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UK "Mayday For Democracy"  
User currently offlineSeansasLCY From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2007, 856 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1611 times:

What is everyones view on the arrest of Shadow immigration minister Damian Green's for "conspiring to commit misconduct in a public office".

Anti Terrorist legislation was used to arrest an opposition politician. Opposition parties in the UK are now asking questions about whether this should have been allowed.

"It follows a series of leaks, including:

The November 2007 revelation that the home secretary knew the Security Industry Authority had granted licences to 5,000 illegal workers, but decided not to publicise it.
The February 2008 news that an illegal immigrant had been employed as a cleaner in the House of Commons.
A whips' list of potential Labour rebels in the vote on plans to increase the pre-charge terror detention limit to 42 days.
A letter from the home secretary warning that a recession could lead to a rise in crime."

"Speaking on BBC One's Question Time, shadow chancellor George Osborne said: "I think it's absolutely extraordinary that the police have taken that decision.

"It has long been the case in our democracy that MPs have received information from civil servants - I think to hide information from the public is wrong."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7753557.stm

Personally I think this is a clear reason these anti terror laws should not have been passed and just another reason id cards and 42 days detention should never see the light of day.

I think this article sums it up http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com.../matthew_parris/article5254217.ece

This should never have happened. This is one step to close to a police state for my liking.

17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 1, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 1512 times:

What's so bad about personal ID cards? Pretty much the rest of the world uses them (except perhaps the US, though a Social Security card or a driver's licence is considered an ID card apparently) and nobody is complaining about having to get one, so I don't see any reason why people in the UK would complain about the introduction of the personal ID card.

User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9524 posts, RR: 42
Reply 2, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 1509 times:

It's been such a monumental cock-up, and everyone knows it, that it really isn't a "mayday" for UK democracy. What I'd like to know is who persuaded the police to take this action.

User currently offlineIH8BY From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 1142 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 1506 times:



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 1):
What's so bad about personal ID cards? Pretty much the rest of the world uses them (except perhaps the US, though a Social Security card or a driver's licence is considered an ID card apparently) and nobody is complaining about having to get one, so I don't see any reason why people in the UK would complain about the introduction of the personal ID card.

The amount and range of information the government wanted to attach to people's ID card status (i.e. basically use them as a folder of records about the person) was quite vociferously questioned; problem is, few people trust the government enough to allow them to collect all the data in one place.
Some advanced the idea that nobody would wish to pay for something like that whose basic function is quite acceptably conveyed by a passport (remember it's very common to have one here) or driving licence, and as well as it costing the taxpayer a significant amount of money to implement, there was talk of the actual card still having to be purchased despite this.



Have you ever felt like you could float into the sky / like the laws of physics simply don't apply?
User currently offlineSeansasLCY From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2007, 856 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1474 times:



Quoting David L (Reply 2):
It's been such a monumental cock-up, and everyone knows it, that it really isn't a "mayday" for UK democracy

A principle of our parliament - the right for parliament to hold the government to account has been broken by anti-terror officers raiding the offices of an opposition politician. Thats a huge decline for democracy. That arrest of opposition politicians is what happens in Zimbabwe not London.

Conservative leader David Cameron has written a piece in the News of the World today outlining his view and the questions he wants answered.

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/news...-An-assault-on-all-our-rights.html


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8957 posts, RR: 40
Reply 5, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1471 times:



Quoting SeansasLCY (Thread starter):
Anti Terrorist legislation was used to arrest an opposition politician.

Speaks for itself, really.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8871 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1457 times:



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 1):
What's so bad about personal ID cards? Pretty much the rest of the world uses them (except perhaps the US, though a Social Security card or a driver's licence is considered an ID card apparently) and nobody is complaining

It is about time for the US to start with an ID, we do not know who is here anymore. Phoney licenses and Social Security numbers are rampant here. It is a growth industry. We just had a ring broken up in our vehicle registration office, which was distributing phoney licenses. There were illegals working on the night shift there, using copying machines to copy records. clerks on the day shift issuing the licenses. for $2500 to 3 thousand dollars per. They were also in the courthouses.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineSeansasLCY From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2007, 856 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1437 times:



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 6):
It is about time for the US to start with an ID, we do not know who is here anymore. Phoney licenses and Social Security numbers are rampant here. It is a growth industry. We just had a ring broken up in our vehicle registration office, which was distributing phoney licenses. There were illegals working on the night shift there, using copying machines to copy records. clerks on the day shift issuing the licenses. for $2500 to 3 thousand dollars per. They were also in the courthouses

You think ID cards will stop this? Whats to stop people faking their ID cards?


