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Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza - Part 4  
User currently offlineModerators From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 509 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 5262 times:
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Given that this topic has generated substantial discussion to date and events are still unfolding in relation to it we are initiating a 4th thread on the subject. The previous three threads are linked below;

Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza

Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 2

Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 3

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229 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineQXatFAT From Israel, joined Feb 2006, 2404 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 5240 times:

Not a great article but a pretty good one seeing the side of Israel and what they people are thinking. Israel had a good program set up for sirens to go off when rockets are in the air.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/31/wo...eeast/31israel.html?ref=middleeast

Here is a quote from the article that sums up some of our thinking here:

Quote:
Oren Idelman, 33, an investment adviser at a nearby bank, said, “I’m prepared to live like this for months, as long as the army continues this aggressive line.” The Gazans “have to understand that if we get hit, they get hit,” he said.




Don't Tread On Me!
User currently offlineFridgmus From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 1442 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 5186 times:
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This is something that HAD to be done. Hamas must be neutralized, plain and simple. No matter what they say, the Fatah Govt in the West Bank is definitely in favor of this action. And I would venture to guess some other moderate Arab governments (Egypt, Jordan perhaps?) feel the same way also.

Laugh or flame me, but a neutralized Hamas will at least lead to the Peace Process being re-started in earnest.

Just my opinion.

Happy New Year!

F



The Lockheed Super Constellation, the REAL Queen of the Skies!
User currently offlineAllstarflyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 5186 times:

Amidst all the attention given to Israel's strikes, they reportedly are and have been open to different actions from opening humanitarian aid to even ending the strikes, even though Ehud Barak claimed a fight to "the bitter end". They've been described as "open to ways of increasing humanitarian aid", "open to humanitarian truce in Gaza" and have considered a "48-hour halt to Gaza air campaign".

Amidst all this, though, Israel has said they "need assurances that Hamas would hold fire too", and the consideration for the halt also "would be with a threat to send in ground troops if the rocket fire continues." So, it looks like Israel has offered its olive branches - now it's a waiting game for Hamas to do the same.

Here's a shocker - the Wall Street Journal hoping that Israel wins - for the sake of the Palestinians - http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1230...2944538487.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Edited for grammar

[Edited 2008-12-31 02:47:52]

User currently offlineEZEIZA From Argentina, joined Aug 2004, 4963 posts, RR: 25
Reply 4, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 5173 times:



Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 3):
This is something that HAD to be done.

Correct

Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 3):
Hamas must be neutralized, plain and simple.

correct as well

Unfortunately, this action has done anything but neutralize Hamas

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 4):
Here's a shocker - the Wall Street Journal hoping that Israel wins - for the sake of the Palestinians - http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1230...s_wsj

Talk about bias!



Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
User currently offlineEZEIZA From Argentina, joined Aug 2004, 4963 posts, RR: 25
Reply 5, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 5167 times:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081231/...on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians

and here is the core of the problem, and what most of Israel's critics in this action have been saying:

"Israel said it would allow 2,000 tons of food and medical supplies to enter Gaza on Wednesday" why should Israel allow or not allow anything?

but most important:

"Most of Gaza's 1.4 million residents rely on U.N. food handouts."

you see, when something like this happen due to a ghetto-style blockade, how do you expect those people to react? When a terrorist is there recuriting people, when he says "Israel is doing this to us", is he wrong?
What's the point of these airstrikes!? they will do nothing to Hamas and kill hundreds of civilians for nothing. End the blockade, and you'll kill Hamas' recruitment speech. Stop giving them a reason!!



Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 6, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 5163 times:



Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 4):
Here's a shocker - the Wall Street Journal hoping that Israel wins - for the sake of the Palestinians - http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1230...s_wsj

Or you could get a bit closer to the action and read
http://www.haaretz.com/

Many and varied opinions including:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1051317.html

And I am sure some will enjoy the 69 at last count comments a fair few of which are effectively telling Gideon he is at best an idiot, and some appear to want to burn him at the stake. However some think he is correct

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1051356.html
Has the comment.
Hamas can rack up its first victory for its methods as several European countries are already talking about a "humanitarian" cease-fire, and Egypt has been fixed in the public eye as a collaborator with Israel. This will make it hard for Egypt to act as a mediator between Hamas and Israel, and the war in Gaza will require international involvement and certainly active Syrian involvement to end the hostilities.

In that way Gaza goes from being a local dispute between Israel and Hamas to the status of half a state with the same status as Israel, so hopes Hamas.


Well there you go, if you have a war with them, Hamas must have some status. Oh wait, they are already an elected government. So they are. And we know democracy is good. How confusing. I wonder what would happen if they were left to try and run a normal state within their borders without blockades and with normal access to trade. Oh yes, they would import the materials for rockets. That must be like their neighbours then.


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 7, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5135 times:



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 5):
a ghetto-style blockade, how do you expect those people to react?

Also:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7804113.stm
By Jeremy Bowen
Middle East editor, BBC News

Now that Israel and Hamas are in what the Israeli defence minister Ehud Barak called "war to the bitter end" let's look at some of their options.

First of all, is it really a war to the bitter end?

..
Hamas is a less conventional organisation. Its leaders realise that their reputation rests on their ideology of resistance.

The more pain they absorb, and the more they fight on, the more their stock rises among their supporters around the Middle East.

...
In wars like this the weak side knows it has no chance of defeating the strong one in a stand-up, knock-down fight.

So, it uses what it can to magnify the power that it has, and to concentrate it on what it perceives to be a soft spot.
...
But for Israel, this is about more than simply beating Hamas.

It wants also to expunge the black mark against the Israeli army's competence that has been there since it was fought to a standstill by Lebanese Hezbollah in 2006.


And there must be an argument for concluding that while Israel might feel it has damaged Hamas, Hamas might end up well pleased due to being in a stronger position. Overall, best not to start wars you cannot win. And that applies both to Hamas and Israel. But the Hamas definition of a win is far from that of its adversary and it might be easier to achieve.

Is the story of Brer Rabbit and the tarbaby not read these days in either Israel or the US?


User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10594 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 5123 times:



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 5):
When a terrorist is there recuriting people, when he says "Israel is doing this to us", is he wrong?

If he deliberately kills civilians just because they are Israeli, yes. At least with such action he is admitting to be worse than the ones he is suffering from.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 5):
they will do nothing to Hamas and kill hundreds of civilians for nothing.

200+ dead Hamas extremists, terrorists and murderers, making it the majority of the ones killed, is nothing? Surely these attacks will "give birth" to more terrorists (idiots never vanish from this earth), but how in the world should Israel let Hamas allow to commit terrorist acts without stop?


