Flexo From St. Helena, joined Mar 2007, 405 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2403 times:
Interesting, I didn't know they were operating in Syria.
It is always easy to claim that the victims were civilians though as the enemy in Iraq and Afghanistan rarley wears a uniform!
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 16939 posts, RR: 57 Reply 2, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2397 times:
The "investigation" isn't going to return these people to their families.
Bush himself should be held accountable for each and every civilian death he caused during this "war," which violated international law.
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13369 posts, RR: 64 Reply 3, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2396 times:
Great!
And this at a time when the Syrian president is trying to control his extremist hardliners in the intelligence services and military and is starting peacetalks with e.g. Israel.
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 16939 posts, RR: 57 Reply 4, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2371 times:
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 3):
And this at a time when the Syrian president is trying to control his extremist hardliners in the intelligence services and military and is starting peacetalks with e.g. Israel.
Since I'm fully biased and not really objective - well - I think the timing is very,very coincidal..
WTF do American Helicopters within Syria killing Syrian civil population ..
Bashar is trying to sort things out in his country and tackle some kind of peace-deal with Israel,get rid of hardline-security dinosauruses,open the country to a pro-western ideology- and Doubleyea finds nothing better to do than cross the border with his killer-teams..
What a great effort to help bring peace to the region !!!
Comorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4724 posts, RR: 17 Reply 7, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2291 times:
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2): Bush himself should be held accountable for each and every civilian death he caused during this "war," which violated international law.
You're obviously not a 'Real American'
I'm curious about civilian deaths in this 'war' - around 300,000 so far?
Alessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 8, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2280 times:
I thought they let go of the Al-Anbar area already?
Syria is a messed up country itself which has had troops in Lebanon for a long time so I see nothing coming out of this.
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13369 posts, RR: 64 Reply 9, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2260 times:
Actually I don't think that there was some sinister conspiracy at work. I rather assume that the helicopter pilots f*cked up their navigation and accidentally mistook an Iraqi village close to the border, from which attacks on US troops have been carried out with the Syrian village.
In a similar style a squadron of German bombers messed up their navigation in 1940 and attacked the Northstrand district of Dublin instead of their real target, Belfast, almost driving the Irish to join the Allieds (the last thing Germany wanted). It took Nazi Germany a lot of kowtowing and serious compensation payments to calm down the Irish government.
Sv7887 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1025 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2218 times:
And this at a time when the Syrian president is trying to control his extremist hardliners in the intelligence services and military and is starting peacetalks with e.g. Israel.
Leave it to the U.S. to screw things up.
Right, blame America first. I'd like to hear what our military has to say before I pass judgment on this one. It's rumored the US took a shot at the Al Queda leader in Iraq.
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 16939 posts, RR: 57 Reply 13, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2215 times:
Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 12):
Right, blame America first. I'd like to hear what our military has to say before I pass judgment on this one. It's rumored the US took a shot at the Al Queda leader in Iraq.
And hit Syria? What business does the U.S. have bombing Iraq or Syria?
Derico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4233 posts, RR: 13 Reply 14, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2209 times:
The big issue here is whether countries have the right to bomb other sovereign states in order to go after renegades, guerillas, terrorists or other targets.
We are seeing this in the Russia-Georgia situation, with the United States in the Middle East, in the Colombian drug conflict, in the Indian subcontinent, and elsewhere, where one country violates another's borders and claims it was self-defense.
I'm not casting judgment on the attacked or the agreessor here. It's probably true that in some cases there was some justification specially if the country that felt violated had a government that shielded the elements being pursued. In other cases I'm sure the attacked party had more than enough reason to be outraged.
But in the end, it's a sign that the mechanism deviced to prevent situations such as these, the United Nations, is not working anylonger. I still do not understand why my own country is a member, since it serves no purpose to us. Neither are we influential enough in it, nor do we require their services on any large scale. Save the money on dues and leave it. The big powers don't respect the organization anyhow, why should we.
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
Sv7887 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1025 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2201 times:
Right, blame America first. I'd like to hear what our military has to say before I pass judgment on this one. It's rumored the US took a shot at the Al Queda leader in Iraq.
And hit Syria? What business does the U.S. have bombing Iraq or Syria?
