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U.S. Auto Industry - Facts Vs. Fiction  
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39907 posts, RR: 75
Posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3284 times:

Here are some facts that the press conveniently overlooks.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2008812050400


Bring back the Concorde
127 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineVonRichtofen From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 4629 posts, RR: 36
Reply 1, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3257 times:

Man the cost of providing benefits to employees is staggering. No wonder the big three built so many plants in Canada.


Word
User currently offlineWunalaYann From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2839 posts, RR: 25
Reply 2, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3236 times:



Quoting Superfly (Thread starter):

A very interesting read. The Malibu looks good. How about a hatchback or a wagon?

As for salaries/UAW thingy, I have said all along that management was responsible for signing on contracts. I am interested in reading similar literature on benefits for the non-Detroit makers. Labour costs in Germany and Japan are not exactly cheap either.

I know that back in 1998 Chrysler was the world's most profitable car manufacturer on a unitary basis so there never was much doubt about their productivity.

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 1):
No wonder the big three built so many plants in Canada.

What is more of a wonder is that Canada is often perceived as a higher-tax, higher-benefit socialist heaven by many small government advocates on these boards.  scratchchin 

And reality says:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...y_tax_revenue_as_percentage_of_GDP

Corporate tax:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world#List

Welfare:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state#Data_and_statistics

Goes to show that reality is much more complex than slogans.

But I just veered off topic.  Smile


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39907 posts, RR: 75
Reply 3, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3214 times:



Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 2):
What is more of a wonder is that Canada is often perceived as a higher-tax, higher-benefit socialist heaven by many small government advocates on these boards.

 checkmark 

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 2):
Goes to show that reality is much more complex than slogans.

Amen to that and no, you didn't veer off topic at all.

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 2):
As for salaries/UAW thingy, I have said all along that management was responsible for signing on contracts.

Well the Big three could have went the Wal-Mart route and be swimming in profits while workers are indirectly forced to work off the clock.
Luckily GM, Ford & Chrysler are outstanding corporate citizens that are picking up the responsibility that our government has failed to deliver.
Let's hope that changes in the near future with the new administration.

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 1):
Man the cost of providing benefits to employees is staggering. No wonder the big three built so many plants in Canada.

A nation with national health-care and more beer drinkers.  Silly
It's time for the USA to hop on board with the rest of the developed world and provide health-care for it's people.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6639 posts, RR: 24
Reply 4, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3205 times:

But if all those facts are true, then why are the Big Three in such trouble AGAIN? If the cars are so great and the employees so productive, then they shouldn't need the bailout.

User currently offlineFalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6127 posts, RR: 29
Reply 5, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3202 times:
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That was a great article. I read it in the Free Press.

The US builds great cars. We have built some junk, but so has everyone at one time or another. The Us built only one kind of car really badly and that was small cars. The US built and builds some of the best large cars in the world. Even here in rusty Detroit you still see thousands of full size 1970s and 1980s cars on the road. You see no 1970s and 1980s small cars. Why; because they sucked. The US builders made the transition from building large cars to small ones in a very short time. Toyota amd Honda went from small cars to big ones over a long period of time. Look how long it took for the US to have any competition in the truck market. Nobody could touch a Chevy, Ford, or Dodge.

I wonder how many of the people that knock American cars had a bad expierence with a some sad Ford Escort and think everything else built by Ford is no good? I bet that number is very high. How many Amercians think French cars suck because of some sad Renault they had (or heard about) in the 1980s?

My 1984 Chevy truck is a falling apart turd, with an unknown amount of miles. It runs like a top and I would drive it anywhere. That is a good quality truck.

You can not blame the Detroit three for being the only builders of large trucks and SUVs. The world saw the Detroit three making huge amounts of cash on them and they all wanted a piece of the pie. Even Honda decided to build a truck, it isn't much of a truck, but still.

The problem right now isn't trucks, cars, unions, or anyone else. It is the credit market. Most cars are bought on credit and people in the USA are not buying cars now. Sales figures for all makers selling cars in the USA have fallen sharply. If and when a credit cruch hits these other car builders they will have problems too.

I heard on WWJ radio this morning that the Detroit three saw their market share rise 1.8% last month.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39907 posts, RR: 75
Reply 6, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3201 times:



Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 4):
But if all those facts are true, then why are the Big Three in such trouble AGAIN?

