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NYC MTA Service Cuts?  
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19732 posts, RR: 59
Posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2219 times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/21/nyregion/21transit.html

Quote:
Deep cuts in subway, bus and commuter rail service could come as early as spring, followed by a double-digit rise in fares and tolls in June, transportation officials said on Thursday as they revealed a gloom-and-doom budget that came with a “cry for help” to elected officials to bail the authority out of its financial crisis.

And then today's editorial:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/05/opinion/05fri3.html

New York City has long had a major problem with infrastructure and this underscores it.

New York wants to be a major world city. It wants to be a center of culture. It wants to build glittering skyscrapers. But it hasn't been willing to invest the money to maintain the infrastructure to support such ambitions. While cities like London, Paris, and Tokyo have aggressively maintained and upgraded their infrastructure to ensure that the water keeps running, trains keep moving, and power keeps humming, New York has merely maintained its infrastructure. But the population is just too large to support.

If more money had been put into upgrades as early as the 1970's in preparation for the inevitable increase in population, this would not be an issue now. But the idea of the absurdly low fares that New Yorkers pay is, well...absurd.

And whenever anyone raises the idea that maybe people are going to have to pay more in order to keep the city running, everyone gets their hackles up over it.

So parts of Queens spend 2 weeks during the summer of 2007 without any power. A steam pipe explodes outside Times Square. Trains arrive infrequently and are jam-packed. Water pressure fluctuates wildly in some parts of the city. Brown-outs are simply part of the summer routine.

This is why I couldn't stand living in New York.

The Times is saying that increased taxes across the board should go to solving the budget deficit. But I see other problems.

First of all, NYC train operators can earn as much as $70,000 a year. This for a job that doesn't even require a high school diploma. And their healthcare is 100% free with no co-pays at all. Even I never get such a good deal, and I'm a doctor. Second, the Union has also demanded that under no circumstances may a train be operated by a single operator. This is for "safety." But we all know that it's for job security. It is by no means challenging to operate a train and open and close the doors. Train drivers in every other city do it. They need to switch to single person train operation. And then, the union actually had the temerity to have a strike in 2005, completely illegally. If there was ever a case for union busting, this one is it.

Second, fares have to go up. A $2.25 fare (they finally went up from $2) that allows you to travel from any point in the city to any other point in the city is simply unsustainable. An $80/month unlimited ride fare is similarly unsustainable. They need to introduce zone fees, first of all, much like there are in just about every other major city (and this would be easy to do, given the natural divisions already separating the boroughs). And they need to increase fares overall. I do worry about the fact that the people living in the outer boroughs tend to be poorer than those in lower Manhattan, but there can be concession fares for low-income riders.

Third, there needs to be a long-term program introduced to maintain and upgrade the entire system. The system is about to get its first new line in over 60 years and that new line has no express tracks (and thus will be unable to expand service as demand grows), skips over a few other lines without an interchange, and doesn't cross the city above the Park. This new Second Avenue Subway needs to be improved to include these changes NOW so that it isn't more costly to build them LATER. And furthermore, the rest of the lines need a real and true upgrade to their stations (which are disgusting), signalling systems, and passenger information systems. And then there needs to be a long-term program for keeping these systems maintained and regularly upgraded to allow such features as CBTC (Control by Telecommunication and Computer-Based Train Control). So far, such upgrades have been applied only to the L train and they were poorly executed. Oh, and they need to hire new contracting companies who aren't incompetent, who don't leave "newly renovated" stations covered in old chewing gum spots, and who can repaint a metal pillar so that it has a smooth coat.

I'll get bashed as a New York hater, I'm sure. But if there was ever proof that the city is in serious trouble, this is it. And it's time for New York to decide. Does it want to continue being a major world city? Or does it want to begin a slow, long decline in the direction that Detroit took, but for completely different reasons?

32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineHOONS90 From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 3017 posts, RR: 52
Reply 1, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2209 times:
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Looks like the W train and Z Trains will get cut.

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
Second, the Union has also demanded that under no circumstances may a train be operated by a single operator. This is for "safety." But we all know that it's for job security. It is by no means challenging to operate a train and open and close the doors. Train drivers in every other city do it. They need to switch to single person train operation.

