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Is The Texas Castle Law Going Too Far?  
User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2459 times:

Found this out of Laredo, Texas http://www.kvue.com/news/state/stori.../092808kvuesnack-km.bdb5f1ce.html. this time an unarmed 13 year old is kill while looking for snacks according to the District Attorney.

It took the jury of eight men and four women three hours Friday to find 63-year-old Jose Luis Gonzalez not guilty of murdering Francisco Anguiano. The 13-year-old and three friends broke into Gonzalez's trailer to rummage for snacks and soda one night in July 2007.

Seems like an awful high price to pay..especially when the homeowner's life was not in danger;
Attorneys for both sides say he forced the unarmed boys to their knees. The boys say they were begging for forgiveness when Gonzalez hit them with the barrel of the shotgun and kicked them repeatedly.

The medical examiner testified that Anguiano was shot in the back at close range.

Seems like a simple case of murder to me.

65 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29802 posts, RR: 58
Reply 1, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2438 times:



Quoting AirCop (Thread starter):
especially when the homeowner's life was not in danger;

The homeowner didn't know that when it was happening.

Quoting AirCop (Thread starter):
The 13-year-old and three friends broke into Gonzalez's trailer to rummage for snacks and soda one night in July 2007.

And that is why he got shot, if he hadn't made the choice of committing a burglery then he wouldn't be dead.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2432 times:



Quoting L-188 (Reply 1):
And that is why he got shot, if he hadn't made the choice of committing a burglery then he wouldn't be dead

So you're okay with forcing the unarmed children to their knees, then hit them with the barrel of the shotgun and killing one basically execution style. What happen to the old days when you killed the kids in the case, and dragged them home.

One of these days I would suspect that an innocent party is going to be shot to dead, by mistake.


User currently offlineStealthZ From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5703 posts, RR: 44
Reply 3, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2415 times:
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Quoting L-188 (Reply 1):
The homeowner didn't know that when it was happening.

It was likely pretty clear to him by the time they were on their knees and he was beating them with a shotgun though!

[Edited 2008-10-01 22:54:07]


If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlineFlyMIA From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7185 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2407 times:

Well some people really should just not own guns. I am all for the castle law which Florida has too and right to carry etc.. But really to just shoot an un armed person who is not attacking you in any way is just not right. Do I think this is murder no, the kids where breaking the law and under the law he did have the right to shoot so under the law I guess charges should not be taken if you follow it by the book. But taking them down to their knees? I say manslaughter.
People who use deadly force need to be wise when to use it, asses the situation dont just shoot. Now if the person had any type of weapon or was making any type of threatening actions than go ahead and fire and protect your self. But I dont think this was the case.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineFlyMIA From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7185 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2380 times:

For those not familiar with the Castle Law this is what it basically does at least in the state of Florida.
"One: It establishes, in law, the presumption that a criminal who forcibly enters or intrudes into your home or occupied vehicle is there to cause death or great bodily harm, therefore a person may use any manner of force, including deadly force, against that person.

Two: It removes the "duty to retreat" if you are attacked in any place you have a right to be. You no longer have to turn your back on a criminal and try to run when attacked. Instead, you may stand your ground and fight back, meeting force with force, including deadly force, if you reasonably believe it is necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm to yourself or others.

Three: It provides that persons using force authorized by law shall not be prosecuted for using such force."



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19786 posts, RR: 59
Reply 6, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2345 times:



Quoting L-188 (Reply 1):
The homeowner didn't know that when it was happening.

Um, if you have your intruder on his knees begging for his life, then I think you pretty much know you're in control of the situation.

This case makes me wish that Dexter was a real person.


User currently offlineRJdxer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2321 times:



Quoting AirCop (Thread starter):
It took the jury of eight men and four women three hours Friday to find 63-year-old Jose Luis Gonzalez not guilty of murdering Francisco Anguiano. The 13-year-old and three friends broke into Gonzalez's trailer to rummage for snacks and soda one night in July 2007.

I just hate it when a jury of your peers finds you not guilty.
BTW your link goes 404.

http://www.kvue.com/news/state/stori...omeowner_aquitted-mw.ba87a7b9.html

Quoting AirCop (Thread starter):
Seems like an awful high price to pay..especially when the homeowner's life was not in danger;
Attorneys for both sides say he forced the unarmed boys to their knees. The boys say they were begging for forgiveness when Gonzalez hit them with the barrel of the shotgun and kicked them repeatedly.