Cost of health-care.
Ford and General Motors has never received a bailout before.
Chrysler took out a loan in 1979 and it was paid back with interest in just three years.
Worth nothing, no one here n in the US is forced to buy new cars or replace their cars like in Japan. In Germany it's more expensive to own and keep an old car as well.
The competition gets round-about subsidies all the time.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineFalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6127 posts, RR: 29
Reply 7, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3191 times:
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Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 4):
But if all those facts are true, then why are the Big Three in such trouble AGAIN?

Because of the credit market. People buy cars on credit. People are not buying cars. Car builders are hurting. It just isn't the US builders. German builders are having credit problems too. Also the US builders have massive legacy costs. Keeping all those retirees paid for is killing them, but if they dumped them it would be a PR nighmare.

It isn't all the three US companies either. Ford isn't getting any money, it didn't ask for any. They went to Washington as a show of solidarity for the other too.

Chrylser should have stayed their own firm. They sell out in 1997 and look what happened. Diamler drains the cash and sells out. What a deal and Diamer come out looking great.

I don't want to bail them out either, but I don't want to be one of the largest and most powerful countries in the world and have no American car builders. All the the most influential countries in the world build their own cars it would be international embarrasment to let that industry leave this country.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39907 posts, RR: 75
Reply 8, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3186 times:

Looks like Volkswagen is getting help from their government too.

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/function/0...0.html?maca=en-en_nr-1893-xml-atom


From the article;
Financial Services AG has been a major contributor to the profits of Volkswagen, Europe's biggest carmaker. Germany's car industry has been hit hard by the global financial crisis, which has plunged the country into recession and led to a rapid decline in sales.

.....and yet so many people here in the US think that German cars are perfect.  boggled 



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33052 posts, RR: 71
Reply 9, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3180 times:

"Myth 1" isn't a myth. Nobody actually buys American products, at least when it comes to cars. The article conveniently fails to differentiate between fleet and consumer sales. Fleet sales account for less than 5% of Honda car sales and less than 10% of Toyota car sales. However, they account at least 50% of car sales for every domestic non-luxury brand except Saturn and Buick.

[Edited 2008-12-09 18:05:44]


a.
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3175 times:



Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 1):
Man the cost of providing benefits to employees is staggering.

So is the fact that probably 8 out of 10 people would rather buy a Honda, Toyota or Nissan than a Buick.

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 2):
What is more of a wonder is that Canada is often perceived as a higher-tax, higher-benefit socialist heaven by many small government advocates on these boards.

They are, they pay probably close to 8-10 percent more of their paycheck to taxes for the national healthcare. So?

Quoting Superfly (Reply 3):
Well the Big three could have went the Wal-Mart route and be swimming in profits while workers are indirectly forced to work off the clock

Big difference though people flock to Walmart to buy what they sell. American auto makers do not enjoy that reaction from their customers.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 3):
Luckily GM, Ford & Chrysler are outstanding corporate citizens that are picking up the responsibility that our government has failed to deliver.

So now Obama is going to give auto workers medical benefits for free? Man you are dreaming.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 3):
It's time for the USA to hop on board with the rest of the developed world and provide health-care for it's people.

Again send me some of what you are drinking, I need some of that!

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 4):
If the cars are so great and the employees so productive, then they shouldn't need the bailout.

Superfly likes to leave out important details like that. I mean with the exception of F150, Silverado and Corvette (which are not the vehicle the normal commuter shops for) the US auto makers are way behind. So all the Superfly Canada free health care doesn't mean crap if you can't produce a product that will sell.


User currently offlineGeekydude From China, joined Apr 2004, 401 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3166 times:



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 5):
The problem right now isn't trucks, cars, unions, or anyone else. It is the credit market.

Allow me to rephrase, the problem right now IS trucks, cars, unions, AND the credit market, et etc; it's a perfect storm caused by a multitude of factors.

Saying that the credit market is the problem is basically the argument used by the auto CEO's begging for bailout checks. It's not that they were doing super prior to the unraveling of the subprime mortgage mess and the financial crisis. If I remember correctly, their market share had been continuously being chewed off by foreign competitors. If anything, the big autos need to conduct some serious self-examination, cut the-credit-market-caused-it-all talk, and let the tax payers know that the billions will not be burnt in vain.