User currently offlineEZEIZA From Argentina, joined Aug 2004, 4963 posts, RR: 25
Reply 9, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 5118 times:



Quoting NA (Reply 8):
200+ dead Hamas extremists, terrorists and murderers, making it the majority of the ones killed, is nothing? Surely these attacks will "give birth" to more terrorists (idiots never vanish from this earth), but how in the world should Israel let Hamas allow to commit terrorist acts without stop?

my friend, you answered your own question. 200 Hamas members is nothing unless you get to the core of the problem. Right now, Hamas will have probably more support than ever. The way to stop terrorist groups is to get to the root of the problem.
End the blockade, give these people a reason to live for instead of a reason to blow eachother up. Hamas will stop being a solution and it will become a problem for them. In the other thread I used ETA as an example. If the Spanish govt' would isolate the basque country, wouldn't you agree ETA would be 10 times bigger than what it is now?
When people are oppressed, hopeless, hungry ... they have nothing to lose. That is the perfect condition for extremism to grow.



Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 6987 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 5112 times:



Quoting Baroque (Reply 7):
And there must be an argument for concluding that while Israel might feel it has damaged Hamas, Hamas might end up well pleased due to being in a stronger position. Overall, best not to start wars you cannot win. And that applies both to Hamas and Israel. But the Hamas definition of a win is far from that of its adversary and it might be easier to achieve.

Unfortunately, this is going to end up just like the Lebanon confilict, unfortunate because so many people have to die before the outside concerns do something concrete or those actually involved do something themselves.
Hezbollah calimed a win because it made them stronger in the Arab world, the only force to stand up to and "defeat" the Israelis
Israel lost soldiers, revealed to the world that Hezbollah did in fact have the missiles that everyone else said they did not have, busted up Lebanon and killed some fighters.

Now the reality, the UN is deployed on the border, the UN is once again enforcing its resolution that the Sheba Farms dispute is between Israel and Syria and that Syria cannot "give" the land to Lebanon to continue a conflict etc. etc. etc.

Bottom line is that the border of Israel and Lebanon is quite and both sides are now dealing with their internal issues, I look for the same thing to finally happen in Gaza, UN forces or monitors deployed on the Israel and Egyptian border and Gaza being supplied via both borders, why the locals had to die before external forces implemented such a solution should be the real nature of the debate.

Is Hezbollah now an Israel ally, NO, is Israel now a Hezbollah ally NO, does Hezbollah now recognize Israels right to exist, NO, does Israel now recognize Hezbollah as a political entity, NO, the only thing right now that the world cares about is that no fighting is taking place, unfortunate, because the reasons for the conflict remain, and will eventually re-ignite the violence, only then will it have some priority.


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 11, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 5101 times:



Quoting Par13del (Reply 10):
revealed to the world that Hezbollah did in fact have the missiles that everyone else said they did not have

Remind me who thought that. Not many I wot of. I was a bit surprised they did not turn out to have more anti aircraft missiles so less not more I would have thought closer to the matter.

It seems according to the interpretations of Hez that they won. Anything else seems to be spin. It was written again and again in the media and in a.net, that it would be almost impossible to defeat Hez and if not defeated, they win. Hence do attack them.

Likely enough a repeat performance and that is how it will end for Hamas. What ever is Israel doing in effect promoting the more extreme of Palestinian religious movements. It could end up with a move to sanctify Arafat at this rate. How long do you suppose that Abbas will last if it does come to a vote?


User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 6987 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 5094 times:



Quoting Baroque (Reply 11):
How long do you suppose that Abbas will last if it does come to a vote?

If we support democracy it is the right of a people to elect whoever they wish, the residents of Gaza elected Hamas, the Israeli peple elected their govt. what elections cannot do is to force a country to deal with their neighbours, Israel does not have to recognize and or trade with a Hamas govt. that is even more so now that they have given over the border with Egypt, if they had not done so, by default they would have had to trade with them.
Gaza is where it is, it is not now and in my research never been physically connected to the West Bank, the connection is political not geographical, so Israel does not have to give land up to connect the two, that is a matter of negotiations.

Gaza is now and has been since the Israeli withdrawal in the same unique position of Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Jordan all the countries that border Israel and were or are officially at war with them, the ability to produce / run a functioning "country / territory" free from any Israeli influence, they did not take advantage of that option and the world certainely did not attempt to push them in that direction, its unfortunate but it is the reality. The border of Gaza and Egypt is the key to an independent Hamas Govt. along with a desire to do what is in the best interest of the population of Gaza, if the population demands that their happiness and well being be linked to the wider conflict that is also fine, how they do that is the key, if by violence is whatever form - kidnapping of soldiers, rocket / mortar fire - then we will be revisiting this type of thread in the near future, if they attempt non-violent means, the future could be different, the question would then be, how many of the Hamas backers would like to see a peaceful and thriving independent Gaza versus a lightning rod in the continued conflict.

The world is tired of this, and based on the demonstrations all over pro and con, people are concerned, just not enough to offer up more concrete and viable solutions, and yes by that I mean that telling Israel right now to withdraw to the 1948 or 1967 borders is not viable in the current environment, it may be the ultimate goal but there are numerous steps to be taken before we get there, pushing for that immediately is not constructive and if suggested is only being done to essentially continue the status quo.


User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10594 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 5090 times:



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 9):
Hamas will have probably more support than ever.

If a terrorist organisation has a lot of support, its not only a sign of despair, its also a sign of how rotten the morale of such people is. A killer is a killer, I dont care about how his childhood was. Before a single dollar is spend to help terrorists, all victims of them must be addressed.

Dont get me wrong, I agree that Israels oppression of the Palestinians, especially of this tiny strip of land called Gaza, is not a glorious chapter of a people once oppressed in a far worse way, just 3 generations ago.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 9):
End the blockade, give these people a reason to live for instead of a reason to blow eachother up.

The crux is both sides have proven not to be wise. Israel would let them live better, if the Palestinians wouldnt use every possible opportunity to bring in guns instead of food. The Palestinian terrorists are the worst players in the game, they need to fall first, if you ask me. A democratic country cannot just accept the existence of terrorist organisations and even somehow reward them by treating them good.
The right idea would be Israel asking to deliver all Hamas members to be sentenced and imprisoned. But thats unreal, too much this terroristic cancer sits in the flesh of the Palestinians.


User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10594 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 5076 times:

Latest news: Analysts expect the fights to end in the next days. Ground fighting is now unlikely. (Source: Der Spiegel)
Good if true.
But is that the promised Israeli fighting to the end?


User currently offlineAllstarflyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 5070 times:



Quoting Baroque (Reply 6):

I like to keep my viewpoint from being restricted to one source. Haaertz, though being very influential, as well as described as a liberal news source - they look like the NYT of Israel - is but one source in Israel. "Closer to the action" would require getting a better all-round viewpoint . . . I wonder if Haaertz would report about Israel treating Palestinian wounded . . . and I'm glad you identified Gideon's remarks as opinion. Anyways . . .

Quoting Baroque (Reply 6):
Hamas must have some status.

They do - http://www.cfr.org/publication/8968/#1

"Hamas is the largest and most influential Palestinian militant movement."

