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Why Do So Many Americans Loath Socialism?  
User currently offlineKLMCedric From Belgium, joined Dec 2003, 812 posts, RR: 22
Posted (6 years 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4808 times:

Why does this word, and what it stands for have such a negative connotation in the USA.
It seems to me that for a large american community, socialist are no better then communists,
or fundamental muslims.

Only just a minute ago a saw a man, on a Mc Cain convention, ventilating his fear about how
those "socialist hooligans" are about to take over the country.

So please enlighten me, what's the deal with that?

I didn't start this thread in order to debate which system is better then the other, but I live in a
socialist country, and so far , I can't say it has inconvenienced me in any way.

[Edited 2008-10-10 05:02:02]

159 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineNicoEDDF From Germany, joined Jan 2008, 1101 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (6 years 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4797 times:

Hey Cedric,

just to understand, you feel like Belgium is a socialist country?

Is it possible that you equal social-democrazy with socialism?
If so, that is untrue.

But I might just misunderstand it  Smile


User currently offlineJCS17 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 8065 posts, RR: 39
Reply 2, posted (6 years 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4788 times:

How about because it's a complete and utter failure in the vast majority of places where it is implemented. Government, by nature, is highly inefficient, and what happens when government takes a large role in supporting inefficient members of society through welfare, health care, and other such garbage? It just becomes a giant black hole. Go look at the ghettos of the US and Europe... What is the difference (aside from the hatred towards Western Civilization in the European ones)? Nothing at all.

Most Americans don't see government as an answer to their problems, it's as simple as that.



America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8184 posts, RR: 26
Reply 3, posted (6 years 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4775 times:



Quoting JCS17 (Reply 2):
Government, by nature, is highly inefficient, and what happens when government takes a large role in supporting inefficient members of society through welfare, health care, and other such garbage? It just becomes a giant black hole. Go look at the ghettos of the US and Europe... What is the difference (aside from the hatred towards Western Civilization in the European ones)? Nothing at all.

Most Americans don't see government as an answer to their problems, it's as simple as that.

You know, the funny thing about all that, true as it may be, is we've got one of the largest bureaucracies among the industrialized nations in terms of services per capita, and the second highest public debt per capita in the world as well. That's an awful lot of bloat and inefficiency - which only goes to show that both parties are incredibly inept at reflecting the will of the people, if that's truly what it is.

This latest foray into financial madness will really test the waters of reaction and/or acceptance to socialist principles - as most Americans have never collectively watched their privately-funded retirements evaporate in a matter of weeks.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineNicoEDDF From Germany, joined Jan 2008, 1101 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (6 years 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4772 times:



Quoting JCS17 (Reply 2):
Go look at the ghettos of the US and Europe... What is the difference (aside from the hatred towards Western Civilization in the European ones)?

Pls explain that. Would like to understand your statement


User currently offlineKLMCedric From Belgium, joined Dec 2003, 812 posts, RR: 22
Reply 5, posted (6 years 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4760 times:



Quoting NicoEDDF (Reply 1):
just to understand, you feel like Belgium is a socialist country?

Well I wouldn't go as far as saying that, but if you compared Belgium to the USA ,it's pretty
clear which one of those two nations is the most socialist.


User currently offlineNorthStarDC4M From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 3038 posts, RR: 36
Reply 6, posted (6 years 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4756 times:
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We up here shake our heads every time at those statements...

As far as I've ever figured out Americans don't really understand socialism, they just know:

Socialism=Reds do that! OMG! It's evil!

Truth is, I've had Americans ask me as a Canadian if we have a police force that arrests you for sneezing!? Or do we have elections... It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

For the record: Canada has socialist programs (that do work despite what some propaganda says), free elections with more than 2 parties, actually we are approaching election day next week... and I've never seen someone fined for sneezing much less arrested.



Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7558 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (6 years 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4755 times:

I think American Joe associates social democracies with socialism/communism, countries like Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Iceland, Finland are all social democracies and I don't think you could call any of them failure's, in fact they normally make up the top five places in the world to live, other countries like NZ, Australia, Canada all have social welfare systems and fall somewhere between social democratic countries and free market economies like the US, all the above mentioned countries have government provided healthcare which is as from my understanding more efficient and fairer than the US system, in NZ and Australia you also have the option of private medical.

Quoting JCS17 (Reply 2):
Most Americans don't see government as an answer to their problems, it's as simple as that.

That's because they've spent the last 60 years thinking socialism and communism are the same thing. It's ingrained and can't be stamped out, kinda like tipping, we all know its stupid but have to go along with it anyway.


User currently offlineNicoEDDF From Germany, joined Jan 2008, 1101 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (6 years 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4740 times:



Quoting KLMCedric (Reply 5):
Well I wouldn't go as far as saying that, but if you compared Belgium to the USA ,it's pretty
clear which one of those two nations is the most socialist.

Ok  Smile

But I beg to differ between socialism and social-democratic structure.
Socialist countries are former Warsaw-Pact countries.