OPTO (One-Person Train Operation) is in effect on certain lines (I believe the G and L Train) at certain times of the day, when only 4-6 car trainsets are used.

However, the IRT line trains have 10-car consists (the Flushing line has 11), and especially at curved stations or during busy times, it may be difficult for the train operator at the front to get a clear view of the entire train. Don't forget that only the R142, R142A, R143, R160A and R160B have automated announcements, and the train conductor at the middle of the trainset usually has to do the announcements. Therefore, the conductor's job doesn't only entail the control of doors. They are also there to assist other passengers in the event of an emergency.

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
And then there needs to be a long-term program for keeping these systems maintained and regularly upgraded to allow such features as CBTC (Control by Telecommunication and Computer-Based Train Control). So far, such upgrades have been applied only to the L train and they were poorly executed.

The reason the L train is the only line to get the CBTC so far is that the L train only travels on the Canarsie line, making implementation so much easier. This is the same reason that the 7 will be next in line to get CBTC, as it only runs on the Flushing line. The 7 train is already very well managed, and is among the most reliable routes in the system, and CBTC will make it even better. It's only a matter of moving the R62As on that line over to the 6, and bringing in the R142As that are CBTC enabled.

CBTC will take a long time to implement. There are a lot of services (such as the 4, 5, M) that change paths depending on the time of day, and go through different routes. After all, it is the largest system in the world with 468 stations.

===

On a different note...

http://www.mta.info/nyct/edwin.htm (RIP)

Do you think that the MTA should invest in better security for bus drivers, through the installation of driver shields (some buses in Toronto have them) or cameras?



The biggest mistake made by most human beings: Listening to only half, understanding just a quarter and telling double.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19732 posts, RR: 59
Reply 2, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2183 times:



Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 1):

Do you think that the MTA should invest in better security for bus drivers, through the installation of driver shields (some buses in Toronto have them) or cameras?

Toronto, London, Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide, and I think Madrid. YES, most definitely.

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 1):
Don't forget that only the R142, R142A, R143, R160A and R160B have automated announcements, and the train conductor at the middle of the trainset usually has to do the announcements.

Which is absurd, BTW. In London, EVERY trainset has automated announcements, even trainsets that are far older than the R62 generation. Why? Because London, like any other first world city, upgrades its trains. The curved platforms often have cameras mounted to help the T/O and C/R see the full platform via monitors placed in view of both stations. Again, if it can be done in London, it can be done in New York. I use London as an example because it is older than New York's system and has a comparable size and utilization. MTA could save tens of millions right there by eliminating these redundant jobs.

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 1):
The reason the L train is the only line to get the CBTC so far is that the L train only travels on the Canarsie line, making implementation so much easier. This is the same reason that the 7 will be next in line to get CBTC, as it only runs on the Flushing line.

That's great, but at the rate they're going, by the time they have these systems installed on all the lines, they'll be obsolete. They need to be working on the whole system, starting with the main trunk lines like Bwy, 8th ave, and Lex and then going to other lines. Having the Carnasie and Flushing lines set up is great, but by not having "Next Train" signs in all stations, they are ALREADY decades behind every other major system in the first world.

And this all costs money! And that's the point! Had they been spending this money thirty years ago, they wouldn't be in the mess they are now. But now they have redundant jobs, senior train drivers making more money than some WN F/O's (or senior resident physicians at City hospitals) and a system that is hopelessly unable to cope with its demand.

So their solution is to...DECREASE service? Yeah, this is why I moved. Because I can't live in a place where I can't move around. Oh, SF's public transit isn't exactly rainbows and bunny wabbits, but at least I can find out when the next bus or tram is coming.


User currently offlineHOONS90 From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 3017 posts, RR: 52
Reply 3, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2159 times:
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Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
Which is absurd, BTW. In London, EVERY trainset has automated announcements, even trainsets that are far older than the R62 generation. Why? Because London, like any other first world city, upgrades its trains. The curved platforms often have cameras mounted to help the T/O and C/R see the full platform via monitors placed in view of both stations. Again, if it can be done in London, it can be done in New York. I use London as an example because it is older than New York's system and has a comparable size and utilization. MTA could save tens of millions right there by eliminating these redundant jobs.