" Ninety percent of the foreign fighters enter through Syria, according to U.S. intelligence. Foreigners are some of the most deadly fighters in Iraq, trained in bomb-making and with small-arms expertise and more likely to be willing suicide bombers than Iraqis.
Foreign fighters toting cash have been al-Qaida in Iraq's chief source of income. They contributed more than 70 percent of operating budgets in one sector in Iraq, according to documents captured in September 2007 on the Syrian border. Most of the fighters were conveyed through professional smuggling networks, according to the report. "
The US War in Iraq as flawed as it was, was approved by the US Congress. If you want to blame someone, blame our elected officials. Playing Monday Quarterback isn't a strategy. "shoulda, coulda" buys us nothing now. We made the mess in Iraq back in 1991 and we have to fix it. You might want to remember Bush I was tossed out partly because Clinton said "he didn't finish the job" how short our memories are....
Our troops are still there under a UN mandate that is probably going to be replaced by an agreement between the US and Iraq soon.
11bravo From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1648 posts, RR: 11 Reply 16, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2200 times:
I would encourage some patience before we all arrive at a conclusion. So far the "facts" are all from the Syrian government. It may turn out to be true that US forces have killed "civilians" inside Syria, then again it might not be that simple.
Comorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4724 posts, RR: 17 Reply 17, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2167 times:
Right, blame America first. I'd like to hear what our military has to say before I pass judgment on this one. It's rumored the US took a shot at the Al Queda leader in Iraq.
And hit Syria? What business does the U.S. have bombing Iraq or Syria?
I really dislike the RU system but regrettably I'll have to add you to my list.
Comorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4724 posts, RR: 17 Reply 20, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2095 times:
Quoting HowSwedeitis (Reply 18): Look up secret Laos operations in the Vietnam war. Looks like 'Ole "Air America" has started operations again.
I knew one of the Ravens Forward Air Controllers, as they were called. There was an excellent show on them on the History Channel.
The Administration can do what it wants between now and Jan 20. It'll be for the next president to face the consequences and clean up the mess.
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 16939 posts, RR: 57 Reply 21, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2082 times:
Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 15): " Ninety percent of the foreign fighters enter through Syria, according to U.S. intelligence. Foreigners are some of the most deadly fighters in Iraq, trained in bomb-making and with small-arms expertise and more likely to be willing suicide bombers than Iraqis.
Again, what right does the U.S. have to bomb Syria OR Iraq? Now or in 2003?
It needs to stop. And thank goodness it appears that it's going to stop.
11Bravo From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1648 posts, RR: 11 Reply 22, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2069 times:
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 21): Again, what right does the U.S. have to bomb Syria OR Iraq? Now or in 2003?
It wasn't a bombing. It was a special ops raid on some sort of compound in Syria.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 21): It needs to stop. And thank goodness it appears that it's going to stop.
Obama has said he would conduct similar operations IF we had actionable intellegence.
We should have never gone into Iraq, but we need to do what it takes in cases where we have solid intel about a threat to US forces.
Ual777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1492 posts, RR: 5 Reply 23, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2057 times:
Quoting Comorin (Reply 7):
You're obviously not a 'Real American' Wink
I'm curious about civilian deaths in this 'war' - around 300,000 so far?
Its under 100,000 and see below for the real kicker.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2): The "investigation" isn't going to return these people to their families.
Bush himself should be held accountable for each and every civilian death he caused during this "war," which violated international law.
Well according to Iraqbodycount.org theres 90,000 civilian deaths; of which over 90% are caused by terrorists. Do you hold them accountable as well?
HowSwedeitis From Sweden, joined Jul 2007, 586 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2051 times:
Quoting Ual777 (Reply 23): of which over 90% are caused by terrorists.
Which happened because of the US invasion. We can go around and around.
-HSII
Heja Sverige!!
