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Study On Correlation Between Gun Laws And Crime  
User currently offlineEaa3 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1015 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 9 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5842 times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/23/op...partner=permalink&exprod=permalink

"The study analyzed trace data for guns used in connection with crimes during 2007. The data reveal a strong correlation between weak state gun laws and higher rates of in-state murders, police slayings and sales of guns used in crimes in other states."

Interesting. I've heard the opposite from some in this forum i.e. More access to guns= less gun crime.

171 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (5 years 9 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5843 times:

Unfortunately, because you used the "Liberal Elitist" New York Times as a source, regardless of the validity of the study, it will be immediately discredited as left wing propaganda.

Too bad. How about finding the primary source for the study and posting that link.


User currently offlineJohns624 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 923 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 5800 times:

What about California. They have tough gun laws, yet gangs have no problem killing each other with guns.

User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 5790 times:



Quoting Eaa3 (Thread starter):

Washington DC has one of the toughest gun laws in the country....and the highest crime rates in the country



"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineWunalaYann From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2839 posts, RR: 25
Reply 4, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 5786 times:



Quoting Johns624 (Reply 2):
What about California. They have tough gun laws, yet gangs have no problem killing each other with guns.

Probably. But until you can provide data as to the prevalence of shootings in California compared to the national average, it is not terribly informative.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 1):
How about finding the primary source for the study and posting that link.

I have been trying but because the report has yet to be released, I do not think you will find anything solid until the release of the full report.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39887 posts, RR: 74
Reply 5, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 5767 times:

I don't feel any safer with our strict gun laws here in San Francisco, California.


As much as I do not like this particular source, there is a lot of truth in this article that the anti-gun crowd conveniently ignores. (dated 2005)
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0131/p02s01-ussc.html



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineDXing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 5736 times:



Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 1):
Unfortunately, because you used the "Liberal Elitist" New York Times as a source, regardless of the validity of the study, it will be immediately discredited as left wing propaganda.

Especially since it's an editorial and the source material is not linked.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 1):
Too bad. How about finding the primary source for the study and posting that link.

Yep. When that becomes available I'm willing to bet the story will look a lot different.


User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4833 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 5728 times:



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 3):
Washington DC has one of the toughest gun laws in the country....and the highest crime rates in the country

Whats the point of having tough laws in one city when people can quite easily just pop across and by them somewhere else?

Quoting Eaa3 (Thread starter):
Interesting. I've heard the opposite from some in this forum i.e. More access to guns= less gun crime.

Thats ridiculous... just take a look at all the OECD countries. The US gun control laws are a complete and utter joke...no wonder why you have the highest rate of gun crime and gun related deaths in the developed world! (and not by a small margin either both in total gun crime and per capita rates).



56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 5725 times:

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 7):
Whats the point of having tough laws in one city when people can quite easily just pop across and by them somewhere else?

Because you can't do that. You must be a resident of the state you live in to buy a gun... or go through a FLL Dealer in your state and have the gun shipped to that dealer from out of state FFL dealer. You still need to go through all the background checks.

[Edited 2008-12-23 19:07:31]


"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7704 posts, RR: 21
Reply 9, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 5716 times:
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Quoting Superfly (Reply 5):
there is a lot of truth in this article that the anti-gun crowd conveniently ignores. (dated 2005)
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0131/p02s01-ussc.html

I like this bit:
"some of the most far-reaching gun-control laws to spread across the country, including assault-weapons bans and monthly limits on how many guns one person can purchase."

Monthly limit? Who buys guns monthly?! "Oh hi Fred. How many guns would you like today?" "Oh, just the ten guns for me this month please. Money's been a bit tight recently, you see."



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 5711 times:



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 9):

Monthly limit? Who buys guns monthly?

Phoney dealers.....???? You need to have a FFL Dealer license to sell legally....



"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7704 posts, RR: 21
Reply 11, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 5707 times:
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Quoting EMBQA (Reply 10):
Phoney dealers.

So tackle phoney dealers and let me buy my fifty guns for, ahem, 'hunting'.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 977 posts, RR: 51
Reply 12, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5695 times:

Gun control is just a symbolic gesture at best or social engineering at worst. People who want to hurt each other will still do it. Guns don't make it any easier or enable violence for people who have the motive to kill. So do you really think gun laws change people? The UK with it's famous (or infamous) gun control now has people asking for regulation on kitchen knives due to the number of stabbings that take place:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4581871.stm

In the end, the people who lose are law-abiding citizens who are robbed of a completely legitimate means of defending themselves.