"Since attaining power, Hamas has continued its refusal to recognize the state of Israel."

Quoting Baroque (Reply 6):
I wonder what would happen if they were left to try and run a normal state within their borders without blockades and with normal access to trade.

Hmm . . . from the structure of your paragraph, "they" can only mean "Hamas", so, to answer your query as to "what would happen if they were left to try and run a normal state", etc. - "(i)ts founding charter commits the group to the destruction of Israel."

Quoting Baroque (Reply 6):
Oh yes, they would import the materials for rockets.

To fulfill the aforementioned, why not?

Quoting Baroque (Reply 6):
That must be like their neighbours then.

Hamas readying themselves in an attitude of using only measures of self-preservation truly would be a new thing. It would do them and the world well if they were like their neighbors in continually complying with demands to restrict themselves to their own areas and not meddle in the affairs of other neighbors. How often has Hamas given back areas of land? How often has Hamas treated the wounded of the enemy they've sworn to kill? How often has had Hamas (or Hez) been forced to exercise strict measures (for example - keep prisoners in retaliation) for their own countrymen being kidnapped in an unprovoked manner? How often has Hamas had to deal with suicide bombers in their midst? I know one of the neighbors of Hamas has often been through all that and more.

Quoting Par13del (Reply 12):
Israel does not have to recognize and or trade with a Hamas govt.

But they need to remain aware that the charter of Hamas "commits the group to the destruction of Israel".


User currently offlineEmmett From Germany, joined Dec 2008, 19 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 5060 times:



Quoting Par13del (Reply 12):
Gaza is now and has been since the Israeli withdrawal in the same unique position of Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Jordan all the countries that border Israel and were or are officially at war with them, the ability to produce / run a functioning "country / territory" free from any Israeli influence

What is the factual base for such an assertion? Neither Lebanon, nor Syria, Egypt or Jordan are encircled by Israeli barbed wire. Inhabitants of Lebanon, Syria, Egypt and Jordan do not need the permission of Israeli officials to enter or leave their country. The inhabitants of Gaza are totally at the mercy of Israel in every single respect, including the right to enter and leave Gaza, supply of electricity, telephone connections and transport of merchandise. Since the occupation of Gaza by Israel in 1967, Israel deliberately prevented Gaza to become economically self-sustaining. For many years, most Gazans were used as cheap labor in Israel. Now they have neither work in Israel nor the financial means to establish industries. They are merely surviving against great odds.

Quoting Par13del (Reply 12):
The world is tired of this, and based on the demonstrations all over pro and con, people are concerned, just not enough to offer up more concrete and viable solutions, and yes by that I mean that telling Israel right now to withdraw to the 1948 or 1967 borders is not viable in the current environment, it may be the ultimate goal but there are numerous steps to be taken before we get there, pushing for that immediately is not constructive and if suggested is only being done to essentially continue the status quo.

Who is "the world" which allegedly is "tired of this"? And if the "world" is "tired of this", why is the "world" not ensuring that the people of Gaza achieve their human rights, namely to live in freedom, security and well-being, as they deserve to do? At least, the Israelis do. Why shouldn't the people of Gaza have such a right?

And what "solution" will the withdrawal of Israel be without allowing the Gazans who were expelled from Askalon and other cities and villages in Israel, to return there, in accordance with their entitlement to return to their erstwhile locations? Are Gazans sub-humans whose right to live in the town of their birth is lesser than the right of fake Jews from Leningrad or of real Jews from Ethiopia to live in the homes of expelled Arabs?

Quoting Par13del (Reply 12):
If a terrorist organisation has a lot of support, its not only a sign of despair, its also a sign of how rotten the morale of such people is. A killer is a killer, I dont care about how his childhood was. Before a single dollar is spend to help terrorists, all victims of them must be addressed.

There is a logical fallacy here. The fact that people kill suggests the existence of a problem that cannot be solved simply by punishing the killer. While punishing killers is certainly necessary, it is also necessary to prevent situations that push people to kill, such as despair and blatant injustice. In the case of the Palestinians, only justice can reduce the need to use violence. And justice is clearly lacking. It requires that the grievances of Palestinians be recognized and addressed. Until this is done, the angel of death will be relishing his daily food.

Quoting Par13del (Reply 12):
The crux is both sides have proven not to be wise. Israel would let them live better, if the Palestinians wouldnt use every possible opportunity to bring in guns instead of food.

Are you really meaning that people who are kept behind barbed wire should not fight back? Would you meekly accept the situation in which Palestinians have been placed by Israel (first expelled from your homes and then kept behind barbed wire)?


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 17, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 5038 times:

I remain convinced that the Palestinians will win in the end.

Simply because it is their cause that is just.

The cost will be dreadful - but that can't be helped.

Probably influenced in that judgment by the fact that (like Baroque) I lived through WW2 as a small child. On all the 'figures,' we in Britain in 1940 had no bloody chance at all..........

It may take 20 years yet - but, in the end, the establishment of the 'State of Israel' will eventually be seen as one of the many 'mistakes' that the world keeps on making..........

It was (and remains) a monstrous injustice. Basically punishing the Arabs for what the Germans did to the Jews.......

The sadness is that, as so often in wars, it will take hundreds of thousands - if not miillions - of lost lives to prove what has always been true.

That, in the words of the greatest American so far, "A house divided against itself cannot stand."



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineAllstarflyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 5017 times:



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 17):
I remain convinced that the Palestinians will win in the end . . . the establishment of the 'State of Israel' will eventually be seen as one of the many 'mistakes' that the world keeps on making

How do you think this will happen? Do you think that Israel will be destroyed by military intervention?


User currently offlineFlitemax From Spain, joined Aug 2007, 249 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 5012 times:

Quite intruiging to read the opinion of some outsiders on this forum. As a Palestinian, I can tell you that Israel's latest atrocities will have the opposite effect: Bolster Hamas and strengthen them in the eyes of the people and Arab streets worldwide. This is no rocket science, Hamas was waiting for this for many months, in order to fuel its ranks with new recruits and justify its stronghold in the Gaza Strip.

Of course, this is not to say that Hamas, as the legitimate elected government, is absolved of all blame. In the contrary, Hamas' doctrine is based on intolerance and an "islamic" state in all of historic Palestine. I am proud of having Christian compatriots, where would an Islamic state lead them? The long-term truce offer is also designed to ultimately destroy Jewish organized presence in Palestine.

On the other hand, we must not forget WHY Hamas came to power. The extreme corruption of the PA / Fatah was leading the Palestinian people nowhere: No jobs, favoratism, nepotism, torture. Opposition newspapers were routinely shut down and Fatah was accused of being a contractor charged with maintaining never-ending Jewish settlement expansion and occuption.

Whoever claims that Palestinians have not "appreciated" the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza and that we've responded with rockets is also disillusioned. Israel never ended its occuption of the Gaza Strip: Sea, air, and land crossings are in the hands of Israel. Gaza was and remains the largest prison in the world. Is this liberation? Was Sharon's withdrawal not a unilateral one, designed to be followed by intensified settlement activities in the West Bank?