25 Flighty: I agree, here in America we have a penalty for killing people illegally. We have rules like felony murder, conspiracy to commit homicide etc. This is
26 PSA727: Do you really hear what you're saying? Then why aren't we in Sudan? Same race, same skin color, same religion. It's about American strategic interest
27 HowSwedeitis: I agree with PSA727. Colin Powell was all about the Iraq war, and he's not racist, nor an "Islam-o-phobe." It is all about strategic interests. There
28 Levent: I think that nowadays the navigation equipment is a little bit more sophisticated though...
29 HAWK21M: Such errors only increase the hate towards the occupying military & cause hate to emate from the local population. regds MEL
30 Flighty: Really. Did he quit his job and endorse Obama because he was so proud of the Iraq War? And by the way I am not trying to bring this thread off topic.
31 AGC525: If places like Syria and Pakistan are going to hide and protect terrorists, and continue to allow them to cross borders an attack US troops, then they
32 ME AVN FAN: - I looked the matter up in CNN. At present there is just the Syrian statement about that farm some 8 kilometers inside Syria where a family got kill
33 UAL777: No, it happened because they are extremist wackos. There is no going around and around. When are people going to hold these scum accountable. They ma
34 ME AVN FAN: - Those "wackos" could thrive after the invasion due to the USA closing down army and police in Iraq without replacing them by a strong enough police
35 Beaucaire: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7693053.stm not a good way to improve Syrian-American relations and change the hatred of the locals against Ame
36 ME AVN FAN: - Well, the Russian leadership enjoys the present opportunity ! - Disturbing is the way in which "official USA" reacts. Had there been a clear declar
37 Flexo: What's wrong with the US military's PR department? If you do an operation like that you got to have an answer ready. Otherwise something like this hap
38 ME AVN FAN: - They in Damascus apparently have learnt from previous failures and this time were amazingly speedy with their statements.
39 ME AVN FAN: The BBC has an eyewitness report on its WEBsite : - Sam is a BBC user who lives in Abu Kamal, the Syrian border town where the attack happened on Sund
40 ME AVN FAN: www.english.aljazeera.net gave more details : - Syrian state television said four US military helicopters had been involved in Sunday's raid on the vi
41 MD11Engineer: In Indonesia at the end of WW2, the British (who disn't have enough manpower) actually used Japanese units (up to company level), which had surrender
42 Dc863: Well Syria dragged it's feet closing down areas of the border where terrorists were going through. So we took matter into our own hands. If any of you
43 ME AVN FAN: - This border cannot be brought under control so easily by either side. That the USA apparently did a "hot pursuit" stunt of some kind is one thing,
44 StarAC17: Better known as the October surprise conspiracy and if the race turns around in the next week then this can possible be seen as it. Mainly because th
45 Sv7887: He had the option to resign. Given his experience in the first Gulf War if there was someone who should have known better it was Colin Powell. How co
46 Greggarious: Oh, I suppose that is more reasonable. So reports are saying that several of the killed were children. How is it that "actionable intelligence" fails
47 PSA727: In case you forgot, the U.S. and NATO forces invaded Afghanistan in the Fall or 2001, and were basically "killing a certain society of people of the
48 Baroque: We all need to write to the Pentagon and explain to them that horrible as it may seem the Syrians have got hold of a new weapon - the mobile phone wi
49 Beaucaire: "...Two dozen American commandos flew to Sukkariyah in four Black Hawk helicopters and disembarked, fighting a brief gun battle with Abu Ghadiyah and
50 ME AVN FAN: - Amazing is that this time, the thoroughly censored and usually extremely slow Syrian media acted amazingly swiftly and precisely. Looks as if they
51 Beaucaire: The likelyhood that to happen is close to zero,since the Syrian army is in dire condition.. Old equippment,badly trained solders,not much motivation.
52 ME AVN FAN: - Armed forces in "dire condition", equipment old, soldiers badly trained, motivation lacking ?? You mean a typically mid-eastern force ? Exactly THI
53 Beaucaire: You are fully right in the listing of equipment-but nobody can tell you precisely how many of those aircraft are in actual flying condition and what
54 AGM100: http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/syria-iraq-bloody-border-messy-politics/ Michael Yon for a little perspective from someone on the ground ... and not a Bu
55 11Bravo: It's not an issue of Arab pilots. It's a question of officer selection criteria and training. As long as Syria and other ME countries continue to app
56 Dougloid: It kinda helps if you know where they're coming from, and you can see them in the first place. Say, B.....I have a question for you. Back a few rants
57 ME AVN FAN: - That airforce even under the best circumstances would NOT have any chance against an attacking US intervention force, none at all. I suppose, and a
58 Tugger: My understanding is that the "four children" that were killed were the sons of Abu Ghadiyah (Dawoud al-Hamad) who were active participants in his org
59 11Bravo: There's one major point of that essay by Michael Yon that bears repeating. They have played a "dangerous game" and they're not the only ones. We have
60 Beaucaire: Some more information about the person in question : http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/aug/06/hacking.creditcards "..The Secret Service coord
61 QXatFAT: Are you really serious in the comments you have made? If its true, then why are the people who clame Islam to be their religion still walking around?