User currently offlineJohns624 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 923 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5677 times:



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 9):
Monthly limit? Who buys guns monthly?! "Oh hi Fred. How many guns would you like today?" "Oh, just the ten guns for me this month please. Money's been a bit tight recently, you see."

Sounds like jealousy to me. We may not buy guns monthly, but we CAN. Great Britain's tough gun laws never seemed to stop the IRA, did they?


User currently offlineDiamond From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3279 posts, RR: 63
Reply 14, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5634 times:



Quoting DXing (Reply 6):
Yep. When that becomes available I'm willing to bet the story will look a lot different.



Quoting DXing (Reply 6):
Especially since it's an editorial and the source material is not linked.

The article & data that the NY Times referred to came from a December 2008 study done by the "Mayors Against Illegla Guns" organization.

From the "about us" portion of their site: " ... We are extremely pleased that over 320 mayors from more than 40 states have joined the Mayors Against Illegal Guns Coalition, and we welcome other mayors to stand with us. Over the coming months, we will continue to work with our fellow mayors to share best practices, develop innovative policies, and support legislation at the national, state, and local levels that will help law enforcement target illegal guns ... "

The study itself can be found here:

http://www.mayorsagainstillegalguns....wnloads/pdf/trace_report_final.pdf



Blank.
User currently offlineEaa3 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1015 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 5628 times:



Quoting DXing (Reply 6):
Especially since it's an editorial and the source material is not linked.

The New York Times may be liberal but they are honest so I don´t really see the point of doubting it.


User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4833 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5615 times:



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 8):
Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 7):
Whats the point of having tough laws in one city when people can quite easily just pop across and by them somewhere else?

Because you can't do that. You must be a resident of the state you live in to buy a gun... or go through a FLL Dealer in your state and have the gun shipped to that dealer from out of state FFL dealer. You still need to go through all the background checks.

or just buy one 2nd hand off someone else...
or dodgy gun dealers...
or list your address as in state
or get a drivers license from that state
or one of many other methods its not hard when there are about as many guns as people out there.

I'm of the opinion that there is no real need for a private citizen to have a handgun.
Farmers can have their shotguns and 303 rifles etc, the police and military can have their handguns etc too. The problem is of course that there are already too many guns out there. It's a process that would take 30 years to really get under control and even then there would be a lot of old guns out there or guns brought in illegally from Mexico.

Whilst American's love to have a laugh at Canadians, you only need to look at your Northern Neighbour to see the difference in gun crime.



56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21641 posts, RR: 55
Reply 17, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5599 times:



Quoting Diamond (Reply 14):
The study itself can be found here:

The first half of that report is all about guns being exported from states that have lax gun laws to those that have tough gun laws, and then being used in crimes there. Which isn't surprising, since if you want to get a gun and the state you're living in won't let you, you can just go over the border and get one at a gun show, where the background check requirements are less, or don't exist at all.

The statistics on gun murders and police shootings (pages 25 and 26 of the report) are interesting, though - they say that in states with a high number of exported guns, the gun murder rates and the police shooting rates are higher. One assumes that gun laws are more lax in these states, since that's what creates the export market in the first place.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineSignol From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2007, 3006 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5596 times:



Quoting Johns624 (Reply 13):
Great Britain's tough gun laws never seemed to stop the IRA, did they?

The hint there is the letter "I" - as in Irish, so not British, so our gun laws don't come into it.

signol



Flights booked: none :(
User currently offlineHomer71 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 2244 posts, RR: 14
Reply 19, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5569 times:



Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 15):
New York Times may be liberal but they are honest

Absolutely, the NYT relies on accurate reporting from their "journalists"

Sincerely,
Jayson Blair



"On spaceship earth there are no passengers...only crew."
User currently offlineJohns624 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 923 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5546 times:



Quoting Signol (Reply 18):
The hint there is the letter "I" - as in Irish, so not British, so our gun laws don't come into it.

Last time I checked, Northern Ireland was part of Great Britain. People are always laughing about how Americans don't know anything about geography, I see we're not the only ones.


