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Are Humans Inherently "Evil"? Study Suggest So  
User currently offlineUAL747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5128 times:

I had forgotten that we studied the Milgram shock and the Stanford Prison studies freshman year of college in Psych. It's interesting and scary what people will do under authority.




http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/12/19...am.experiment.obedience/index.html

"In the early 1960s, a young psychologist at Yale began what became one of the most widely recognized experiments in his field. In the first series, he found that about two-thirds of subjects were willing to inflict what they believed were increasingly painful shocks on an innocent person when the experimenter told them to do so, even when the victim screamed and pleaded."

UAL

39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineConfuscius From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 3826 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5128 times:

Exhibit A




Ain't I a stinker?
User currently offlineUAL747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5117 times:

Exhibit B

Fraternities.

UAL


User currently offlineAirPortugal310 From Palau, joined Apr 2004, 3560 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5075 times:

I think it all depends where you are. Being from the Northeast, its the norm.

Having been to Europe, people are generally nice there...esp Portugal

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 2):
Exhibit B

Fraternities.

UAL

You have this wicked thing against fraternities...i have noted. whats your deal? I am a former "fraternity member" and I see nothing wrong with anything we did...

Im clueless?



A,G,A...nobody rides for free
User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6774 posts, RR: 35
Reply 4, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5063 times:

One mealy mouthed Yale shrink does an experiment and we’re supposed to pontificate about how mankind is evil? Please. There are far more legitimate reasons and true evidence to suggest that there are SOME people who are evil and have done evil things.

I think since MOST of the world is peaceful, most people comport themselves within the boundaries that exist. We create governments to ensure the rights of all and prevent evil from taking hold in our societies.

Personally, I think modern Western culture is that of wussies and sheeple, beaten down to not take risks and have been effectively neutered to not be evil. We have thought police, hate crime laws, regulation and government intrusion into every aspect of our lives.

But I believe man is not created inherently evil at all. We have free will to choose.


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8929 posts, RR: 40
Reply 5, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5051 times:

It's the old saying: power corrupts. That's why power should lie with the law, not directly in the hands of people, democracy or not. No one person or group should rule over another.

People are not evil in nature, but as the article says, once they come under the influence of "authority", they tend to become corrupt.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineUAL747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5019 times:



Quoting AirPortugal310 (Reply 3):
You have this wicked thing against fraternities...i have noted. whats your deal? I am a former "fraternity member" and I see nothing wrong with anything we did...

I am also a "former fraternity member". While we were a non-hazing fraternity, I've seen plenty of guys come back beat up because the pledges were under the authority of the members. While no one died, it was interesting to see that when one person starts beating up on a pledge or making them do things like drinking until they pass out, the rest of the members egg it on, or participate because someone says that is the status quo.

This is the reason why the law enforcement and inter-fraternity, all the way to the national level, are starting banning hazing.

Are you aware how much more it costs to insure a fraternity house? One reason is because so many kids were getting hurt or getting killed.

I'm not saying that everyone does it, but I do know the mentality of fraternities, at least the ones at SMU and OU.

I have nothing against fraternities, but only speak from experience. My experience with my fraternity as well as others was a mixed one. Some people have great experiences, some people don't. If you'd like to talk more about it, PM me. Otherwise I'll leave it there.

UAL


User currently offlineUAL747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5016 times:



Quoting Slider (Reply 4):
But I believe man is not created inherently evil at all. We have free will to choose.

I don't necessarily believe we are "inherently" evil, and maybe I should have titled the thread otherwise, but I do think that when we see authority, we often obey no matter what we do to others.

UAL


User currently offlineAirPortugal310 From Palau, joined Apr 2004, 3560 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5004 times:



Quoting UAL747 (Reply 6):
I have nothing against fraternities, but only speak from experience. My experience with my fraternity as well as others was a mixed one. Some people have great experiences, some people don't.

Fair enough. I suppose we all got our dreaded reputations from the ones that did screw it up...

In 4 years, I saw 3 houses shut down (mine included) simply because of the partying. Where there is a will with campus/town police, there is a way.



A,G,A...nobody rides for free
User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6774 posts, RR: 35
Reply 9, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4991 times:



Quoting UAL747 (Reply 6):
I am also a "former fraternity member".

