StasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 2826 posts, RR: 1 Posted (3 years 2 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
2010 Mercedes E-class sedan (rearquarter view)
2010 Mercedes E-class sedan (frontquarter view)
2010 Mercedes E-class sedan
"Expansive glass still fills an upright greenhouse, and even the car’s size will change very little. The platform underpinning the car seen here is an evolution of the previous-generation car’s, so expect dimensions to ebb and grow by mere fractions in any direction. Our sources tell us there will also be little change in the engine room, where the V-6 diesel in the E320 BlueTec and the V-8 in the E550 will receive only minor updates. E350 models will see an additional 32 horsepower arrive courtesy of the direct-injection V-6 from the 2009 SLK350. We can only hope the bawdy E63 AMG sees even more than its current 507 horsepower, but if it doesn’t, we’ll still love it.
Expect the rest of the wrapping to stay on the E-class until the Geneva auto show in March of 2009. The car will start to appear in American showrooms the following fall, with the AMG to drop sometime in 2010."
Aerobalance From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 4600 posts, RR: 53 Reply 1, posted (3 years 2 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting StasisLAX (Thread starter): Anyone else see alot of Caddy CTS influence in the new E-class styling?
No, I do not. However, I do see S-Class and Maybach influences in the crisp angular lines of the sheet metal. I prefer the current 2008 E350 design.
It looks pretty similar to the current one except for squared lights that don't look good on it and an even more prominent grille that's verging on gaudy.
And somehow it strangely reminds me of a Kia or a Hyundai I've seen before....
Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
WunalaYann From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2839 posts, RR: 38 Reply 4, posted (3 years 2 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Countdown to Superfly hijacking the thread and turning it into "German fuel-guzzlers" flamefest - 10, 9, 8,...
Either way, not a big fan. Never really liked Mercedes to start with but this one reminds me of mid-90s statutory Japanese limousines (Nissan President comes to mind).
Let us hope Audi continues on its own path to making beautiful cars.
StasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 2826 posts, RR: 1 Reply 5, posted (3 years 2 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Francoflier (Reply 3): And somehow it strangely reminds me of a Kia or a Hyundai I've seen before....
The rear of the new E-class reminds me of the new Hyundai Genesis. The swoop line across the sides that dives down low towards the nose of the car and the angular headlamps look like they came directly from the Cadillac CTS.
[Edited 2008-12-09 23:52:47]
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
At least it is a car that still has a unique styling, somehow German and Japanese cars look very much alike. What is the point in driving a Mercedes that could easily be a Lexus.
Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans - John Lennon
Ual747 From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 7901 posts, RR: 30 Reply 15, posted (3 years 2 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
It's just a mini S-Class. Nothing particularly revolutionary about it, but then again, I give Mercedes props for holding onto their designs for long periods of time. Keeps the resale value of their cars rather high, though the longest running designs that stay stagnant are those of their high end cars, like the SL500/600 that got it's first design in 1990 that lasted until then new generation which I believe is 2002 or 3, not sure.
UAL
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
Superfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 35710 posts, RR: 88 Reply 16, posted (3 years 2 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 4): Countdown to Superfly hijacking the thread and turning it into "German fuel-guzzlers" flamefest - 10, 9, 8,...
....3, 2, 1
What kind of gas-mileage does it get and what about the carbon footprint it leaves? They are withholding important mileage numbers from the public.
The polar ice-caps are melting!
Sorry WunalaYann, I have to give it the same reaction many give American cars when they roll out with new product.
Greggarious From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 361 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (3 years 2 months 3 days ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 4): Either way, not a big fan. Never really liked Mercedes to start with but this one reminds me of mid-90s statutory Japanese limousines (Nissan President comes to mind).
That's exactly what I was thinking, too.
I'm not a really big fan of the styling, which is as unremarkable as a Lexus (especially from the rear). Also, the grille looks incredibly oversized and disproportionate to the rest of the car. I personally liked the current look of the current E Class very much. I understand that Mercedes has to update its lineup to stay alive in this segment, but this was a step backwards...
Cptkrell From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2333 posts, RR: 15 Reply 22, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Uhhh...it's a "no buy".