FLIB 152 'heavy' low approach...Caution wake turbulance!
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6639 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3158 times:



Quoting Superfly (Reply 6):
Cost of health-care.

So the American people should have to pay because the big three haven't renegotiated their contracts like every other company in America has? I think it's great that the Big Three help their retirees with healthcare, but the plans are ridiculous and they should have been renegotiated long ago. But the lazy management didn't want to be bothered, they just passed the problem down.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 6):
Worth nothing, no one here n in the US is forced to buy new cars or replace their cars like in Japan.



But that's offset by the fact that American's have much higher levels of car ownership than the Japanese. Percentagewise, far more American's have cars than Japanese (and practically every other country to). Not to mention more American households have multiple cars compared to Japan.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 6):
The competition gets round-about subsidies all the time.

So have the Big Three. Keep in mind they already have $25 billion coming to them before these loans.

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 5):
It is the credit market.

It's a good excuse, but it doesn't really fly. Anyone with a good credit score can still get credit. Most of the people who can't get credit have poor credit records and therefore shouldn't be getting credit and buying cars they can't afford.

It all goes back to the credit bubble where the automakers (and other industries) were building their business models on selling to people who couldn't really afford their product.


User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 13, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3155 times:

If those myths were exactly what the article says they are, myths, then why has General Motors been chronically in trouble for years?

IMO the collapse of the credit market is nothing but a small factor that has contributed to the Big Three being even more in trouble than they already were. Ford has been losing money for years, GM has been losing money for years, and Chrysler has been losing money for years.

And also, they get manipulated by the UAW to pay those people wages that are simply unrealistic. So basically, the problems in the US auto industry are more likely found in the incompetence of management, as well as outrageous benefits that were successfully pressed through by the United Auto Workers union, and this is something that has been ongoing for years. It's just now with the subprime crisis that this problem has been back in the national spotlight, when it was previously overlooked, when there were only sidenotes on national television about the shutdown of a GM factory.

Please tell me, when was the last time that the Big Three were fully profitable and debt free? When was the last time that the Big Three actually expanded in their core market, in the United States? And please tell me why the American tax payers have to pay for this because of management incompetence and the stranglehold of the union?

[Edited 2008-12-09 18:27:01]

User currently offlineFalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6127 posts, RR: 29
Reply 14, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3152 times:
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Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9):
However, they account at least 50% of car sales for every domestic non-luxury brand except Saturn and Buick.

Source???? There aren't that many fleets in the country to buy that many cars. Everyone I hang out with buys American cars. Take a drive to anywhere in the heartland of America and you will see all the people who buy American cars. There are millions of us.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 10):
So is the fact that probably 8 out of 10 people would rather buy a Honda, Toyota or Nissan

Where???? 8 out of 10 people don't drive Hondas, Toyotas, or Nissans. People have the choice to drive what they want.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 10):
I mean with the exception of F150, Silverado and Corvette (which are not the vehicle the normal commuter shops for

The F-150 has been a top seller for over thirty years so I think a lot of people are shopping for them. I travel all over the USA and I see F-150s and Chevy trucks all over the place. I also see lots of 20-40 year old ones too. They are great trucks that last a long time.

NIKV69, your signature mentions that McCain was country first. Maybe you should stop driving a Toyota, Honda, or Nissan and buy an American car. If America comes first, buy American and keep your country strong.

I am a right wing, gun nut, who loves America and I drive American cars. If anyone claims to love this country, but wants to see the US auto industry shut down they do not really love this country. Nobody who loves their country would want to see their country loss industrial power and economic might.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3147 times:



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 13):
If those myths were exactly what the article says they are, myths, then why has General Motors been in chronically in trouble for years?

IMO the collapse of the credit market is nothing but a small factor that has contributed to the Big Three being even more in trouble than they already were. Ford has been losing money for years, GM has been losing money for years, and Chrysler has been losing money for years.

Exactly, they were a sinking ship. The collapse of the credit market was just the final nail.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 13):
And also, they get manipulated by the UAW to pay those people wages that are simply unrealistic

Yep kind of what we saw with in the airline industry after deregulation.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 13):
Please tell me, when was the last time that the Big Three were fully profitable and debt free? When was the last time that the Big Three actually expanded in their core market, in the United States?