What about the fact that Israel trippled its settlements in both population and number since 1991, when the Oslo charades were signed?

Both Hamas and Fatah are victims of their own short-sightedness and obsession with "power" (what power?), regional and international inteference from the powers that be, and of course the Zionist enterprise which continues to deny Palestinians their humanity and dignity.

In light of this the ONLY solution remains peaceful resistance and the reconstitution of the Palestine Liberation Organization. Only the PLO can salvage what remains the of the just Palestinian cause, the recovery of our lands including East Jerusalem, and the repatriation/rehabilitation of Palestinian refugees everywhere. The PLO needs new blood. Old, tired, and compromised figures such as Abbas, Qureia, Ereikat, etc. must be removed and replaced by envisioned Palestinian professionals/politicians who will immediately seek to reinstate Palestinian unity worldwide. The window of opportunity for these people will not be the negotiations path in 5-star hotels in Geneva but grassroot movements on the ground.


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 20, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 5007 times:



Quoting Emmett (Reply 16):
Emmett From Germany, Reply 16, p

Thanks Emmett, nice to have another view. Apparently if you assert that Gaza is free long enough, it must become true even if the Gazans have no control over any of their borders.

Quoting Emmett (Reply 16):
Quoting Par13del (Reply 12):
If a terrorist organisation has a lot of support, its not only a sign of despair, its also a sign of how rotten the morale of such people is. A killer is a killer, I dont care about how his childhood was. Before a single dollar is spend to help terrorists, all victims of them must be addressed.

There is a logical fallacy here. The fact that people kill suggests the existence of a problem that cannot be solved simply by punishing the killer.

Indeed, and that line of thinking makes one wonder what Jimmy Carter was doing talking to M Begin. Remember you cannot negotiate with terrorists. Funny how fashions change.

But I like the concept of all victims of terrorism being compensated. Yep agree with that.


User currently offlineAllstarflyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 4994 times:



Quoting Flitemax (Reply 19):
I can tell you that Israel's latest atrocities will have the opposite effect

Israel has shown to be a quick study in the past. Hamas may win some little battles, but their war w/Israel is still a failure - they haven't, nor likely in the near future at least, will have the ability to destroy Israel - a root cause of their being. Hez may have won some psychological edge, but Israel is still at their doorstep anytime Hez wants to start more trouble.


User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 6987 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 4987 times:



Quoting Emmett (Reply 16):
What is the factual base for such an assertion? Neither Lebanon, nor Syria, Egypt or Jordan are encircled by Israeli barbed wire.

Last I checked, Gaza has a border with Egypt which is controlled by Egypt with some stipulations on the supplies that can enter, we did see the holes blown in the border fence earlier this year and there were only Palestinians and Egyptians around, no Israelis, I assumed that to be true and not fiction.

Quoting Emmett (Reply 16):
Who is "the world" which allegedly is "tired of this"?

Read the numerous threads and see the amount of frustration expressed the world over, I call that tired, I do not subscribe to the notion that this is what the world wants to see.

Quoting Emmett (Reply 16):
Quoting Par13del (Reply 12):
If a terrorist organisation has a lot of support, its not only a sign of despair, its also a sign of how rotten the morale of such people is. A killer is a killer, I dont care about how his childhood was. Before a single dollar is spend to help terrorists, all victims of them must be addressed

Suggest you re-read reply 12, you are quoting the wrong person, your quote is reply 13.

Quoting Emmett (Reply 16):
Quoting Par13del (Reply 12):
The crux is both sides have proven not to be wise. Israel would let them live better, if the Palestinians wouldnt use every possible opportunity to bring in guns instead of food.

Wrong person quoted, you are replying to reply 13.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 20):
Quoting Emmett (Reply 16):
Quoting Par13del (Reply 12):
If a terrorist organisation has a lot of support, its not only a sign of despair, its also a sign of how rotten the morale of such people is. A killer is a killer, I dont care about how his childhood was. Before a single dollar is spend to help terrorists, all victims of them must be addressed.

There is a logical fallacy here. The fact that people kill suggests the existence of a problem that cannot be solved simply by punishing the killer.

Wrong user quoted, you are replying to reply 12.


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 23, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 4977 times:



Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 18):
How do you think this will happen? Do you think that Israel will be destroyed by military intervention?

Israel practices extreme forms of racial and religious prejudice, Allstarflier.

Such regimes have always caused huge numbers of unnecessary deaths. It's no exaggeration to say that the Israelis (their governments, anyway) are the Nazis of the modern age.

Spent a fair proportion of my life 'preparing to fight regimes' that stood for maintaining political and religious intolerance. Israel is just the latest in a long line. Thankfully, I'm so bloody old nowadays that they'd be raving mad to draft me........

But I'm very confident that 'Israel' will quite soon be seen as yet another 'mistake.'

Thankfully, nowadays, that's what eventually happens to ALL regimes that practice racial and religious prejudice. The only question is how long it takes in each individual case..........



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 24, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 4975 times:



Quoting Flitemax (Reply 19):
On the other hand, we must not forget WHY Hamas came to power. The extreme corruption of the PA / Fatah was leading the Palestinian people nowhere: No jobs, favoratism, nepotism, torture. Opposition newspapers were routinely shut down and Fatah was accused of being a contractor charged with maintaining never-ending Jewish settlement expansion and occupation.

Whoever claims that Palestinians have not "appreciated" the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza and that we've responded with rockets is also disillusioned. Israel never ended its occupation of the Gaza Strip: Sea, air, and land crossings are in the hands of Israel. Gaza was and remains the largest prison in the world. Is this liberation? Was Sharon's withdrawal not a unilateral one, designed to be followed by intensified settlement activities in the West Bank?

Thanks for an informed view Flitemax.

Quoting Flitemax (Reply 19):
Old, tired, and compromised figures such as Abbas, Qureia, Ereikat, etc. must be removed and replaced by envisioned Palestinian professionals/politicians who will immediately seek to reinstate Palestinian unity worldwide.

And one has to wonder if a remarkably high proportion of the most suitable are not located in Israeli jails. Usually the British managed to locate and lock up the most likely to be effective as an independent government. Is there a Palestinian version of JB (jailed by the British) perhaps JI worn with pride by some Palestinians? Many in early Israeli governments had the JB qualification.

The sad thing is that Abbas receives such uncritical comment in the western media. What about H Ashrawi?