Some mfgr's seem to be progressing and some seem to be stirring old pots of soup. 2010? Very disappointing. regards...jack
Asuflyer05 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2355 posts, RR: 3 Reply 24, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
It's pretty blah. It looks okay, nothing earth shattering. I'm looking forward to seeing the improved interior materials.
Luv2cattlecall From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1648 posts, RR: 2 Reply 25, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Columba (Reply 13): At least it is a car that still has a unique styling, somehow German and Japanese cars look very much alik
To be fair..that's mostly because Lexus has been taking major cues from the Germans...not the other way around. They even debuted the new LS in Austria (this was considered more appropriate than renting a giant middle finger hot air balloon, I presume)
Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 5): The rear of the new E-class reminds me of the new Hyundai Genesis
Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 20): And the E-class looks too much like a Genesis - for double the price.
If anyone here is in the market for a car, and hasn't looked at the newer Hyundais yet, you're dong a great disservice to yourself! The Genesis is amazing, in appearance, and more important, the tactile quality - everything feels solid, resilient, luxurious, etc (eg. the dashboard is wrapped in leather)
To contrast...the E-Class comes with fake leather...that's right, vinyl...but they call it Arctico Leather to try to fool you. Also, for those of you who value domestic jobs...Hyundai is currently expanding their Alabama plant, while Mercedes has recently began producing cars for US Import in Brazil....
Personally, the driving dynamics of BMW keep me from getting a Hyundai, but I still have to give them credit for an amazing car!
(The Azera's a nice car too, it's about Camry sized)
Quoting Thorben (Reply 21): The new E is nice, has something from the Maybach
Not that I would buy one in a million years, but I really distaste the Maybach for how similar to the S-Class it is, with some added wood trim and some toys. Rolls-Royce vehicles are a work of art, and they look very distinctive. Even though many underpinnings and electronics are from the BMW parts bin, they actually took time time to differentiate the two lines...Mercedes/Maybach, on the other hand, look like sisters:
For $20,000, I'm sure you could find a custom shop that's able to convert your S-Class's interior to a tree-museum as well..
When you have to breaststroke to your connecting flight...it's a crash!
Asuflyer05 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2355 posts, RR: 3 Reply 26, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting Luv2cattlecall (Reply 25): The Genesis is amazing, in appearance, and more important, the tactile quality - everything feels solid, resilient, luxurious, etc (eg. the dashboard is wrapped in leather)
Honestly the Genesis is a nice car but for $35k you can do a lot better. It has a leather dash shelf and wood but the Genesis I sat in had very poor quality materials. In fact the car had beige leather and the driver's seat was turning black. I know it get's sat in at car shows, but seriously. It was the only car I saw that had that problem.
Quoting Luv2cattlecall (Reply 25): To contrast...the E-Class comes with fake leather...that's right, vinyl...but they call it Arctico Leather to try to fool you.
So does BMW. And MB-Tex holds up better than regular leather over time.
Quoting Luv2cattlecall (Reply 25): Rolls-Royce vehicles are a work of art, and they look very distinctive. Even though many underpinnings and electronics are from the BMW parts bin, they actually took time time to differentiate the two lines
I love Rollers, but the thing that gets me is they use the same chime as the BMW iDrive. If you have a 2004+ BMW with navi you know what I'm taking about.
PanAm330 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2478 posts, RR: 13 Reply 27, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Ten thumbs down. It looks sooo cheap. They went way overboard with the angles and hard shapes. Shoulda been a little softer with it, IMO. The upcoming BMW 5-series looks 1000x better.
It may be a decent car, but it's still a Hyundai. Nobody looking for a proper luxury car is going to walk into a dealership where you can also buy shitty little Accents and Elantras. Why is Hyundai even trying to compete in this class? They should stick to building what they are known for--crappy little econoboxes.
Quoting Asuflyer05 (Reply 26): Honestly the Genesis is a nice car but for $35k you can do a lot better.
For that price, I would rather have a Lincoln MKS. Just wait for the new Eco-boost engines to come out next year.
The reason New Mexico is so windy is because Texas sucks and Arizona blows.
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 30051 posts, RR: 78 Reply 30, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting ABQ747 (Reply 29):
It may be a decent car, but it's still a Hyundai. Nobody looking for a proper luxury car is going to walk into a dealership where you can also buy shitty little Accents and Elantras. Why is Hyundai even trying to compete in this class? They should stick to building what they are known for--crappy little econoboxes.