Every European democratic country is social-democratic though.

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 6):
We up here shake our heads every time at those statements...

As far as I've ever figured out Americans don't really understand socialism, they just know:

Socialism=Reds do that! OMG! It's evil!

Truth is, I've had Americans ask me as a Canadian if we have a police force that arrests you for sneezing!? Or do we have elections... It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

For the record: Canada has socialist programs (that do work despite what some propaganda says), free elections with more than 2 parties, actually we are approaching election day next week... and I've never seen someone fined for sneezing much less arrested.

Yes, so true. You could cry sometimes you hear things like "Isn't Germany the island besides the UK"?


User currently offlineFalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6126 posts, RR: 29
Reply 9, posted (6 years 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4738 times:
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Americans don't like Socialism because we are not a socialist country.

Quoting JCS17 (Reply 2):
Most Americans don't see government as an answer to their problems, it's as simple as that.

Screw the government. The government just creates more problems than they solve. Keep the government out of my life and off my back.

Quoting JCS17 (Reply 2):
Go look at the ghettos of the US and Europe... What is the difference (aside from the hatred towards Western Civilization in the European ones)? Nothing at all.

It is the same,,, Most ghettos are filled with lazy dead beats who want to mooch off of the government and blame their problems on somebody else. It is always somebody's fault why they are poor. Those that have get up and go work their way out.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 3):
as most Americans have never collectively watched their privately-funded retirements evaporate in a matter of weeks.

It hasn't evaporated. It has declined, but not disappeared. Mine has gone done 17%. It will go back up again. Those who remember 1987 shouldn't get too worried. In a few years things will be up again and we'll forget the lessons we learned in 2008. People never learn from history. Just a few months ago we were hearing oil would be at $200 a barrel. Back in the 70s we heard that gold would never go below $1000, the experts were wrong on both accounts.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
Reply 10, posted (6 years 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4729 times:



Quoting JCS17 (Reply 2):
Most Americans don't see government as an answer to their problems, it's as simple as that.

Which is why people are so angry at the "bailout". Government caused the mess to begin with, and in trying to fix it, they have ended up robbing the market of liquidity and now we might have a full blown recession on our hands.

It's called the Law of Unintended Consequences. The government is a very large sledgehammer, not a jeweler's screwdriver, and whenever it expends its energy, maybe it achieves its primary purpose but causes a lot of unintended side effects as well. For example, the well-intentioned policies which created welfare and medicaid as an assistance to the poor ended up destroying the fabric that held families together in low-income society. Another example, Social Security - well intentioned as a last-ditch source of retirement income, has resulted in millions of americans believing that they don't need to save up on their own, that social security will provide for them. Or minimum wage laws, also well intentioned, squeeze out employment that might be offered if the cost were lower - i.e. some labor-intensive industries (like rug-making) simply are not economically feasible in the US.

I'm not saying we should not have a government or these government programs. But the essence of conservatism is the recognition that these side-effects will happen, and that we should be very careful in wielding that big sledgehammer.

The current economic crisis is a perfect case in point. The noble idea of making the purchase of a home more affordable ended up undermining the entire financial system.

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 6):
As far as I've ever figured out Americans don't really understand socialism, they just know:

I have lived and worked in Europe, the former soviet union, Vietnam, and a variety of other places. I've seen what socialism does and don't want any of it here, thank you very much.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineHowSwedeitis From Sweden, joined Jul 2007, 586 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4728 times:
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Quoting JCS17 (Reply 2):
when government takes a large role in supporting inefficient members

Ah. That's why we need to have the 700 billion dollar bail out right...  sarcastic  I love it when Republicans say "GOVERNMENT IS HORRIBLE!" Then they take charge, screw everything up, then say, "SEE! WE TOLD YOU!!"

I believe in the mixed economy system. With the benefits of both systems working together. I find it funny how so many politicians say, "Americans are the greatest workers in the world." Really? Then why do you treat them so horribly? Bad insurance, no vacation... I guess keeping workers ignorant keeps them in line.

-HSII



Heja Sverige!!
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8184 posts, RR: 26
Reply 12, posted (6 years 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4718 times:



Quoting HowSwedeitis (Reply 11):
Really? Then why do you treat them so horribly? Bad insurance, no vacation... I guess keeping workers ignorant keeps them in line.

A highly selective criticism. Plenty of countries are worse. Japanese companies offer a lot of vacation but salaries are pitiful compared to Europe and the US and without large twice-yearly bonuses would amount to barely enough to live on in many cases. Japanese employment law looks strong on paper but corporations operate on the premise that they can use longstanding cultural conventions to pressure workers into forgoing their vacation time and/or working many hours of overtime beyond the monthly caps that are actually eligible for pay.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineKLMCedric From Belgium, joined Dec 2003, 812 posts, RR: 22
Reply 13, posted (6 years 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4719 times:



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
I've seen what socialism does and don't want any of it here, thank you very much.

