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So Much For Relaxed Scandinavian Sexual Attitudes  
User currently offlineMham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3659 posts, RR: 3
Posted (5 years 9 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5042 times:

I'm a little intrigued about the trend to charge as crimes deeds done abroad that may be legal there.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7806760.stm

A new law has come into force in Norway making the purchase of sex illegal.

Norwegian citizens caught paying for prostitutes at home or abroad could face a hefty fine or a six-month prison sentence, authorities say.

The tough new measures go further than similar ones introduced by other Scandinavian countries such as Sweden and Finland.

Norwegian police have been authorised to use wire-tapping devices to gather evidence.

61 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDoona From Sweden, joined Feb 2005, 3771 posts, RR: 13
Reply 1, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days ago) and read 4903 times:

Yes, we're all quite the prudes over here. On the other hand, the state television here can show clips from Deep Throat in a documentary (and yes, the actual DT shot) and not get sued or fined.

Cheers
Mats



Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13120 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days ago) and read 4884 times:

The issue isn't so much about being 'prudes', but recognizing the many serious issues as to prositution, especialy for those selling thier bodies. Such policies discourage the 'sex trades' with far too many women exploited in inhumane ways.

User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7704 posts, RR: 21
Reply 3, posted (5 years 9 months 3 days ago) and read 4880 times:
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I don't think it's reasonable to equate strict laws on prostitution with an unrelaxed attitude to sex. Basically, sexual relations and prostitution are entirely different matters. In my view, it is completely right to do away with prostitution, as although there may be some exceptions, generally it is exploitative, immoral and often linked intrinsically with other aspects of criminality.


✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineQantasistheway From Australia, joined May 2008, 309 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4848 times:



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 2):
The issue isn't so much about being 'prudes', but recognizing the many serious issues as to prositution, especialy for those selling thier bodies. Such policies discourage the 'sex trades' with far too many women exploited in inhumane ways.

Well, yes these people are selling their bodies but putting a ban on this will most likely not stop a lot of the activity. However, if prostitution is allowed and can then be controlled, this then means that borthels are the only apporved workplace for prostitutes which then stops the pimps exploiting prostitutes etc. People are gonna seel themselves, if they are allowed to or not won't stop this. However if these prostitutes are then doing it in a reasonably "safe" environment, it can spare the pain that they would otherwise go through. Germany works along these lines, and I think it's fairly reasonable.


User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7275 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4827 times:

So the intelligent brains behind making prostitution legal in these Europen countries in the first place never had a clue or could not forsee the further exploitation that would be the result, or did they just assume that their countries had enough females who wanted to make money selling their bodies for sex?

It would make interesting reading to review the discussions that took place years ago to see what those opposed had to say and what logic those in favour offered to support the plan, history is our best teacher, unfortunately, those who do not study it are doomed to repeat its failures. Here's an idea, legal prostitutes could only be citizens born in the country, tighten up the passport laws may be cheaper than trying to watch who comes across your open borders, which were opened up to allow free trade between EU members, guess human trading was not expected.


User currently offlineAverageUser From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4798 times:

The BBC's news is in error regarding Finland. According to the recent changes in the law, prostitution is only illegal here in the case of human trafficking. Pimping is and has been illegal as well as advertising for paid sex. Free-lancing remains legal, a win of common sense over the feminist hardliners.

User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3954 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4782 times:

Unfortunetly Oslo, the capitok of Norway has in the last few years had a serious problem with prostitutes coming from Nigeria and estern Europe. The numbers have just been staggering, simply because Norway had had a relaxed law compared to the rest of Europe. The prostitutes has come in huge wawes to Norway and especially Oslo where they earn better money that many other places.

Since there is'nt an official " red light district " in Oslo the prostitutes has been offering their business on the main shopping street to the annoyens of localresidents and tourists alike.

Some of the Nigerian prostitutes has been offering their services all the way down to 6 USD.


So Norwegian politicians has been under alot of pressure to do soemthing about the problem and has come up with this new law that is just one part of a much bigger renewal of the law, regarding sex trafficking, prostitution, child porn etc.


Many Norwegians are sceptical to the solution that the politicians has come up with.


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13218 posts, RR: 77
Reply 8, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4705 times:

I see no correlation in laws about prostitution and how 'prudish' or not a society generally is.
For example, prostitution thrived at levels quite unthinkable now, in the Britain of the Victorian era (often seen as the high watermark of repressive attitudes in our history).
Only beaten by WW2 - the blackout, lots of abandoned sites, women left to fend for themselves and a lot of men who think they might be dead soon.
Britain was not a very liberal society then either.

Prostitution is as much about people's economic conditions than sexual attitudes and like the poor, it's always been with us.