25 JFK69 : What other areas or regimes would you consider "Mistakes"?
26 Falcon84 : Bingo. And, it should be added, "the more pain they add to the Palestinian people", then continue. The one constant over the last 60 years of this co
27 Allstarflyer : If so, they're not alone there . . . I'm sure someday we'll see what the differences will be between actual results and your foresight . . . Though,
28 Post contains links Emmett : Do you suggest that the BBC is wrong when saying that Israel imposed a "blockade" on Gaza and closed all borders? See: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/mid
29 NAV20 : Israel stands for total 'supremacy' for a single religious faith. Even to the point that a Palestinian who marries an Israeli is denied a resident vi
30 Par13del : BBC also posted the conflict at the Rafah crossing where an Egyptian border officer was killed when residents were attempting to flee into Egypt and
31 Falcon84 : Neither is advocating genocide, which, in effect, is what you're calling a "just" cause. is that what you're advocationg? The destruction of Israel,
32 NIKV69 : That is not the reason though, Hamas as sell as Iran and Al Qaida etc want Isreal gone. Period. It has nothing to do with how Palestine is living or
33 NA : The Palestinians must live in a better condition in future, agreed. A complete "victory" in the sense of Hamas is a horrible thought of almost Hitler
34 Falcon84 : That would be al Qaeda, Hamas, etc. Those that NAV supports, apparently-those with a "just" cause. Their goal, freely stated, NAV is the destruction
35 Thorben : The whole thing is another failure for Olmert. What did he gain? Nothing. Killed 400 people, even if there were Hamas members among them, the organiz
36 JFK69 : One is free to practice religion openly in Israel....Any religion. There are a few countries in the world where this is not true, so with that said y
37 Falcon84 : I think you underestimate Israel's resolve in this matter. It may be what you desire, but I think, if it happens, it won't even be a contest.
38 AGM100 : No it wont , that threat is empty and useless... they hate Israel end of story. Again I say , when I see one protest of the random morter fire across
39 Par13del : Well look at Lebanon border today after the recent conflict with Hezbollah, unfortunately, so many had to die and so much destruction before the worl
40 Falcon84 : This much is certain: Israel deserves to keep their nation. And the Palestinians deserve a nation. Anything that does not start with that in the basis
41 WN700Driver : Without getting too involved in all this, that assertion is way off base, factually speaking. Israel is not only the most secular country in the ME i
42 EZEIZA : correct, but low morale is another fuel for terrorists recruitment We all agree there, that terrorists are the worst players, but not the Palestinian
43 EZEIZA : now that's something I expect most of us to agree to. But by creating more hatred, no side will end up believing that the other deserves to exist
44 Flitemax : Israel in its present form cannot exist from a legal / ethical point of view. This principal is not only enshrined by extermists (Hamas, Jihad, etc.)
45 WN700Driver : A Jew is a Jew, convert or otherwise. Ethiopian Jews are welcome as well, not just white eastern europeans or americans. Same goes for your side, as
46 AGM100 : Personaly I like your clarity , It is healthy for enemies to be clear with each other. You and I are enemies . I understand that now adays most do no
47 Emmett : Most persecutions of Jews occurred historically in Christian lands. Jews found always refuge in Islamic societies. Islam considers Judaism as a holy
48 Allstarflyer : By what legal standard? They were created with the blessing of the superpowers of the time, plus the recognition of a particular international body,
49 Acheron : Well, I guess we finally agree on something.
50 NA : I fully agree with you here, and I´m sure most Israelis do, too. So you agree upon a bleak future of your people. Face it, Israel will not vanish. W
51 Emmett : The first author makes "peace" conditional upon quite legitimate and reasonable demands. These demands are firmly within the framework of internation
52 Allstarflyer : From Ahmedinejad to Hamas and others, there are some Arabs who would delight in the bloody downfall of Israel - have you ever heard such a statement
53 NA : Every poor person wants to go to the richest country possible. The more so if you have relatives there. Nothing surprising. So? Only a few believed H
54 NA : I´m off to the New Years party now. Everybody have a peaceful year, and we wont witness a "bloody" topic like this in 2009!
55 Flitemax : I reiterate - we have chosen this course many decades ago: We will NEVER recognize Israel in its present, racist, "jewish-only" state form. The reaso
56 Emmett : There are two issues here that apparently are mixed up: (a) Recognizing a state; and (b) recognizing the right of existence of a state. Egypt, Turkey
57 Emmett : Am I to understand that you attribute to Palestinians genocidal intent towards Jews? Apparently you have never lived among Palestinians, who are amon
58 Par13del : Is this taking place in a Jewish State - Israel - or an Arab / Muslim State, I know it takes place in countries not controlled by either side, India
59 EZEIZA : It's a two way street there. They both feel the same against eachother. Believe me if all the neighbours would want Israel to be destroyed, they woul
60 RJpieces : How do you feel about Saudi Arabia? And what is this ultimate price?
61 Jutes85 : What are you talking about? The Arabs already tried to destroy Israel numerous times through countless wars. It's obvious that in today's world, if a
62 Cairo : There are about 1.5m Palestinians in Gaza, which is around 600 000 households or families. My suggestion is pay each of these families USD$25,000 / ye
63 Post contains links QXatFAT : All Arab states would not be opposed to a downfall of Israel. Not a once. I really enjoy this quote: "If the Arabs (Muslims) put down their weapons t
64 Viaggiare : Assuming ownership by right of conquest is illegitimate, then neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians are entitled to that territory. Having said t
65 Alessandro : You get the impression that both parties have slowed down the fighting, but it´s due to the rainy weather nothing else.
66 Flitemax : I would like to bring to your attention the 2006 war in which Israel's only "accomplishment" was the brutal killing of over 1,000 civilians. Effectiv
67 Jutes85 : Of course over 1000 civilians were killed, Hezbollah liked to setup rocket pads in heavily populated areas. In a modern war, not pathetic gorilla tac
68 JFK69 : OK, lets get those Arab princes to open their checkbook and send money towards Gaza instead of buying another 380 for their fleet. I don't think you
69 Post contains links NAV20 : I simply said that 'Israel' cannot survive in its present form, Falcon84. That should be obvious to anyone. Both Israel and what is left of Palestine
70 JFK69 : " target=_blank>http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=HMyjywN-8Ac I just threw up from that BS propaganda.
71 Post contains links Jutes85 : A ground invasion is sure to happen very soon. http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/0...ternational_us_palestinians_israel
72 Viaggiare : Just like that, huh? To say this is unrealistic would be an understatement.
73 Post contains links and images Jacobin777 : That's a very accurate representation of what's happening. Rights, freedoms, a roof over the head and bread/water on the table is what 99% of the Pal
74 Post contains links NAV20 : Perfectly true, Jacobin777 - more's the pity.......... "Aneesa’s problem stems from a new law passed by the Israeli Knesset in July which prohibits
75 Post contains links Baroque : I had missed that gem, although a similar intent was made clear on many occasions. However, first know thine enemy Hamas are not a very pleasant orga
76 Mortyman : Because there is a distinct lack of leadership in this world.