Not me. I’ll never be a former…I was, am and will be a brother. It didn’t expire once I walked across the stage and got the diploma.

Quoting AirPortugal310 (Reply 8):
Fair enough. I suppose we all got our dreaded reputations from the ones that did screw it up...

Precisely right. For all the knocks on being Greek, it also is a tremendous leadership tool, and a way to get involved in community service/philanthropy, and expand one’s horizons. We didn’t tolerate hazing and the conferences I attended were always very thought provoking to discuss this important topic.


User currently offlineNorthstarBoy From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1824 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 4873 times:
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Ala fraternities, I was an avowed independent in college, my main objection to them being the notion that some people weren't "good enough" to join. i told myself, the day i'd join a frat is the day they'd let anyone join no questions asked, no membership pre-requisites. the funny thing is a good friend of mine used to tell me the only reason i hated frats was because i knew i wouldn't be admitted to one, then i told him i was sigma chi legacy, all i'd need to do is present a letter from a relative of mine to the president and i'm in. boy did his tune change!

Are people inherently evil? i don't think so. I think people are products of their surroundings more than anything, they're products of their upbringings and theyre products of their peers and how their peers treated them in school. People may look at say, the columbine killers and say "evil" i say "misunderstood, too harshly judged by their classmates because they didn't try to fit in, they insisted on being goats not sheep, and the end result of years of torment endured by those boys at the hands of their pre-judging, unforgiving classmates was a tragedy. not that i support what they did in anyway, to be sure, violence and acting out is not the answer, but at the same token, the kids going to that school who pre-judged based on shallow factors such as how they dressed were partly to blame. I think, generally, as a culture we need to teach our kids tolerance, not just towards other races,genders, handicaps, sexual orientations, but towards people who look and act different than themselves, teaching that kind of tolerance starting in kindergarten, would prevent alot of acts of school violence, IMO.



Why are people so against low yields?! If lower yields means more people can travel abroad, i'm all for it
User currently offlineLowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4830 times:

Yes. Every single one of us. If it were not so, why would we need so many laws and regulations to control our behavior and prevent us from harming others? Why would we have to teach children right behavior, restraint, and discipline if they were naturally good?


Proud OOTSK member
User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10594 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4817 times:

Did you know that the Milgram experiment was repeated in a "milder" way this year and that opposed to the beliefs of one of the Milgram participants the outcome sadly did not show that todays people are more reluctant to harm others than almost 50 years ago?

To act "human" in a positive way is in the first place the result of how you have been brought up and how much you are able by reflecting yourself to find out between right or wrong. By far the most people who are cruel without being pressed to act so have a more or less sad background, and the resulting evil breaks loose once the particular person is or feels to be in a position of power.

I believe that the majority of people, males more than females, are indeed able of brutal things, some actively, other only passively (pressing the button or issuing an order). The first are mostly of lower eduction and brains (most famous group: the SS camp guards), the latter are mostly the more intelligent people and of the type you wouldnt expect it from in most cases. But I also belive that by far the most are only able to be cruel if manipulated in some way. This is thankfully much more difficult today than it was decades ago.

Imho everything you do should be reflecting (Kant´s) Categorical Imperative. This "law" is less intolerant than other basic guidelines like religions or state laws and therefore applicable worldwide.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7687 posts, RR: 21
Reply 13, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4795 times:
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Quoting Slider (Reply 4):
One mealy mouthed Yale shrink does an experiment and we’re supposed to pontificate about how mankind is evil? Please. There are far more legitimate reasons and true evidence to suggest that there are SOME people who are evil and have done evil things.

You are right that there is a lot of evil in the world to point to in order to demonstrate that mankind is evil. However, the original experiment is slightly more refined than simply looking at what the worst people on the planet do, whether in crimes, wars, acts of genocide or whatever.

Although it was specific to the situation of the Second World War, one thing that interested Milgram was how seemingly ordinary folk in Germany were apparently very easily persuaded to take part in organising the persecution and extermination of an entire people. Many of these people had been model citizens before and led perfectly stable, productive lives.

This is what the experiment really intended to test - the ability to persuade 'ordinary' people without criminal past or significant previous bad behaviour to hurt others, even against their own instincts and feelings. Although no force was used on participants of the experiment, a researcher would firmly tell the individual concerned that they had no choice but to continue to hurt the person who played the object of torture, and that it was necessary for the experiment. How readily would they follow these simple commands in a situation of increasing stress?