It's also my wish that NYCTA installs automated announcements in all subway cars, as some conductors don't even announce stops.

However, I still doubt that the doors can be controlled by the operator effectively, especially during the height of rush hour. 14th Street-Union Square station has an extreme curve at some parts of the platform, and it also has one of the most narrow platforms, making it more crowded during rush hour. The cameras would only give the operator a fixed view.

London's trainsets only have 6 cars for the most part, don't they?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
That's great, but at the rate they're going, by the time they have these systems installed on all the lines, they'll be obsolete. They need to be working on the whole system, starting with the main trunk lines like Bwy, 8th ave, and Lex and then going to other lines. Having the Carnasie and Flushing lines set up is great, but by not having "Next Train" signs in all stations, they are ALREADY decades behind every other major system in the first world.

  

The Broadway line (N, Q, R, W) and the Nassau Street Line (J, M, Z) would be great candidates for CBTC, as most of these lines (except the R) have large amounts of R160 sets.
The Lexington Avenue Line mostly uses R142/R142A sets, although the 4 still has some R62s. My guess is that some sets will be temporarily moved over to the 7 once CBTC is implemented on the Flushing line, until the R188 sets are delivered. I wonder how the R142A cars will make up a 11-car consist, though, as their setup is different from the R62As.
R62As have cabs (driver areas) on both ends of the car, the R142A doesn't. Some of the R142A cars don't even have cabs.

[Edited 2008-12-06 09:52:03]


The biggest mistake made by most human beings: Listening to only half, understanding just a quarter and telling double.
User currently offlineUN_B732 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 4289 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 2130 times:

I use Moscow as an example of an efficient subway system. I'm sure the Soviet Union put a *lot* of money into it, but everything is run by lines rather than routes, waits during rush hour intervals are 1 minute to 1 and a half, can extend to 10 minutes - 15 minutes way off peak, and trains can be operated by a single man.


What now?
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19732 posts, RR: 59
Reply 5, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 2112 times:



Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 3):

London's trainsets only have 6 cars for the most part, don't they?

7-8 as far as I recall. And they have some pretty sharp curves in their stations, too. As I said, the only reason you need two operators per train is to have two jobs instead of one.

What they do in London is they put people on the platforms at the curved stations who hold up a flag thingie when it's all clear so the T/O knows to close the doors. That means you need only two or three extra people per curved station, rather than one extra person per entire train.

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 3):
The Broadway line (N, Q, R, W) and the Nassau Street Line (J, M, Z) would be great candidates for CBTC, as most of these lines (except the R) have large amounts of R160 sets.

When I moved away in July, there were still only a few R160's. They have more now? Thank goodness.

(Side-rant: Why didn't they put the R160's on the E and A lines? Those are the lines that serve JFK. I would like visitors from foreign countries to our nation's so-called "greatest city" *koff koff gag* to be greeted with a modern trainset with electronic stripmaps and automated announcements so that they know where the heck they are. Instead, visitors from afar get greeted with a screeching fossil.)

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 3):
The Lexington Avenue Line mostly uses R142/R142A sets, although the 4 still has some R62s. My guess is that some sets will be temporarily moved over to the 7 once CBTC is implemented on the Flushing line, until the R188 sets are delivered.

Do you remember the delays on the R160's? It was like the 787. The R188 is currently still "planned." We're talking a minimum of five years until one is running on the lines. And knowing New York and the MTA, I would be shocked to see it before 2018.


User currently offlineHOONS90 From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 3017 posts, RR: 52
Reply 6, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2094 times:
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Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
When I moved away in July, there were still only a few R160's. They have more now? Thank goodness.

Yup. Anything other than a R160 trainset would be a rarity on the J, M or Z lines. The N and Q trains seem to have more R160s than R68s.

Alstom have delivered around 39 R160A Trainsets, and they're currently used on the J, M, Z, N, Q and W with one or two on the L. Alstom have completed the first batch of the order, and the 2nd batch is on its way.