Long before people realized the Toyota Camry was the end all to the daily driver.


User currently offlineFalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6127 posts, RR: 29
Reply 16, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3144 times:
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Quoting LTU932 (Reply 13):
Please tell me, when was the last time that the Big Three were fully profitable and debt free?

Are there any debt free car builders in the world?



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 17, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3140 times:



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 14):
The F-150 has been a top seller for over thirty years so I think a lot of people are shopping for them. I travel all over the USA and I see F-150s and Chevy trucks all over the place.

Just because you see lots of them, doesn't mean that those are best selling cars. Maybe you've been to places were pickups were truely needed, and not just something you buy because you like it.

It all depends on the regions you go. After all, not everyone will decide to have a pickup, just to drive it around in the traffic jams during rush hour in NYC or in some other major city.


User currently offlineStasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3283 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3128 times:

The Big Three automakers have been unable to produce cars competitively, largely because they have to buy their employees’ and retiree’s healthcare through private insurance carriers. Auto workers in all other industrialized nations are covered by cost-effective national healthcare plans. Even the foreign manufacturers who produce vehicles here in the U.S. undercut Detroit by recruiting a younger, healthier workforce and have no "legacy" costs for large number of retirees. The real culprit is the never-ending skyrocketing costs of private carrier health insurance, the huge costs of today's high-tech medical care, and the greatly increased lifespans of retirees. These were things that Big Three and UAW executives could have never predicted.

Will this federal bail-out save Detroit? No, IMO. A national healthcare system would. A national health care system would allow automakers to cut thousands of dollars per car and truck off unit costs. If we Americans absolutely have to bail out the Big Three, I say let’s do it in a way that solves a real problem for many American industries: the huge financial burden of private employee and retiree health insurance.  yes 



"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlineFlight152 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 3402 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3128 times:

The independent J.D. Power Initial Quality Study scored Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, Ford, GMC, Mercury, Pontiac and Lincoln brands' overall quality as high as or higher than that of Acura, Audi, BMW, Honda, Nissan, Scion, Volkswagen and Volvo.

Wrong. Acura, BMW, Lexus, Porsche, Toyota, Honda and Infiniti all rank higher then Chevy, Hummer, Pontiac, GMC, Chrysler and Dodge which are all below industry average.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33052 posts, RR: 71
Reply 20, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3123 times:



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 14):
Source???? There aren't that many fleets in the country to buy that many cars.

Rental car companies purchase over 1,000,000 American cars a year.

I cannot provide the source I used since it's a subscriber database.

I can, however, provide this source:

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/07/06/w...leet-sales-for-first-half-of-2007/

It's a good indicator of how things still are %-wise, roughly.

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 14):
Take a drive to anywhere in the heartland of America and you will see all the people who buy American cars.

And take a drive around South Florida, Southern California, or the Northern New Jersey/New York City areas - which are three of the biggest four volume car markets in the United States - and you'll see very few American cars. Toyota is the best selling brand in all three markets, Honda is number two in all three markets.



a.
User currently offlineDtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1166 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3120 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9):
However, they account at least 50% of car sales for every domestic non-luxury brand except Saturn and Buick.

Not true. Heres the numbers from 2007 and they are declining

- 31% of total Ford vehicle sales were to fleet buyers
- 30% of total Chrysler vehicle sales were to fleet buyers
- 27% of total General Motors sales were to fleet buyers

The biggest problem is that the U.S. has become a dumping ground for auto makers from around the world. Japan is not an open market, nor is Korea. They can sell as many as they can in the U.S., but we are limited on the number we can sell in these countries. It's time for the Congress and Senate to grow some balls and level the playing field for the domestic auto makers.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 13):
Chrysler has been losing money for years.

Wrong again. Chrysler made big profits right before Daimler ditched them.Being the great people they were, they transfered the Chrysler profits to Daimler and then jumped ship. And if you don't believe me read here,

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/17/bu.../worldbusiness/17daimler.html?_r=1


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33052 posts, RR: 71
Reply 22, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3109 times:

Quoting Dtw9 (Reply 21):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9):
However, they account at least 50% of car sales for every domestic non-luxury brand except Saturn and Buick.