The answer, as you can imagine from what has already been discussed, was that it was overwhelmingly easy to get people to inflict what they believed to be terrible levels of pain and suffering on another person. It was important that the receiver of the ill-treatment was not known to the subject of the experiment, and that they would no doubt never encounter the individual ever again. Not being able to physically see the person receiving the shock provided further detachment and dehumanisation to the situation, removing a certain degree of reality from the consequences of the subject's cruel actions. This has similarities to the Holocaust setting in that many people were involved in rounding up, persecuting and transporting Jews and others to death camps, but how many were actually ever involved in the worst parts - the brutal day-to-day life in the concentration camps and the eventual wholesale extermination? Comparatively few.

It is somewhat alarming that people will so readily obey instructions of those running the show, and this is an entirely different thing from saying that a proportion of people will voluntarily commit crimes etc. if given the chance to do so. Similar experiments have also been carried out involving hideous cruelty to animals, including kittens, puppies and rats. Each time the results were very clear - no matter how much they seem to not want to, or how much it hurts them to do so, people on the whole will follow instructions to commit acts of cruelty comparatively readily. Again, we know there are bad people out there who will be mean to animals, but one would have hoped that it would be difficult to persuade somebody who likes animals, and even has pets of their own that they love and look after, to be cruel to a creature just because somebody is telling them to.

These experiments have lessons for us about authority figures, people's suggestability and obedience levels, and how people deal with moral dilemmas in stressful situations, seemingly acting totally out of character from their normal standards of behaviour and beliefs.

Whilst such experiments only allow us to draw relatively crude conclusions, I believe they do nonetheless contain some strong lessons and implications, and do have their place in learning more about how human beings function and why they do what they do. To say that a researcher is 'pontificating' to the population at large simply because he is involved in such experiments is somewhat unfair. The enquiring mind poses an interesting question and he devises a test scenario to try and answer it. He can only draw conclusions about the actual results he gets, and goes into the whole thing trying hard not to prejudge the outcome. Even if others do not agree with the conclusions come to, or wish to draw their own, the raw data and results are there for evaluation.

Still, read about the experiment in detail and make your own minds up about how valid you think it is and what, if anything, we can learn from it.

Thanks for listening.

RJet

(Edit - typos)

[Edited 2008-12-21 09:35:03]


✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10594 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4784 times:



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 13):
Although it was specific to the situation of the Second World War, one that interested Milgram was how seemingly ordinary folk in Germany were apparently very easily persuaded to take part in organising the persecution and extermination of an entire people. Many of these people had been model citizens before and led perfectly stable, productive lives.

And, odd enough, many if not the majority of these were "model" citizens afterwards again, and did not remain criminals, even actively building up Western Germany to a sound democratic country. For some it must have been like waking up from a drug trip after ´45.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7687 posts, RR: 21
Reply 15, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4782 times:
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Quoting NA (Reply 14):
And, odd enough, many if not the majority of these were "model" citizens afterwards again, and did not remain criminals, even actively building up Western Germany to a sound democratic country. For some it must have been like waking up from a drug trip after ´45.

Indeed, and I doubt very much if the experiments I refer to led to the participants then going on to start commiting abhorrent acts all over the place, or to go around cutting rats' heads off, etc. If anything, as I understand it, it put them off such acts even more strongly. How easily or otherwise they might be persuaded a second time on a seperate occasion we don't know, as such experiments are deemed too stressful on those taking part and morally questionable. Obviously there are serious ethical questions to be considered in planning any such experiments as those we discuss here.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13151 posts, RR: 78
Reply 16, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4758 times:

What I take from these findings, which seem to confirm similar experiments, (such as the notorious Stanford Prison one), is that most people are easily coerced into doing what they would normally find unacceptable, given the right amount of peer pressure.
Also if they are told that what they are doing is for a greater good.

So maybe the title of this thread should be Are Humans Inherently Sheep Like?

So who are the real 'evil' ones?
Those who tell others they should do these things, the example pictured in reply 1 being a good example (in this case, worse since he's such a damn coward himself).

8 out of 10 in these experiments did these things, or thought they were doing them.
That means only 2 out of 10 have a really strong moral compass.