Kawasaki have delivered around 38 R160B Trainsets, and they're currently used on the N, Q and W.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):

(Side-rant: Why didn't they put the R160's on the E and A lines? Those are the lines that serve JFK. I would like visitors from foreign countries to our nation's so-called "greatest city" *koff koff gag* to be greeted with a modern trainset with electronic stripmaps and automated announcements so that they know where the heck they are. Instead, visitors from afar get greeted with a screeching fossil.)

The E train will be getting R160As soon. The A Train will get R179s in a few years. The R160As have been tested on the A before, but I guess that the R40s on the N, Q, W and R42s on the J, M, Z had to go first, before the R44s on the A get retired.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
What they do in London is they put people on the platforms at the curved stations who hold up a flag thingie when it's all clear so the T/O knows to close the doors. That means you need only two or three extra people per curved station, rather than one extra person per entire train.

I'm not sure how well this would work, since the cabs on the NYC subway trains are located on the right hand side of the train (at least on the R32, R38, R40, R42) and the doors open on the left side at certain stations (local trains on island platforms). Would definitely be a good idea if the setup was like London, though.



The biggest mistake made by most human beings: Listening to only half, understanding just a quarter and telling double.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19732 posts, RR: 59
Reply 7, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2087 times:



Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 6):
'm not sure how well this would work, since the cabs on the NYC subway trains are located on the right hand side of the train (at least on the R32, R38, R40, R42) and the doors open on the left side at certain stations (local trains on island platforms). Would definitely be a good idea if the setup was like London, though.

It can be done with a simple arrangement of 2-3 mirrors.

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 6):
The A Train will get R179s in a few years.

 rotfl  I'll believe THAT the day AFTER I see it. Remember the R160 debacle? They were all supposed to be in service by 2006.


User currently offlineHoons90 From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 3017 posts, RR: 52
Reply 8, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2078 times:
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Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):
I'll believe THAT the day AFTER I see it. Remember the R160 debacle? They were all supposed to be in service by 2006.

Perhaps the original batches were supposed to be delivered by 2006, but I believe that the MTA ordered the subsequent batches after that.

Either way, Kawasaki seems to be faster in delivering them, compared to other manufacturers. I hope the MTA goes with Kawasaki for the R179s.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):
It can be done with a simple arrangement of 2-3 mirrors.

I actually think that cameras located in the middle of the train, hooked up to the cab would work better, because you know how crowded some stations (especially 14th Street-Union Sq) can be.

===

It's a shame that the J and N trains will become local as a result of the W and Z getting cut. I wonder if the B will be the next to go. I hope not, as I don't like taking the Q Train on the Brighton line.



The biggest mistake made by most human beings: Listening to only half, understanding just a quarter and telling double.
User currently offlineTIA From Albania, joined Mar 2006, 524 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 2055 times:

Another major problem I have with NY subway is the state of the stations. There are many great things (which are not necessarily true for other systems) about the NY subway, like air conditioned cars, express tracks, 24hr service etc, but most of the stations are so dirty and poorly maintained that I feel like I'll catch some disease just by being there.

Now might not be the best time for this, but I think that NYC should do something similar to Dubai and 'sell' the stations to private corporations, which would be required to fix them up and maintain them. Each station would have to keep certain standard features but the rest will be left to each corporation. For example, we might see a Coca Cola station all painted in red. This might be annoying to some people, but at least NYC stations wouldn't look so run down and dirty anymore.


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16872 posts, RR: 51
Reply 10, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 2047 times:

They should start with East River Tolls, that should provide about $600 Million annually. I'm worried about additional taxes though, I live in New Jersey and work in the City. I'm currently paying about $1.55 a gallon for gas in New Jersey, in New York it's about $1.00 more a gallon.


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineN229NW From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 1952 posts, RR: 32
Reply 11, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2033 times:

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 1):
However, the IRT line trains have 10-car consists (the Flushing line has 11), and especially at curved stations or during busy times, it may be difficult for the train operator at the front to get a clear view of the entire train.