Except for the fact that Hyundai is no longer known for that. They are known for being a full-line automaker now-a-days, and, so far, the Genesis is selling well (especially in light of the current economy), Hyundai's reputation for quality has absolutely sky rocketed, and the Genesis' V8 engine was named to the prestige Ward's 10 Best Engines list.
I personally will take a RWD V8 Genesis over a similarly priced Lincoln MKS any day. The MKS is FWD! That's laughable. And consumers don't seem to have that much of a preference for the MKS either. The sales of both vehicles are quite similar, and the Genesis still hasn't even fully ramped up production. In November the MKS outsold the Genesis by only about 400 units.
Hyundai is the seventh best selling nameplate in the United States after the "Big 3" from the U.S. (Ford, Chevy, Dodge) and Japan (Nissan, Honda, Toyota).
And subsidiary Kia isn't doing that bad either - 11th best selling brand in the U.S. Ten years ago the idea that Kia would outsell Pontiac or that Hyundai would outsell Chrysler was laughable. Now, it's reality.
Quoting Asuflyer05 (Reply 26): Honestly the Genesis is a nice car but for $35k you can do a lot better.
Not in objective terms of value for your money. The Genesis is an E-Class car at a C-Class price.
Quoting Luv2cattlecall (Reply 25): while Mercedes has recently began producing cars for US Import in Brazil....
Mercedes-Benz stopped importing cars to the U.S. from Brazil. Between 2001 and 2007, some Mercedes C-Class models were imported to the U.S. from Brazil. It's too bad they don't keep doing it - keeps prices low and the quality is the same. And it's not as if Mercedes doesn't have a factory in Alabama. Mercedes-Benz was actually the first car maker to build a factory in the state.
ABQ747 From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 813 posts, RR: 1 Reply 31, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 30): Except for the fact that Hyundai is no longer known for that. They are known for being a full-line automaker now-a-days, and, so far, the Genesis is selling well (especially in light of the current economy), Hyundai's reputation for quality has absolutely sky rocketed, and the Genesis' V8 engine was named to the prestige Ward's 10 Best Engines list.
They absolutely are. They still have some of the lowest priced vehicles in America. I still don't understand why Hyundai would build a vehicle like the Genesis. It serves absolutely no purpose in their lineup. It would make more sense for them to create a luxury brand like Acura or Lexus to sell this car under. Hyundai's quality has improved over the years, but many Ford models boast even better quality. Ford has also had many more engines named to Ward's 10 Best Engines list than Hyundai has.
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 30): I personally will take a RWD V8 Genesis over a similarly priced Lincoln MKS any day. The MKS is FWD! That's laughable. And consumers don't seem to have that much of a preference for the MKS either. The sales of both vehicles are quite similar, and the Genesis still hasn't even fully ramped up production. In November the MKS outsold the Genesis by only about 400 units.
The MKS is also available with AWD, and that is perfectly fine for Lincoln's mid-range sedan. Motor Trend has confirmed that Ford is working on an all new full-size V8, RWD platform to replace the Town Car (finally). The sales of most vehicles are down because of the sluggish economy, so I wouldn't read too much into those numbers.
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 30): Hyundai is the seventh best selling nameplate in the United States after the "Big 3" from the U.S. (Ford, Chevy, Dodge) and Japan (Nissan, Honda, Toyota).
That is really sad.
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 30): And subsidiary Kia isn't doing that bad either - 11th best selling brand in the U.S. Ten years ago the idea that Kia would outsell Pontiac or that Hyundai would outsell Chrysler was laughable. Now, it's reality.
That is really surprising, since KIA still ranks near the bottom of JD Power's dependability study.
The reason New Mexico is so windy is because Texas sucks and Arizona blows.
Cubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 19207 posts, RR: 18 Reply 32, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Superfly (Reply 16): I am sure the Cadillac cost less, more reliable and cheaper to maintain over the years.
I'll grant you lower cost and cheaper maintenance costs, but I'm not sure about reliability. M-B has gotten a lot better (not to mention the superior roadside assistance program).