User currently offlineFalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6105 posts, RR: 28
Reply 21, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5545 times:
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Quoting RussianJet (Reply 9):
Monthly limit? Who buys guns monthly?! "Oh hi Fred. How many guns would you like today?" "Oh, just the ten guns for me this month please. Money's been a bit tight recently, you see."

I have bought four this year for myself and four as gifts.

Quoting Homer71 (Reply 19):
Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 15):
New York Times may be liberal but they are honest

Absolutely, the NYT relies on accurate reporting from their "journalists"

Sincerely,
Jayson Blair

The NYT is only honest is you happen to believe what it says. Why are some people so quick to believe everything the news media says about this topic. All the time I read people's threads about the news media screwing up avaition stories. If they screw up those stories why wouldn't they get their facts wrong on other stories too. Two papers can have very different angles on the same story.

A few years ago a man, from Detroit, was shot as he was driving on the Ohio Turnpike. The next morning I read the Detroit Free Press and the story made it sound like a random crime and this guy was just a victim of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Later that day I drove to Pittsburgh and bought a paper there. That evening (it was still the morning edition) I read a story about the same shooting and the story was about a gang related drug deal gone bad and a chase that ended in a shooting. It was amazing the the difference in reporting of the same story.

Quoting Mir (Reply 17):
since if you want to get a gun and the state you're living in won't let you, you can just go over the border and get one at a gun show, where the background check requirements are less, or don't exist at all.

Have you ever bought a gun at a gun show? The NCIC check is the same at all of them. If you really want to commit a violent crime you are better off to buy one on the street for $50 (cheap handgun) that was illegaly imported. Where would you buy an illegal gun on the street? Any number of drug dealers in Detroit (or any other city) will get you one.

Not every gun used in a crime was purchased legaly at one point in its life. Liberals will never understand that. There are millions of guns brought into this country illegaly every year. We can't stop drugs or illegal immagrants so what makes you think we can stop guns that are illegaly brought into the country? If you have 500 assault rifles show up stuck in a shipping container. They are brought into the counrty illegally and sold to people in the drug trade. Lets say another 500 similar guns is imported legally and sold at local retail shops where all the customers are legal. Which 500 guns are more likely used in the commission of a violent crime? That is an easy question to answer, but who gets the blame when something goes wrong? It is a lot easier to point fingers at the law abiding gun store that everyone can see, but the shaddy importer gets no notice at all.



Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 16):
Whilst American's love to have a laugh at Canadians, you only need to look at your Northern Neighbour to see the difference in gun crime

It isn't just laws that make people safe. The type of society is relavant too. Russia has a lot of violent crime, but gun ownership is restricted. If Canada had the population that the USA did and had the huge amounts of street gangs they would have the same problems as the USA.

Murder is already against the law and if you are going to commit murder you already have a problem. When people think it is ok to kill people that is the real problem. We need to combat that problem. There has always been guns in the USA and at one time they were as easy to get as ordering them from Sears or buyintg them at the hardware store. There were few laws regarding firearms. We didn't start to see these problems in society until the 1960s when the morality and godlessness took over. I am glad to see the liberals made world safer by making sure that we all do whatever we feel like and have taken god out of our lives.

We all have to remember that very little gun crime in the USA is Random. A lot of the crimes we hear about are drug related, in some way. Get rid of the drugs and a lot of our crime would go away.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 16):
I'm of the opinion that there is no real need for a private citizen to have a handgun.

A government that doesn't trust its citizens with firearms should not be trusted with firearms itself.

I will never give up my guns. I will die to defend my rights. I will kill to defend my rights. If we eliminate part of the US Constitution we might as well get rid of the entire thing. The Bill of Rights it NOT open for discussion. A lot of people want to think that the 2nd ammendment is regarding the military, that is a load of crap. Why would anyone think that the founders of the USA would have to make a provision so the military could own guns? What kind of a country wouldn't allow the military to own guns?



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineJohns624 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 923 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5544 times:



Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 16):
or just buy one 2nd hand off someone else...
or dodgy gun dealers...
or list your address as in state
or get a drivers license from that state
or one of many other methods its not hard when there are about as many guns as people out there.

It's a process that would take 30 years to really get under control and even then there would be a lot of old guns out there or guns brought in illegally from Mexico.

Whilst American's love to have a laugh at Canadians, you only need to look at your Northern Neighbour to see the difference in gun crime.