How do you know his life was not in danger? The remaining boys say they were begging for forgiveness. Was that before or after the other boy was shot? The story doesn't make it clear. Where was the evidence that the boys were hit with the barrel and kicked and was that before or after the shooting? Far more interesting is the response from the community. Seems that many agreed with the man doing the shooting. As L-188 states, if they hadn't broken into the mans trailer they wouldn't have gotten shot. Perhaps the "you loot we shoot" signs should be made more readily available.


User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2291 times:



Quoting AirCop (Thread starter):
The medical examiner testified that Anguiano was shot in the back at close range.



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 7):
How do you know his life was not in danger?

So you're okay with shooting young people in the back. Classic..


User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11378 posts, RR: 52
Reply 9, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2284 times:



Quoting L-188 (Reply 1):
The homeowner didn't know that when it was happening.

WRONG ANSWER.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
Um, if you have your intruder on his knees begging for his life, then I think you pretty much know you're in control of the situation.

RIGHT ANSWER.



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User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 10, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2254 times:

AirCop.... How was the homeowner supposed to know that the children were armed or not?

Children or adults as the perps, the homeowner has the right to protect his home, family and assets from harm.

But then again, when he has the perps in control, that should be it...no more excessive force beyond that, period. That is when murder comes into play.

So we were not there so we don't know what really happened.

I agree with this law, though. It should be a federal law.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineRJdxer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2253 times:



Quoting AirCop (Reply 8):
So you're okay with shooting young people in the back. Classic..

Evidently you are ok with crooks breaking into other people's homes. BTW, there are plenty of ways a person can get shot in the back in an enclosed space. According to the victim, the crook lunged at him and he fired. Plenty of ways to get hit in the back in that scenario.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14030 posts, RR: 62
Reply 12, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2236 times:



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 10):
AirCop.... How was the homeowner supposed to know that the children were armed or not?

Children or adults as the perps, the homeowner has the right to protect his home, family and assets from harm.

But then again, when he has the perps in control, that should be it...no more excessive force beyond that, period. That is when murder comes into play.

So we were not there so we don't know what really happened.

I agree with this law, though. It should be a federal law.

From what I understand, normal selfdefense laws (as in most countries) require you to de-escalate, if necessary by running away and calling the cops, before fighting back. Fighting back is only allowed if you are cornered.
Now the Castle laws remove this requirement, on your own property, you can stand your ground and use all your legal means available to combat a threat.
Now, what I don't see is the castle laws giving the pissed off homeowner the right to execute tresspassers or burglars AFTER the threat has been neutralised and the perps have been secured.
If he really had them lined up on their knees, with him standing behind them, and then first beat them and then shot them into the back Soviet execution style to make a point, it would be IMO murder and taking the law into his own hands. I doubt that this was the intention of the castle laws.

Jan


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19786 posts, RR: 59
Reply 13, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2232 times:



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 11):
Evidently you are ok with crooks breaking into other people's homes.

Please quote where he said that.

Do you support the death penalty for ALL crimes?


User currently offlineMattRB From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1624 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2232 times:

There's protecting your property and then there is vengeance. This is a case of the latter. Forcing them to their knees at gunpoint? Shot in the back? That's not protecting your property.


Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 15, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2229 times:



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 12):
Now, what I don't see is the castle laws giving the pissed off homeowner the right to execute tresspassers or burglars AFTER the threat has been neutralised and the perps have been secured.

Right. Once you have a perp under control...that is it. No more force needed. Call the cops at gunpoint and let the cops sort it out on arrival.

Executing beyond the means is then murder. The Texas Castle Law has left that part out.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2212 times:



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 7):
How do you know his life was not in danger?

If anyone was afraid for their lives it was the subdued teenagers as they were being kicked and beaten by Gonzalez.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 11):
According to the victim, the crook lunged at him and he fired. Plenty of ways to get hit in the back in that scenario.

Really; enlighten us how Aguiano who was on his knees could have “lunged” at Gonzalez and get shot in the back.
From Newsweek: I thank God and my attorney, the jury and the judge," Gonzalez said in Spanish after the verdict. "It was a case where it was my life or theirs, and it's a very good thing that they (the jurors) decided in my favor."
I still fail to understand how Gonzalez life was in danger when HE WASN'T HOME when the kids entered his trailer.