So what exactly does it do that you don't want over there?
That's why I started this thread, because I'm interested in why you think it's bad, don't just
tell me you don't want any of it, cos I already knew that!


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 14, posted (6 years 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4720 times:

Good question, KLMCedric.

Once had to inform my (Californian) nephews on the point. Prior to our discussion, as far as I could tell, before our talk, all the way from Manhattan Beach Primary to UCLA, they'd been taught that socialism=communism.

However, I reckon myself that Europeans tend to misunderstand the US system of government. Technically, the United States is not a democracy - it is a republic. And it has a unique form of government (devised way back in the 18th. Century by the Founding Fathers) which is based on the 'separation of powers' - basically a system under which neither the President nor the Congress could assume or exercise total power.

Conversely, most of Europe misunderstands the American approach. And has instead tended towards an arguably more 'democratic' system under which a government, once elected with a majority, can do pretty well what the hell it it likes until it is voted out of power.

On the one hand, the American system has obvious defects, in that the odd Nixon or George W, Bush can commit actual crimes and be more or less sure that it will take the best part of two terms before Congress and/or the Supreme Court can catch up with them. On the other, any unscrupulous European prime minister, so long as he enjoys a parliamentary majority, can pass laws granting himself universal powers. Hitler being the most recent example, and Putin very possibly being the next one.

Not sure which side I'm on. I'm lucky (in this and many other ways) that 'push' has never come to 'shove,' as far as the system of government that I live under is concerned. But I DO tend to 'fall back' on the cooments of two of my political 'heroes' whenever this subject comes up:-

"As to the policy I "seem to be pursuing" as you say, I have not meant to leave any one in doubt.

"I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the Constitution. The sooner the national authority can be restored; the nearer the Union will be "the Union as it was." If there be those who would not save the Union, unless they could at the same time save slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that."


That was Abraham Lincoln - not calling on democracy, but stating his case for the preservation of the 'Republic.' No ifs, no buts. And also:-

"Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried."

That was Winston Churchill, shortly before he was voted out of office by the very same democratic system that awarded no 'points' for the fact that he had probably done more than any other single person to make sure that Germany, Italy, Japan, and Russia (yes, Russia - happy to enter into discussions with anyone who objects to me including them on the Axis side) did not win WW2.

So, basically, KLMCedric, Europe and the United States are close cousins, but they're not brother and sister, stil less man and wife. The two systems share the same ideals - but they both represent more-than-subtly different routes towards the same goal.



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineFalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6126 posts, RR: 29
Reply 15, posted (6 years 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4709 times:
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Quoting HowSwedeitis (Reply 11):
I love it when Republicans say "GOVERNMENT IS HORRIBLE!" Then they take charge, screw everything up, then say, "SEE! WE TOLD YOU!!"

Today's Republicans aren't real Republicans. They are the old tax and spend Democrats. The Republicans need to spend less time worrying about social issues and get back to what made them great; small government and Conservative financial principles.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
have lived and worked in Europe, the former soviet union, Vietnam, and a variety of other places. I've seen what socialism does and don't want any of it here, thank you very much.

The Americans who love socialism are usually the type that never have lived under it.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 7):
kinda like tipping, we all know its stupid but have to go along with it anyway.

We go along with that because we know that the average restuarant worker makes something like $2 an hour. (they are exempt from the minimum wage law) so we feel we have to givethem something so they can make a living.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7558 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (6 years 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4711 times:



Quoting HowSwedeitis (Reply 11):
"Americans are the greatest workers in the world."

Gosh when have Americans everr been the greatest workers in the world?


User currently offlineFalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6126 posts, RR: 29
Reply 17, posted (6 years 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4700 times:
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Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 16):
Gosh when have Americans everr been the greatest workers in the world?

Yea, all Americans are lazy bums.... Our country didn't get to be powerful by being filled with lazy bums. However we have a lot more dead beats than we used to. The more welfare and government handouts there are the lazier we have become. Also the lazy slackers tend to have more kids and they grow up to be bums too. Then they drain my society of more tax money. It is a vicious circle.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineKLMCedric From Belgium, joined Dec 2003, 812 posts, RR: 22
Reply 18, posted (6 years 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4690 times:

Since I feel this thread could go the wrong direction very easily, I would like to ask anyone
participating here to use all of his diplomatic talents, and think twice before writing down anything.

I started this out of pure interest/curiosity,and because it's actual,with the coming elections and don't want to see this evolve into a Euro vs USA thread.


User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9524 posts, RR: 42
Reply 19, posted (6 years 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4661 times:



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
I have lived and worked in Europe, the former soviet union, Vietnam, and a variety of other places. I've seen what socialism does and don't want any of it here, thank you very much.

But you're lumping very different types of government together. In the former Soviet Union there was a managed economy and almost everything was run by the state. In "socialist" Western European countries, you have private healthcare for those who want it and can afford it, private education for those who want it and can afford it, you're not restricted to the state pension if you want to invest elsewhere, you have a mostly free economy with only a few exceptions (and those are becoming fewer), etc.

