Bravo45 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2165 posts, RR: 15 Posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 1776 times:
.... in the occupied city of Jerusalem over an ancient Muslim graveyard.
Religious leaders in Jerusalem are warning of dangerous consequences after a decision by Israel's Supreme Court to allow the destruction of part of an ancient Muslim cemetery.
Sbworcs From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2005, 725 posts, RR: 6 Reply 1, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1727 times:
Quoting Bravo45 (Thread starter): If they only wouldn't claim it to be 'Jewish'. Calling it Israeli Museum of Tolerance would be entirely appropriate though.
But I would think that there could still be problems if it is on an ancient muslim graveyard site - does the site have any significance?
Beaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 33 Reply 2, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1724 times:
Turn around the question and imagine the reaction of the Israeli comunity in Germany, if the Turks would build a museum glorifying the Turkish-Armenian "friendship" on a Jewish graveyard site..
Doona From Sweden, joined Feb 2005, 3665 posts, RR: 11 Reply 3, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1712 times:
Though I guess it's hard to avoid religious/historic sites in Jerusalem, isn't there somwhere they can put the museum that won't piss so many people off? This obviously serves as a provocation (rightly or wrongly), and just gives off an impression of being mean-spirited.
I'm just waiting for Israel to elicit some goodwill from me, for such a gesture is long overdue, and I don't see why they just can't play nice, at least in a relatively minor issue such as this. And no, it would not project weakness by showing some freaking decency and leaving a cemetery alone.
Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 2): Turn around the question and imagine the reaction of the Israeli comunity in Germany, if the Turks would build a museum glorifying the Turkish-Armenian "friendship" on a Jewish graveyard site..
In my experience, using Israel's own arguments against Israeli policies is anti-semitic.
Cheers
Mats
Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
JFK69 From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1346 posts, RR: 1 Reply 4, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1658 times:
Where was the outrage from the muslim world when the palestinians destroyed the tomb of joseph back on 2003?
"If we would have razed the gravesite of one of the founders of Islam, billions of Muslims would have taken to the streets," Sharansky said. "It's inconceivable that the world should not know about this travesty."
Bravo45 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2165 posts, RR: 15 Reply 5, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1659 times:
Quoting Sbworcs (Reply 1): But I would think that there could still be problems if it is on an ancient muslim graveyard site
Of course but it wouldn't be as big of hypocrisy as it is right now. This is one of those times that makes you think if this is a joke.
Quoting Doona (Reply 3): In my experience, using Israel's own arguments against Israeli policies is anti-semitic.
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 17875 posts, RR: 59 Reply 6, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1651 times:
Quoting JFK69 (Reply 4): Where was the outrage from the muslim world when the palestinians destroyed the tomb of joseph back on 2003?
Good question. But a better question would be: what the hell does that have to do with this? Are you going to let yourself get sucked into the "eye for an eye" mentality that has done absolutely nothing to advance peace in the region?
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
JFK69 From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1346 posts, RR: 1 Reply 7, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1644 times:
Quoting Mir (Reply 6): Good question. But a better question would be: what the hell does that have to do with this? Are you going to let yourself get sucked into the "eye for an eye" mentality that has done absolutely nothing to advance peace in the region?
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 17875 posts, RR: 59 Reply 8, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1634 times:
Quoting JFK69 (Reply 7): Propose me an answer sir....
Here's your answer: don't get sucked into the cycle.
I agree with the court that there's no legal reason why this museum couldn't be built on that site. But that doesn't make it the right thing to do. It sends a signal that the Israelis will do whatever the hell they want without taking Muslim issues into account. Unless that is the signal that you want to send, in which case you're not making a good case for peace.
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
Oa260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 23090 posts, RR: 60 Reply 10, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1618 times:
Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 2): Turn around the question and imagine the reaction of the Israeli comunity in Germany, if the Turks would build a museum glorifying the Turkish-Armenian "friendship" on a Jewish graveyard site..