Mortyman pointed out that many seem to come from places like Africa and the poorer parts of Eastern Europe, not unlike here.
Most 'natives' on the game are not doing it through choice either.
(As we saw two years ago with the stories behind the 6 prostitutes murdered in England by one man, all lived short, chaotic, unhappy lives. Hard drugs, broken homes and probably abuse all loomed large for this tragic girls).

A much better way of perhaps reading how relaxed a society is about sex, is in the levels of STD's, unwanted pregnancies, the depth and availability of both family planning and general sexual health advice.

Here, the Anglo Saxons should bow their heads in shame.
Because both the UK and the USA are very poor in these areas, in the US it's made worse by fanatics imposing thier ideas, with little regard to real life.
Both nations seem still to have real problems in proper education and attitudes that can often combine prurience and prudishness.

The Scandinavians do a lot better on the health, education and unwanted pregnancies.
This has an economic factor too, with a much lower proportion of those in the biggest risk groups, in other words, the bottom of the heap.

I would rate the UK as now more relaxed about sex than the US, but not like many of our Europeans neighbors.
But that's nothing to shout about, since the fruits of a more grown up attitude, as seen in places like Scandinavia, are not properly realized here.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7704 posts, RR: 21
Reply 9, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4684 times:
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Quoting GDB (Reply 8):
Prostitution is as much about people's economic conditions than sexual attitudes and like the poor, it's always been with us.

It has indeed always been with us, often referred to the world's oldest profession. However, the nature of prostitution has changed in modern times, with the nasty rise of large-scale human trafficking for prostitution. Controlling of prostitutes has also been around since almost forever, but the tricking and forcing of vulnerable adults into being trafficked to other countries for sexual exploitation has increased so much, that I consider it to be necessary to legislate strongly against all prostitution. It is just too awful and, unfortunately, too real.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineAndaman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4640 times:



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 2):
The issue isn't so much about being 'prudes', but recognizing the many serious issues as to prositution

Exactly.

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 6):
Free-lancing remains legal, a win of common sense over the feminist hardliners.

It's more complicated than 'feminist hardliners against free-lancing', also in Finland... most of the prostitutes are from poorer countries, in Finland from Russia, the business is organized in most cases, linked to organized crime like everywhere else.


User currently offlineJFK69 From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1419 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 4574 times:



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 3):
generally it is exploitative, immoral and often linked intrinsically with other aspects of criminality.

Not if its regulated, then it is extremely safe and a great money maker for the state when it is taxed.


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8964 posts, RR: 39
Reply 12, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 4564 times:



Quoting Doona (Reply 1):
Yes, we're all quite the prudes over here. On the other hand, the state television here can show clips from Deep Throat in a documentary (and yes, the actual DT shot) and not get sued or fined.

What about non-state televisions?



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7704 posts, RR: 21
Reply 13, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 4557 times:
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Quoting JFK69 (Reply 11):
Not if its regulated, then it is extremely safe and a great money maker for the state when it is taxed.

Maybe, but I don't think it's worth risking even one person being forced into sexual slavery by not legislating hard against all forms of prostitution and making it anything less than 100% unacceptable. People should not think it is ok to buy women, in any circumstances. Regulated or safe or whatever, I still think prostitution in all forms is immoral anyway.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineAverageUser From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 4557 times:



Quoting Andaman (Reply 10):
linked to organized crime like everywhere else.

If you say it's "complicated" I'm sure you are familiar with more aspects than the "international crime" aspect, then? Will the doctoral thesis of Anna Kontula ring any bells?
HS on her: http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Ann...ehalf+of+sex+workers/1135239299483

Her thesis: http://acta.uta.fi/pdf/978-951-44-7579-5.pdf (in Finnish)
http://www.annakontula.net/english-exodus.html (English summary)


User currently offlineMham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3659 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 4538 times:

I am surprised nobody has commented on a governments desire to control its citizens outside of its borders.
If a Norwegian man goes to a brothel in Germany, is this grounds to use wiretaps to charge and convict him to a 6 month jail sentence?

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 6):
The BBC's news is in error regarding Finland. According to the recent changes in the law, prostitution is only illegal here in the case of human trafficking. Pimping is and has been illegal as well as advertising for paid sex. Free-lancing remains legal, a win of common sense over the feminist hardliners.

This confuses me since they are going specifically after the johns with this action. How exactly would the customer determine if the woman is trafficked or free-lance? And how would that criteria be determined while the man is overseas?


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7704 posts, RR: 21
Reply 16, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 4524 times:
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Quoting Mham001 (Reply 15):
How exactly would the customer determine if the woman is trafficked or free-lance?

If that is really such an impossible thing to determine then I would suggest it speaks volumes about whether or not one should be embarking upon such behaviour in the first place.

Quoting Mham001 (Reply 15):
I am surprised nobody has commented on a governments desire to control its citizens outside of its borders.
If a Norwegian man goes to a brothel in Germany, is this grounds to use wiretaps to charge and convict him to a 6 month jail sentence?