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 30): Between 2001 and 2007, some Mercedes C-Class models were imported to the U.S. from Brazil. It's too bad they don't keep doing it - keeps prices low and the quality is the same. And it's not as if Mercedes doesn't have a factory in Alabama. Mercedes-Benz was actually the first car maker to build a factory in the state.
I drove an 08 C300 a couple of weeks ago that was assembled in South Africa. I don't know what the breakdown of assembly plants for US-market C classes is; I believe that GLKs for the US market (same chassis) are all coming from Bremen.
Quoting ABQ747 (Reply 31): It would make more sense for them to create a luxury brand like Acura or Lexus to sell this car under.
Regardless of how nice the Genesis is, if they want to be a serious luxury competitor, they cannot sell it with their cheap cars.
I drive a Chevy Malibu and my wife drives a C230. The difference between the Chevy dealership and the M-B dealership (both the purchase experience and the service experience) is like night and day. You're looking at about a $7000 difference between comparably-apportioned new Malibus and C300s; customer service makes up a big part of that $7000 difference.
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 30051 posts, RR: 78 Reply 33, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting ABQ747 (Reply 31): Hyundai's quality has improved over the years, but many Ford models boast even better quality.
Hyundai actually ranked #3 - behind Lexus and Porsche - in JD Power's survey in 2006. Personally, I think JD Power has no weight, but a lot of people like to argue that Hyundai ranks poorly in those rankings. They don't.
Quoting ABQ747 (Reply 31): It would make more sense for them to create a luxury brand like Acura or Lexus to sell this car under.
They actually seriously considered it. But again, why the expense? Besides, the Genesis is sell quite well.
Quoting ABQ747 (Reply 31): The MKS is also available with AWD
It's still a FWD platform. New Lincoln's are has pathetic and soulless as Acuras.
Quoting ABQ747 (Reply 31): Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 30):
Hyundai is the seventh best selling nameplate in the United States after the "Big 3" from the U.S. (Ford, Chevy, Dodge) and Japan (Nissan, Honda, Toyota).
That is really sad.
I know, so sad that Americans are purchasing quality-made vehicles at reasonable price. Pathetic.
Quoting ABQ747 (Reply 31): Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 30):
And subsidiary Kia isn't doing that bad either - 11th best selling brand in the U.S. Ten years ago the idea that Kia would outsell Pontiac or that Hyundai would outsell Chrysler was laughable. Now, it's reality.
That is really surprising, since KIA still ranks near the bottom of JD Power's dependability study.
JD Power is a joke. It's a for-profit organization that exists to make money for car companies to use their trophy in advertisements. Consumer Reports is what to use, and many Hyundais and Kias actually come out fine in CR.
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 32): I drove an 08 C300 a couple of weeks ago that was assembled in South Africa. I don't know what the breakdown of assembly plants for US-market C classes is
C-Class imports to the U.S. are mixed between Germany and South America. Engine and transmission are built in Germany, but the final assembly is in South Africa. Keeps prices low, and customers won't notice the difference in reliability. BMW 3-Series is also built in South Africa, although I don't believe they source U.S. models from there.
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 32):
checkmark Regardless of how nice the Genesis is, if they want to be a serious luxury competitor, they cannot sell it with their cheap cars.
Again, though, the Genesis is already competing with the luxury cars and is on its way to outselling models like the Lincoln MKS. They don't need the investment. Hyundai slowly moved up-market with models like the Veracruz, Entourage, Azera/XG, and it's been working. The Genesis is the next step and, well, so far so good.
Cubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 19207 posts, RR: 18 Reply 34, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 33): They don't need the investment. Hyundai slowly moved up-market with models like the Veracruz, Entourage, Azera/XG, and it's been working. The Genesis is the next step and, well, so far so good.
On one hand, I subscribe to the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" school of thought.
On the other hand, though, I have to believe that if they want to keep creeping up-market-- a strategy that seems effective for now, anyway-- they're going to have to dive in and create a luxury division sooner or later.
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 30051 posts, RR: 78 Reply 35, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 34): On the other hand, though, I have to believe that if they want to keep creeping up-market-- a strategy that seems effective for now, anyway-- they're going to have to dive in and create a luxury division sooner or later.
It is something they continue to look at, but I guess it depends how much they want to expand their brand into luxury markets. If it's just going to be the Genesis, its pointless to set up its own brand.