Very true .
Quoting JFK69 (Reply 7): I love how cheap jewish blood is......
And so is Muslim blood according to the Israelis and their actions.
JFK69 From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1346 posts, RR: 1 Reply 11, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 1592 times:
Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 10): Maybe one day you'll actually wake up and realize the faith used to mean something...
What faith would that be sir?
Quoting Oa260 (Reply 11): And so is Muslim blood according to the Israelis and their actions.
In my eyes it is ever since Izz al-Din Shuheil al-Masri struck. You may not know who he is so let me refresh your memory. He killed my cousin while she was getting a piece of pizza in Sbarros on august 9 of 2001. Yes, the famous sbarros bombing.
So don't give me the rolling eye image, don't tell me not to get stuck in the tit-for-tat stage of the middle east. I am in it already. These things matter to me and I am not just some outsider on a aviation message board throwing my opinion in while I have zero involvement like many here.
Aaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 7286 posts, RR: 26 Reply 12, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1591 times:
Quoting JFK69 (Reply 12): These things matter to me and I am not just some outsider on a aviation message board throwing my opinion in while I have zero involvement like many here.
Lot of missiles being lobbed into Queens these days, eh?
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
JFK69 From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1346 posts, RR: 1 Reply 13, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1581 times:
Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 13): Lot of missiles being lobbed into Queens these days, eh?
Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know losing a relative doesn't count as being involved in the situation.
I lived there for 2 years as well. Does this bring my validity back oh master of airliners.net
SOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 2775 posts, RR: 16 Reply 15, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1565 times:
Quoting JFK69 (Reply 12): He killed my cousin while she was getting a piece of pizza in Sbarros on august 9 of 2001
A criminal act that i do not accept.But if you look inside Palestinians you will find that no family there were immune from loosing a son,brother,cousin,father,uncle etc...
Now do you think tit 4 tat is the answer.And if some Palestinians gangs commit criminal acts does that allow a country like Israel to do the same?Big difference between the two sides.No?
Aaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 7286 posts, RR: 26 Reply 16, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1563 times:
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 16): And if some Palestinians gangs commit criminal acts does that allow a country like Israel to do the same?Big difference between the two sides.No?
That question is no longer relevant. When there is a direct attack, there must be some kind of response. It is irresponsible for any state charged the with defense of its citizens to simply sit idly by while missiles and bombs show up unannounced in the community to wreak havoc.
What is important is for Israeli policy to address the demographic realities of having an ever-growing Palestinian population: restoring economic viability to their communities, eliminating the undemocratic regulatory barriers to their participation in various points of common society, and committing to good-faith negotiations with regard to disputed lands. Only over time will such measures restore faith and hope among the Palestinian people for a future in which their home and lands are worth living, not dying, for.
The winner-take-all mentality is unacceptable for both parties.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
TodaReisinger From Switzerland, joined Mar 2001, 2729 posts, RR: 1 Reply 17, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1452 times:
First, the museum's name is "JERUSALEM MUSEUM OF TOLERANCE" and not "Jewish Museum of Tolerance" as misleadingly posted earlier in this thread.
Secondly, the museum is not going to be built "on a Muslim cemetery"; the place had not been used as a cememtery at least since 1948 and a parking lot had been built there in the early 1960s without any objections from Muslim authorities. The ancient cemetery was even declared "abandoned" by Muslim religious authorities in 1964.
Dougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 18, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1425 times:
Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 18): First, the museum's name is "JERUSALEM MUSEUM OF TOLERANCE" and not "Jewish Museum of Tolerance" as misleadingly posted earlier in this thread.
Secondly, the museum is not going to be built "on a Muslim cemetery"; the place had not been used as a cememtery at least since 1948 and a parking lot had been built there in the early 1960s without any objections from Muslim authorities. The ancient cemetery was even declared "abandoned" by Muslim religious authorities in 1964.
Thank you. I would have posted this but I was in the penalty box for a few days.
