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U.S. Election - Obama/McCain Debate II 10/7/2008  
User currently offlineModerators From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 514 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2694 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

The 2nd debate of the 2 candidates.

here the official thread about it.

Enjoy the discussion.

Thanks


Please use moderators@airliners.net to contact us.
75 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineQANTAS077 From Australia, joined Jan 2004, 5869 posts, RR: 39
Reply 1, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2679 times:

now McCain says he knows how to get Bin Laden, why hasn't he shared that with Bush? but I think this really sums up the night. McCain couldn't be anymore bitter if he tried.




a true friend is someone who sees the pain in your eyes, while everyone else believes the smile on your face.
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 35
Reply 2, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2659 times:

Can only repeat what I said on BN747's (now deleted) thread.

I reckon that it went 'according to plan' for Obama. Stay calm, act as 'Presidential' as you can at all times, don't throw any mud and don't rise to any bait.

As for McCain, he didn't appear to have any sort of 'plan.' For me, he came over as rambling, ineffectual, and terribly old and tired.

I barely noticed the 'That one..." crack at the time - but, judging by the comment it's already getting, I think it could prove to be one of those 'turning-point' gaffes that have distinguished earlier campaigns. Best comment I've chanced upon so far is the last sentence of this blog entry:-

"There is already a lot of talk in the blogosphere about McCain's referring to Obama as "that one." The Obama campaign was pushing the idea that it was proof McCain was a man of bitter moods. I didn't see it as a major act of disrespect, but it did feel antiquated. I have relatives—older relatives—who use this expression. My mother's version of it was to call someone "himself." (As in, "I'm glad himself has decided to join us for dinner.") McCain has 27 days to find a better way to take on his opponent or he'll be calling him Mr. President."

http://www.slate.com/id/2201762/



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 3, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2607 times:

Both very wary. It begins to seem that far from being deciding moments, the debates are just becoming a stage to act out what is already evident. Then again, one slip, and what had been self evident would go out of the window.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 2):
terribly old and tired

Yep!


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8967 posts, RR: 24
Reply 4, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2573 times:

Obama made three foreign policy gaffes that I could see.

1) The US didn’t take its eye off the ball in Afghanistan and let UBL escape because Bush was preoccupied w Iraq. UBL escaped in Nov2001, Iraq buildup began 10 months later, and Iraq was invaded in 2003. WILL SOMEONE PLEASE GET OBAMA A CALENDER

2) The cost of the war in Iraq literally changes every week according to Obama. Tonight he claimed it was $700+bn. No. That’s the cost of the war on terror as a whole. Iraq (per the Congressional Research Service) cost $444.6bn as of July. For reference, the cost of all the Clinton Wars was about $450bn most of which was spent “containing” Saddam, and that “containment”….caused UBL to decide to start killing Americans; caused the war on terror

3) Obama promised to encourage democracy, reforms, peace, love, and happiness in Pakistan via foreign aid, but Biden said in the VP debate that the first thing they’d cut due to the financial crisis….is foreign aid.

I was really disappointed by the format. Tom Brokaw filtered the questions and turned a town hall meeting into a normal podium debate. As town hall formats with all sorts of unexpected questions are where McCain does well, how many of you think that's an accident?



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineQANTAS077 From Australia, joined Jan 2004, 5869 posts, RR: 39
Reply 5, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2555 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
Obama made three foreign policy gaffes that I could see.

McCain says he knows how to get Bin Laden, why hasn't he shared this with the man already in the WH?

McCain knows how to get American working again, well John, there's a few people that lost their jobs last month that need this info yesterday, not in 10 months from now if you win.

[Edited 2008-10-08 05:33:48]


a true friend is someone who sees the pain in your eyes, while everyone else believes the smile on your face.
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8289 posts, RR: 26
Reply 6, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2553 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
Obama made three foreign policy gaffes that I could see.

They both made unforgivable gaffes, and they both further dug the holes of mistruth their campaigns have been mired in for the last several weeks. It's just further spin insanity, as I like to call it. Stop being so blindly partisan and call them BOTH out for what they are: lying, spinning, same-as-usual politicians.