Perhaps this explains how mobs work, be they in a riot, or a smaller ground harming someone else for sadistic pleasure.
How many cases have we seen when in court, one of two were found to have initiated violence and then pressured others to join in?

Now I'm not comparing with the previous examples I've cited directly, but here can we start to see how Nazi Germany was possible.
Sure, most did not know the full details of the 'Final Solution', but they knew the Jews and others seen as undesirable had been persecuted, driven from home and their businesses, finally 'deported East'.
And most totally went along with it. Many benefited from it too.

Not just in Germany either, in certain parts of what was then Russia the German Einszatsgruppen were aided by locals, accounts of the Jews in a village being beaten to death, while who were recently their neighbors if not joining in, cheered it on, one account even spoke of folk songs on an accordion being played during the slaughter and the villagers comparing what property they had gained from this.

Even worse than that, in Rwanda in 1994, a much higher proportion actually took a direct part in the slaughter, with machetes being the weapon of choice.
Years of pent up dislike of 'the other', finally unleashed by exhortations to murder by radio broadcast, regardless of the age or gender of the victims.
Whether they knew them or if they were strangers.

How to think of this, myself, trite as it may seem, I recall a line from a sing by a British rock band from about 10 years ago;
If you tolerate this, then your children will be next.


User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10594 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4707 times:



Quoting GDB (Reply 16):
Not just in Germany either, in certain parts of what was then Russia the German Einszatsgruppen were aided by locals, accounts of the Jews in a village being beaten to death, while who were recently their neighbors if not joining in, cheered it on, one account even spoke of folk songs on an accordion being played during the slaughter and the villagers comparing what property they had gained from this.

That was because the Soviets committed large scale crimes themselves in East Poland and the Baltic States invaded in ´39. There are so many (seemingly neutral) reports about quite a number of jews involved on the side of the communists that it was easy to find enough simple-minded brutes to do "revenge". One example being lemberg/Lwow, were 4000 were shot by the NKWD in the days before the Germans came. No wonder that they found enough locals to pay back, even if with the wrong "currency". And the oppression by the Soviets in the Baltic was no better than what the Nazis later did, just other groups of people being massacred and sent to the Gulags. Thinking it couldnt get worse the Wehrmacht was welcomed with flowers and food in many places. The same happened in Ukraine, before the "job" of the Einsatzgruppen (a mix of SS, SD, German police and locals) got known. One should not forget that Stalin killed equally many if not more Ukrainians in the early 30s by deliberately starving them to death than jews were massacred by the SS in the KZs. That to understand why locals helped the invaders from the west. How in the world could anybody expect that these would be equally bad and sometimes worse than the ones who had done all those killings just a few years before?

Quoting GDB (Reply 16):
Even worse than that, in Rwanda in 1994, a much higher proportion actually took a direct part in the slaughter, with machetes being the weapon of choice.

Only in that respect that genocide is even more horrible than the Nazi mass-murder, if that is possible. But what makes the Nazi atrocities so singular is not the sheer numbers killed, its the way many were killed. The gas chambers arent the worst things they did. The slave system of working hundreds of thousands of people to death in an average of 3 months is more horrible.
Btw, in the reports about the court trial against the main Ruandan responsible for the genocide it was written that those machetes were ordered and delivered from China. I wonder what the Chinese thought when they delivered 400.000 machetes to Ruanda. Everything for cutting leaves and branches, I´m (not so) sure.

Sidenote: In the late 90s I worked in a nicely renovated large building. After a few weeks I was told that part of that exact building was used as a slave workers camp at the end of WW2. I thought to myself, well, that were the bad times, working under severe conditions at least not in a KZ, and never expected what really happened there. Then I visited the small ceremony when a memorial was erected at the building complex in the presence of some of those former slave-workers and they told us some of the things happening there, that just on the other side of the street two of them were shot when they tried to run away. Later I learned that from the 1000+ forced to die working there (many of them survivors of the ghetto extermination at Warsaw) indeed died, by hunger, torture, disease or on the transport away from there in the very last days of the war. In the very place I worked for two years, in a beautiful office.


User currently offlineWunalaYann From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2839 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4704 times:



Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter):
Are Humans Inherently "Evil"?