There are so many misconceptions in your post, let's see if I can correct the most obvious.
There are very, very few "dodgy" gun dealers. Requirements were tightened several years ago that put just about all "part-time" dealers out of business.
You just can't list an address from another state. There are Federal background checks.
You have to meet residency requirements beore you can get a license from a state. You must also turn in your old license.
Any person buying a gun from a dealer (even at a gun show) has to undergo a Federal (FBI) background check.
Mexico has tougher gun laws than the US. Of course, that doesn't stop their drug cartels from shooting up towns.


User currently offlineSignol From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2007, 3006 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5540 times:



Quoting Johns624 (Reply 20):
Last time I checked, Northern Ireland was part of Great Britain. People are always laughing about how Americans don't know anything about geography, I see we're not the only ones.

I think you'll find that whilst Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom, it is not part of Great Britain (the country's official name is "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"). But that's for another thread  Smile

signol



Flights booked: none :(
User currently offlineBHMBAGLOCK From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2698 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5520 times:



Quoting Diamond (Reply 14):
The article & data that the NY Times referred to came from a December 2008 study done by the "Mayors Against Illegla Guns" organization.

Gee, you think they may have had an idea of the desired result of the "study" before they started? Sounds about as unbiased as an NRA study.

While it's true that the gun show loophole needs fixing, the primary culprit here is the anti-gun lobby and the very difficult hurdles put in place to obtaining an FFL. For somebody who would like to buy and sell guns primarily as a hobby but maybe make a few dollars along the way, the FFL fees and local business license requirements are probably OK but the inflexible requirement to have a brick and mortar place of business puts it well out of reach of most who don't want to make a complete living of it. Requiring a secure storage area would be one thing but a separate place of business(basement, etc. won't do) is ridiculous. We would be well served if the laws were changed to encourage bringing people into the regulated system of buying and selling firearms rather than forcing them out of it.