ABQ747 From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 813 posts, RR: 1 Reply 36, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 33): Hyundai actually ranked #3 - behind Lexus and Porsche - in JD Power's survey in 2006. Personally, I think JD Power has no weight, but a lot of people like to argue that Hyundai ranks poorly in those rankings. They don't.
But in JD Power's 2008 study, Hyundai was right on par with Ford, but still behind Lincoln and Mercury.
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 33): They actually seriously considered it. But again, why the expense? Besides, the Genesis is sell quite well.
Why even go through the expense of building the Genesis in the first place? This car has absolutely no place in Hyundai's lineup. Why sell a $35,000 Genesis along side a $9000 Accent?
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 33): It's still a FWD platform. New Lincoln's are has pathetic and soulless as Acuras.
Hardly. The MKZ and MKS have a lot more style and personality than the boring driving appliances that Acura and Lexus put out.
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 33): I know, so sad that Americans are purchasing quality-made vehicles at reasonable price. Pathetic.
What's really sad is that import snobs are ignoring the reasonably-priced, high quality vehicles that Detriot is putting out. Sad.
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 33): JD Power is a joke. It's a for-profit organization that exists to make money for car companies to use their trophy in advertisements. Consumer Reports is what to use, and many Hyundais and Kias actually come out fine in CR.
What's even more of a joke is that CR used to automatically recommend any new Toyota product that would come out. Now, with Toyota's slipping quality, CR no longer automatically recommends any new Toyota product. And we all know that Hyundai's and KIA's quality levels are still behind Toyota's.......
The reason New Mexico is so windy is because Texas sucks and Arizona blows.
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 30051 posts, RR: 78 Reply 37, posted (3 years 2 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting ABQ747 (Reply 36): Why even go through the expense of building the Genesis in the first place? This car has absolutely no place in Hyundai's lineup. Why sell a $35,000 Genesis along side a $9000 Accent?
Why not? Here's a fact: It's selling, and it's hitting its sales targets. The MKS isn't. It's no different than Toyota selling a $65,000 Land Cruiser alongside a $9,000 Yaris; a $10,000 Aveo next to a $35,000 Camaro; a $12,000 Focus next to a $45,000 Expedition.
Is that honestly your only argument as to why Hyundai should not build the Genesis? Maybe if the Genesis was having difficultly finding customers, your argument would work. Though it isn't having difficulty finding customers. The MKS is the one that is failing to meet sales expectations.
Quoting ABQ747 (Reply 36): But in JD Power's 2008 study, Hyundai was right on par with Ford, but still behind Lincoln and Mercury.
J.D. Power is a joke. If you want to rely on them, be my guest.
Quoting ABQ747 (Reply 36): Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 33):
It's still a FWD platform. New Lincoln's are has pathetic and soulless as Acuras.
Hardly. The MKZ and MKS have a lot more style and personality than the boring driving appliances that Acura and Lexus put out.
We'll agree to disagree.
Lincoln, Acura, Lexus - they're all the same boring thing to me - toasters. At least Lexus uses RWD on most of their products; Lincoln can't even have the decency to that anymore, absolutely pathetic. Instead, Lincoln rebadges an $18,000 Ford Fusion and gives it some chrome, while the MKS is nothing more than a fancied up Taurus. Wow, what personality! It's true that the American companies always could learn something for the Japanese. Too bad the idea Ford copied was "rebadge your family sedans and sell them as luxury cars." Badge engineering for luxury cars is a stupid idea. It's is what has kept Acura so low on the totem pole among the luxury brands ever since the brand launched. It is sad that Lincoln is adopting Acura's strategy.
StasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 2826 posts, RR: 1 Reply 38, posted (3 years 2 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 37): Badge engineering for luxury cars is a stupid idea. It's is what has kept Acura so low on the totem pole among the luxury brands ever since the brand launched. It is sad that Lincoln is adopting Acura's strategy.
This is what a friggin' Lincoln sedan should look like, IMO. And the idiots at Ford COULD have built it if they had the guts. Instead, they let Chrysler steal the design language and ChryCo produced the Chrysler 300.