A few dumb examples:

- McCain exaggerated Obama's votes to increase taxes.

McCain: Sen. Obama has voted 94 times to either increase your taxes or against tax cuts. That's his record.

He’s getting warmer — the first time we dinged him for this one, he said Obama voted 94 times to increase taxes, which is way off. He's now saying it's 94 votes either for increased taxes or against tax cuts. But that's still misleading. Seven of the votes were for lowering taxes for most people while increasing them on a few, and 11 votes were for increasing taxes only on those making more than $1 million a year (not "your taxes" except for a very few.)

Obama had his own misleading claim about vote counts:

Obama: And during that time, he voted 23 times against alternative fuels, 23 times.

We found that only 11 of those votes would have reduced or eliminated subsidies or tax incentives for alternative energy. The rest were votes McCain cast against the mandatory use of alternative energy, or votes in favor of allowing exemptions from such mandates.

- Obama repeated a stale talking point when he said, "We're spending $10 billion a month in Iraq at a time when the Iraqis have a $79 billion surplus, $79 billion."

As we’ve pointed out when Obama said it on the campaign trail, when he repeated it at the last debate, and even when Biden mentioned the figure in the vice presidential debate, that number is wrong. The Iraqis actually “have” $29.4 billion in the bank.

- McCain said it again: "We've got to stop sending $700 billion a year to countries that don't want us very – like us very much" (He actually used the figure three times in the debate.) He's talking about what we spend importing oil, and he's said the same thing at the last debate and numerous other times. At current oil prices, the correct figure is about $493 billion. About a third of that goes to Canada, Mexico and the United Kingdom, which were still on the friendly side of the ledger last time we looked.

Lies lies lies, spin spin spin...

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_debate_no_2.html

Kick these two to the floor already...

[Edited 2008-10-08 05:19:59]


If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineBoeing757/767 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 2282 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2525 times:

As far as the Afghanistan calendar stated above, I don't think Obama was referring to exact timing, but the fact is Bush did take his eyes off chasing Bin Laden before launching the Iraq war. And we're paying for it dearly.


Free-thinking, left-leaning secularist
User currently offlineSv7887 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1025 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2514 times:



Quoting Boeing757/767 (Reply 7):
As far as the Afghanistan calendar stated above, I don't think Obama was referring to exact timing, but the fact is Bush did take his eyes off chasing Bin Laden before launching the Iraq war. And we're paying for it dearly.

In all fairness it's hard to catch a guy that is being tipped off to every US move by the Pakistani ISI.

This won't stop with a President Obama either. How is he going to get credible intelligence if US forces aren't on the ground in Pakistan? Right now we're wholly reliant on the Pakistani Armed Forces.

The problem is that the new President of Pakistan has enough issues and I am not sure he's the right man for the job. If you start bombing Pakistani unilaterally you risk destroying whatever relationship we have with them...and they have Nuclear Weapons.

Obama came across as whiny on the Pakistan issue, even asking for a rebuttal when they had agreed not to. He says healthcare is a right, and fine that's his opinion. His plan is similar to the state of Massachusetts one, but he seems to ignore the fact that MA is having a hell of a time paying for it. I live in MA and our taxes are pretty high as it is. We may even need a loan from Washington because the credit markets are frozen and we can't raise any money through municipal bonds.

He is relying on feel good measures, but doesn't really say how he's going to fund it. Independent economists have already said it will cost 3 Trillion just to implement his tax plan, and he's committing to spend even more.

The Iraqis say they're close to an agreement that will have the US leave in 2011 or stay longer at Baghdad's request, so it's not like we can suddenly renege on that.

McCain and Obama repeated their typical talking points, nothing new here. The only new thing was McCain's idea to buy mortgages...He explained it well and it makes sense but it will be very expensive.

McCain's tax plans are equally impractical. Don't know how we can afford another giant tax cut when we are running the deficits we are. Cutting spending is nice, but neither candidate dares to discuss how to reform Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid, which accounts for the largest piece of our budget.


User currently offlineMt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6676 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2505 times:
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Quoting NAV20 (Reply 2):
For me, he came over as rambling, ineffectual, and terribly old and tired.