You're lumping together communist countries with democratic countries that have some social programmes.

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 15):
The Americans who love socialism are usually the type that never have lived under it.

And the Europeans who love social democracy seem to be the ones who have lived under it.  Smile


User currently offlineJakeOrion From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (6 years 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4656 times:



Quoting KLMCedric (Reply 18):
Since I feel this thread could go the wrong direction very easily, I would like to ask anyone
participating here to use all of his diplomatic talents, and think twice before writing down anything.

I view socialism as one step towards communism. If officials were incorruptible, then I wouldn't have any problem with socialism. However, here in the states, virtually every politician is corrupt, and when he or she has access to that type of power, very easy to quickly switch over to communism or even dictatorship. So while socialism may work for you in your country, it doesn't necessarily work in ours.

Basically, you can see it as our people are more prone to be corrupted by the system than yours. It takes a strong willed person to think what is best for the people, not for him/herself. And frankly, with the bunch of looney toons we have in office right now, basically, OH HELL NO!!!



Every problem has a simple solution; finding the simple solution is the difficult problem.
User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (6 years 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4636 times:



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 9):
Keep the government out of my life and off my back.

Don't you work for a government agency - a school district?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
Another example, Social Security - well intentioned as a last-ditch source of retirement income, has resulted in millions of americans believing that they don't need to save up on their own, that social security will provide for them.

The real problem with Social Security is that it is being used as a catch all ( disability payments for drug users etc) instead of what it was designed for supplemental retirement income.

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 15):
The Republicans need to spend less time worrying about social issues and get back to what made them great; small government and Conservative financial principles.

It's been a long time since Republicans at the national level actually practiced what they preached.


User currently offlineKLMCedric From Belgium, joined Dec 2003, 812 posts, RR: 22
Reply 22, posted (6 years 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4636 times:



Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 20):
view socialism as one step towards communism. If officials were incorruptible, then I wouldn't have any problem with socialism. However, here in the states, virtually every politician is corrupt, and when he or she has access to that type of power, very easy to quickly switch over to communism or even dictatorship. So while socialism may work for you in your country, it doesn't necessarily work in ours.

Basically, you can see it as our people are more prone to be corrupted by the system than yours. It takes a strong willed person to think what is best for the people, not for him/herself. And frankly, with the bunch of looney toons we have in office right now, basically, OH HELL NO!!!

Thank you for that explanation.

The way I see it is that living in a country with a social democracy brings me some nice
perks in my life.
If for some reason I ever lose my job, I wont have to go without a salary in search of a new one.
If I ever fall seriously ill, I won't have to fork out 10s of thousands of Euro's for med care.
I will retire at 65 and enjoy a state-funded pension (topped off with a private one).
My country's law states that everyone is entiteld to at least 4weeks paid vacation/year.
Etc, etc,

Now I just don't see what so bad about that, and why apparently many (mostly republican?)
Americans get revolted just by the thought of living in such a system.
Quite honestly, that's just beyond me!


User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9524 posts, RR: 42
Reply 23, posted (6 years 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4636 times:



Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 20):
So while socialism may work for you in your country, it doesn't necessarily work in ours.

That's a fair point. The most painful part would be the changeover. Already having social programmes doesn't hurt as much as suddenly starting them because, ultimately, some will suddenly have to start paying for them.


User currently offlineCharles79 From Puerto Rico, joined Mar 2007, 1331 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (6 years 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4631 times:

KLMCedric,

very good question. I prefer socialism myself and I'm baffled at how my fellow Americans associate the term with communism or something along those lines. Truth is, ALL Americans have benefited throughout their lives from government programs, and they could be better off if we could get around that erroneous concept of equaling socialism to welfare and keeping up lazy dead beats who mooch off the work of others. We have a great country, no doubt about that, but I look around and the average person is not happy. In many cities salaries for the middle class are barely enough to cover the costs of housing, food, health care, etc. Where it used to be that you could make a career out of basic jobs such as cashiers, bank tellers, teachers or airport agents now these jobs barely pay to cover the cost of the commute alone! Healthcare costs are way out of touch with reality, and beyond the 40M Americans without insurance millions more are underinsured or are faced with huge bills if something goes wrong. Our education system is on the tank in most cities, our infrastructure is becoming obsolete real fast and because of our inexplicable affinity with the private car and suburbia most people now spend a good chunk of their lives commuting to/from work without viable mass transit alternatives in many parts of the country. Add to that the fact that we work longer hours and take much less vacation and you see why the average person is not happy with the current situation.

I'm not going to say that socialism would cure all of the above but certainly a more socialist mindset would help. Folks in the US always joke about how much more in taxes the Europeans pay but they fail to realize that in many of those countries the taxes are put to good use for the benefit of everyone in society. Governments can afford to offer better infrastructure, subsidize mass transit systems, offer better education (and often cheaper college education) and so on. Are they perfect? Of course not (and I've heard many Europeans complain about their own governments, a lot!). But look at some of the countries that are the perennial best places to live in and their government structure does resemble a socialist one.