It is a difficult area and poses many moral questions. One part of me says this principle is grossly unfair. On the other hand, just because it is easier to get away with a despicable act in one particular country, that should not mean that someone should be able to get away with it. I am not sure where wiretaps come into the equation though, is there some specific reference to this I am not aware of, or was this just added for effect?



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8964 posts, RR: 39
Reply 17, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4481 times:

And how do you justify imposing your differing opinions on others through forceful (read: legislative) means?

[Edited 2009-01-01 14:43:05]


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7704 posts, RR: 21
Reply 18, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4474 times:
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Quoting PPVRA (Reply 17):
And how do you justify imposing your differing opinions on others through forceful means?

That's a very wide philosophical and ethical question. Could you perhaps narrow it down a bit and give us a clue as to what exactly you are asking about and in what context? In the broadest interpretation of that question, I would say that this is the nature of the beast when it comes to law making - moral and behavioural standards are imposed on us all by law in an effort to try and prevent harm to others as far as possible, or at least that is the theory.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3954 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4474 times:



Quoting Mham001 (Reply 15):
I am surprised nobody has commented on a governments desire to control its citizens outside of its borders.
If a Norwegian man goes to a brothel in Germany, is this grounds to use wiretaps to charge and convict him to a 6 month jail sentence?

Most Norwegians think the Norwegian police will have a hard time charging the person buying sex in another country. The Norwegian police basically has to ask the foreign country police to arrest the person, wich is questionable considering that other countries often more relaxed laws about prostitution and may not want to bother doing it.


User currently offlineAndaman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4463 times:



Quoting JFK69 (Reply 11):
Not if its regulated, then it is extremely safe and a great money maker for the state when it is taxed.[/quot

Where this ideal world exists, in Nevada? ,)

[quote=AverageUser,reply=14]Will the doctoral thesis of Anna Kontula ring any bells?

Yes I know her thesis, as I said this issue is complicated, with many aspects.

Ok let say prostitution can be a job like any other.
If we had these 'extremely safe' circumstances for regulated prostitution, would it be ok to you if your own sister or daughter would get the job? We don't like double standards, do we?


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8964 posts, RR: 39
Reply 21, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 4412 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 18):

That's a very wide philosophical and ethical question. Could you perhaps narrow it down a bit and give us a clue as to what exactly you are asking about and in what context? In the broadest interpretation of that question, I would say that this is the nature of the beast when it comes to law making - moral and behavioural standards are imposed on us all by law in an effort to try and prevent harm to others as far as possible, or at least that is the theory.

The non-aggression principle is what I am getting at. It basically holds that the initiation of physical force against another person or his/her property is illegitimate, and it also includes fraud, and vandalism. Force used in self-defense in response to aggression is the only legitimate use of force. In other words, the ends do not justify the means. Prohibition of prostitution would require the use of force to enforce this law.

The NAP is best exemplified IMO by the following quote by John Stuart Mill:

"The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others."

Thus, a person who accepts money for sex is perfectly within their rights as long as s/he does not harm another person. The same applies to the customer. As long as it remains a voluntary action between two people, then there is nothing wrong with it. Assuming there was no coercion of any kind involved, of course.

[Edited 2009-01-01 15:49:26]


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7704 posts, RR: 21
Reply 22, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 4400 times:
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Quoting PPVRA (Reply 21):
a person who accepts money for sex is perfectly within their rights as long as s/he does not harm another person. The same applies to the customer. As long as it remains a voluntary action between two people, then there is nothing wrong with it. Assuming there was no coercion of any kind involved, of course.

Understood. However, I think it is fair to say that prostitution as a whole is so tainted with coercion, crime, drugs etc, that it is reasonable to outlaw it. The justification for this is in protecting the victims of trafficking, sexual violence, etc.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineJFK69 From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1419 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 4361 times:



Quoting Andaman (Reply 20):
If we had these 'extremely safe' circumstances for regulated prostitution, would it be ok to you if your own sister or daughter would get the job? We don't like double standards, do we?

Of course no one would be happy if their daughter or sister ended up like that, but we wouldn't be happy if they were in porno or stripping for that matter, and these are 2 LEGAL occupations. If that is what my relative wanted to do though then I ma talk them out of it and accept it if thats what they choose. I may do the same if my child would tell me they are homosexual. I may not agree with it but I would accept it.


User currently offlineAndaman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4344 times:



Quoting JFK69 (Reply 23):
these are 2 LEGAL occupations

Also prostitution itself is legal as well, in Finland and many other places, thats not the point.
I just don't like the double standars if thinking goes: 'prostitution can be ok job - but NOT for my daughter and for the other good girls...'
Ok job for who? Foreigners?

I don't get what homosexuality has to do with this issue, it's not a choice.