He came off a terribly condescending. Specially right before the "That One" talk.. he was talking about "goodies" .. It was really terrible..

Talking points and spin aside, you cannot deny that Obama "looked" more the part of President.



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 35
Reply 10, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2498 times:



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 8):
In all fairness it's hard to catch a guy that is being tipped off to every US move by the Pakistani ISI.

Personally I reckon they were both a mile off target.

First of all, any idea that Osama Bin Laden is huddling in a cave somewhere on the North-West Frontier has to be the purest eyewash. He's much more likely to be spending most of his time (minus the wig, the false beard, and the phoney 'flowing robes') living in a 'secluded' location back in his home territory - Saudi-Arabia - in the bosom of his wealthy family.

Secondly, Bin Laden may have grabbed most of the publicity so far, but any idea that he's the sole leader of Muslim extremism - and that therefore knocking him off will solve the problem - is the purest garbage. Straight out of old-fashioned Western films - all you have to do is shoot all the 'black hats' off the rooftops, and then beat the head baddie to the draw, and you and the leading lady can ride off into the sunset and live happily ever after.........

Muslim extremism is a world-wide political movement. And it can only be 'defeated' by political means. Trying to find a 'military solution' is just playing into the hands of people like Bin Laden.



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineSv7887 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1025 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2493 times:



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 9):
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 2):
For me, he came over as rambling, ineffectual, and terribly old and tired.

He came off a terribly condescending. Specially right before the "That One" talk.. he was talking about "goodies" .. It was really terrible..

Talking points and spin aside, you cannot deny that Obama "looked" more the part of President.

It's sort of like Beauty is in the eye of the beholder...McCain supporters thought he won, Obama supporters thought Obama won.

I wasn't impressed that neither candidate had the guts to talk about Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid. Those are crucial budgetary issues.

There is no doubt in my mind we haven't seen the last of the bailouts, or that even this current bailout will actually end with $700 billion. Since when does any "estimate" actually pan out to be true when politicians are involved?

If this is the case, we need to devise long term solutions to our entitlement programs instead of passing these half assed band aids.

Both candidates talked about the people getting their finances in order, that's great, but what about Washington?

McCain talks earmarks, that's nice but as Obama says a fraction of our budget
Obama talks about taxes on the corporations and rich, but doesn't tell you his plan will still net a deficit and that doesn't factor in his planned spending.

I am honestly not impressed with either candidate in this aspect. It's just more partisan nonsense.

The more I watch these debates the more disillusioned I become. I don't think either party has what it takes to get us through this, and a mess largely of their own making.

At least here on A.net we have honest discussions. Sometimes we delve into pettiness but we talk facts. We debate these issues because WE CARE. I don't see that in the eyes of these politicians.

Where is the open honest debate on Capitol Hill or in these debates? Why do Obama and McCain need a 30 page "agreement" on content? I don't know if anyone watched the West Wing, but I remember they had a mock debate where it was open rules..

That's what we need, but both campaigns rather give us a rehash of stump speeches, and are deathly afraid of a gaffee or being caught ignorant on a question or issue...


User currently offlineMD80fanatic From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2661 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2493 times:

Thanks NAV20 for the effective wake up call regarding bin Laden. I have always thought he was dead already, and the result would be the same (we'll never find him). He's the perfect "boogey man" for America.

User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 35
Reply 13, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2476 times:



Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 12):
Thanks NAV20 for the effective wake up call regarding bin Laden. I have always thought he was dead already,

Cheers, MD80fanatic - almost put 'even assuming that he's still alive' into my post. But I try (not always successfully) to keep them short.  Smile



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineCharles79 From Puerto Rico, joined Mar 2007, 1331 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2465 times:



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 6):
Stop being so blindly partisan and call them BOTH out for what they are: lying, spinning, same-as-usual politicians.

Aaron, you know that won't work in here. If you read what most folks post in here either Obama will bring an incredible utopia along with a perfect world or McCain will make you rich overnight and kill all the terrorists in the world with one swipe while running a marathon given that his healthier than a 30-yr-old.