It's more atrocity propaganda from the usual 'sources'.
Bravo45 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2165 posts, RR: 15 Reply 19, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1401 times:
Quoting JFK69 (Reply 12): Quoting Oa260 (Reply 11):
And so is Muslim blood according to the Israelis and their actions.
In my eyes it is ever since Izz al-Din Shuheil al-Masri struck. You may not know who he is so let me refresh your memory. He killed my cousin while she was getting a piece of pizza in Sbarros on august 9 of 2001. Yes, the famous sbarros bombing.
So don't give me the rolling eye image, don't tell me not to get stuck in the tit-for-tat stage of the middle east. I am in it already. These things matter to me and I am not just some outsider on a aviation message board throwing my opinion in while I have zero involvement like many here.
Of course all Palestinian blood is cheap to you because of one action of one of the, if that is justified then I am sure Izz al-Din Shuheil al-Masri will have a reason why he thought all the Jewish blood was cheap. Gotta accept both or none, I think I have always made it clear that I don't buy into that, unlike who.
Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 18): I feel the bad smell of incitement in the air...........
Quoting Dougloid (Reply 19): It's more atrocity propaganda from the usual 'sources'.
Oh please!!! The name is different than the one posted in the link I gave above, and since the cemetery is no longer used, desecrating the graves is great!
Care to explain to me what legal basis Israel has of holding on to Jerusalem, a land it occupied by force?? On what basis Israel can move ONE brick of that city or expel one native or bring in one foreigner in its place to settle there?? And no quotes from the bible.
Dougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 20, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 1389 times:
Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 20): Care to explain to me what legal basis Israel has of holding on to Jerusalem, a land it occupied by force?? On what basis Israel can move ONE brick of that city or expel one native or bring in one foreigner in its place to settle there?? And no quotes from the bible.
You started off with slagging the Jews there fella and attributing bad motives-and you did that without doing some elementary fact checking.
If you care to retract that crock of shit and get real, maybe we can have a discussion. However I do not think it likely.
I don't know how far back your memory goes but I think before 1967 at least half of Jerusalem was Jordanian. If the Jordanians had not let themselves get dragged into yet another war that they couldn't win, it'd be Jordanian yet. It was legitimately occupied by force of arms and as any student of international law could tell you, that's as legitimate a claim as there is in the region.
So there is Jerusalem. Dead people are buried under every building and yes, every parking lot too.
I do not refer to the bible although that is record enough for some folks. I'd point to the works of Flavius Josephus who wrote contemporaneously of Rome's wars against the Jews and the work of numerous archaeologists who've worked all over the region. I'd also point to the mosque everyone's always blabbing about which is built right on top of the foundation stones of the second Temple.
If you want to have a conversation, fine, let's do that.
But that doesn't mean that you get to shovel shit and ask everyone to call it ice cream.
TodaReisinger From Switzerland, joined Mar 2001, 2729 posts, RR: 1 Reply 21, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1340 times:
Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 20): Care to explain to me what legal basis Israel has of holding on to Jerusalem, a land it occupied by force?? On what basis Israel can move ONE brick of that city or expel one native or bring in one foreigner in its place to settle there?? And no quotes from the bible.
The usual Jews-have-not-the-slightest-right-to-Jerusalem BS. The Jerusalem mufti has recently repeated that Jews have no right whatsoever to even a single stone in Jerusalem, saying that the Temple never existed and was a big lie of the Jews...
"On what basis Israel can move ONE brick of that city" - hmmmm...should we feel astonished to find such a troubling similarity between the mufti's hateful words and this sentence by Bravo45...?
And to answer the above "question": on a political as well as on a legal point of view, the Tolerance Museum will be built on Israeli territory; it is in the western part of Jerusalem, not in the disputed eastern part.
Either Bravo45 does not have the most basic information about the subject he is discussing here, or he considers the whole pre-1967 Israeli territory as "occupied lands"...