User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2093 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2198 times:



Quoting L-188 (Reply 1):

Honestly - people say we share the same culture, we're part of the same Western civilization. But you're culturally so far removed from anything I'd consider even remotely acceptable, I find it impossible to even argue with you. You defend the execution of a 13-year old child and believe it to be the most normal thing in the world - I can't really find words to express how bloody unbelievable that is.

This is why I am time and again amazed that the society you live in deems it appropriate to allow you and your kind to carry firearms. In my view, that's a disaster waiting to happen.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineBristolFlyer From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 2297 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2163 times:

Can someone please post the 'aww jeez, not this sh#t again' picture please.

People are arguing about the facts, but no-one seems to know them. What's the point?



Fortune favours the brave
User currently offlineBlackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2151 times:

DocLighting,

Quote:
Um, if you have your intruder on his knees begging for his life, then I think you pretty much know you're in control of the situation.

I would have to concur. That guy went totally out of line...


Blackbird


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2145 times:



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 19):
That guy went totally out of line...

I think we have already established that.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineAircraftGeek From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2137 times:



Quoting AirCop (Thread starter):
Attorneys for both sides say he forced the unarmed boys to their knees. The boys say they were begging for forgiveness when Gonzalez hit them with the barrel of the shotgun and kicked them repeatedly.

The medical examiner testified that Anguiano was shot in the back at close range.

Wow. Just wow.

Gonzalez must be really proud of what he did, shooting an unarmed 13yo in the back.

But this is the law of Texas, so if Texans are happy, so be it.


User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11378 posts, RR: 52
Reply 22, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2133 times:



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 11):
Evidently you are ok with crooks breaking into other people's homes.

How did you reach that conclusion? There's a whole lot of punishment available between execution and letting someone go. No one on this thread has suggested that the kids should have been given no punishment.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 12):
From what I understand, normal selfdefense laws (as in most countries) require you to de-escalate, if necessary by running away and calling the cops, before fighting back.

That's the basic law in most places in the United States also. Texas and a couple other jurisdictions are anomalous.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 15):
Right. Once you have a perp under control...that is it. No more force needed. Call the cops at gunpoint and let the cops sort it out on arrival.

Executing beyond the means is then murder. The Texas Castle Law has left that part out.

So then, do you agree that the Texas Castle Law went too far in this case? The perps were under control, and the murderer shot them in the back.

He might not go to jail in Texas, but I sure as hell know where he's going when he's dead.



Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently offlineCharles79 From Puerto Rico, joined Mar 2007, 1331 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days ago) and read 2124 times:



Quoting Rara (Reply 17):
Honestly - people say we share the same culture, we're part of the same Western civilization. But you're culturally so far removed from anything I'd consider even remotely acceptable, I find it impossible to even argue with you. You defend the execution of a 13-year old child and believe it to be the most normal thing in the world - I can't really find words to express how bloody unbelievable that is.

Rara, please remember that he doesn't speak for all of us. I guarantee you that most folks in the US would find it inappropriate to shoot a child from behind and kill him for a petty crime. Just like you, I am at a loss of words here. I just hope that those parts of our society will one day abandone this John Wayne syndrome once and for all and adopt a more civilized mode of conduct.

As for the case at hand, it makes me feel even better about rejecting two job offers from Texas. There are many places in the world that I would like to live in, and Texas ain't one of them!


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 24, posted (5 years 12 months 4 days ago) and read 2126 times:



Quoting D L X (Reply 22):
So then, do you agree that the Texas Castle Law went too far in this case?

No. The one that went to far is the dude, himself, who shot the kids...not the law itself. The law clearly left out a protections clause for the intruders if the protector has the situation under control. Had the law had that, the dude would be in jail by now....possibly for life or death penalty.