User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8871 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1404 times:



Quoting SeansasLCY (Reply 7):
You think ID cards will stop this? Whats to stop people faking their ID cards?

I guess we will have to trust in technology. A computer based system, should at least be somewhat reliable, if checked, how will they get around the computer system? There has got to be a better system than we have now. I hope so anyway. The illegal immigrant advocates are fighting E-Verify which I would think is because it is about 90% accurate, they dispute this of course. Just figures, do not get your water hot if you dispute this also.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9524 posts, RR: 42
Reply 9, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1357 times:



Quoting SeansasLCY (Reply 4):
Conservative leader David Cameron has written a piece in the News of the World today outlining his view and the questions he wants answered.

That kind of makes my point. Had everyone just accepted it, I'd have agreed about the "mayday" for UK democracy. However, the uproar it's caused is going to make anyone think twice about pulling a similar ridiculous stunt.

Quoting SeansasLCY (Reply 4):
That arrest of opposition politicians is what happens in Zimbabwe not London.

And he was subsequently released by some people with very red faces - faces that are going to become even more red in the coming weeks. That's not what happens in Zimbabwe.

Quoting SeansasLCY (Reply 4):
Thats a huge decline for democracy.

I don't see how. Some individuals have made arses of themselves and we all know it. They attempted to effect a decline for democracy and failed miserably.  Smile


User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9524 posts, RR: 42
Reply 10, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 1252 times:

And now it turns out that the police didn't have a search warrant:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7762005.stm

Far from being a threat to the democratic process in the UK, this is looking more and more like a major cock-up, instigated by a few arses who are going to get their knuckles severely rapped.


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13185 posts, RR: 77
Reply 11, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1234 times:

I agree with David L, what a combustible mix of cock up merchants involved;
The out of her depth Home Secretary, the bumbling Speaker of the Commons, some officers with 'career progression' all over them like a cheap tattoo.

We also have to be careful with terminology too, the scary sounding Anti Terror Police , well yes in that what was once Special Branch is now incorporated into a wider 'anti terror' organization.
And in the past, anything like this incident would have been handled by Special Branch.

I generally see it the same way as here;
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/dec/03/features-comment


User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9524 posts, RR: 42
Reply 12, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1228 times:



Quoting GDB (Reply 11):
I generally see it the same way as here;

I'd disagree only in that I do see it as a "big deal" but one that was so transparent that we should only be concerned that those responsible get named, a hard kick up the arse, told not to do it again and no TV for a week month.  Smile


User currently offlineSkyyKat From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 1211 times:



Quoting David L (Reply 10):
looking more and more like a major cock-up, instigated by a few arses who are going to get their knuckles severely rapped.

Or scape goats? The police were NOT acting on their own. They were told what to do illegally and the legally responsible party here will walk away free.


User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9524 posts, RR: 42
Reply 14, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 1204 times:



Quoting SkyyKat (Reply 13):
The police were NOT acting on their own.

Of course not and I said so much earlier...

Quoting David L (Reply 2):
What I'd like to know is who persuaded the police to take this action.



Quoting SkyyKat (Reply 13):
They were told what to do illegally and the legally responsible party here will walk away free.

I'm not so sure. They may not go to jail but I expect them to be named and shamed. However, it may turn out that the approach to the police was above board, if ill-judged, and that the only ones who didn't follow the rules were the police, who should know better.


User currently offlineSkyyKat From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 1196 times:



Quoting David L (Reply 14):
What I'd like to know is who persuaded the police to take this action.

Sorry I missed that post of yours, busy day Big grin

Quoting David L (Reply 14):
However, it may turn out that the approach to the police was above board, if ill-judged, and that the only ones who didn't follow the rules were the police, who should know better.

We'll just have to wait and see. But is still doubt the police acted on their own in such a case.

Mr. Martin seems like he knew about the whole thing and is trying to pin it on the police, at least that is the impression that I get. Regardless, the whole thing smells of rotten apples.


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 968 posts, RR: 51
Reply 16, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 1193 times:



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 8):
I guess we will have to trust in technology. A computer based system, should at least be somewhat reliable, if checked, how will they get around the computer system?

Simple corruption, no different than the example you cited of illegals buying DLs from the DMV. There's always going to be someone on the inside who is willing to make a few bucks to enter phony documentation into the system.


User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9524 posts, RR: 42
Reply 17, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1178 times:



Quoting SkyyKat (Reply 15):
But is still doubt the police acted on their own in such a case.

I'm pretty sure they didn't.


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