Where are all of my respected members going?
25 Falstaff : I am a Life member of the NRA and I have always taken some of their reporting with a grain of salt because I know they will lean to their point of vi
26 Seb146 : That is just what I was thinking. California may have strict gun laws, but Oregon and Texas do not have as strict gun laws. So, what is to stop someo
27 Eaa3 : So ok. Knife crime is on the rise in Britain. Would the solution be to introduce guns into the equation!!!
28 BHMBAGLOCK : Potentially yes. I used to live in Burlington County, NJ which is really and truly one of only a handful of gun friendly areas of the state but happe
29 Johns624 : And the laws in NI differ how from GB??? So, if guns are the cause of crime, why don't laxer gun law states like Oregon and Texas (YOUR examples) hav
30 Petertenthije : That is the reason of your security, not because you have guns, but because the areas around you have not. If guns where to be introduced in the whol
31 TristarAtLCA : John's, you are referring to a terrorist group. Do you think the gun laws of any country mattered to them? Comparing them to citizens holding firearm
32 Fr8Mech : Typically, in order to buy a firearms, you have to establish residency or prove you are legally able to purchase a firearm in your state of resisdenc
33 BHMBAGLOCK : I would disagree. Our big problems with guns are in large, urban areas where it is most difficult for law abiding citizens to legally carry a weapon.
34 Mir : And, in many states, anyone buying a gun from a private seller at a gun show does not. That needs fixing. -Mir
35 Petertenthije : The criminal will always have the advantage as he picks the time, location and target. Unless the reflexes of the person being robbed are lightning f
36 Johns624 : No, it's a great comparison. Substitute "drug dealers" for "terrorist group" and you'll see what I mean. The point I was trying to make was that no m
37 Johns624 : Whoever said they wanted to do that? We'll keep our guns and you can keep your royalty. Fair trade?
38 TristarAtLCA : The glaring difference is that the drug dealers of the States managed to arm themselves in a nation awash with firearms whilst the IRA had to smuggle
39 Post contains links Keesje : Don't like the outcomes ; discredit the source. A Pavlov reaction. I guess when everybody wouldn't loves guns and learned their kids it's a right, law
40 Falstaff : That depends on what you mean by out of control. A dead robber would be fantastic, but some would see that as a bad thing. If you commit a crime agai
41 TristarAtLCA : Whilst I do not doubt what you say, my comment was in context to a terrorist group arming themselves in a non-gun nation. However Falstaff, I would b
42 Falstaff : I would agree with your statement. I think the gun's origin may vary greatly with the type of crime and criminal.
43 Johns624 : Yes and no. I own around a dozen guns at the present. They are like golf clubs, one can't do everything. They are about equally divided between hunti
44 DfwRevolution : I own a gun because I do not want to be dependent on anyone else to defend my life and property. I don't even live in an area with high crime, but th
45 Mham001 : I heard on the radio today (from a liberal talk host) that 55% of gun deaths in the US are suicides. I suppose that would technically fit as a crime s
46 Johns624 : The current one, anyway! I was really referring to a country's traditions and customs that "outsiders" don't understand but the host country feels a
47 DocLightning : Numbers become important. As in deaths per homocide per 100,000 inhabitants. That does make it suspect but not necessarily invalid. It's important to
48 WunalaYann : As long as you don't bring your arsenal of guns when you permanently move to Australia next month, you can support whatever you want. Once you set fo
49 FlyMIA : Lets not forget Washington DC is not a city, its pretty much like a state. You cant buy a gun outside of the state you live in. I have heard this bef
50 Johns624 : Not really. Everyone buying a gun from a dealer has to go through the FBI NICS background check unless their state police has their own system in pla
51 Baroque : You would think that the chart on p26 alone would cause a few blushes among those cast aspersions at the patrimony of the information in the thread s
52 Post contains links Keesje : I do not believe only criminals kill and they own illegal guns not from USA and haven't seen any statistics who endorse that theory, not even on the N
53 Petertenthije : Not so outside the US where, other then the police and military, civilians never get to touch a handgun. As for handgun training for police officers,
54 Post contains links Baroque : Indeed it does Keesje, and as I learn from DfwRevolution (Reply 50) apparently quite a few of us are viewing it from "Utopia here and now", up and ru
55 Zkpilot : Frightening? Let me tell you about my country...New Zealand... We do not consider ourselves to live in some kind of Utopia for starters... As for fri
56 Post contains links Baroque : IMHO (or not so H if push comes to shove!) really is closer to Utopia than Aus. OK, I was being good and not posting this so timely link, but you tem
57 Mayor : And do you not think the drug gangs would find a way to arm themselves if it truly was a "non-gun" nation? No matter if it's guns, knives, baseball b
58 Mham001 : I hope you don't have the perception that the police are wearing their guns out shooting at criminals. Few cops in their career will ever shoot their
59 TristarAtLCA : LOL. Good point !! Would you still need the gun if you didn't feel fearful of armed criminals? And isn't a good alarm and a dog more of a deterrant f
60 Seb146 : I actually do not know what the gun laws are in any state. My partner was born and grew up in California. He has told me on many occasions that gun l
