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Big Controversy Over "Burning Jesus"  
User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4318 posts, RR: 11
Posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2018 times:

As 2009 comes in a few hours, this year there will many celebrations and parties in cities and towns all over Argentina. In some cities there are particular or peculiar traditions.

One of them La Plata, where there is a longtime tradition of neighbors getting together to create large, even elaborate, sculptures, sometimes running well into the thousands of $. Planning for these begins almost a year before in some cases, around February. Then on Dec 31, the sculptures and artworks are placed in street corners all over the city. One of them will be this one:



Within a few hours, as the city fireworks show reaches it's height, this entire representation of Jesus Christ and the Disciples on the Last Supper will be nothing but a heap of ashes, just as all the other works of art destined to this peculiar celebration of large bond fires to bring in the new year. It will burn to the ground in a huge fire.

Of course, this particular case has created a lot of controversy, even protests by some neighbors in the area. They have even petitioned city hall to prohibit it's burning in public, and flyers have been distributed all over the area urging people to boycott watching the burning if the authorities do not intervene to stop it. La Plata authorities have already said the work has been inspected and fulfills regulations and safety guidelines, so that there are no grounds to ban it, and said they certainly will not intervene on a basis that could be construed as limiting freedom of expression.

Critics point out that if a figure of Abraham, Moses, or of Muhammad or Buddha was burned, the INADI (the government's anti-discrimination commission), would ''certainly not allow such a display. It's only because it is a Catholic and Christian scene that nothing is done'', a neighbor opposing the sculpture said.

So, is this offensive or is it freedom of expression? Any Christians and non-Christian here care to give any thoughts? My belief is freedom of speech. And yes, that includes burning flags, and figures of religious motives, including Jewish, Islamic, Eastern or whatever religion, or non-religious too.

Of course I personally would never do it and find this particular case and other incidents like it ridiculous, but can't say I would prohibit it.


My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSingapore_Air From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13745 posts, RR: 19
Reply 1, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1992 times:

As a Catholic, it is offensive and it is freedom of expression. They'll just probably go to hell in the afterlife or at least some purgatory.


Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4318 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1982 times:

I can understand that. I'm not a practicing religious person, but I have to say when those opposed say that if it was another religious figure the one being burned it would create far more sensitivity from the authorities, they are probably right.

Perhaps it's the fact that in pluralistic societies there is a pattern or undercurrent that states the minority must be protected from the majority, and that the majority needs no protection. I could be wrong though.



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlineQXatFAT From Israel, joined Feb 2006, 2405 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1954 times:



Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
Any Christians and non-Christian here care to give any thoughts?

As a practicing and sold out Christian...

I do find this very offensive. Does it change the fact that they can do it? No, they have the freedom to express what they would like. What I would potition or beg for is that they do it the privacy of their back yard or somewhere else and not out in public. This would be for my sake and probably for others.

As said earlyer, this does offend me but I can not stop them. Only government.



Don't Tread On Me!
User currently offlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17147 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1946 times:

As a christian I find this also very very offensive. This shouldnt be allowed at all. Okay I know about freedom and all of that, but still there is a limit somewhere.


Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlinePlanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6441 posts, RR: 34
Reply 5, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1921 times:

Does the burning of these figures affect your relationship with your god?


Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineEZEIZA From Argentina, joined Aug 2004, 4968 posts, RR: 25
Reply 6, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1910 times:

As a christian, I honestly don't care. They can do what they want with it. It's not like their forcing me -or anyone else- to participate. Not allowing this would make us radicals, just like the nutjobs that called upon a holy war when those cartoons came up offending the Muslim religion.


Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8965 posts, RR: 24
Reply 7, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1901 times:

I don't know the motivation behind the exercise. It does not appear to me to be intended as a slight or attack on Christianity. It's simply a tradition of building (apparently with a lot of love and expense) these representations, and at the end of the Christmas season, you mark the event by burning the whole thing.

As a Catholic, personally I see no problem with it. Kinda strange, but that seems to be they way they choose to honor the holiday.

It is very different than if it was meant as an attack or an insult. If someone put together some cheap rag figurines and set them alight as a protest against Christianity (or any other faith) then I would say that is offensive.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17147 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1901 times:



Quoting Planemaker (Reply 5):
Does the burning of these figures affect your relationship with your god?

Well then you can ask the same to the muslims when the cartoons came up.



Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlineLowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 1878 times:



Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
So, is this offensive or is it freedom of expression?

It is both.

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
Critics point out that if a figure of Abraham, Moses, or of Muhammad or Buddha was burned, the INADI (the government's anti-discrimination commission), would ''certainly not allow such a display.

I would certainly like to see a test case.

It seems that Christianity and similar faiths (Mormonism) are among the last safe things to be publicly mocked, derided, or degraded. Usually the worst abuse comes from those who clamor the loudest for tolerance and acceptance.



Proud OOTSK member
User currently offlineQXatFAT From Israel, joined Feb 2006, 2405 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 1852 times:



Quoting Planemaker (Reply 5):
Does the burning of these figures affect your relationship with your god?

No it does not. But that does not mean that I can not be offended by it.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 6):
Not allowing this would make us radicals

That is true. That is why they can do it and if I had my way, I would ask them to please not make it a public display just out of curtisy.

If you want to take it to the extream, Christians that were burned at the stake, thrown into lion pits, crucified, etc. etc. etc. and there were not over thrown governments or radicals brought up because of it. Persecution is persecution. Not an act for war or a killing spree. Things like the burning of this statue to persectution of death is never seen as an act for some war in Scripture.