77 Mortyman : It can be discussed wether it was Hamas that actually broke the ceasefire. As Israeli specialforces was already on mission across the border in Novemb
78 Thorben : What I desire or not, or what you think I desire, is neither important to this thread nor to the situation on the ground. The IDF was defeated in Leb
79 LXA333 : The last thing Israel wants to do is to anger the islamic community which includes Turkey and pretty much Israel doesn't want that since that pretty m
80 Allstarflyer : That's a convenient dismissal of the common element shared amongst those who would try to eliminate Israel - fear. An expansionist-minded nation migh
81 RussianJet : Having only heard about that fiasco in passing and not being familiar with the details, what evidence is available to make the claim that the purchas
82 Post contains links Baroque : That is a whole other thread, but I suppose you did look at that link with the history of the area over the last few thousand years. Just which bit o
83 Allstarflyer : And, originally in these threads about Gaza, the issue was primarily "who was there 1st". So, yeah, I love that map - very informative. Sure, bring i
84 Emmett : I WONDER whether it is possible to obtain a CONSENSUS among the members of this forum on the following BASIC PRINCIPLES and urge everyone of you to st
85 Par13del : The assumption being that the truce was actually implemented. Rocket fire continued in small numbers, I guess it was regarded as a nuisance so never
86 Post contains links Baroque : As always, Wiki is there to help http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish#Genetic_studies_of_DNA Overall, it appears that Jewish populations showed relati
87 Allstarflyer : You're starting with the fallacy that mankind is basically good in nature and would care to adhere to this. Wishful thinking. We have all that pretty
88 Baroque : Que? Care to explain the logic behind the comment. We could always start a new thread to examine how the US judicial system is assessed world wide to
89 Par13del : It was essentially an observation force, suggest you check what the UNIFIL force mandate was, it deployment area's and compare it against the force m
90 HAWK21M : Wonder if the Middle East will ever be peacefull. regds MEL
91 Par13del : I will not address any specific principal that you list, because I think it is more important how you and your country got to them, in my mind that i
92 NA : Of cause I do not attribute to any genocidal intent. I am answering views like "We do not accept the existence of the State of Israel, and never will
93 Emmett : A historical and a political analysis of a situation, as you propose, is always important and has been widely undertaken with respect to Palestine. W
94 Post contains links and images Allstarflyer : First of all, you're sourcing Wikipedia . . .    This thread was enjoyable reading (and, later, this thread) - and you had your share of participati
95 Windy95 : ENcircled by Israel and their fellow Muslims with the Egyptian border See the Egyptian border. They can cross it anytome the Egyptians let them Who "
96 Allstarflyer : Sure - do you have a better overall system you would care to apply to the original remarks posted by Emmett? An honest critical mind wouldn't paint t
97 Allstarflyer : To clarify my remarks, as someone showed interest concerning them . . . I have no opposition to said "principle" - I simply don't believe people in ge
98 NA : Well said basically. As much as I would like a peaceful solution, both sides stubbornly keep on defending their biblical "an eye for an eye" policy.
99 Windy95 : Makes me wonder as well. Well said NA
100 NA : Thats the crux, its wishful thinking of us saturated westerners not living under the realities there. The current Palestinian president and his polic
101 EZEIZA : Yes. What you say happens, but you fail to mention everything else Israel has been doing. Ahain, its not only weapons that kill. Which is exactly why
102 NA : Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 101): Which is exactly why this type of attack is useless to a terrorist infrastructure. Letting terrorists in freedom is not th
103 Emmett : Dogs who bark do not necessarily bite. While Arabs are sadly notorious for their "radical words", they have not been very effective in the killing ga
104 RussianJet : That is quite possibly the most sensible thing written in all four threads so far.
105 NA : I hope so, and mostly it is so. But of someone who keeps barking for decades I´m not so sure of. I wouldnt call terroristic actions just "barking" a
106 EZEIZA : Ok, I'm going to try to clarify because obviously I'm not getting through here ... Terrorists have to be crushed. We all agree on that. What I am say
107 WN700Driver : And capitulating would accomplish... You need to understand that these fools can't even be properly called terrorists. They issue no demands, just st
108 RussianJet : I don't think anyone has been defending the firing of rockets by Hamas.
109 EZEIZA : I never said capitulating. I said using another approach. Don't bomb the living hell out of them knowing the civilian deaths are going to be terribly
110 Bok269 : From what I remember, the DP World issue was due to the UAE being implicated in the 9/11 report as having ties to al Qaeda. There was most likely an
111 NAV20 : Allstarflyer, of COURSE they have a 'direct national heritage.' They've lived there for many centuries. But it's different for most Israelis. Being J
112 Post contains links and images StasisLAX : "Israeli officials say that Hamas has also acquired dozens of Iranian-made Fajr-3 missiles with an even longer range. Many fear that as the group acqu
113 Baroque : And alternatively Allstar, if they do not originate from the Palestine/Israel area, just where did they come from? Their DNA says that is where they
114 Post contains links QANTAS077 : unfortunately most people commenting have no idea that there is a difference between the two. Torah following Jews renounce Zionism and the existence
115 Allstarflyer : Don't go so excited just because I brought evidence into the mix. The Jews were driven out by the Babylonians, then later during and after the Roman
116 Post contains links Baroque : Correction, they are clearly not Irsaeli lands, they are lands. The geneticists seem to prefer the Levant. Fine by me. Two lines of evidence. A. The
117 Post contains images NAV20 : How about I introduce some FACT - as opposed to mere 'evidence' - Allstarflier?   Your profile doesn't reveal which part of the USA you live in. But
118 JFK69 : I was waiting for someone to bring up the Niturei Karta. They are a rogue group for the most part which most Jews think are nuts and do not recognize
119 Par13del : Not to hijack your discussion, but your scenarios also pose an interesting question, there is no fighting in these area's which were stolen, bought o
120 Windy95 : But at what point to do you start or stop?? We could all go back to our original starting positions and would Europe and Africa be very crowded. This
121 Post contains links Baroque : I beg your pardon? ??? Is there a problem with the plot shown in: http://www.pnas.org/content/97/12/6769/F2.expansion It is a variety of similarity /
122 Post contains links Allstarflyer : Baroque, before we go further, how is any critically-minded person supposed to take you seriously when you make remarks such as this (italics mine) .
123 Thorben : Regardless of heritage and DNA and old empires, I still believe that everybody who lived there before 1948 and their descendants have every right to l
124 Allstarflyer : Depends - if the noose tightens (by sea, by all land points outside of Egypt) - Israel may mass eliminate their militant opponents - if so, I hope th
125 QXatFAT : Dont forget the Assyrians. The Northern 10 Tribes were taken into captivity by the Assyrians before the Babylonians. Jerusalem was only taken captive
126 Post contains links Windy95 : Correction. I missed a word. Blood from the Arabian Peninsula and of the Turks (Malmukes) mixed in with the "palestinian". The early ancestors of som