The counter argument I always hear is that the private citizens have better judgement and will spend their money wiser, that's why we should keep lower taxes and a small government. That's true to an extent, but the private citizen is selfish (human nature) and will not willingly donate money do things to improve the society around him, things like education, bridges, programs for the blind, or even a social worker to go and visit the elderly that are left alone by their families. Americans are indeed very generous, no doubt, but it's far more efficient to have a central government to re-distribute the wealth.

Which brings to my final point, the re-distribution of wealth. That's a sore subject for anyone, as folks always contend that if I make my money I should keep it, if the next person didn't make as much then too bad. Well, the concept here is that you made your money because society enabled you to. The country provided you with a safe environment in which you could receive an education then attend college and so on (and even if you never touched a grant or scholarship your college, private or not, existed in part thanks to government grants). Now that you have a business (or work for one) it makes money thanks to society, so it's only fair to give back a bit to ensure the rest of the system works. Like I said at the opening, socialism is not about keeping lazy people alive or keeping up ghettos or anything like that. It's about society helping itself to prosper, stay safe, and move on (which is why I also believe is mandatory service for at least a year, not necessarily military as an all-volunteer army has proven to work better, but doing jobs in the cities and towns to get closer to how our country and community works).

I know, I know, I'll get flamed left and right here for sounding utopian and whatever but that's what I believe in. This is my country, I love it, and I only want the best for it, not just what's best only for me.

And in case anyone wonders, I'm not a Democrat (nor a Republican); I'm an Independent voter and proud of it.