Not true. Heres the numbers from 2007 and they are declining

- 31% of total Ford vehicle sales were to fleet buyers
- 30% of total Chrysler vehicle sales were to fleet buyers
- 27% of total General Motors sales were to fleet buyers

I never said vehicles, though, I said cars (including mini-vans).

Domestic trucks don't sell heavily to fleets at all, typically less than 20%, even for full-size pickups. Only full-size vans skew towards fleet.

Chrysler Sebring, Chevrolet Malibu, Dodge Avenger, Chevrolet Impala, for example, are all over 60% fleet. Ford Taurus is creeping up to 60%+ as well.

Quoting Dtw9 (Reply 21):

The biggest problem is that the U.S. has become a dumping ground for auto makers from around the world. Japan is not an open market, nor is Korea. They can sell as many as they can in the U.S., but we are limited on the number we can sell in these countries. It's time for the Congress and Senate to grow some balls and level the playing field for the domestic auto makers.

The playing field is level. Japanese automakers have come to the U.S. market and built vehicles in the U.S. for U.S. tastes. American automakers have not done the same for Japan and Korea and have shown no interest in doing so. If lifting the quotas would actually solve something, than maybe the U.S. would bother. It solves nothing. Though there is a reason U.S. auto companies don't waste their time pressuring the government to do something about it.

Japan especially has such unique tastes in vehicles that American companies as is can't meet any quotas. Koreans, meanwhile, are ridiculously loyal to domestic brands.

There is nothing stopping U.S. automakers from doing some badge engineering in Japan, though past attempts by Ford by selling re-badged Mazdas in Japan, or past attempts by GM by selling rebadged Chevrolet Cavaliers and Pontiac Vibes as Toyota vehicles have failed.

[Edited 2008-12-09 19:10:03]


a.
User currently offlineDtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1166 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3082 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 22):
American automakers have not done the same for Japan and Korea and have shown no interest in doing so.

You better do your research on that comment. You will find just how way off base you are. Do you know what "Not an open market" means?.


User currently offlineWunalaYann From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2839 posts, RR: 25
Reply 24, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3082 times:



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 10):
They are, they pay probably close to 8-10 percent more of their paycheck to taxes for the national healthcare. So?

Boo hoo. And they get excellent public services for it. The point is that their higher taxes has not prevented US automakers from building cars in Canada, quite the opposite. Just like Germany and Japan, two countries with notoriously high labour costs, are still two of the largest car manufacturers in the world. I could add France and Italy to the mix, two countries with allegedly high tax rates and strong car manufacturing industries.

The whole point is that there is no correlation (as opposed to easily identifiable causality) between labour costs/taxes and manufacturing and profits in the case of the automotive industry.