In my opinion, they both failed miserably in connecting with the angry, bitter, and scared Americans who are caught in the middle of this economic crisis. Obama tried hopelessly to make it sound as if he really cared about the Middle Class; he succeeded in irritating me with comments such as "folks like ourselves" (referring to his and McCain's economic class status). I know you two are wealthy, no need to rub it in. He also came through as slightly arrogant as if being elected President is his birthright entitlement.

McCain, on the other hand, seemed calmer and more genuine at the beginning, but that quickly gave way to a slight bitterness. I don't want to tear him for being of age, but he did seem out of puff, as if he was annoyed to be there and have to answer our silly questions.

As for both, they once again missed the opportunity to provide details about their plans and make it clearer as to what they intend to do once in office. Both had blunders regarding foreign policy, and both (like in every debate) failed to answer a lot of questions directly.

All in all, Obama's positions are closer to mine (I'm a moderate socialist) than McCain's but Obama just doesn't come across as being trustworthy; McCain seems a bit more genuine in his care for the country but he has moved too far right to please his party that I can't recognize him anymore. I guess this is an election where I'll have to vote based on positions without regards to the candidate.


User currently offlineDvk From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1058 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2457 times:

I was disappointed in the debate. I support Obama, but felt neither he nor McCain did a great job. McCain's "that one" was disrespectful and condescending, as was his presumption that the early questioner didn't know anything about Fannie and Freddie. Neither one gave a knockout punch, which probably/hopefully does more to hurt McCain at this point.


I'm not dumb. I just have a command of thoroughly useless information.
User currently offlineBoeing757/767 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 2282 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2448 times:

Remember that Obama will raise our taxes -- Just for those making $250,000-plus.

Obama will raise taxes on small buisness -- He didn't say that.

Obama will socialized medicine and create a rationed-care system. NO! Get that our of your heads. He said (and you can verify) that everyone who likes his or her system can keep it. He's just making it easier to acquire health insurance through the market.

He insulted the current president about his reaction to 9/11. Deservedly so.

He mocks McCains plan but doesn't take about any specifics for his. Agreed on that one.



Free-thinking, left-leaning secularist
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 17, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2441 times:



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 6):
As we’ve pointed out when Obama said it on the campaign trail, when he repeated it at the last debate, and even when Biden mentioned the figure in the vice presidential debate, that number is wrong. The Iraqis actually “have” $29.4 billion in the bank.

You might want to keep a minute by minute check on $29.4 billion in the bank, Aaron, bearing in mind the way banks and their deposits are these days.  Wink I do wonder if that money was deposited anywhere other than in sticky paws.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 10):
Secondly, Bin Laden may have grabbed most of the publicity so far, but any idea that he's the sole leader of Muslim extremism - and that therefore knocking him off will solve the problem - is the purest garbage. Straight out of old-fashioned Western films - all you have to do is shoot all the 'black hats' off the rooftops, and then beat the head baddie to the draw, and you and the leading lady can ride off into the sunset and live happily ever after....

Yes, burying that chestnut would definitely be a step forward. I mean just look how shooting Saddam's sons to pieces calmed things down, and then catching Saddam and hanging him, that worked too???

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 10):
Muslim extremism is a world-wide political movement. And it can only be 'defeated' by political means. Trying to find a 'military solution' is just playing into the hands of people like Bin Laden.

Well yes, At least Petraeus has figured out the west cannot reasonably hope to kill its way to victory, well not without exterminating a fairish proportion of the Muslim population because as you kill the extremists, it irritates some of the more moderates and so on, and on and on again.

Best strategy would be to have a chat with the Jesuits as to how to go about it.
Or try:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Up!
for an appraisal of the technique.

Whatever, it would certainly be easier to deal with the children than the adults. Which is why allowing religious schools as a country such as Australia does has considerable potential for trouble.

Obama always strikes me as faintly Jesuitical beyond his US Christian heritage. Thank heaven he seems a lot more sensible than our local Jesuitical pollie, the Mad Monk himself, Mr A Abbott.