I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 14046 posts, RR: 55 Reply 22, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1327 times:
Quoting Doona (Reply 3):
In my experience, using Israel's own arguments against Israeli policies is anti-semitic.
Could you clarify that?
Well, athiest though I may be, the Israeli government would classify me as a Jew. After all, I did have my Bar Mitzvah. So I do hope that we can spare any dismissals of my arguments as "anti-semitic."
I find the idea that Israel is building a museum of "Tolerance" to be disgusting and pathetic.
When Israel can treat its Arab citizens with the same tolerance it would like to see extended towards Jews, then I will donate to such a museum myself. Until that day, I consider this nothing more than a sick irony.
Doona From Sweden, joined Feb 2005, 3665 posts, RR: 11 Reply 23, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1309 times:
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 23): Well, athiest though I may be, the Israeli government would classify me as a Jew. After all, I did have my Bar Mitzvah. So I do hope that we can spare any dismissals of my arguments as "anti-semitic."
No offense meant, I was attempting a bit of satire there. I was referring to the hypothetical presented earlier.
Cheers
Mats
Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
Dougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 24, posted (3 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 1281 times:
Quoting TodaReisinger (Reply 21): The Jerusalem mufti has recently repeated that Jews have no right whatsoever to even a single stone in Jerusalem, saying that the Temple never existed and was a big lie of the Jews...
Thus continuing the bullshit from that discredited office and the people who've held it.
26 TodaReisinger: The "Israeli" definition of who is Jewish is larger than the the religious definition, for quite obvious reasons. In your case, however, it wouldn't
27 DocLightning: Well, let's see. I'm a staunch supporter of Israel's right to exist. I donate to AIPAC. I haven't visited yet, but I do plan to. And I have family th
28 JFK69: For someone that hasn't been there and seen it with your own eyes you should tread lightly. What the news shows and what is reality can be worlds apa
29 DocLightning: Because that's where the family said they were from.
30 HuskyAviation: You accurately described the name of the museum as the "Museum of Tolerance" in the subject line, just as the BBC article describes. "Jewish" is not
31 Aaron747: Just forget it man, been down that road with these people. It's an ugly one. For them, there is only one kind of support for Israel and only one kind
32 Bravo45: REALLY!!!!! You are telling me Israel would have been able to do this if it wasn't holding to the area by force? When did I say that?? Did I even use
33 Bravo45: A very honorable point of view. Why can't the merits of justice be made to decide for issues like these rather than ones religion/ethnicity?
34 Aaron747: Well see, because if one holds such views, they are simply anti-Semitic, self-hating, anti-Zionist, or some combination of the three
35 Dougloid: Have fun at Evergreen with Rachel's fellow travelers there boyee.
36 Aaron747: I just want to state that this is deserving of a reply. Let's see what Bravo has to say about it, because this point is true. Nowhere was that word s
37 TodaReisinger: That's good to know that you are a staunch supporter of Israel's right to exist. I understand that this means "a staunch supporter of Israel's right
38 TodaReisinger: Sorry, I forgot one part of my answer... There are graves almost everywhere in this region, and it is a considerable problem. With Jewish graves, it i
39 Aaron747: You say this like you assume we've never met anyone who's been through it, much less possibly have relatives there! It's not like similar organizatio
40 DocLightning: You're worse than the American flag wavers. I criticise Israel and I'm an anti-semite, inciteful, and I'm just waiting to get called a Nazi. In Ameri
41 TWFirst: ENOUGH! This freakin' decades-long conflict has caused the world way, WAY, WAYYYYY more trouble than this tiny strip of desert warrants.... historical
42 TodaReisinger: I do not have "conservative" opinions. But if you feel happy to classify me as a "conservative", you're free to do it of course... Don't play with wo
43 L-188: I wonder if it will be similar to that one on the "Lemmiwinks" episode of South Park. Couldn't find a youtube video of that segment, but maybe they wi
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