As DocLightning says, cameras have been working in other systems (including ones at least as crowded) for decades. Furthermore, technology investment and retrofitting in other systems not only allowed for 1-person train operation, but cut down on delays and irregularities. Jeez, the Victoria line in London began automated train control 40 years ago. New York is 4 decades behind the times.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
Which is absurd, BTW. In London, EVERY trainset has automated announcements, even trainsets that are far older than the R62 generation. Why? Because London, like any other first world city, upgrades its trains. The curved platforms often have cameras mounted to help the T/O and C/R see the full platform via monitors placed in view of both stations. Again, if it can be done in London, it can be done in New York. I use London as an example because it is older than New York's system and has a comparable size and utilization. MTA could save tens of millions right there by eliminating these redundant jobs.

Yes, not only does NY have two person train operations, but they ALSO employ people to stand on the platform. At Roosevelt Avenue in Queens, there are three or four people waving flashlights around to tell the train crew that the doors are clear. No working cameras though...

EDIT: btw, that station isn't curved, it is just crowded...

Amazing how they waste money and then say they can't run more trains and have to raise fares.

Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 4):
Moscow as an example of an efficient subway system. I'm sure the Soviet Union put a *lot* of money into it, but everything is run by lines rather than routes, waits during rush hour intervals are 1 minute to 1 and a half,

Exactly. There are many lines in Europe with train frequencies of up to 40-45 trains an hour. The best NYC can do (and this is the exception) is about 20-24 trains/hour at peaks on the 7 line, but this is effectively half that if you are going in the peak direction, because half those trains are expresses and half are locals, and if you are going to a stop where the express doesn't stop, your 7 train can run as far apart as every 10 minutes, even at rush hour.

Meanwhile, the E, one of the most congested lines, can't manage more than 15 trains an hour at peaks, and sits in the tunnel so long on its "express" sections that it is slower than the local...

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 6):
The E train will be getting R160As soon.

I could be wrong but I think they are going to appear on the F first (F crews began R160 training earlier than E crews I believe)...then start to pop up on the E a few months later...but in any case the new trains won't help the E from the fact that it spends most of its time sitting in the tunnel or creeping along slowly waiting for F trains and V trains to merge in and out in front anyway...

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 6):
I'm not sure how well this would work, since the cabs on the NYC subway trains are located on the right hand side of the train (at least on the R32, R38, R40, R42) and the doors open on the left side at certain stations (local trains on island platforms). Would definitely be a good idea if the setup was like London, though.

These trains, however, will all be replaced over the next few years anyway. Already, the conductor on those trains has to keep moving from car to car to be on the right side of the train at different stations.

[Edited 2008-12-06 20:57:38]


It's people like you what cause unrest!
User currently offlineUN_B732 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 4289 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 1990 times:

What's the point of local service in NYC anyway? Thinking about Moscow, stations are every 1-2 miles and noone realy complains..

-A



What now?
User currently offlineComorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4896 posts, RR: 16
Reply 13, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 1981 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
New York City has long had a major problem with infrastructure and this underscores it.

 checkmark 

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
New York wants to be a major world city. It wants to be a center of culture. It wants to build glittering skyscrapers. But it hasn't been willing to invest the money to maintain the infrastructure to support such ambitions. While cities like London, Paris, and Tokyo have aggressively maintained and upgraded their infrastructure to ensure that the water keeps running, trains keep moving, and power keeps humming, New York has merely maintained its infrastructure. But the population is just too large to support.

Where have you gone, Robert Moses? But to be fair, NYC is no longer the crime-ridden city it was in the 70's. Doc, it was really horrible and scary back then.


Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
But the idea of the absurdly low fares that New Yorkers pay is, well...absurd.

And whenever anyone raises the idea that maybe people are going to have to pay more in order to keep the city running, everyone gets their hackles up over it.

Exactly. The fares are absurdly low compered to other major cities. Kudos to the MTA for providing the service that it does. Americans don't like taxes, paying for anything that smells of government, with the consequence that out national infrastructure has declined. I feel bad that my beloved NYC is becoming a sub first-world city.

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
This is why I couldn't stand living in New York.