25 Falstaff : I do... The Government has put so many rules and restrictions on schools these days in order to fix them that they keep screwing them up. I teach aut
26 ScarletHarlot : KLMCedric, I think there is a fundamental belief in the US, a focus on the individual, that helps to cause socialism to be a bad word. Here in the US
27 Slider : Not just that, but the Law of Inevitable Outcome. When government is involved, you know it will get screwed up. I agree with this completely…of all
28 ANITIX87 : Most Americans see Socialism as the first step towards Communism. Socialism is only a failure when paired with corruption, as it was in the Soviet Un
29 Baroque : Probably true Aaron, but the counter arguments are tending to be even more selective. The most amusing of the assertions is that government is by def
30 NicoEDDF : Sorry NAV20, but it doesn't seem you should talk about the european governments without having the slightest clue. Some people do misunderstand. As is
31 AirCop : This what happens when legislators get involved in something they know nothing about. Let teachers teach; sometimes learning actually is the product
32 Post contains links Baroque : Sorry to quote myself, but right on cue I went to read the letters in Sats SMH and find: http://www.smh.com.au/letters/?page=fullpage#contentSwap1 Wh
33 Post contains links Baroque : And here is another model that perhaps ought to be put in the mix. And very popular this will be!!! http://business.smh.com.au/business/...rides-the-s
34 Astuteman : The difficulties start when the appelation is used to cover a whole spectrum of legislatia, which contain some element of socialism, but the appelati
35 IAirAllie : I understand what socialism is and I still don't like it. I was born in BC. Agreed and they piss me off. If only the alternative wasn't worse. The ch
36 PPVRA : "Market efficiency" is often reduced to managerial efficiency, but that is not what it is meant by it. Market efficiency is about efficient allocatio
37 DocLightning : Like all of Western Europe is a total failure? I see...
38 EWRCabincrew : I saw that same clip. That man wouldn't know a "socialist hooligan" if he were right in front of him. He comes from a generation where socialists = r
39 IAirAllie : As pointed out many times above those are not pure socialist countries. They use various forms of social-democracy.
40 KLMCedric : Well, IMO that's not the same because you're talking about private insurance companies. They take care of their own interests in the first place, and
41 AGM100 : It does not matter if we loath it ... it is happening anyway. The government is getting further and further entrenched in our systems and it is being
42 KLMCedric : I'm not talking about pure socialism here, but about social- democracies. And I don't think people from the Republican camp should consider Obama a p
43 AGM100 : Not so much about Obama , but all three of our Federal branches of government will be ruled by those who have socialist ideas. We will have no balanc
44 DL021 : in most cases socialism acts as a disincentive to advance. The only way it works is to force everyone to accept the same standards and it actually put
45 IAirAllie : Then maybe your thread title should read "Why do Americans hate social-democracies?"
46 David L : Ah, you've also fallen into the trap of equating socialism with social democracy.
47 P3Orion : To put it as basic and simple as I can, I don't want the Federal Government to be my mommy and daddy.
48 Slider : Given the hints of Marxism in his background which have been summarily glossed over, his voting record, etc, there is reason for trepidation. Such as
49 A342 : So you don't think that the USA's $10 trillion debt is a problem?
50 PPVRA : It is very common for people to pay for their medical bills "under the table" in Brazil to avoid having to pay sales tax, and the Doctor avoid having
51 ANITIX87 : Didn't you post this exact thing in another thread a while back?? It sounds awfully familiar for some reason. I'm just curious, not criticising. Glad
52 PPVRA : Not sure, could be. I tend to talk about these things a lot
53 NorthStarDC4M : Sorry... bankrupting the nation??? I'm more than a little confused, Canada isn't gong bankrupt, neither are Japan, France, the UK, Sweden... all have
54 Alias1024 : I think that the majority of Americans are too ignorant to understand the difference between Socialism and Communism. The just remember from history c
55 Mir : Unfortunately, that is the opinion of many in the US. It's a shame, because it tries to reduce very complicated economic philosophy into black and wh
56 MD80fanatic : Socialism is incompatible with independence, by definition. That's why we loath it. To have and be satisfied by socialism is to put nearly complete tr
57 David L : Switzerland isn't a democracy with social programmes? And what chance does he have of imposing Marxists policies on the USA?
58 Slider : Better than you might think….we’ve been incrementally slipping into that abyss for decades now. Look at the events of the past week. Congress jus
59 Astuteman : Perfectly phrased, if I may say so, Mir. It seems to be an A-net obsession to consider everything in "black-and-white" terms, when in fact, most of o
60 EWRCabincrew : Government at its finest.
61 Post contains links Slider : http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/...hy_obamas_communist_connectio.html Government at its finest indeed. Yet a candidate such as Obama continues to
62 David L : It's also an offshoot of democracy with a certain degree of conscience. Except that there's confusion with the terminology. Socialism, in it's practi
63 David L : Was that instigated by Obama? You'll just have to take my word that I wrote my "black and white" blurb before I'd read yours. I agree, obviously.
64 11Bravo : Beyond a.net, I think your characterization applies fairly broadly to the American Public. The Populist movement in the Republican Party is perhaps t
65 Post contains links DL021 : I understand why they do it, but to see taxation on doctors services is amazing. The recent turn to the left (further left for Brasil) hasn't seemed
66 NicoEDDF : What is it with you Americans? Socialism is NOT by definition incompatible with independence. You Americans loath it because for decades you have bee
67 Slider : No. That's not what I said nor remotely implied. But Obama is clearly of the big-government ilk with clear-cut undeniable ties to avowed anti-America
68 Dreadnought : Not incompatible, but it is the antithesis, just as Liberalism (American Liberalism, that is) is the antithesis of Conservatism. Elements of each can
69 Slz396 : I think there is wide consensus here on the fact that social-democracy is not the same as outright socialism and definitely not the same as communism,
70 DL021 : That's an opinion. Socialism is the acceptance of a limiting of your freedom and independence for a measure of (false) security. Wow.....that's a bit
71 Dreadnought : Correct. Social Democracy (to use your term) sees government as a legitimate and valid tool to level the field in terms of results, not just of possi