61 TristarAtLCA : Of course not and I never implied such a thing. The point I referred to was in relation to a completely seperate issue. Agreed. But that seems as har
62 Falstaff : I don't think that bad things will happen if I step outside, but bad things do happen. A lot of people like to be prepared for an emergency and don't
63 Fr8Mech : I carry a gun because it gives me options should a situation present itself. Much like insurance or an umbrella, except louder. I certainly do not fe
64 Keesje : Maybe that is the clue. I can be 99.999% sure no one I meet has a gun. During 40 yrs I have never met anyone having a gun, or have ambitions owning o
65 Johns624 : But lawabiding citizens don't normally break the law. There is a big difference between buying a gun and being allowed to carry it. Where would you m
66 RussianJet : Jealousy? You have to be kidding! Never in this life. Taking the piss out the fact that people can buy guns monthly, or that they should ever feel th
67 WunalaYann : You most definitely do belong! And my apologies for the omission! Now, when are you guys organising the referendum to re-join the Commonwealth so we
68 Falstaff : That is a huge cultural difference between us. Out of the 40 or so people that I regularly associate with I can count on one hand how many do not own
69 RussianJet : I don't view it as a choice between gun crime or knife crime. We should tackle both.
70 JJJ : What's that? We have our share of Islamic terrorists here but street gangs?
71 Seb146 : Me too. My brother lives in rural Washington and owns guns. Not much crime at all there. Even with illegals working the fields in the summer. Here, t
72 RussianJet : Not 'even' discharged? You say that as though it someone makes it better that so many crimes are being commited using firearms in the first place.
73 Post contains images BHMBAGLOCK : These military branches existed long before we were a super power. There are dangers other than criminals, i.e. much of the US is populated by animal
74 Johns624 : What bothers me is that in Australia, guns were pretty much outlawed due to one deranged man shooting a bunch of people. That makes as much sense as o
75 RussianJet : For the better or for the worse, and why? I assume the necessary firearms are available as tools to people such as farmers to use?
76 WunalaYann : And I believe it was a very, very, very good thing to do, and am grateful to lawmakers at the time who took a bold step. The fact remains that we do
77 Seb146 : Hell no! People simply use a gun to commit a crime. They do get a harsher penalty, but, the fact that guns are easily avaliable was what I was gettin
78 Johns624 : I wonder what the rate of "civil disobedience" is in Australia? I've heard that it's pretty high in Canada, especially Alberta and the Far North. I be
79 Post contains links Baroque : As WY remarks, does not fuss most Australians one little bit. Only odd thing was seeing Johnny feel he had to wear a bullet proof vest while addressi
80 Zkpilot : excellent post and interesting reading! I'm not opposed to it... I think both countries (but NZL in particular) would be better off if NZL joined the
81 WunalaYann : Don't worry, we would still check outgoing planes from our airports heading for yours, for all sorts of dole money. More seriously, come on in, guys.
82 Baroque : Well I have been checking up on the proportion of undetected crime here recently and am pleased to be able to report the same results as for civil di
83 RussianJet : I appreciate the clarification of your views as provided, which is all I was seeking in posting my comment earlier. I was not intending to make any a
84 Mayor : Why not tackle the causes of the crime and not the means?
85 RussianJet : I would never suggest the causes should not be tackled - however, doing both seems like a sound plan.
86 Falstaff : I know all of mine will disapear if that happens in the USA. If government agents come to sieze them they will have to kill me first and I will take
87 IgneousRocks : Well, if I lived in New Zealand I'd probably agree with you. Canada doesn't share a nearly 2,000 mile porous border with a nation that serves as a co
88 WellHung : Accusations of ignorance are nothing but comic relief and irony from someone who blames Mexico for the huge discrepancy in gun violence between the U
89 RussianJet : Although geography is a factor, if one were to claim this was the only reason for such differences between the USA and Canada in respect of gun crime
90 Mayor : And yet, the do still have crime, don't they? Restricting the guns hasn't changed that, has it?
91 Seb146 : That is a good idea, but what is the cause of crime? Mostly, it is to get money for drugs. That is trying to be tackled, but there are still drug add
92 Post contains links Baroque : Excellently Hung as you might say. My understanding is that the US is a major source of guns for Mexico. So yes the border does seem to be porous, bu
93 RussianJet : has anyone suggested that resctricting guns would get rid of all crime, be it gun crime or other?
94 Mayor : I'm not suggesting I know how to do it, but if you get rid of the guns, you'll still have crime and the root cause (drugs, in your example) will stil
95 RussianJet : And again, why not tackle crime AND the causes of crime simultaneously?
96 Falstaff : Violence is usually a staple of poor communities too. I know that in many wealthy areas around my city there are large numbers of gun owners. Many of
97 RussianJet : Of course there is. First of all, unless you can solve all the causes of crime overnight then by tackling the actual crimes you will help protect inn
98 Cptkrell : Sorry to jump in here late, and I admit I haven't read ALL of the previous 185+ replies, so I'll apologize if the following is redundant as far as mat
