define as democracy and human rights. Nothing new here.  Smile

It has nothing to do with the expense of territory covered by Persia 3000 years ago. Today, Iran and Iraq are two VERY different countries, who incidentally were at (a supremely bloody) war twenty years ago.

 Smile


User currently offlineHapppyLandings From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1771 times:



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 23):
Not a perfect system by any means.

We agree on something  Smile

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 23):
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32



Quoting HapppyLandings (Reply 21):
! I must have been at my local university pub instead of being in class that day when they were supposed to teach me that critical information

And BTW, I did not mean that to be insulting... That is how I remeber university.... I cant really recall any of the classes...  Smile lol.... I did learn more at the pub than I did in the lecture halls.. The good ole days..... lol


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 24, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1785 times:



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 22):

A Republic doesn't mean you even have to have elections. Elections, though, are generally still seen as the best mechanism in electing politicians, however flawed it may be.

Quoting HapppyLandings (Reply 25):
nd BTW, I did not mean that to be insulting... That is how I remeber university.... I cant really recall any of the classes...   lol.... I did learn more at the pub than I did in the lecture halls.. The good ole days..... lol

No problem at all. I learned this stuff mostly on my own, though the subject was in one chapter in one of my textbooks, but my professor skimmed over it. I doubt anyone in that class remembers anything.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
25 Post contains images HapppyLandings : I was stating 'Modern day Iraq and Iran' When you go back 2500 years you will find that they were Persia.... What is missing here.... Do you want me
26 HapppyLandings : Good to hear there are some curious minds left in this world (it is well to seldom now a days) Cheers!
27 Post contains links WunalaYann : You wrote: Which is wrong. As evidenced by: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persia Except "Iraq" did not exist 2500 years ago. Or in which case I could
28 Doona : I always thought they Xeroxed Montesqieu... Cheers Mats
29 TransIsland : ??? What scholars seriously argue against the fact that once upon a time there was a man by that name walking the face of the Earth? The scientific a
30 TransIsland : Well... I was tempted to use Germany as a comparison, but the concept is the same.
31 PacNWjet : The Western world now considers ancient Persia evil? Your assertion is illogical. The present situation in what currently is known in Iran is not equ
32 HapppyLandings : I meant Iraq (Used to be part of the Persian Empire) which it was. I also said that it used to be and not that Iraq is currently Persian..... You are
33 Slider : There is a bit of contradiction even in Athens. As a system of government, they believed in democratic ideals, open debate and discussion. It was eff
34 TransIsland : You are absolutely correct here (the "caste system" we can argue about, however... at least if we look at the various eras in Athenian history ). I m
35 Slider : I would say it does as well—your points are valid though that it’s not happened without peril. Even in the later stages of the Peloponnesian War,
36 WunalaYann : Sure, whatever. Can't stand being proven wrong, hey? Don't start threads, then. Who's throwing a tantrum now?
37 Post contains images PPVRA : There are infinite definitions of democracy, but in general, it is the decision making by vote, not by any single ruling principle attached. Rule of
38 WunalaYann : PPVRA, Did you obtain this great map from Transparency International? Or is it the CIA factbook? Thanks for any info, I find it really telling.
39 Post contains links PPVRA : Wikipedia Some googling led me to the World Bank: http://info.worldbank.org/governance/wgi/worldmap.asp
40 WunalaYann : Ah, same level of proficiency!! But thank you for the information. I browsed Transparency International but their rankings include a variety of facto
41 Post contains images TransIsland : I never contested that. I just find it disturbing that more and more people use "rule of law" synonymous with "republic" just because some online enc
42 PPVRA : i.e., the law. It doesn't describe the form, but it does say that the law rules. Just making sure: this has nothing to do with U.S. politics. The Rep
43 TransIsland : OK... Here's someone who's actually fun to argue with, I've had a few glasses and I'm waiting to meet some friends in an hour, so... The "public affai
44 HapppyLandings : I agree 100% But then look at the arrogant poster that is the pinnacle of ruining discussions and open debates.... It is hard to carry on a debate wi
45 Post contains links and images PPVRA : To the first point, not many aspects of life are touched by the government without a law behind it. I'm not sure there are any--legitimate anyways. A
46 WunalaYann : I actually agree with everything you said. And I hope you will be able to convince more people of the benefits a society could get by adopting a more
47 HapppyLandings : I am very pleasantly surprised by your response! Thank you for your openness and welcome to my RU list. And If I said anything insulting I apologize.
48 WunalaYann : Obrigado!! It is actually brilliant!! One will notice the African country no one ever talks about that is actually doing a commendable job of sanitis
49 Post contains links PPVRA : Wow, what a nice surprise! They are doing very well with corruption in particular! They also scored pretty well on another Index: http://www.heritage
50 WunalaYann : They have been the unsung heroes of democracy and transparency in Africa for over 40 years and I dare 80% of A.net to be able to place it on a map! H
51 DocLightning : Wasn't the Code of Hamurabi the first recorded set of laws?
52 Slider : We also need to be careful in the context VS connotation of some of these terms. I consider myself classically liberal, but in the parlance of our ti
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