User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8289 posts, RR: 26
Reply 18, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2441 times:



Quoting Charles79 (Reply 14):
Aaron, you know that won't work in here. If you read what most folks post in here either Obama will bring an incredible utopia along with a perfect world or McCain will make you rich overnight and kill all the terrorists in the world with one swipe while running a marathon given that his healthier than a 30-yr-old.

Unfortunately, I think you're right - but it's exactly what America needs most. Voters still aren't DEMANDING of these two what they should...

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 14):
In my opinion, they both failed miserably in connecting with the angry, bitter, and scared Americans who are caught in the middle of this economic crisis.

Damn straight. I don't know what domestic CNN is playing these days, but there were some incensed people on CNN International this morning. An hour before the debate, Lou Dobbs questioned whether either candidate would bother telling the straight facts to the American people about this crisis and unfortunately he was on the right track because both Obama and McCain's handlers will not allow them to go the route of truth.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineSv7887 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1025 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2437 times:



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 18):
Quoting Charles79 (Reply 14):
In my opinion, they both failed miserably in connecting with the angry, bitter, and scared Americans who are caught in the middle of this economic crisis.

Damn straight. I don't know what domestic CNN is playing these days, but there were some incensed people on CNN International this morning. An hour before the debate, Lou Dobbs questioned whether either candidate would bother telling the straight facts to the American people about this crisis and unfortunately he was on the right track because both Obama and McCain's handlers will not allow them to go the route of truth.

This is exactly my sentiments! Where are the tough questions? Where is the "straight talk" that we are in serious trouble and in for some belt tightening?

One guy says he'll raise taxes and increase spending
Another guy says he'll cut some entitlements and give huge tax breaks..

Doesn't sound rooted in common sense to me....


User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12150 posts, RR: 49
Reply 20, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2417 times:

I watched the debate right up until the end prior to switching to what the experts take on the debate. I agree with what others have said, it was hardly a "town hall" meeting. It was more of the first debate just in a different state. I do find McCain coming across as bitter and hostile most of the time. His few attempts at humor failed miserably Obama at times seemed to me holding back telling off McCain. Also I though McCain brought up stuff already mentioned in the other debate forcing Obama to use his limited time to once again defend his position. I do feel that the citizens of the USA deserve better from there candidates.


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8976 posts, RR: 39
Reply 21, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2405 times:

Watching CNN, it's amazing how those lines measuring the undecided voters dropped every time McCain touched the Iraq subject. But I haven't heard much different from Obama, to be honest. He seems to stick to his talking points about his past record on the Iraq issue instead of sticking to his subject of "change" and focusing on the "future".

Both are hopeless on the economy.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 35
Reply 22, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2399 times:



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 19):
Where is the "straight talk" that we are in serious trouble and in for some belt tightening?

I don't think you can really blame either of them. I don't expect that Dubya has briefed either of them on the true situation - and even if he has, it'll likely be a damned sight worse by tomorrow. And it'll be late January before whichever of them gets elected will be able even to start governing - God knows what this appalling mess will look like by then.

The last politician who was free to be completely honest with the public was probably Winston Churchill in 1940 - "I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears, and sweat....". But he was fortified by the knowledge that he was heading a 'National Government' and would not have to face an election for at least five years. And ALSO that, with Hitler and his generals standing on the French coast only twenty miles away studying Britain through their binoculars, amid the wreckage of virtually the entire equipment of the British Army, no-one else was crazy enough even to want the job........



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2367 times:

I didn't see the debate, I was somewhere over America in a US Airways 319, but seeing clips this morning, what was up with Senator McCain refusing to shake Senator Obama hand at the end of the debate? Apparently Obama with the audience while McCain left right away.

User currently offlineAustinAllison From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 134 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2364 times:

McCain won the debate, easy. From my views, McCain won.