99 IgneousRocks : Who is blaming Mexico? The United States proximity to Mexico and Central America factors greatly into criminal violence in the U.S. no matter what th
100 Mayor : That's fine, but, again, the guns are neither the crime nor the cause of the crime. They are just a means of carrying out the crime, just as a knife,
101 JJJ : Well, other countries have drug addicts, too. And drug mafias making enormous profits which often fight other mafias for the same turf. Gun crime in
102 WellHung : Considering the quote was directly from you and blames Mexico for the difference in gun violence between the US and Canada, I would have to say... "y
103 WunalaYann : What you call "a problem", we call "a massacre". Better yet, "massacres", plural. We believe there is a direct link between owning firearms and those
104 Mayor : Doesn't make any difference whether they are designed to kill or not.........they are still used that way. Lets take a baseball bat as another exampl
105 RussianJet : Practically any object could be used to attack someone with, even a cup or a book, for example.
106 Johns624 : Exactly. Which is why the emphasis should be on the criminal, not the tool.
107 RussianJet : Not necessarily, because obviously some things are designed to be much better for killing people with than others, and indeed some are designed purel
108 Falstaff : The world will be much safer if we deal with the issues that cause crime because the people who are prone to violence will hurt people regardless of
109 RussianJet : I have not said or even suggested that the causes of crime shouldn't be tackled. I have said the exact opposite. However, I have also said .....and I
110 Falstaff : You and I will have to agree to disagree. Discussions like this are one of the reasons I love a.net so much. I usually hang around people with opinio
111 RussianJet : Agreed. Ideally, I would like to agree with what you stated anyway, I just fear that in a real life context there would be too many obstacles to perm
112 WunalaYann : Entirely disagree. The actual purpose of an object has everything to do with the use of it. A gun is not designed to hammer a nail down. A hammer is
113 Johns624 : Entirely disagree. They are both inanimate objects. It is what one does with them that matters. If I go to the rifle range and put .223" diameter hol
114 FlyDeltaJets87 : The "happy medium" is allow those of us who want to own a gun to own one, and for those who don't want to own one, well, they simply don't buy one. T
115 PPVRA : Just a few months ago someone posted an article about a study that called into question the correlation between gun laws and crime rates. Now this one
116 Mayor : Then how do you explain murder by knife, icepick, baseball bat, etc.? Clearly they weren't designed for that purpose but they sure are used that way.
117 Baroque : And being interested in stats you will be aware of the correlation of the drop in murder rates in most US jurisdictions with the date of introduction
118 WunalaYann : Ok. I call that bad faith but suit yourself. A gun is designed to kill and/or maim. That is its purpose. Otherwise you can use a taser, and even that
119 RussianJet : Have to agree there, even when simply considering the fact that I don't recall hearing about a kid getting hold of a hammer which as then accidentall
120 Mayor : Ah, now were talking about accidents, not crime? The situation you describe above could have been prevented by the owner of the gun, either by keepin
121 RussianJet : It is but one aspect of gun control. The point I was making was more to do with the fact that guns are for killing but hammers are not.
122 Johns624 : Then how do you explain the fact that the great majority of guns are never used to kill anything, either human or animal?
123 RussianJet : I'm guessing because, fortunately, the situation doesn't usually arise where that might happen. Anyway, if you have a gun and even claim it is just f
124 WunalaYann : And I think this is the core of the issue. Purpose/design versus accidental use. And following the line of thought of those who consider hammers or i
125 Mayor : And finally you see the absurdity of the anti-gun argument. Even tho those a/c were used to kill, it would be absurd to outlaw them. The same holds t
126 FlyDeltaJets87 : And just as it's good to have that fire hose in case it's needed, I feel that I am justified in owning a gun and keeping it in my house, in case it i
127 Johns624 : It's simple. Because we can! Can't you get it through your head that a free citizen should be allowed to own a firearm as long as they don't do anyth
128 WunalaYann : Worry not about what goes through my head and what does not. I suggest you three take a deep breath, and find a post from me where I say that you sho
129 Fr8mech : I have been paying attention and wonder why you would want to deprive yourself of the right to arm yourself in the face of possible violence? That's
130 WunalaYann : Because I trust my fellow citizens enough to understand that the risks of me getting assaulted are simply negligible, whereas the risks involved by w
131 FlyDeltaJets87 : Why don't you read what you wrote: You still said: I countered with the fact that the vast majority of many safety systems are never used, such as 0-
132 Cptkrell : Well, once again, violent crimes via firearms are in a slight decline in US communities when (anti) gun laws are being abolished and firearm ownership
133 Johns624 : You're contradicting yourself. First you say that you don't need a gun because you trust your fellow citizens. Then you say that you don't trust them
134 Post contains links Wingman : This link was the first that popped up in Google. The US really doesn't keep great company but 23 countries rank worse. In N.A. and Western Europe how