You'll be back, nobody leaves this city... It's a deep Freudian longing you are expressing here  Wink

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
Second, fares have to go up. A $2.25 fare (they finally went up from $2) that allows you to travel from any point in the city to any other point in the city is simply unsustainable. An $80/month unlimited ride fare is similarly unsustainable. They need to introduce zone fees, first of all, much like there are in just about every other major city (and this would be easy to do, given the natural divisions already separating the boroughs). And they need to increase fares overall. I do worry about the fact that the people living in the outer boroughs tend to be poorer than those in lower Manhattan, but there can be concession fares for low-income riders.

 checkmark 
Makes good economic sense - higher fares - but I don't like the Zone system because I'll have to swipe my Metrocard when leaving the station like in London! That'll lower the quality of my life in the morning. Seriously, I think train fares and cab fares are too cheap, but bus fares should stay the same.

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
Third, there needs to be a long-term program introduced to maintain and upgrade the entire system. The system is about to get its first new line in over 60 years and that new line has no express tracks (and thus will be unable to expand service as demand grows), skips over a few other lines without an interchange, and doesn't cross the city above the Park. This new Second Avenue Subway needs to be improved to include these changes NOW so that it isn't more costly to build them LATER.

Please, no more new ideas about the Second Ave Subway or you'll set the clock back again! One good thing that is happening is that there will be connectivity to Grand Central below Park Ave to Long Island with a major new Transit Terminal.

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
Oh, and they need to hire new contracting companies who aren't incompetent, who don't leave "newly renovated" stations covered in old chewing gum spots, and who can repaint a metal pillar so that it has a smooth coat.

What? You want to sanitize NYC and make it like Times Square? We're proud of our patina and menacing Urban 'feel'. If you want clean, go to Disney!
In my early years, I would commute on the E train from Queens to WTC - beautiful new trains. They then downgraded it to its current rust-bucket Avatar. As I rose in the world I became a strap hanger on the Lex line. Fulton Street station was a nightmare in the summer, like a sauna (from the nearby steam pipes). I then realized that this was the price I had to pay to live in the greatest city in the world (IMO).

Quoting N229NW (Reply 11):
could be wrong but I think they are going to appear on the F first (F crews began R160 training earlier than E crews I believe)...then start to pop up on the E a few months later...but in any case the new trains won't help the E from the fact that it spends most of its time sitting in the tunnel or creeping along slowly waiting for F trains and V trains to merge in and out in front anyway...

Young Man, long long ago the E and F trains used to run on the same track, so we didn't quite have the same delays. There was also another train that did the local but forget which one (R?).

A word on the Second Avenue Line - it'll make a big difference for Eastsiders and Hospital Zone workers. Perfect for commuters who work Midtown, but not so for Downtown and Boro folk. Only seven more years to wait !

One last thought - we thought NYC would descend into a crime infested hell hole back in the 70's. As much as I dislike Il Duce, he transformed the city into the safest city in America, and everyone wanted to live here. I'm sure NYC's infrastructure will get upgraded to first world standards, and once again, a leader will emerge to get us there.



This is a great thread with thoughtful and informative posts - thanks!  thumbsup 


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19732 posts, RR: 59
Reply 14, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 1928 times:



Quoting TIA (Reply 9):
Another major problem I have with NY subway is the state of the stations. There are many great things (which are not necessarily true for other systems) about the NY subway, like air conditioned cars, express tracks, 24hr service etc, but most of the stations are so dirty and poorly maintained that I feel like I'll catch some disease just by being there.

Some day when I have the strength, I'll tell you the "sewage leak" story.


User currently offlineCsavel From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1363 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1851 times:

Don't forget and I am not complaining but New Yorkers pay more for upkeep of their transit system than any other urban area in the US. Some of that is because it is already built. I don't begrudge spending on other cities for that, but if NY got the money from the federal teat that DC got, or of NY got the Rubles that Moscow got well....

2nd Ave. Subway desparately needed - built
East SIde access, desparately needed built
7 extension desparately needed - built all the way to Bank St.
tunnel from Brooklyn to NJ for freight desparately needed - built
North Shore Staten Island line needed, not desparately - built

My pet project. 42d st. shuttle, bag it, take a few East Side IRT trains, run them across 42d st to the West side so they then run up town. That was the original route of the first Subway, then they walled it off, and made teh shuttle. bad ides.