72 SKAirbus : Well to be honest i'm shocked at American's ignorance surrounding socialism... Let's get this straight Socialism is NOT communism at all... Denmark ha
73 Superfly : Morgan Stanley and AIG certainly don't have a problem with socialism.
74 David L : Then I confess I have no idea what you meant by this... ... especially when you went on to cite something pushed through by the Republican president.
75 ANITIX87 : Yes. Again, I never said Switzerland was completely socialist, or completely democratic, I just said there is a rather socialist movement. Especially
76 ContnlEliteCMH : Beautiful. You have spoken my mind on this issue. I only believe in equality under the law, that all citizens must be treated equally by the law. (Ou
77 David L : It's a last resort. If you rely on the welfare state, there's no fancy house, no plasma TV, no nice car, no expensive holidays. Yes, there's a small
78 NicoEDDF : Do you even realize the affectation implied in this?? I repeat my statement, YOU don't have ANY experience with real socialism but from your anti-red
79 ContnlEliteCMH : Your socialist system works... FOR YOU. The good news for "us over here" is that we get to choose what works FOR US. What is it with some of you? Not
80 MD80fanatic : I don't use healthcare, haven't in 25 years. Family paid for the higher education. Never received unemployment benefits (never needed it) I have no w
81 Dc863 : Socialism means bureaucracy, big gov't, and high taxes. Everything the average American hates and everything our forefathers were against in the 18th
82 ContnlEliteCMH : Required reading for somebody who doesn't understand our system of government: electoral college. Our founding fathers thought it was a good idea, an
83 NicoEDDF : Fine for you, you obey your rules, we obey ours. First of all: NAV20 was promoting things like separation of power and the way in Europe dictators co
84 SKAirbus : You see this is what i'm talking about... US society is very selfish.. each to their own... I don't mind paying higher taxes and i don't use many of
85 AirCop : One can make an argument that capitalism in the United States is exhausted as a force for progress. Some researchers will state that capitalism has b
86 Superfly : Or slavery back when the US was first founded. Wal-Mart is the one company that resist any sort of basic workers rights. Wal-Mart is the closet thing
87 NoUFO : Buy a Webster's. // snip snap I'm going to make a case here: - Any country's most prominent responsibility is to protect its citizens. That is, prote
88 Slz396 : Indeed... Now, logic dictated that on both sides of the pond and regardless the system, only a small portion of people will be really successful wher
89 Post contains images Keesje : Because they were brought up that way. By their parents, teachers, Holywood, the cold war, you name it. I have seen a lot of things in the US that wo
90 Post contains links StasisLAX : If you are an American Libertarian, as I am, this is what I believe and therefore why I loathe socialism in any form. " We hold that all individuals h
91 Mir : My point, Ian, was that you can't make the claim that a country is either socialist or not. There is a massive grey area between the two, and it is i
92 NoUFO : Welfare European style hardly spoils people's right to live in whatever manner they choose. (If it does.) There is no right to being selfish. Propert
93 StasisLAX : A citizen's property rights are entitled to the same protection as that citizen's human rights! The owners of property must have the full right to co
94 NoUFO : Property rights are guaranteed by the Constitution (ours as well), in other words: by state in other words: by the public. The puplic can therefore d
95 MD80fanatic : Please do not underestimate the generosity of the American public. We take care of our own, by choice....not by force. BTW, you sound like struggling
96 Post contains links FruteBrute : Because the American electorate is stupid. The rabid, angry, right wing has blasted anything and everything that could be beneficial to Joe American
97 AirCop : Thanks for the link, made for interesting reading.
98 Csavel : American's dont loathe socialism. They loathe socialism when the other guy gets stuff from it and when they don't. Those red state republicans certain
99 Sv7887 : Where do you get this impression? How do you explain the success of immigrants who come to this country? Did you know that the top 10% wage earners o
100 AirCop : Stafford Loans aren't a freebie. I would disagree, it's lack of room for students in the medical schools, for a country of our size, we are lacking i
101 Baroque : Indeed, an interesting article. Funny how Brooks makes much better reading and listening when he is on by himself and not reflexively defending indef
102 Sv7887 : The ones I got had subsidized interest payments, the money was essentially interest free. The repayment plan is quite flexible. Things are changing i
103 FruteBrute : LOL! Ain't that the truth. The Republican party has done an effective job at making most of the poorest, and most blue collar workers in rural areas
104 Astuteman : No problem with that. It's having that appellation applied to societies that ARE democratic and sustainable that pisses those people off..... Again t
105 UH60FtRucker : Why do so many Europeans loath American Capitalism?
106 Astuteman : Could be worthy of another thread, perhaps...... Though to be fair, in this thread, all I see is "Europeans" disliking the American characterisation
107 UH60FtRucker : I think there tends to be the perception by many Americans, that Europeans tend to take a stance of infallibility. The A.net community is a great sho
108 Baroque : 20 words and a comma to sum up this thread. As Basil Fawlty would have said to Sybil, "I don't think I would agree with you there dear".
109 David L : And I never disagreed with that so I'm not sure why you took it up with me, since I don't see what bearing it has on my comment that many who have li
110 Post contains links NorthStarDC4M : " target=_blank>http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...58260 That article says nothing about bankrupting the nation at all. Nor does it say anything
111 ANITIX87 : Didn't mean to make it seem like I was taking it up with you. I was just clarifying my comment in case I wasn't clear. And I completely agree with th
112 Charles79 : You bring up a very good point SK. It's ironic that a lot of people in here oppose socialism based on moral grounds, as if being concerned for the we
113 MD80fanatic : Do you think it might be possible that we are being driven, on purpose, to such a position? The same way a virus infects a cell and changes it's DNA?
114 Slider : If you haven't noticed already, I don't play favorites....I have been one of the loudest critics of Jorge Bush here and despise what he has done to t
115 SKAirbus : Well think about this... Europe is one of the most prosperous areas of the world... some areas are a lot more prosperous and wealthy than the United S