I sure as hell am.  devil 


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7687 posts, RR: 21
Reply 19, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4668 times:
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Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 18):
I sure as hell am. devil

Would you torture kittens if I put on a white coat and instructed you to do so?



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 957 posts, RR: 51
Reply 20, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4666 times:

I don't think there is a single inherent human predisposition. Some people are explorers, some are entrepreneurs, some are evil, some are extremely generous, etc. I don't think you can cast a single generalization about everyone. Even in the shock survey, one-third of people wouldn't continue applying painful shocks. That's not a trivial fraction.

Furthering my opinion, when someone says there is a single inherent predisposition, it usually seems to be for the purpose of advancing an agenda. The manned spaceflight people beat the "humans as explorers" drum to no end, and I know for certain there are millions of people who don't care one bit about "exploration." Same with ardent capitalist and free marketeers, everyone is an entrepreneur at heart, etc, etc.


User currently offlineWunalaYann From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2839 posts, RR: 25
Reply 21, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 4661 times:



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 19):
Would you torture kittens if I put on a white coat and instructed you to do so?

Of course not. Why?  confused 

But I am evil nonetheless. Proof is, I am French and believe that:

1) there is a negotiable solution to virtually every conflict,
2) we should be environmentally responsible and prudent,
3) all humans are equal (including Chelsea FC supporters),
4) most BMWs are ugly,
5) abortion should be allowed in certain clearly defined situations,
6) the 757 is just plain fugly,
7) Italy had no business winning the '06 World Cup,
8) Zinzan Brooke is the greatest player of all time,
9) there is no such thing as "war on terror" as "terror" is an emotion, not an enemy, it's "terrorism" we talk about and even that cannot be fought using tanks and jet fighters, much less by invading countries that have nothing to do with it, without a UN mandate.
10) France should become the 17th land of Germany.

Now where's my seat in hell? I'm told there are many topless waitresses there.

 biggrin 


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7687 posts, RR: 21
Reply 22, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 4659 times:
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Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 21):
Of course not. Why? confused

Well you can't be all that evil then.

Especially as I agree with quite a few of your 'beliefs' listed above.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineJohns624 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 899 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4610 times:



Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 21):
6) the 757 is just plain fugly,

Blasphemy! Long legs, skinny waist, big jugs...what more could you ask for???


User currently offlineJakeOrion From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1253 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4601 times:



Quoting Johns624 (Reply 23):
Blasphemy! Long legs, skinny waist, big jugs...what more could you ask for???

A woman...



Every problem has a simple solution; finding the simple solution is the difficult problem.
25 WunalaYann : And a big fat nose. Plastic surgery anyone? Or two. Or three. Or...
26 Slider : Depends on how much money we're talking about. Cats might be free. Dogs, no way.
27 Viaggiare : I will say what needs to be said and then I'm outta here... It is all rooted in sin.
28 Planespotting : People in groups = as evil as Satan himself. (say what you want, but when groupthink takes over and individuals stop thinking, the most awful things h
29 FLY2HMO : And sororities for that matter I agree.
30 JRDC930 : I would have to agree with this statement; the 19th and 20th centuries are definately good examples that humans are not born good. Also just take a lo
31 Post contains links SKYSERVICE_330 : Somewhat related to this topic, here is a good TED.com lecture on the history of violence that I watched a few months ago for anyone interested... Ste
32 N229NW : I've long found the Milgram experiments to be chilling and extremely telling. I think they should be essential reading for anyone anywhere. The Stanfo
33 MD-90 : I thought that the Bible pretty conclusively established this 1900 years ago.
34 NA : What are you referring to? The definition that humans are inherently bad? The ten commandments are way older btw. In an important point old and new t
35 MD-90 : Indeed, but the Bible as we know it was organized in the first century.
36 Lowrider : Actually the oft quoted "eye for an eye" when read it its entirety is a limitation and not a license. It limited the retribution a person could seek
37 DocLightning : A man to do a man's job. That and if it's Hamurabi's code then only a slave's eye was worth a slave's eye. If a nobleman put out a slave's eye he onl
38 WunalaYann : Spoken from experience, Mr Smartypants? Thought so.
39 Growly150 : I like to try not to live in fear and listen to sensationalized news stories but there are some messed up ones out there. If you think it can't hit cl
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