Lincoln Continental (2002 concept)
[Edited 2008-12-11 16:41:06]
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
WunalaYann From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2839 posts, RR: 38 Reply 39, posted (3 years 2 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting ABQ747 (Reply 36): What's even more of a joke is that CR used to automatically recommend any new Toyota product that would come out. Now, with Toyota's slipping quality, CR no longer automatically recommends any new Toyota product. And we all know that Hyundai's and KIA's quality levels are still behind Toyota's.......
You have just demolished your own point. CR is less biased than JD Power because it actually calls out manufacturer when their quality levels slip.
As for the whole "we all know that Hyundai..." bit, considering I am not a mechanic, I would definitely not say that I know about quality differences between Toyota and Hyundai.
Quoting ABQ747 (Reply 36): What's really sad is that import snobs are ignoring the reasonably-priced, high quality vehicles that Detriot is putting out. Sad.
Calling business prospects "snobs" is exactly the mentality and attitude that failing companies have used repeatedly to drive potential customers away. After reading the yahoo report on that moron of a Ford dealer somewhere in the South East who called buyers of non-Detroit cars "anti-American", I see that this principle is still very prevalent.
You can make the best cars in the world, if you have arrogant, ignorant, xenophobic arseholes for salespeople, you are heading for Chap. 7.
Superfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 35710 posts, RR: 88 Reply 40, posted (3 years 2 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 38): This is what a friggin' Lincoln sedan should look like,
My heart skips a beat every time I see that 2004 Lincoln Continental!
Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 38): Ford COULD have built it if they had the guts
No Ford COULD have built it if it weren't for these unnecessary CAFE madates from the government. Since Ford makes the best trucks and sedans for commercial use a large portion of there product line are going to be in the lower gas mileage segment. They already have the negative image in the public's eye as being a gas-guzzling company. If they introduced that Continental with the V10 engine, the eco-freaks, media and late night talk show host would go ballistic!
Only Germany gets a free pass with making gas-guzzling luxury sedans.
However, that would have been great if that Continental went in to production. It would have been upmarket from the current Chrysler 300C.
The Continental was supposed to be priced in the $75,000 range.
That is the market Lincoln and Cadillac needs to get back in to.
Chrysler abandoned that market when they dumped the Imperial brand back in 1975.
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 32): I'll grant you lower cost and cheaper maintenance costs, but I'm not sure about reliability. M-B has gotten a lot better (not to mention the superior roadside assistance program).
Sure about that?
I am sure this E-class is more reliable than a used Cadillac Cimarron or a 4/6/8 from 1981 but the CTS is bulletproof.
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 30051 posts, RR: 78 Reply 41, posted (3 years 2 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Superfly (Reply 40): Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 32):
I'll grant you lower cost and cheaper maintenance costs, but I'm not sure about reliability. M-B has gotten a lot better (not to mention the superior roadside assistance program).
Sure about that?
Yes, he's sure.
J.D. Power is of no value. It's a marketing tool. Public perception, however, doesn't lie.
Look at Consumer Reports for real stats on reliability. The ratings for many Big 3 cars are laughable.
ABQ747 From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 813 posts, RR: 1 Reply 42, posted (3 years 2 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 37): Why not? Here's a fact: It's selling, and it's hitting its sales targets. The MKS isn't. It's no different than Toyota selling a $65,000 Land Cruiser alongside a $9,000 Yaris; a $10,000 Aveo next to a $35,000 Camaro; a $12,000 Focus next to a $45,000 Expedition.
Is that honestly your only argument as to why Hyundai should not build the Genesis? Maybe if the Genesis was having difficultly finding customers, your argument would work. Though it isn't having difficulty finding customers. The MKS is the one that is failing to meet sales expectations.
My main point is: why is this car being sold as a Hyundai? If Hyundai is really interested in selling a car of this class, then they should create a separate luxury division. They should do what Toyota did with Lexus when they first started. Right now, the Genesis is an oddball in the Hyundai lineup. As for Toyota, Chevy, and Ford producing the vehicles you mentioned, those companies have a long history and heritage of producing many different kinds of vehicles. They are also not marketed to be BMW competitors like Hyundai claims the Genesis to be.
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 37): J.D. Power is a joke. If you want to rely on them, be my guest.
You must know better than they do.