116 David L : Fair enough but: a) The references to "shades of grey" that I was addressing concerned "degrees of socialism" in Western Europe versus the USSR, not
117 PeterPuck : I quit reading that article when it couldn't even get the number of provinces and territories right, or even the population of Canada. If the simples
118 Dc863 : That's due to the Puritan influence dating back to the late 1600s here. The hatred from the left is far worse in this country than the right. Hatred
119 Charles79 : Funny cause given all the wealth, education, talent, innovation, and skills that we have in this country there's no reason why we couldn't say the ex
120 HowSwedeitis : Well of course, because as I said, many politicians say " US has the greatest workers in the world. I can't obviously list every nation. Hell, (fake)
121 Post contains links PPVRA : Just because it goes with the subject: Index of Economic Freedom 2008 (Top Ten) 1. Hong Kong 2. Singapore 3. Ireland 4. Australia 5. United States 6.
122 HowSwedeitis : Oh please. The "Heritage Foundation?" Give me a break. Like I am going to believe anything that Right wing propaganda machine puts out. -HSII
123 PPVRA : Oh jeez, and we are suppose to believe your left wing propaganda?
124 PPVRA : How about we note that despite Ireland and Australia having socialized medicine, they scored above the oh so capitalist USA? That Canada is a mere two
125 P3Orion : No need to shout. I am a Republican but the party has lost its way. The religious right has hijacked the party ( I am for gay rights, stem cell resea
126 Dc863 : Yes a bailout in an unusual once in a blue moon situation. You're a scocialist...........hmmmmm goody for you. Give yourself a red star. "Being there
127 HowSwedeitis : Do you have any examples of Democrats or liberals in power saying this? I'd be fascinated to see it. I think you are thinking about bloggers. Or some
128 David L : Not bad for a country with an allegedly state-run, managed economy where any earnings above subsistence requirements are allegedly whisked away by th
129 SKAirbus : The problem is the National Health Service is pretty dire :-p I don't think enough money is pumped into it...
130 David L : But that's not the point I was discussing. It's still tax payers' money spent on a social service and yet we're nothing like the USSR. On that subjec
131 SKAirbus : Well in Denmark our base tax rate i 38%... Which i A LOT.. but the wages are a lot higher which sort of copensates.. but we have a great national heal
132 Davehammer : Very nice system to have and I very much like the Scandinavian way of doing things in many ways. The thing is that it's difficult to compare the like
133 HowSwedeitis : Would it not be possible to utilize regional offices, or somehow otherwise divide the entire population? 80 million in Germany, or the 350+ million l
134 Baroque : We were making up (another) food parcel for you David, but then we realised we have a partial socialized medical system, strong bank regulation, a La
135 Charles79 : Uhmm my partner lived in Germany (in Essen) for 6 years and he never had a bad experience with the state health system there. He even required knee s
136 Keesje : Socialist countries around the world are laughing at the self correction of the free market religion as we speak. People have second thoughts on the R
137 Post contains links Slider : http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/...hy_obamas_socialism_matters_1.html Interesting piece about Obama and socialism. Actaully gives a good rundown o
138 Astuteman : Don't believe everything you read in the media......... Rgds
139 Sv7887 : Given the amount of European banks in trouble I assure you they aren't laughing that hard. If you think deregulation was at the core of this, then yo
140 Superfly : From your link. T. Boone Pickens has a plan a plan to break our addiction to foreign oil I fell out of my chair laughing at that one.
141 DL021 : NicoEDDF....I will venture to say that I've spent more time in Europe living than you have in the US.....and to insinuate that I am uneducated because
142 David L : Such things may not have been dismissed by those in a position to make changes but my remark was really aimed at one or two of your compatriots here
143 Baroque : No idea why. Have you actually examined the Pickens concepts? Either you don't think paying 0.96 billion a day for oil imports is not a problem or yo
144 Charles79 : LOL! I'm sorry but this site is such a joke! I mean, to go from Hitler and the USSR to Obama? I'm not a fan of Mr. Obama (at all) but this stretch of
145 Slider : In other words, you and Superfly didn't read it. None are so blind as those who refuse to see. In Obama’s case, he has a clear cut, well documented
146 Baroque : So we have an answer to the question posed in the thread title, that is about the same as the cartoon attributing a quote to Henry VIII speaking on b
147 Seb146 : It is so easy with all the jobs around... In India In China In Mexico Socializim is not American, therefore, it is to be lothed. Socialized medicine
148 SKAirbus : I am shocked and appauled at people's lack of scruples here... especially republican voters... Where has human decency disappeared to??? Into an obliv
149 Charles79 : I'll have to respectfully disagree with you, Slider, as I did read the piece, as well as several other opinions posted on that site by both contribut
150 DL021 : as happens with a few Europeans posting in this thread as well! Not that this is an Obama thread, but it's interesting you bring him up in a socialis
151 Us330 : Even though I do tend to favor small government, I'm not a raging anti-Socialist and do think that there are socialist ideas that would be of use to o
152 Slider : No, they’re not. This is the land of opportunity. The Bloated Sow of the Federal Government has made it tougher to break out admittedly, but nowher
153 ContnlEliteCMH : You won't get stoned. But when I read this, I asked myself, "Is he actually a "single issue" guy?" When a person's first objection to another's point
154 Blackbird : The reason most American people hate socialism is that it's immediately associated with communism -- which instantly conjures up images of ruthless to
155 Dreadnought : I think you have it backwards. Communism was disliked because it was socialist. For one thing, let's modify the terms we use The terms socialist, lib
156 Janmnastami : It's not a unique form of government, many western countries have a system of government based on the separation of the three powers. This principle
157 ContnlEliteCMH : This is just as insulting as the suggestion that Americans object to socialism because they're afraid of it. Indeed, given our history in the previou
158 767Lover : The U.S. spends well over 1 trillion a year on welfare programs, including medical, social security, housing and other social programs. This is throug
159 Arrow : Not such a good time to ask that question. Laissez faire approaches to capitalism in the 19th century created god-awful sweatshops in Europe and to a
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