127 EZEIZA : Hopefully I am wrong, but a useless loss of life. I hope that only terrorists are killed (which btw, aren't they in a civilized society entitled to t
128 Allstarflyer : Nice catch.
129 Jutes85 : Civilians will ultimately die, that's unfortunately unavoidable in such a populated area with the terrorists hiding among/in the population. Hamas do
130 QXatFAT : Just making sure all the diasporas were catched
131 Mortyman : According to Norwegian commentators and experts, Israel will try and avoid a ground battle in the longest. This is because a ground attack is a whole
132 Emmett : Is anyone on this list participating in any peace-promoting activities for the Holy Land (Palestine/Israel)? Is anyone here compassionate about the fu
133 Post contains links Jacobin777 : Here's something of interest...by a Rabbi no less. "Massive bombings of the sort that have thus far killed over 400 Palestinians and wounded 1,000 oth
134 Knightsofmalta : I think you fail to see the whole point, this is all about politics, not religion. Unfortunately, selling arms to Israel is too lucrative a business
135 Post contains links Baroque : I take your point Emmett. As often, Moir in the SMH has a succinct summary of the situation: http://www.smh.com.au/cartoons/ If it has flicked to the
136 Post contains links OA260 : Quite true. -------------------------------- Nice to see an Israeli based action group against the attacks on innocent Palestinian civillians. http:/
137 EZEIZA : But of course, Israel is simply defending itself, with strategic targetting on Hamas alone
138 Post contains links OA260 : It was heartening to see what Dubai did on New Years Eve. DUBAI, United Arab Emirates: Dubai's ruler has ordered the cancellation of all New Year's c
139 Allstarflyer : There has to be a next step, though, if Israel is going to go through with this as Ehud promised "to the bitter end". If they clamp down on the area
140 Post contains links NAV20 : Couldn't agree more, in principle, Par13del. But in fact, everyone else 'lived happily ever after' - but not most of the Indians. They mostly died. U
141 Baroque : Exactly the point of Moir's cartoon. Pardon the phrase, but this is not rocket science. Not to the Palestinians and not to the Israelis. At present,
142 EZEIZA : Exactly. Someone obviously has an interest in not solving the problem, because this approach, as I have said 10,000 times, and as NAV20 and yourself
143 Windy95 : Instead of building huge towers and indoor ski slopes in the desert maybe they should ship some food across the open Egyptian border that the the Ara
144 NAV20 : Couldn't agree more. Any Israeli politician who offers the Palestinians and Israel's other neighbours anything more than bombs and machine-gun fire a
145 Post contains links OA260 : Demonstrations against the atrocities in many towns and cities in Ireland today. The Irish have a good record for supporting what is right and what is
146 Windy95 : And who sells them to the rest of the Arab nations surrounding Israel? Part of keeping the peace between Egypt, Israel and Jordan is keeping all thre
147 Windy95 : How about free Israel. Stop the slaughter and terrorism and recognize her as a state???? It is hard to have a siege on gaza when they have an open bo
148 EZEIZA : And none of this would be needed if Israel would end its opression. Just think about it, everyone living more or less peacfuly, with a very small and
149 Post contains links OA260 : Free Israel from its government. ------------- Thousands across UK protest against Gaza bombings Up to 20,000 people are expected to march along Lond
150 Mortyman : I am glad to see that others also have come to this conclusion.
151 Bok269 : I'll pose this question again: Where were the protestors marching against Gaza's continued rocket attacks on Israel's southern cities?
152 Post contains links Allstarflyer : Sure I do. Let me help you out . . . Translation - "The bitterness caused by Israel's attacks on the militants will cause vast numbers of Gaza reside
153 RussianJet : What is the actual relevance of this question to the rights or wrongs of the current Gaza crisis?
154 Post contains links Baroque : Sad but what else is there to conclude. Again back to the carrot and stick analogy. Plenty of stick but not much in the way of carrots. An excellent
155 Post contains links Jacobin777 : It's a shame indeed and it shouldn't be that way. The ironic part is the violent so-called "Muslims" aren't being blamed for just being violent thugs
156 EZEIZA : First of all, is that really the point? What Israel is doing is wrong, and protests (non violent) are welcome. And there have been many anti terroris
157 Post contains links and images Jacobin777 : "Israel has now carried out more than 700 strikes on Gaza since launching the offensive a week ago, the AFP news agency says." On a land 25 miles x 4
158 Falcon84 : Reading that-I don't know what to say about that. Palestinians have never had a NATION, so how can they have a "national heritage"? And, I think I be
159 Jacobin777 : Your comments don't stand up to scrutiny.
160 Falcon84 : Red Flag it all you want, Jacobin, but Israel wasn't the one to declare war in 1948, the Arabs were. And they haven't changed one bit in all those yea
161 Jacobin777 : Why don't answer my queries Falcon84 (hence the red flags.)?..How about addressing them. Maybe you simply don't have an answer for them as you have c
162 EZEIZA : No one should support Hamas and their methods, but is it really that different than what the Israeli military does? Falcon, please read below Is this
163 Post contains links OA260 : Israeli forces hit Gaza from land, sea and air, stepping up their offensive against Hamas in the Palestinian enclave as tanks and troops waited on the
164 FreequentFlier : Yes, Israel is so racist it allows Arabs to be elected in its Knesset and work throughout the country, including thousands of Palestinians. The same
165 Mortyman : Palestinian radio is reporting that Israel has started it's ground operations.
166 FreequentFlier : A good question with a simple answer: they weren't. None of them have Israel's interest in mind at all. Many would be happy to see it disappear. Isra
167 Mortyman : 2500 people was demonstrating in front of the Israeli embassy in Oslo today.
168 Mortyman : Tye Norwegian foreign minister this evening commented on George Bush radio adress today and the fact that he layed all the blame on Hamas for the curr
169 EZEIZA : I just got the CNN news alert on my email saying ground troops have begun to move in ...
170 Solarix : The solution to the problem is single secular state. They need to destroy all of the mosques, churches, synagogues, praying walls, etc. and completely
171 EZEIZA : Possibly, but IMHO, this has nothing to do with religion, so erradicate religion would just mean they have to find another excuse.
172 Post contains links FreequentFlier : Actually the situation is pretty simple. Israel vacated Gaza, uprooting its own settlers there and forgoing land with the expectation of at least som
173 Solarix : It has everything to do with religion. What makes fighting over this little strip of desert so important and worthwhile other than false religious bel
174 Post contains links OA260 : Israel accused of downplaying food crisis Israel was last night accused of downplaying the humanitarian suffering in Gaza in order to justify continui
175 EZEIZA : By imposing a blockade on Gaza? I'm sure they were so happy when they found out they are not allowed to have basic needs. You said it yourself, "fals
176 Post contains links QXatFAT : Thank you Falcon for actually sticking to real history and not assumed history. And if Palistine had an embassy somewhere in the world, I am sure the
177 Post contains links OA260 : Propaganda war: trusting what we see? Israel has tried to take the initiative in the propaganda war over Gaza but, in one important instance, its vers
178 EZEIZA : If Palestine, as a soverign state does something the same way as Israel is doing now, I'd thing protesters will be weel deserved. What's important he