-McCain is for fair taxes, not class warfare like Sen. Obama. Raising the taxes on the wealthy,and large businesses, who pay 50 percent of taxes is not fair because those people create jobs here. If you tax those businesses they will only move more jobs from here in the US. Thats a fact. Obama made a huge mistake, most small business make more than 250,000 dollars a year, and he is going to tax them, which will eliminate jobs and raise prices
-Sen. Obama still can't admit Iraq is on the road to a success, after the surge
-His associations with a terrorist, and radical black racist is something left to be desired
-Obama's views on abortion are unforgivable. The only thing I can give him credit for is the "with exception to the mother's life" quote.
-Obama's against education vouchers, which undermines the child's education. He says it will undermine public education, but when a school is failing, a parent has every right in the world to change schools and withdraw funding from the failing school. Another example on how he is out of touch with Americans
-Health Care is not a right, as he says, rather a responsibility. People are much more responsible with their money, spending it for their own insurance, rather than a Universal System that is easily abused and basically a handout.


Obama is fundamentally wrong in his policies. His ideas will lead us into a system that eliminates responsibility from everyday life. It is not the governments responsibility to provide healthcare in any situation. People know how much a dollar is worth if they spend/save it rather than contribute to the government. If elected, Barack Obama will preside over the worst U.S. economy, not due to anything any current official has done, but because of his out of control policies that will push us farther into debt, and eliminate millions of jobs. Sure he is a good speaker, but it is no substitute for his out of touch policies.