25 JFK69 : I am not going to get into that since I disagree. Some people may have double standards but I don't see it that way and those who do are hypocrites,
26 Andaman : No no... I'm pleased it's legal in my country, thats the way it should be in the free world. But unfortunately it's not a easy free-lancer career for
27 Mham001 : Yes it is an impossible thing for a john to know. What exactly should he do, drive up and ask if she is trafficked? How would the police determine, g
28 JFK69 : My bad...we are cool.
29 Post contains links AverageUser : That's a good question, and in fact the first sentences have been given. According to the ruling the two men who bought sex from a young Estonian wom
30 Andaman : All right, if dad honestly says he would be ok if his daughter chooses prostitution for a career, then absolutely no double standards there! And mom
31 RussianJet : Right, which is the point I was getting at earlier - given that it is nigh impossible to know, if you choose then to use prostitutes you are effectiv
32 JFK69 : Truth be told there are probably many illegal immigrants who are hard workers at newsstands, restaraunts, day laborer jobs who were brought here thro
33 RussianJet : Which merely serves to expose the incredibly base morals of such an individual. It's not that simple. These kind of people are often assisted in ille
34 GDB : At least going for the customers might be a step in the right direction. Remember, the majority of customers are those married or in a serious relatio
35 LTBEWR : The proposed policy of this country in question to go after those that may see prostitutes outside the country may be those that go to places to have
36 PPVRA : The same is said of gambling, for example. And alcohol. Still, it's not right to spoil it for everyone just because some people have turned to crime.
37 RussianJet : Which we already have controls on. If it even in some tiny way helps prevent someone falling into sexual slavery and being beaten and raped every day
38 PPVRA : When alcohol was banned, we ended up with more trouble than when it was open and legal. I think prostitution is one of those areas in which the pract
39 RussianJet : If in this case 'the individual' refers to the prostitute, then I can't agree. As already explained, there are huge problems with trafficking, coerci
40 MBMBOS : Will you please cite your sources that identify this as a "huge" problem? Anecdotal stories don't qualify. I'd like to see some hard statistics from
41 PPVRA : Crimes need to be dealt with individually. You didn't understand what I said. If a person decides to sell his or her body, it's up to them and no one
42 RussianJet : Not necessarily. Some things, such as drugs and prostitution, can impact on other people too, whether initially meant to or not. In the case of hard
43 PPVRA : And the prohibition of these has not ended the impact on other people's lives. Under alcohol prohibition we ended up far worse off, and I'm sure this
44 RussianJet : That is certainly true, but alcohol and drugs are for another thread. You have some very good points, but I guess I just can't agree. In my experienc
45 PPVRA : I agree with that. Sad, but true. Agreed.
46 MBMBOS : So you've never been a prostitute or a john, and you fail to cite any facts; what, then, is your "experience" based on? The reference to prohibition
47 RussianJet : Hell no. Professional experience of the worst aspects of what has been discussed, which there is no way in I am at liberty or willing to go into here
48 MBMBOS : So you're saying you have special insight into this issue and we should therefore accept your authority on this topic without revealing what you know
49 RussianJet : No, I'm saying my experiences have formed my opinions. It's up to you to agree with them or not, honestly that doesn't interest me. I can only give m
50 AverageUser : I think you may have noticed that in our egalitarian society at least Moms and Dads are unable to control the professional carees of their kids. Natu
51 RussianJet : Funny, never heard of that one.
52 Post contains links AverageUser : Without too much digging I found this article: http://www.timeshighereducation.co.u...sp?storyCode=176609§ioncode=26 I don't know if this was the
53 RussianJet : Interesting, but although the 'phenomenon' may exist I do not think this is widespread.
54 KiwiRob : That's how it now works in New Zealand, apart from some protestors from religious nutters the legalisation on prostitution in NZ has been a success.
55 RussianJet : You misunderstand. I am fully aware that, as in most countries, Russia has prostitutes, high-class and otherwise. I was referring to the alleged 'pop
56 SKAirbus : Hmmm well i am gay and homosexuality isn't something i chose.. it is just who i am.. i can't help being attracted to men.. Thank god Denmark has a fa
57 AverageUser : So we may conclude with confidence that this type of high-class prostitutional activity has little or no appeal to ordinary young females in Russia (
58 RussianJet : It is my experience that, in spite of the stereotypes and prejudices, the vast majority of Russian females do not want to be prostitutes at all; high
59 Post contains links AverageUser : Sipping a glass of white wine in a central Moscow cafe, [TV late night hostess Anfisa] Chekhova says the 1990s may have raised the curtain on sex, bu
60 RussianJet : I think what we can probably conclude is that one article backed up with no meaningful research is no reason to presume that girls want to become who
61 AverageUser : Evidence would have to be anecdotal, is there's apparently no proper research. I feel this is a somewhat sensitive issue. By the way I'm not assuming
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