179 Post contains links OA260 : Nearly one year on and the World still fails Gaza :: Palestinians suffer as the world fails Gaza Talking is not enough to halt the colonisation of the
180 FreequentFlier : From the article you posted, a very telling admission: "For the people of Rafah, the wall has been an ever-present reminder of Israeli power and the
181 Post contains links OA260 : Gaza is a prison ----------------- Gaza Prison: Freedom of Movement to and from the Gaza Strip on the Eve of the Disengagement Plan For the past four
182 Jacobin777 : Nothing more needs to be said.. .....
183 Windy95 : No terrorism is firing thousands of rockets without warnings. From sixty years of targeted destruction by the friendly ME neighborhood that they have
184 Post contains links Emmett : Here some sane Israeli writing from Tel Aviv: GIDEON LEVY / The IAF, bullies of the clear blue skies By Gideon Levy, Ha’aretz 31.12.2008 http://www.
185 OA260 : Some foreigners were allowed to leave yesterday. Families had to make the choice to leave their children and their husbands/wives or face being kille
186 Windy95 : What about the border with their muslim allies in Egypt in which they share a border with. Instaed of building tunnels and rockets maybe they should
187 Post contains links Thorben : The ground-war has started. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1052299.html http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...st/2009/01/200913194452527102.html
188 Windy95 : How about checking Arafats wife's savings account. I am sure it is still flush with cash Are not Hamas and Hezbollah sub contractors for Syria and Ir
189 Windy95 : With an open border wiith Egypt??
190 F9Animal : This whole thing is a tragedy. Obviously Hamas does not seek peace, and this will always be a disaster unfolding. I feel for the innocent civilians lo
191 Emmett : I urge you all to participate in demonstrations and letter-writing aimed at stopping the carnage in Gaza. Those who keep silent today as Israel is ent
192 Thorben : There is no open border to Egypt. Land and sea ways are blocked, the airport is destroyed (not that it matters, as the air space is blocked, too.)
193 Post contains links Windy95 : Hamas has long prepared for Israel's invasion, digging tunnels and rigging some areas with explosives. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_israel_palestinia
194 Windy95 : So why is there no open border with their fellow Arab and Muslim neighbor?? Are there Israeli troops and tanks on that border keeping it closed. Or i
195 Windy95 : Did you also urge this while the thousands of rockets where being launched at Israel???
196 QXatFAT : Yes that would be a success for me as well. Something we agree on. They have showed this over the years. They already have success in this. Hamas has
197 Emmett : No, although I do not think that these rockets are a very effective strategy to defeat the Zionist State (I think peace and open borders would much m
198 Post contains links QANTAS077 : how very one-sided of you. http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/i...86.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1
199 Mortyman : Yes,Norway was the only western country to aknowledge the Hamas regime as democraticly ellected in 2006.
200 Post contains links OA260 : I would have today but I had to be at my office. -------------------------------- Celebrities have joined human rights campaigners to call on US Pres
201 QXatFAT : Absolutly not. Anyone who can stick it to the big dog will always be supported by many. Your exactly right, thats what you think. You dont know what
202 Jacobin777 : 158:1 ratio (10:1 is a staggering amount)....talk about lopsided... I defense of Emmett, he probably knows more than anyone here.[Edited 2009-01-03 1
203 RussianJet : Seeing as the poster referred to here has stated that he considers peace and not rockets to be the way forward, there cannot possibly be any value in
204 Mortyman : Norwegian commentators says that even though Israel has managed to kill some Hamas leaders, the comando lines is still intact. They still manage to la
205 EZEIZA : It would amaze me if it weren't for the fact that both sides (their military or militia) don't want peace The Israeli military is of course powerful,
206 EZEIZA : and growing
207 OA260 : So all that has been done is they have killed a few important Hamas leaders and within a few hours they will be replaced by someone else. And so on a
208 OA260 : With regards to Arab leaders and people attacking them for not doing anything , what can they do ? Unless they all get together and combine forces to
209 QXatFAT : I am guessing this was retorical. Because I am still electing to not answer some of these questions when mine are not. Not attacking you EZEIZA but s
210 Mortyman : No unfortunetly, Israel is only increasing the number of terrorists by doing what they are doing. The Israeli / Palestinian conflict is a thorn in th
211 OA260 : Palestinians and Muslims around the world will ask themselves who supported and funded these weapons . Then it will be a problem for the USA and Israe
212 N867DA : After reading a few of the posts in here, I guess I'll take down my Give Peace A Chance poster and take a deep sigh.
213 Par13del : One gets the impression that the US was already the enemy after they supported the creation of Israel, supporting the Shah of Iran, Sadaam against th
214 Post contains links Jacobin777 : More random killing of innocent civilians.. "he shells could not have fallen at a worse time. Today's afternoon prayers in the northern Gaza town of B
215 OA260 : Yes but there comes a point when you can change your policies and start to try to correct wrongs done in the past. If you keep making the same mistak
216 OA260 : Im not normally a Guardian reader but I have to say their coverage on this humanitarian man made disaster is spot on . Kudos to the Guardian Newspape
217 StasisLAX : The world needs to demand an immediate complete cease-fire in Gaza with a large multi-national U.N. force of peacekeepers to ensure the cease-fire wil
218 Solarix : The Middle East has always hated the United States. It did not start with George Dubya Bush.
219 OA260 : At least someone is talking sense. I totally agree. Problem is who will step up to the job? Israel would probably do what it wants anyway with or wit
220 QXatFAT : I agree with you on part. One is that they feel they can now talk some with a new President but I would not say we have a clean slate by any means. H
221 Post contains links OA260 : UN Boss Condemns Israel Invasion UN Secretary General Ban Ki Moon has urged Israel to halt its ground offensive against Hamas targets in the Gaza Stri
222 Post contains links QANTAS077 : makes no difference, the US always veto's UNSC resolutions when it comes to Israel, so the statement from the SG is is worthless. amazing that Israel
223 OA260 : Unless it suits them of course for their own pockets. Maybe they should set up a new UN based on new powers with big military might and only admit th
224 Post contains links QXatFAT : Seems like they have called up some reserves (tens of thousands) to be ready in case Hezbollah or the West Bank decides to join in the conflict. http
225 QXatFAT : Yeah Russia and China have already taken over. Then you must also take away Russia and Chinas vote. Its a two way street. The United States isnt the
226 OA260 : As I said Majority international opinions rule. Majority wins , thats democracy. No veto for anyone. Only way to get things done. Split Israel into t
227 Mortyman : This thread is getting long. Can a moderator start thread nr. 5...
228 Jacobin777 : I read it once in a while. .. Me too! Save leveling Gaza, this pathetic current U.S. Govt. will always veto anything and everything mentioned about I
229 Post contains links Moderators : Please continue the discussion here: Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 5.
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