62 Sbworcs: Right because the US has the absolute God Given Right to violate sovereign nations and attack at will because there intelligence rightly or wrongly t
63 Flighty: Since 9/11 I would probably agree. Though, it was important to attack Al Qaeda in small and controlled precision blows. ' My reasoning? Hardly mine.
64 Baroque: You are almost certainly right. And it started when those who looked for the reasons behind the Sept 2001 attacks were howled down as being traitorou
65 QXatFAT: You said in your original post that Muslim was code word for terrorism. But my point is why are American Muslims not being nabbed up and hauled away?
66 Dougloid: " target=_blank>http://bettermydeal.com/blog/2008/09...hell/ yes. I saw that blog too and it was a bit unconvincing....I do not think they arrested t
67 Dc863: You took what I said out of context. Now if you read what I wrote Obammy has it in his mind to do whatever he wants with or without Pakistans approva
68 HowSwedeitis: Again. (*Disclaimer: I do not now, nor have I ever, supported Saddam Hussein.) However, before the United States (and it's merry band of the "Coaliti
69 DocLightning: Obama is neither the Messiah nor he is he deified in my mind. I have no problem with ANY U.S. President attacking ANY nation as long as there is good
70 MD11Engineer: You are confusing something: Al Qaeda is the militant arm of the Salafists and Wahabis, which are an extremeley fundamentalist Sunni sect. The Shi'it
71 ME AVN FAN: - This sounds like an unproven and not well based allegation. Even IF there were one or two extremists around, this does NOT give any reason to claim
72 DocLightning: I thought Al Qaeda was mostly Shi'ites. I'm wrong? Either way, Hussein wanted nothing to do with them. Saddam was too proud and didn't like fundament
73 ME AVN FAN: - elQaeda was and is exclusively Sunni. And, whenever ideologically Muslim-fundamentalist, exclusively or almost exclusively Arab. Mr al-Takriti was
74 Slider: LMAO We haven’t bombed Saudi Arabia though. Oh yeah, that’s right...the oil thing. I hate realpolitik.
75 Tugger: I tried to qualify my answer, and Yes, it was what I read and I did provide a link and quote to support what I was trying to say. That being said as
76 Fridgmus: Are you kidding me? He'll do no such thing. He's just laying down a line of shit to get elected. Yeah, I know its just my opinion. IF he's elected, I
77 Alias1024: Syria is officially outraged, but doesn't seem to be doing much about it. They closed the American school in Damascus. We bomb a country that we have
78 JJJ: So what would you do? bomb a passing US patrol in Iraqi territory?
79 Tugger: New news: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...rld/middle_east/article5062848.ece Questions raised over Syrian complicity in US raid
80 UAL777: The reasons behind it? What might those be? We buy too much oil? There were extremist wackos, Saddam just kept them under his boot or didn't let them
81 UH60FtRucker: Hmmmm.... that's funny. When I flew along the Syrian-Iraq border, it was common place for Syrian nationals - specifically in support of insurgent acti
82 MD11Engineer: Don't forget that this border, as so many in Africa and the Middle east were set up artificially by former colonial powers. Essentially up to the end
83 Beaucaire: I've posted earlier that the Syrian Intelligance services have been in touch since quite some time with peer-agencies in the "West" ,conveying informa
84 Baroque: Sorry Jan, cannot help this. If only Sykes had been using a Pitot (and not a Picot) they might have figured out how fast and which way the wind was l
85 ME AVN FAN: - This border was of minor relevance since its start in 1919. Nobody really cared. It only became a problem after 2003. As you have been active in th
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