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 37): Lincoln, Acura, Lexus - they're all the same boring thing to me - toasters. At least Lexus uses RWD on most of their products; Lincoln can't even have the decency to that anymore, absolutely pathetic. Instead, Lincoln rebadges an $18,000 Ford Fusion and gives it some chrome, while the MKS is nothing more than a fancied up Taurus. Wow, what personality! It's true that the American companies always could learn something for the Japanese. Too bad the idea Ford copied was "rebadge your family sedans and sell them as luxury cars." Badge engineering for luxury cars is a stupid idea. It's is what has kept Acura so low on the totem pole among the luxury brands ever since the brand launched. It is sad that Lincoln is adopting Acura's strategy.
So now FWD automatically equals boring? Audi also produces many FWD vehicles. Do you consider them to be "toasters" too? Lincoln still has RWD models, with more coming. The MKZ is a lot more than just a Fusion with chrome. It has a different engine, transmission, and unique styling inside and out. The MKS is hardly a fancied up Taurus. It has a reworked suspension, different engine, unique styling that uses cues from previous Lincoln models, and many technology features that are not available on a Taurus. That's a lot more than you can say for a Lexus ES.
Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 39): Calling business prospects "snobs" is exactly the mentality and attitude that failing companies have used repeatedly to drive potential customers away. After reading the yahoo report on that moron of a Ford dealer somewhere in the South East who called buyers of non-Detroit cars "anti-American", I see that this principle is still very prevalent.
You can make the best cars in the world, if you have arrogant, ignorant, xenophobic arseholes for salespeople, you are heading for Chap. 7.
If you ever read the comments import owners leave about Detroit vehicles on sites like Edmunds, Autoblog, or Jalopnik, then you'll see what I mean when I say "import snobs."
The reason New Mexico is so windy is because Texas sucks and Arizona blows.
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 30051 posts, RR: 78 Reply 43, posted (3 years 2 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting ABQ747 (Reply 42): My main point is: why is this car being sold as a Hyundai? If Hyundai is really interested in selling a car of this class, then they should create a separate luxury division. They should do what Toyota did with Lexus when they first started. Right now, the Genesis is an oddball in the Hyundai lineup.
I know what your point is. If the Genesis was selling poorly, I would 100% agree with you. However, the Genesis is not selling poorly. Therefore, it is clear that there was no need to invest in an expensive separate dealer network and marketing campaign in order to sell the Genesis in the United States. It might be an "oddball," but oddballs are great as a marketing tool in providing a halo effect - like the Toyota Land Cruiser, Chevrolet Corvette and Dodge Viper.
Quoting ABQ747 (Reply 42): Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 37):
J.D. Power is a joke. If you want to rely on them, be my guest.
You must know better than they do.
Here's what I do know: J.D. Power is a for profit subsidiary of McGraw-Hill (the text book company) that exists for the sole purpose of selling their service-mark so that companies can use it in advertisements. They run poorly conducted surveys that are just as scientific as one on AOL's homepage, with no controls for demographics and no weight for heavier factors (i.e. "the cupholder sucks" is weighed the same as "the engine sucks."). If you want to measure quality by a for profit advertising company, be my guest.
I'll stick to a not for profit organiziation like Consumer Reports that prohibits advertising, prohibits the use of their service-mark, and doesn't accept free samples from corporations for testing.
Quoting ABQ747 (Reply 42):
So now FWD automatically equals boring?
In my mind, yes. FWD doesn't belong on luxury cars.
Quoting ABQ747 (Reply 42): Audi also produces many FWD vehicles. Do you consider them to be "toasters" too?
Audi makes pretty cars, so at least they don't like toasters, but I find them to be very boring in the drive department. FWD ruins a luxury car. No surprise Audi ranks last in sales among the German luxury makes, though Audi cars still outsell Lincoln cars (5217 versus 5877 in November, and that's combing fleet and consumer sales. Audi is only about 4% fleet and Lincoln is nearly 25% fleet).
Quoting ABQ747 (Reply 42): Lincoln still has RWD models,
They have one RWD sedan, the Lincoln Town Car, based on a platform unchanged since 1978.
None coming right now. Development on future Lincoln RWD projects was stalled last July.