To save money, frankly, I think we should re-think our 24 hour subway system. I think only Chicago is 24 hour and then only on some lines. NY is the only city where the entire systemis open 24/7. I think there is likely no reason for G Service at 2 AM, not E or F service in the middle of the night past Kew Gardens. Or to have the Staten Island Railroad or Franklin Ave. Shuttle running 24/7 (Or have teh Franklin Ave. Shuttle running at all!)

Manhattan wouldn't change much I have been on trains in Manhattan at 3:AM! and couldn't get a seat.

East River tolls on free bridges - desperately needed, perhaps you wouldn't have to raise tolls and more people would use mass transit.

50 cent tax on cab rides, including livery cabs to go ONLY to mass-transit by statute.

Combining the MTA with NJ Transit and the PATH so that there is a coordinated system so you can have a bus go from Queens to New Jersey or LIRR go to PENN and then stay on same train to Princeton (Yeah I know NJT has overhead, and LIRR has third rail, but...) or new lines that take into account the reality of NY area now!



I may be ugly. I may be an American. But don't call me an ugly American.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19732 posts, RR: 59
Reply 16, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1824 times:



Quoting Csavel (Reply 15):

To save money, frankly, I think we should re-think our 24 hour subway system. I think only Chicago is 24 hour and then only on some lines. NY is the only city where the entire systemis open 24/7. I think there is likely no reason for G Service at 2 AM, not E or F service in the middle of the night past Kew Gardens. Or to have the Staten Island Railroad or Franklin Ave. Shuttle running 24/7 (Or have teh Franklin Ave. Shuttle running at all!)

I agree. shut it down and MAINTAIN it between 1AM and 5AM. Since essentially all lines follow a surface road, simply replace the train service with frequent bus service during those hours. At that time, there's no traffic so that buses will run almost as fast as the trains and you won't worry about random 30 minute delays for track work.


User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1814 times:

Jeez, it would have been nice to open this thread and see the questions posed in a mature way rather than the New York bashing, but what can I expect?

For the record, NYC has many flaws. I no longer live there, but I am still proud of the city and consider myself a New Yorker at heart. May I ask, DocLightning, were you born in NYC or did you just go there to live for a few years at some point in your life? There is a big difference in the attitudes of those two types of people, and I suspect you belong to the latter group...

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
I'll get bashed as a New York hater, I'm sure.

Yes, probably for good reason, given the hatred that comes across in your posts above!

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
Does it want to continue being a major world city?

Oh please. This could have been said in the 1970s, and there would have been a lot more to back that statement up. But NY is in pretty good shape considering its size, etc. I'll be concerned about New York's fate when the millions of tourists stop visiting...

Quoting Csavel (Reply 15):
Manhattan wouldn't change much I have been on trains in Manhattan at 3:AM! and couldn't get a seat.

Yeah I always love that...You won't find that in any other city in the world!


User currently offlineCsavel From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1363 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1802 times:

Let me clarify that I think 24 hour service on major Manhattan lines and the trunk lines to Brooklyn Queens and the Bronx should remain. It is the lines to the nether regions in the boroughs that should be closed.


I may be ugly. I may be an American. But don't call me an ugly American.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19732 posts, RR: 59
Reply 19, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1782 times:



Quoting RJpieces (Reply 17):

Yes, probably for good reason, given the hatred that comes across in your posts above!

Is it hatred to point out the truth? That the system poorly represents its city? That there is sewage draining down the lines and that sometimes sewage drips into the station on top of passengers heads? That there are no next-train services? That the trains appear to be museum relics?

None of this is false or even biased. The city is in serious financial trouble because it won't invest in its infrastructure.


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16872 posts, RR: 51
Reply 20, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1764 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19):
That the trains appear to be museum relics?

Obviously you have not been on the Subway in many years, the fleet is quite modern.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently onlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21642 posts, RR: 55
Reply 21, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1736 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19):
Is it hatred to point out the truth? That the system poorly represents its city? That there is sewage draining down the lines and that sometimes sewage drips into the station on top of passengers heads? That there are no next-train services? That the trains appear to be museum relics?

While there are certainly problems with the NYC system, I challenge you to find another system in the country that offers the same level of coverage. You can't do it. Next-train signs are great, but they don't help you get where you're going. Often being no more than five minutes from a subway stop in Manhattan does.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineMax999 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1048 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1730 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
This is why I couldn't stand living in New York.