135 Johns624 : Because, with registration, the government can seize all firearms on a whim.
136 RussianJet : Except rather than kill people, the hose will most likely just save people - as that's the difference in their design purpose (unless you're Lieutena
137 WunalaYann : And again, we have a different view on the role of the design and purpose in the whole issue. Unless you can prove that an oxygen mask is designed to
138 Baroque : Must be Roe v Wade again I suppose??? Not so much that as perhaps a definition of the kind of society in which it is preferable to live. Just so, Win
139 Fr8Mech : I wouldn't trust the later either, they are, by definition, criminals in your country. But let's expand the focus. What if you lived in the US? Would
140 Baroque : Care to enlighten us further. One of my first encounters with US government official views was taking a tour of the FBI headquarters in Washington. I
141 Wingman : Shaking indeed. If the government hasn't taken our transportation (or guns) in the past 240 years, why would they start now? That's nothing but a bril
142 Seb146 : Possibly because the 13 Colonies had gotten fed up with quartering soldiers against their will and being told they MUST do this or that because that
143 Fr8Mech : The first 10 amedments (Bill of Rights) restrain the government against the individual. Why restrain an entity you trust. But that's a totally differ
144 WunalaYann : I do not live in the US and, at this stage, see no way I would in the foreseeable future. I have been to the US for extended stays (counted in months
145 Cptkrell : Jeeze...how tiring (again). The reason for murders and crimes and rape and burglaries (etc.) is basically because of "those" people and nobody wants t
146 FlyDeltaJets87 : What is wrong with something being designed to kill? There are times when killing is appropriate and necessary, so having something that's effective
147 WunalaYann : I understand all your points. I am still trying to see where exactly I have said US gun laws were not appropriate in the US. I have clearly specified
148 Post contains links Baroque : Ah, I understand where you are coming from now. Have you read Paine. Or better yet listen to the Mark Steel lecture on Thomas Paine The Torrent downl
149 RussianJet : Maybe it's just me, but personally I've never liked killing. Always thought it was a bit, well, wrong I guess.
150 Johns624 : Indiscriminate killing? Yes, it's wrong. Killing to save yours or someone else's life? NO!!
151 RussianJet : Killing is always wrong. Sometimes it may be the lesser of two evils though.
152 Johns624 : Not if it's to save your life.
153 FlyDeltaJets87 : That was why I brought up the point about how the gun laws in one part of the US can be very different from those just across the river. The codes ar
154 RussianJet : Even then. It might in some circumstances possibly be deemed 'necessary' but killing is still always wrong.
155 Johns624 : Not really. All people buying a gun from a Federally licensed dealer must undergo the same FBI (NICS) background check. Also, you must be a resident
156 Flighty : This may be true, but you need to control for everything else. If Washington DC were the size of Texas, and they had free access to guns, it would be
157 Post contains links Starbuk7 : Here is a pretty interesting article for those who are against owning and carrying a gun and that tout that strict gun laws curb gun crimes. http://ww
158 FlyDeltaJets87 : I think it was Larry the Cable guy who said "If guns kill people, I should be able to blame misspellings on my pencil."
159 Baroque : So can ours by referendum but IIRC out of 44 proposals, only 8 have been adopted. Mostly it is not that the electorate agrees with the existing part
160 FlyDeltaJets87 : Not counting the Bill of Rights, our Constitution has been amended 17 times. (27 if you include the Bill of Rights); the most recent amendment being
161 JJJ : There's a much bigger issue in Northern Mexico vs. the US. Most weapons used there have been legally bought in the US, then illegally shipped south.
162 Baroque : Ours have tended to be either the bleeding obvious (considering aboriginals as citizens) or relatively minor housekeeping (how to fill casual vacanci
163 Post contains links PPVRA : The latest appears to be the banning of barbed and razor wire use by the common citizens: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/barbed_wire_ban Self-defense cont
164 Triebwerk : It seems more likely that a high murder rate led to tougher gun laws than that tough gun laws contributed to a violent city.
165 Flighty : Well, using "force" here is called assault. Of course, we retain the right of self defense including lethal force. When comparing citizens to state p
166 Fr8Mech : The DC Gun Ban went into effect in the 70's. Don't you think that the violent crime rate would have gone down in 30 years if the ban were to have the
167 PPVRA : Initiation of force is assault, and you can reserve the right to self-defend all you want but it's pretty useless without the means. It's like trying
168 Post contains links PPVRA : Our military and police force has been victims of robbery. Drug gangs going after high-powered weapons. When they have to go into slums with all kind
169 Zkpilot : Yes they of course have crime... the difference is that they have much less violent crime, specifically much less gun crime. The gun crime they do ha
170 Post contains links PPVRA : http://www.nisu.flinders.edu.au/briefs/firearm_deaths_2005.pdf (see page 2) If you don't count suicides, which is a reason to buy a gun, your chances
171 JJJ : I meant to point us just how US rather lax control on firearms affects other countries providing with a steady flux of cheap, modern weapons. A hidde
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