25 LTBEWR : I choose to buy a car that is made in a UAW/CAW plant. My current car, a 2006 Mazda 6, is assembled in a UAW plant in Flat Rock, Michigan. It's engine
26 QFA380 : That is one of the most ridiculous statements I think I've ever read on this website. Nobody wants to see it shut down but they also don't want to se
27 MAH4546 : One way Honda does this, though, is limiting option combinations. For most Hondas the question is: 1) Pick a trim level (typically 3-4 choices). 2) P
28 Geekydude : I have serious doubts about your statement. If US produced cars are losing market shares rapidly on their own turf, how confident you are when you sa
29 Superfly : But it's a lot easy to wrap yourself in the American flag, vote Republican and wear your faux patriotism on your sleeve like a designer brand but tak
30 MAH4546 : Buick is still one of the best selling car-brands in China.
31 Geekydude : Still is, I believe so; and this is largely due to its first-move advantage. Given time, the brand will face more and more challenges from a host of
32 Falstaff : The F-150 is the best selling truck in the USA. As of November 2008 it was the best selling vehicle in the entire country. The Chevy Silverado was a
33 Falstaff : You make a good point. The UAW isn't the only signature on those contracts. Back when the cars builders were making big profits they just singed what
34 PPVRA : I don't have the time to write much more right now, but I'll be back later. Just two quick points: Productivity is usually measured in labor hours, an
35 Jush : Well I don't know about Japan. But even if you could export as many American cars to Europe as you like you wouldn't sell but a few. We just don't li
36 L410Turbolet : Does it really matter? Perception is very much an irrational thing and if the public in its majority belives that Fords or Chevrolets are crap then t
37 Superfly : They have. Apparently not. At least GM and Chrysler actually makes a product. About all of this talk about "re-negotiating contracts with employees".
38 Molykote : Regardless of whether one agrees or disagrees with how these issues were presented in your link, all of these problems are secondary to the fact that
39 Superfly : My sister has a new Chevrolet Impala as her company car. She hates American cars but loves the Impala. If the rave reviews of the Malibu are the same
40 Molykote : I didn't criticize the reliability of any domestic vehicle in my last post. My earlier point remains: You or I could point out the ways in which a gi
41 Superfly : No worries. I didn't accuse you of that. ...and there is a perfect example of the problem with this alphabet soup non-sense. It's so easy to get thes
42 Falstaff : You have to have something to appeal to the thug market. I know around here those are G-thug vehicles. One thing that gets overlooked by a lot of peo
43 PHLBOS : The biggest problem w/the last T-Bird wasn't with the vehicle itself; it was with the timing of its release with respect with what was occuring with
44 Superfly : Is there such a thing as a 'vintage Japanese car'? Is there enough to fill a show? Their early cars like sardine cars on wheels. The only older Japan
45 Post contains links Superfly : Very true! Remember this incident I had last year a Ford dealership here in San Francisco? I Made A Car Salesman Vomit On A Test Drive http://www.air
46 PHLBOS : What's a Bricklyn?
47 Superfly : Oooops, I mis-spelled it. Bricklin. Come one PHLBOS, you know what these are.
48 WunalaYann : Interestingly enough, two thirds of these names are French. Datsun Zs, Toyota Celicas? Plus those I don't even know... Funny you mention that - there
49 Post contains links Molykote : - 240Z - Early Supra Admittedly, not a long list but I am sure some could add to it. I would agree with this but some brands (BMW) have a terrible de
50 Superfly : They should have just thrown in the independent rear suspension that was on the 1989-1998 Thunderbird, Cougar, VIII.
51 Molykote : That reminds me of a joke that I saw published in an old Car and Driver 8-10 years ago. Something along the lines of: GM has apparently made an effor
52 MarSciGuy : I call protectionism which IS NOT the way to grow the economy and thrive...didn't work pre-WW1 won't work now.
53 Superfly : Works for Japan.
54 L410Turbolet : I see... how many tens of billions they'd beg for in DC have the "not" done anything??? Your explanation could be very well true, but then the "regul
55 Superfly : You answered you own question. see a)
56 WunalaYann : Unless you can prove it, your claim is baseless. And considering entire libraries have been written about cultural protectionism in Japan (as opposed
57 A332 : The Avalanche is actually quite a versatile truck... spacious SUV-like cabin with a completely waterproof and lockable box that will fit 4x8 sheets o
58 Superfly : Then I guess MarSciGuy's claim is baseless too as there are no protectionist laws protecting the US auto industry. Anyhow, it looks like the bailout
59 WunalaYann : I, for one, never said there were protectionist laws benefiting the US auto industry. Indeed. I am sure you mean something by that but I just can't f
60 Superfly : Considering you had such strong opinions about the bailout, I just hope your aren't negatively affected. That's all. We've gone over that before. We