Yes, there are major problems with the MTA...there are major problems with infrastructure underfunding in New York. And yes, there's too much political parochialism and corruption here.

I'm not trying to diminish any of these huge issues, but from the tone of your words, you are practically in rage! Just chill out...there are a lot of good parts to the New York's public transit system that others on here have mentioned.

We could argue forever about the minutiae of why New York is good or bad, but my point is that I don't see why there's a need for this level of ranting especially when you don't even live here anymore.



All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.
User currently offlineN229NW From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 1952 posts, RR: 32
Reply 23, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1704 times:



Quoting Mir (Reply 21):
While there are certainly problems with the NYC system, I challenge you to find another system in the country that offers the same level of coverage. You can't do it. Next-train signs are great, but they don't help you get where you're going. Often being no more than five minutes from a subway stop in Manhattan does.

My problem with the New York MTA is not that it isn't extensive. It is that, precisely because it could be a truly world class transit system that might compete with many European and Asian systems, it is all the more frustrating that it is so mismanaged from the government level down. When you are standing in a crowded train shoved up into someone's armpit, while it sits for many minutes in the tunnel (again), and people are getting aggressive toward each other, you are not thinking "isn't it great that the subway comes so close to my neighborhood"--you are thinking "the whole reason I moved where I did in the first place is because of fact that the subway supposedly 'services' the area well, yet they can't manage to actually run the trains competently. And so I will be late again...AARGH!!!". The fact that the system is so much improved since the 70s also makes it the more frustrating that it can't live up to its potential.

I disagree with Doc about the age of the trains being an issue. I'd be happy if the R32s, R38s, R40s and R42s ran another 10 or more years if they ran well, i.e. if they had instead spent money earlier on proper signaling, cameras, door closing warnings and procedures, auto train control and spacing, etc. Standing in an immobile overcrowded R160 won't be any less frustrating than in an immobile older train...on the contrary, maybe even more frustrating.



It's people like you what cause unrest!
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23029 posts, RR: 20
Reply 24, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1692 times:



Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 3):
It's also my wish that NYCTA installs automated announcements in all subway cars, as some conductors don't even announce stops.

I wish they'd do away with announcements altogether, but that'll never happen...

Quoting N229NW (Reply 11):
At Roosevelt Avenue in Queens, there are three or four people waving flashlights around to tell the train crew that the doors are clear. No working cameras though...
EDIT: btw, that station isn't curved, it is just crowded...

I'm not sure that cameras can work at really crowded stations. Does Tokyo still have people standing on the platforms during rush?

Quoting Comorin (Reply 13):
he fares are absurdly low compered to other major cities.

Chicago just went up to $2.25 (the CTA is broke, though). Boston is $2. St. Louis is at $2.25 (admittedly a small system). Atlanta is $1.75. Dallas is $1.50. Most trips in Denver are $1.75.

Quoting Mir (Reply 21):
I challenge you to find another system in the country that offers the same level of coverage.

The coverage is second-to-none. Is it worth it?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
25 DocLightning : Which is a SHAME. It is a NATIONAL SHAME.
26 Post contains links STT757 : In positive MTA Subway news the first all new Subway station in NYC will open soon, the new South Ferry Station will be the first new station in the s
27 WN700Driver : Still cheaper than DC though. Base fare is 1.65, but if you want to get more than three stops it will be at least 2.50. I'll say it is a nice system,
28 DocLightning : Which is great, but it doesn't address the poor network layout and it skips an opportunity to allow some cross-connection between the 4/5 and the 1.
29 DocLightning : I was on a creeky R68 today, in fact. Which arrived crushpacked to a crowded 14st station at 2:30 PM after we'd all been waiting at least 15 minutes
30 57AZ : And partially thanks to Ford, GM and Chrysler. They helped to make the bed that we will now have to lie in. There are so many improvements in mass tr
31 Mir : Which you don't really need. If you're coming from Brooklyn, you can just use the 2/3 to get to the 1. And if you're going to the stops south of Cham
32 HOONS90 : The 5 can be designed to use the outer loop at the old South Ferry (it already uses the inner loop IIRC to turn back trains), so maybe they can still
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