Quoting ABQ747 (Reply 42): The MKS is hardly a fancied up Taurus. It has a reworked suspension, different engine, unique styling that uses cues from previous Lincoln models, and many technology features that are not available on a Taurus. That's a lot more than you can say for a Lexus ES.
It's boring, but you obviously think its exciting, so we'll agree to disagree.
In my opinion, he MKS is a joke of a car, and so is the Lexus ES (which, by the way, is to the Camry what the MKS is to the Taurus. That's not "more than you can say" for than the ES. It's the same exact situation, with the ES having unique sheet metal, a reworked suspension and engine, unique styling cues, and many technology features not available on the Camry).
Cubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 19207 posts, RR: 18 Reply 44, posted (3 years 2 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 37): It's no different than Toyota selling a $65,000 Land Cruiser alongside a $9,000 Yaris; a $10,000 Aveo next to a $35,000 Camaro; a $12,000 Focus next to a $45,000 Expedition.
To be fair, though, Toyota and Ford each have two or three divisions for sales purposes (Lincoln/Mercury/Ford and Lexus/Toyota/Scion).
Fbgdavidson From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2004, 3636 posts, RR: 36 Reply 45, posted (3 years 2 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting ABQ747 (Reply 42): My main point is: why is this car being sold as a Hyundai? If Hyundai is really interested in selling a car of this class, then they should create a separate luxury division.
Quite!
Hyundais to me and many others aren't a luxury product. They can make them as reliable and a luxurious as they like but they have one problem. That weird 'H' badge on the front. Until they junk that then their resale prices are going to be in the toilet until kingdom come.
When I see Hyundai adverts they often advertise about how much cheaper their cars are than the competitors, that's not what a luxury car should be about. To make things worse there was that ad campaign recently where Larry Winget appeared and said 'Use the money you save to pay down your credit card debt'. I guess that is one way to alienate your potential customers...
"My first job was selling doors, door to door, that's a tough job innit" - Bill Bailey
Flighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 6470 posts, RR: 3 Reply 47, posted (3 years 2 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 38): And the idiots at Ford COULD have built it if they had the guts. Instead, they let Chrysler steal the design language and ChryCo produced the Chrysler 300.
Agreed 1,000%++++
Said it at the time, was shocked they never built it. Ford has a great heritage, and some great mindshare they could use to make profits. They do this effectively with the Mustang. Ford has had every opportunity to make Lincoln a success by celebrating their heritage. People loved the Lincolns of the 1960s/70s. They were coherent products that meant something. Today, Lincoln means nothing. This is because Ford refuses to build the cars people expect.
Does Toyota abandon the Camry name? No. Does Ford abandon the Taurus? Amazingly, yes they have... several times.
People don't want a Lincoln MKXZT7. They want Lincoln Town Cars, Continentals and Marks. How complicated can it be... it's really simple.
I thought that was the purpose of Lincoln? Regardless 3 versions of the same car is excessive, to say thel least. The interior looks the same to me between the Fusion and the Milan, except the cheap black trim is spray painted silver in the Milan. Big deal.
Dream as if you'll live forever, live as if you'll die today
Superfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 35710 posts, RR: 88 Reply 52, posted (3 years 2 months 18 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Flight152 (Reply 51): I thought that was the purpose of Lincoln?
Lincolns have different sheet metal and far more features than the Ford variant.
Quoting Flight152 (Reply 51): The interior looks the same to me between the Fusion and the Milan, except the cheap black trim is spray painted silver in the Milan. Big deal.
They should ad wood grain as an option.
I am not happy with Ford's demise of the Mercury brand.
Zone1 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1040 posts, RR: 8 Reply 53, posted (3 years 2 months 18 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Asuflyer05 (Reply 26):
I love Rollers, but the thing that gets me is they use the same chime as the BMW iDrive. If you have a 2004+ BMW with navi you know what I'm taking about.
I believe that chime is the sound of Windows Automotive. You will also hear that on some Ford cars.
Cubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 19207 posts, RR: 18 Reply 54, posted (3 years 2 months 6 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Flight152 (Reply 48): What purpose does Mercury serve which isn't already covered by Ford or Lincoln?
For much of my lifetime, Mercury has been a way to sell Fords at Lincoln dealerships. I'm not arguing that it's smart, but Ford and Lincoln certainly are different.
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