61 MarSciGuy : I never said anythin g about their being protectionist laws in place, I was meaning that what you were ferencing in the post I quoted sounded extreme
62 Superfly : That I agree with. Now to sit back and let a very important industry die would also have very negative impacts as well.
63 LTU932 : Please provide a link to that article to back up your claim.
64 Post contains links Superfly : This kind of information is very easy to find on the Internet. http://www.freep.com/article/2008121...BUSINESS06/812100329/1002/BUSINESS http://usnew
65 StasisLAX : The only American made Buick sold in China is the Enclave CUV. All other Buick branded vehicles sold in China are "badge-engineered" versions of Hold
66 Post contains links Falstaff : Thanks Superfly! Yeah, that info is all over the place. You see that info in newspapers and on national TV news programs. Around Detroit and other ar
67 L410Turbolet : Especially if so many of those "foreign" cars are made in the US by your fellow Americans. Actually it's quite funny, because the US government just
68 Cptkrell : Gee, I don't know where to start, but I'll only make couple of comments (this thread is really bouncing all over) before I go have another beer. S'Fly
69 Superfly : I am happy to see that there are still a lot of small businesses and construction companies that still have profits to purchase new vehicles. These t
70 WunalaYann : And exactly where are American cars on this list????? I see German, Italian and French cars, but no US vehicle there.
71 L410Turbolet : I have yet to see a person who thinks of Opel (or Volvo for that matter) as being an "American" car. There's no dispute as to these brands being US-o
72 Falstaff : The Ford Focus is an American car as is The Opel/Vauxhall. Just because they are made by European divisions still makes them an American car. Ford ha
73 WunalaYann : Go tell that to people who work for Opel, Holden, or Ford outside the US and see what they have to say. The Focus is as American as I am Chinese (and
74 Superfly : Don't let those spoiled housewives in the suburbs find out their BMW X5 and Mercedes M-class was build down south. They'd hit the ceiling if they whe
75 Falstaff : Opel has been GM owned since 1929. They built their first car in 1899. They have been owned by GM for a lot longer than they were a German owned comp
76 MAH4546 : The Buick LaCrosse is sold in China. Although the design is slightly modified (improved, actually) for Chinese taste and it is locally assembled, it
77 Falstaff : Built and Sold in the USA too. Tell the folks in Dearborn, at the Ford World Headquarters that the Ford Focus isn't an American car. The Focus seems
78 MAH4546 : The Focus is American. The Ford Focus sold in America is an entirely different vehicle - and a piece of garbage based on the previous generation Focu
79 WunalaYann : Because your definition of nationality is profit-centre-based (aka Gross National Product), whereas mine is job-centre-based (aka Gross Domestic Prod
80 Falstaff : Yeah, it is the white bread of beers.
81 Post contains links and images WunalaYann : Don't know which one you are talking about. The one we see here in Oz and in Europe is: The US version is probably this sorry piece of junk: Yikes. A
82 MAH4546 : Correct. The current second generation Ford Focus are two entirely different vehicles in the US/Canada and the rest of the world. The third generatio
83 Superfly : Question; How come the superior Focus was not sold here in the US? I rode in the European spec Focus Ghia in Thailand. It was a nice little car.
84 MAH4546 : Cost. It is built on an expensive platform, and it is unlikely that Ford would be able to competitively price it in the U.S., even with U.S. producti
85 Falstaff : It probably has something to do with some hippy tree huggers badgering the government to make some sort of stupid law in regards enviroment, safety,
86 Falstaff : I bet you wish it was a Mustang II Ghia....
87 Superfly : Hell yes! Although a Mercury Monarch Ghia would be nice too.
88 NIKV69 : Yes and no, it's not the total cause but a part of it. Also a part is the UAW. Dick Morris made a great point tonight. GM could survive if they did w
89 Superfly : Hell yes. The proof is in the pudding on the list Flight152 provided. Regardless of price, I'd buy a Mercury over a Mercedes any day. No joke. Bad ex
90 NIKV69 : Yep, you probably would. There are plenty of companies but GM can't do the things to fix what is wrong since the UAW wants all employees both current
91 WunalaYann : Well then there is a problem with some unions in the US. Had you said that, I would have agreed. But to throw a big blanket over anything "union", ac
92 NIKV69 : Bush is hardly pushing for it, merely going along with it because if he disagreed with your savior Obama he would just get more flack and more nutcas
93 WunalaYann : Losing the plot a bit, aren't you now?
94 NIKV69 : Me? Your the one that said Bush was pushing for it. Unions came along at a time when a lot of businesses that were doing really good began taking adv
95 Post contains links WunalaYann : Ok. Again with the rubbish. Have a look at this: The White House, struggling to sell the package to congressional Republicans, said earlier that a ca