25 Charles79 : Did any of their carefully rehearsed soundbites sound rooted in common sense? It would have been a hilarious act of comedy if it weren't our own coun
26 A332 : Please. Bush & co were eyeing up Iraq while the World Trade Centre was still smoldering. Afghanistan has never been much of a priority. Exactly.
27 Post contains links StuckInCA : That's exactly how I saw things. In fact, he seemed short of breath at times. http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/0...ain-campaigns-small-business-myt
28 Ken777 : Watching the debates this time was basically waiting for one of the two to screw up, and generally they didn't. McCain was McCain and Obama was Obama.
29 AGM100 : Not this one , McCain played it too safe. And I dont mean bringing up Ayres and all that. He lets himself get lumped in with all of this mess when fr
30 StuckInCA : Really? Some probably do, but I don't think that's what Obama has as a plan. I know I don't want the government to control it. I just think that ever
31 AustinAllison : A Small business employs between 20 and 200 people. -Scenario: A Local Grocery store has a work force, not including management, of 30 people all gett
32 Mt99 : Isnt payroll tax deductible for businesses?. Do you know the difference between "net" and "gross"?[Edited 2008-10-08 10:21:49]
33 AustinAllison : Are you kidding me? Pay Roll Tax Deductible? NO! Everything the business makes from transactions is taxable including pay roll. Just like everything
34 Post contains links Mt99 : What are you talking about? Wages are business expense and therefore tax deductible... http://www.kiplinger.com/features/ar...s/2007/01/businesstaxop
35 AustinAllison : Point them out
36 Mt99 : OK. I will but so that i do not waste my time. First tell me the difference between "Gross" and "Net"..
37 AustinAllison : Gross is before the expenses, taxes; net is after such expenses and deductions.
38 AGM100 : Thats Fair CA , So why cant it be like car insurance ? Free choice and market drives the price up and down. When the government gets involved it scre
39 Post contains links Mt99 : Good boy.. Now the 250k limit is based on NET values.. .. read this.. someone saved me the trouble... http://www.time-blog.com/swampland/2008/07/fior
40 AirCop : Actually, the business would have to make $754,560 over it's costs of doing business, (rent, inventory, legal expenses, ads, utilities etc) just to m
41 AustinAllison : " target=_blank>http://www.time-blog.com/swampland/2....html The problem is Obama's never pointed that out. How do we know?
42 Mt99 : Ding Ding!!! And that profit would have the be OVER the $250k..
43 DucatiRacer : Look at the profile - age 16-20. You are arguing with someone who probably has not even had a real job, much less owned a business. Don't waste your
44 AGM100 : Another thing ,, are we honestly to believe that the old windbag from NBC was the best moderator they could find ? The guy looked drugged , Brokaw was
45 StuckInCA : As a moderator? LOL. That guy's more capable of starting a riot than moderating anything. Think about the word "moderator" for a few minutes and then
46 AGM100 : Why because he called Barney Frank a coward ?... he was right, Frank was blaming everyone else and taking no responsibility for oversight of his comm
47 Sv7887 : O'Reilly is the biggest windbag out there. I don't have cable at home, and two weeks ago when I was in DC, I turned the TV on and listened to the cra
48 Charles79 : Well you'd have to be in order to ingest all that BS coming from both of them! Bill O'Reilly is a bit too conservative for my taste but he does ask p
49 Alias1024 : That was one of the most boring and forgettable debates in the history of presidental debates. I'll call it a draw, because neither did or said anythi
50 Post contains links StasisLAX : There is no guaranteed magic bullet solution to the issues that we're facing - economic crisis, oil, global warming, etc. I think that it's time that
51 StuckInCA : I just don't see how you could get from the entrenched 2 party system we have to one where any third party has legitimate numbers. My views match wit
52 N174UA : You're just talking about base wages here. You haven't even mentioned the employer's responsibility for federal taxes on those wages! Hell, Social Se
53 Mt99 : Oy Vey! Does anyone have a second hand economics book for these people?
54 StasisLAX : My recommendation to you is to vote for what you believe, and not whether you're "wasting your vote". In 1992, 20 percent of voters cast their vote f
55 Mir : Do you have a link to that claim? Salary.com is a software company, not a think tank. A search of "net income" on their site produced no returns. See
56 AustinAllison : no, but I was going off of what i thought would be reasonable. So I am open to other thoughts
57 NAV20 : Guys, we're in a 'deletion cycle' here. Most of AustinAllison's posts have been deleted. I replied to one of his that has been deleted, so my reply go
58 Post contains links Mir : Rule #1: If you want your statements to be taken seriously, you need to support them. Just because you think something is true does not make it true.
59 NAV20 : Since that expected deletion hasn't happened, I may as well re-post what I said originally. If only because it refers to other things besides 'sociall
60 Baroque : Now you could follow that analysis through to a fairly strong conclusion as to what is the better thing to do. Which is of course to wonder if: at le
61 Slz396 : Back to the debate itself and the body language: I have a feeling of having seen a debate between the future President and an old, tired man who think
62 MD80fanatic : More ageism and sexism from the looney left. Keep it up boys and girls, and watch your miniscule lead vaporize.
63 AustinAllison : So what is socially just anyway? Class Warfare? Punishing someone for being more successful than the other guy? Taking from the rich and giving to th
64 Charles79 : I support this idea completely. I know, I know, we do have "other" parties but did you see any of their candidates on the news last night? At the deb
65 Post contains images NAV20 : That's twice that you've commented on just two words of my post, AustinAllison. Taking them out of context at that - since I specifically ruled out '
66 Hkg82 : Good debate I thought. Good but not great. These debates are really lacking tough, penetrating questions. They are pretty much the same questions over
67 NAV20 : Agree, Hkg82 - but, to be fair to both candidates, all they can really do is 'go through the motions.' They know, the 'moderator' knows, the audience
68 Post contains links NAV20 : PS - talk about 'a sign of the times' :- "The US government's debts have ballooned so badly the National Debt Clock in New York has run out of digits
69 Usair320 : Ya' know..... As pro-life as I am.............. You know Palin wouldn't even give it to a rape victim? (luckily McCaine is the opposite) That's my de
70 NAV20 : Agree with that as well, Baroque. Yet another factor is compulsory superannuation savings. Obviously making people save for retirement is sensible on
71 Aaron747 : You know, there's nothing wrong with taking a principled stand and giving NEITHER OF THOSE LOSERS your vote.
72 Usair320 : Your right, They're both losers. If hillary were in this she would get my vote hands down. I'm just trying to keep McCaine/Palin out of the whit hous
73 Luv2fly : Just an FYI McCain is leaning towards the Palin school of thought, probably in hopes of winning votes, though I would no longer trust him. If you do
74 Charles79 : Even though I feel like Aaron747 and don't think that either choice is relatively decent (to put it mildly, cause I think they both suck, though McCa
75 Aaron747 : Don't give me that - there are plenty of other options on the ballot other than these two. I will vote for someone, it just won't be either of these
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