Don't Tread On Me!
User currently offlinePSA53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3093 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 1808 times:

An exhibition by simple minds, who as usual, feel threaten by those who don't.I agree with those who said that it is really an exhibition of non-tolerant extremists individuals.  redflag 


Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
User currently offlinePlanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6441 posts, RR: 34
Reply 12, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 1789 times:



Quoting B747forever (Reply 8):
Well then you can ask the same to the muslims when the cartoons came up.

I did!

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 10):
No it does not. But that does not mean that I can not be offended by it.

So why should you be offended. What is not offensive to you is offensive to someone else... such as burning a cow.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineLowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 1780 times:



Quoting Planemaker (Reply 12):
So why should you be offended. What is not offensive to you is offensive to someone else... such as burning a cow.

That statement makes no sense. So what is offensive to one should only be determined after consultation with others? He should no longer have the freedom of his own thoughts?



Proud OOTSK member
User currently offlinePlanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6441 posts, RR: 34
Reply 14, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1736 times:



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 13):
That statement makes no sense. So what is offensive to one should only be determined after consultation with others? He should no longer have the freedom of his own thoughts?

It makes perfect sense... I am merely pointing out that it is all relative - especially where religion is concerned. And I didn't mention anything about freedom of thoughts!



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineLowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1726 times:



Quoting Planemaker (Reply 14):
It makes perfect sense... I am merely pointing out that it is all relative - especially where religion is concerned. And I didn't mention anything about freedom of thoughts!

No, but according to your earlier statement, he should not be offended.

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 12):
So why should you be offended.

Telling someone they should not be offended is telling them how to think on a subject.

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 12):
What is not offensive to you is offensive to someone else... such as burning a cow.

According to this, he should measure what is acceptable by the standard that others use.

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 14):
I am merely pointing out that it is all relative

No, it is not. And such a philosophy taken to its ultimate ends is self defeating and futile.



Proud OOTSK member
User currently offlinePlanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6441 posts, RR: 34
Reply 16, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1708 times:



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 15):
No, but according to your earlier statement, he should not be offended.

Regarding his relationship with God.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 15):
Telling someone they should not be offended is telling them how to think on a subject.

Expressing an opinion is not telling him how to think.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 15):
According to this, he should measure what is acceptable by the standard that others use.

Standards are different all around the US... let alone all around the world. That is a fact.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 15):
No, it is not. And such a philosophy taken to its ultimate ends is self defeating and futile.

In your opinion.  Big grin



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8508 posts, RR: 12
Reply 17, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 1697 times:

Hmmm....I don't think this is offensive and I'm a Christian. If people want to go to the effort and expense to create such a large representation of The Last Supper and then burn it, why should Christians be upset about it?

User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4318 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1622 times:

The local newspaper El Dia has lots of pictures of the dozens of works that were burned last night. Even Troy burned again!



I can't find one of the Last Supper yet. Last I heard, a lawyer might get involved in suing the city, arguing the burnings take place in a taxpayer zone (the city sreets), which are lit and paved by public money, therefore the taxpayers offended by this had their rights violated, since he says they street will be cleaned up by city workers... payed for by, the public.

That's in theory a reasonable argument, but there are many times when religious symbols are also placed in the public street (nativities, crosses, minorahs), so another lawyer could come in and claim the city is sanctioning those religions. That's why I don't think such a case, even if it went to a court, would win. Not a lawyer though!



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlineQXatFAT From Israel, joined Feb 2006, 2405 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1592 times:



Quoting Planemaker (Reply 12):
So why should you be offended.

I can be offended by anything of my choosing. If it goes against my morals and standards, I have every right to be offended. I dont have the right to go hurt him because I am offended though. Planemaker, I am sure you are offended by things so your comment is kind of irronious.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 15):
Telling someone they should not be offended is telling them how to think on a subject.

 checkmark 

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 16):
Standards are different all around the US... let alone all around the world. That is a fact.

So would it not make sense then, based upon your comment here, that peoples standards also produce convictions and things which cause someone to be offended. If your standard is not met, you could just be offended.

Fact: People get offended
Not A Fact: People dont get offended



Don't Tread On Me!
User currently offlineYYZatcboy From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1093 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1584 times:
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My feelings:

The 11th Commandment "Thou shall keep your religion to yourself!"

Be offended if you want to, Burn it if you want to, but keep it all private.



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User currently offlinePlanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6441 posts, RR: 34
Reply 21, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1545 times:



Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 19):
Quoting Planemaker (Reply 12):
So why should you be offended.

I can be offended by anything of my choosing

Please do not be selective and distort my point. If you quote me... please quote me completely so my statement is in context.  Smile



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineQXatFAT From Israel, joined Feb 2006, 2405 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1542 times:



Quoting Planemaker (Reply 21):
Please do not be selective and distort my point. If you quote me... please quote me completely so my statement is in context

Kept in perfect context.  Smile



Don't Tread On Me!
User currently offlinePlanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6441 posts, RR: 34
Reply 23, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1526 times:



Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 22):
Kept in perfect context.

Not so... unless you quote the full quote it isn't in context.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3555 posts, RR: 17
Reply 24, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1517 times:
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Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 6):
Not allowing this would make us radicals, just like the nutjobs that called upon a holy war when those cartoons came up offending the Muslim religion.

I am not defending those crazy people,but there is a difference between the two.One is meant as a celebration the other was meant as an insult to a religion.Big difference.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
25 EZEIZA : Correct 100%, but the point remains in not being extremists. Even if it were intended as an offensive celebration, it is only offensive if you allow
26 SOBHI51 : Correct.But celebration can be taken both ways.Fun and or Offensive.But calling both my Prophet and my religion terrorist and other insults can only
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