96 Molykote : Geez... I don't want to resort to name calling but if an RX-7 was nothing to write home about I'm not sure I can call you a car enthusiast! Criticize
97 Superfly : No doubt. Since this was a 1989 model, it sure as hell was better than the Ford Probe and Pontiac LeMans of 1989. Those rotary engines are certainly
98 WunalaYann : I hope this comment is not directed towards me as I most definitely do not belong to either category.
99 Baroque : Some of this is getting difficult to follow, but I think not as he wrote: To which I can but add, indeed. It all looked amazing to me from this dista
100 L410Turbolet : Exactly. Thanks for proving my point. Ford is an American company, no question about that. Maybe because the R&D, production, marketing, etc. of the
101 Falstaff : Those are sweet cars. I like the first genration RX-7 the best out of all the RX-7s. If I had to choose between the two I would go for the 240Z.
102 NIKV69 : Rubbish that info you provided only states that the white house is in favor of this bailout. Surely not pushing for it. Well everything is relative h
103 RFields5421 : Does anyone have any numbers on how many hundreds of millions of US taxpayer dollars are provided currently for Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Volkswagon and
104 JJJ : More like not being able to sell it cheap enough, so Ford-US got the general shape and idea and built it to the lowest possible cost. That's the case
105 PHLBOS : What's interesting is that only 2 of the above-listed vehicles enjoyed a percentage sales increase greater than 10%: The Ford Focus (+15.7%) and Chev
106 Ken777 : It's foolish to assume that only the Big 3 management is responsible for their problems. The economy is in the dumps - even Toyota reported a 24% drop
107 PPVRA : Unfortunately their productivity wasn't pointed in the right direction. Btw, GM and Chrysler make products with the help of banks. In fact, they'd be
108 Falstaff : Most car builders would be. Most cars are bought on credit and that was one of the factors that led GM to beat out Ford in the 1920s. If car builders
109 Dougloid : Of course, you DO know who's saying to the General "Well, it was all very well handing out billions of dollars to AIG and CITI on weekends when nobod
110 FlyPNS1 : So I'm guessing you also support bailing out people who make (or used to make) TV's, clothes, shoes, steel, toys, etc. Tens of millions of Americans
111 RFields5421 : Way, way cheaper for each of us to keep the big three alive. Take pensions as only one part of the puzzle. The oft cited figure of $70 per hour inclu
112 Confuscius : Is your school willing to accept a 5-cylinder (only 4 working) Acura Vigor? Please contact the owner.
113 Post contains links PPVRA : Interesting! Didn't know that. A quick wikipedia research yielded this: "Thanks to consumer financing via GMAC (founded 1919), easy monthly payments
114 Dougloid : You're partially right, but it wasn't because the companies failed that jobs were sent overseas. It was because jobs were sent overseas that the comp
115 MAH4546 : For a good part of the year, battery supplier problems restricted Prius supplies. I don't think so. The Big 3 have been going down this path well bef
116 Post contains links Dougloid : Don't forget the tax credit on hybrids. Since the Prius has already maxed out the 60,000 figure the vehicle's much less attractive than if Uncle Samm
117 MAH4546 : I'm not forgetting the tax credit. Prius sales are still hot, dealers are still getting MSRP or above. It might make the Prius "less attractive," but
118 Falstaff : I'll take that turd and cut it up and sell the scrap metal. The Toyota Dealer by my house, in Dearborn, MI. had seven last weekend. They were all sel
119 Cptkrell : Falstaff; how are things in Dearborn? Sold my house in the old Aviation Sub off of Warren Ave in '04 (guess we timed that right). Your buying suggesti
120 Post contains links WunalaYann : Right. So the White House says it is a good plan and Congress should vote for it, but the White House is not pushing for it. Your ability to push the
121 VonRichtofen : An interesting statistic: In Canada the most common vehicle driven by self made millionaires is the Ford F-150. I saw it on BNN (Business News Network
122 MAH4546 : Admittedly, though, look where you live. Detroit isn't exactly a hotbed for imports or hybrids. Personally, though, I think the Prius and all hybrids
123 Falstaff : That was a great time to sell a house. The housing bubble was at its peak here. I bought my house in 2004. I got screwed, because it is worth $25,000
124 Superfly : Not all of them. My previous post indicated that this is not a Democrat vs. Republican issue. It has certianly created some strange bed-fellows. ...a
125 MillwallSean : My perception is that Ford is an American brand while Opel is German. I know that Opel is owned by GM but I still percieve it as a german brand. Just
126 NIKV69 : Oh please, and how exactly? Doubt it, it just died and I doubt the UAW will play ball. They seem to think that automaker employees are above the rest
127 RFields5421 : Restrictions on fleet fuel mileage calculations which allow low mileage vehicles build overseas by non-US companies to be counted, but do not allow U
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