In the end of the day, its all about common sense.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
25 MD80fanatic : Is it? Common sense says what goes on behind locked doors on private property is no one elses business....unless the man was luring kids in to be exe
26 AirframeAS : You can take your tinfoil hat off now.....
27 MD80fanatic : That's all you got? Behind locked doors on your own property, there is still more than a reasonable expectation of privacy. You are all putting your
28 AirframeAS : Do you realize what I said earlier that there was no justification on what the man did? I am not supporting the man's actions. A certain piece of the
29 MD80fanatic : I do not believe you can prove this assertion. Neither can the law. You have to make quite a few broad based assumptions to do so. That is why he wil
30 AirframeAS : That's a better view. Thank you. But then again, we were not there so we do not really know what really took place. With that said, the man got lucky
31 IAirAllie : So they were there to steal snacks. Well just this last week there was a story in the news about a 15 year old who broke in to steal $6 for beer money
32 MD80fanatic : You're welcome of course.
33 AirframeAS : While that may be true, that was left out of the Texas Castle Law legislation.... That should have been added... We don't know that. But in my eyes,
34 RJdxer : Sure as soon as he explains where I said: The kid didn't get the death penalty. The death penalty is a form of sentence given out by a court of law.
35 AirframeAS : Agreed... but based in the evidence given to them through the Texas Castle Law.
36 MD11Engineer : So this means that in Texas I can set up a nice little gallows in my backyard and hang whomever I find entering my house illegally instead of handing
37 AirframeAS : You're missing the point, Jan.
38 AirCop : Didn't have to look far, now answer Doc's question. According to the local paper ( 08/03/07) it appears that the "victim" story changed from what fir
39 IAirAllie : Yes we do there was a verdict. The law says it is self defense. They are certainly operating with a more complete set of facts than we are.
40 AirframeAS : Opinion, more likely, which is acquittal. The jury is not the law. That is true.
41 StuckInCA : A lot of us feel that way. Texas is like it's own little universe. Everyone I've met from Texas wishes they were back in Texas. And everyone else wis
42 AirframeAS : I agree with that, 100% My gf went to Austin College. To this day, she still wishes she was in Texas living there full-time.
43 RJdxer : Nope, the law does not allow for that. That I was answering you with the same ridiculous logic you are espousing? Answer the question, how do you kno
44 MD11Engineer : So we have two different scenarios: a) The armed homeowner confronts the burglars. While they seem to be secured, and he is waiting for the cops to a
45 Post contains links AirCop : You might try Yahoo, or another search engine, I found numerous stories (at least 30) on the subject dating back to August of last year. But here one
46 RJdxer : Kneel down but where does the zip tie evidence come in? Saw nothing in the story about that. Again, I did not see where evidence of this was introduc
47 Post contains links Rara : No, of course I'm aware of that. It seems that the good people of America have to deal with some really deranged individuals - I don't envy you guys.
48 RJdxer : I might, but I'm not the one who started the thread with a bogus link and is referring to statements in stories that have no link at all. I would rem
49 MD11Engineer : the zip tie came from my own imagination. This is what I would do if I caught a burglar in my place, tying him up before I call the cops to prevent n
50 RJdxer : I understand and I must apologize, I was using you as an example to some others here who do not seem to realize exageration or interpolation when the
51 Blackbird : RJdxer, I don't think that's the message you should be getting out of this. The message I think that should be obtained from this is that if you can g
52 AirCop : Instead, he testified that through the witnesses' statements, he learned Gonzalez allegedly caught the juveniles, who ranged in age from 11 to 15 at
53 RJdxer : He also admitted both parties had time to come up with their stories and there is no corrobarating evidence in either story to shore up the beating c
54 AirCop : And he was re-elected since.. You have got to be kidding to compare these two situations. The bad guy shot and killed Officer Johnson when he had his
55 RJdxer : So was Marion Barry. Yet some how a citizen should not be surprised. That makes sense. If you would care to point to the evidence, other than the thr
56 MD11Engineer : There is a big difference between defending your life and property against a threat (with which I fully agree) and taking the law into your own hand,
57 AirCop : Perhaps you can enlighten me? Would that be the same people that pay your salary? Really, you know this how? Care to know how many businesses I own?
58 RJdxer : Nope, but if as the victim in this case has repeatedly said, the perp lunged at him, then you are well within your rights to shoot that person if you
59 MD11Engineer : Something is fishy there. Either the homeowner is lying or the surviving burglars. Obviously they are now trying to protect themselves by blaming the
60 MD11Engineer : There is one scenario, where it might have looked as if the boy lunged at the old man and then got shot into the back: Imagine the three boys kneeling
61 IAirAllie : No one is saying that.
62 RJdxer : It was the victims testimony that the perp lunged at him and tried to grab him around the legs as if to tackle him. Thus the shot was down and in his
63 MD11Engineer : I didn't think about this option, but this would explain it as well. Then tough sh*t, dumb@rse! Never try to wrestle with an armed man. Jan
64 RJdxer : My thoughts exactly.
65 AustinAirport : Exactly, You Never Know. We've Been Broken Into Twice. Both Times While We Were Gone to School Or Work. If Someone Broke In While We Were Home, And I
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