Yellowstone From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3071 posts, RR: 4 Posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3358 times:
Just heard about this news story today, so it's a few days old. (BART, for those of you who don't know, is the rapid transit system in the San Francisco Bay Area). The original news story:
Quote: (01-01) 18:41 PST -- A young man allegedly involved in a fight aboard a BART train was shot to death by a BART police officer on the platform of the Fruitvale Station early New Year's Day, in the midst of a brawl between two groups of young train passengers. Oscar Grant, 22, was shot once while on the platform after a BART officer drew his gun during what officials called a volatile and chaotic scene. A gravely wounded Grant was taken to Highland Hospital, where he died Thursday morning, the Alameda County coroner's office said.
Quote: (01-05) 22:30 PST PST Oakland -- Five days have passed since a BART police officer shot and killed an unarmed rider on a station platform, but the officer has not given a statement to investigators about what happened and the transit agency has apparently not forced him to do so.
The delay comes as witnesses emerge with their accounts of what happened, some with video footage of the incident recorded on cellular phones. The hold-up is one reason why BART officials - even in the face of public outcry - have said little publicly about the shooting, including whether they believe it was justified.
BART has not released the officer's name, but The Chronicle has learned that the officer is two-year BART police veteran Johannes Mehserle, who turned 27 on Monday and whose first child was born within a day or two of the shooting - an event that may be a contributing factor to why Mehserle has not yet explained the shooting to investigators.
For those of you who don't want to watch, it shows the officers moving Grant from a sitting position to lying facedown on the station platform. A brief, minor struggle ensues, but the officers subdue him and pin him to the platform. One of the officers then stands, draws his pistol, and shoots Grant once in the back.
My two cents - There's only a couple of plausible explanations I can think of here. The first one, which the second news article mentions, is that the officer meant to use his Taser (which BART police recently started using) but drew his firearm instead. The second is that he drew his firearm meaningfully, at which point the gun discharged accidentally. Either way, there was a serious failure in gun safety procedures. And it doesn't help the police's image that they haven't interviewed the officer who killed Grant yet.
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
KSYR From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3347 times:
After watching that video, things certainly don't look good for the officer. A taser would have been better suited for that situation...I just don't understand why the kid was shot. And I'm usually a pretty ardent defender of the police in these type situations. If there is no plausible explanation for the shooting I would definitely understand if some type of criminal charges were drawn up.
RussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7757 posts, RR: 21
Reply 2, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3315 times:
Quoting KSYR (Reply 1): After watching that video, things certainly don't look good for the officer. A taser would have been better suited for that situation...I just don't understand why the kid was shot. And I'm usually a pretty ardent defender of the police in these type situations. If there is no plausible explanation for the shooting I would definitely understand if some type of criminal charges were drawn up.
I don't want to prejudge or second-guess the officer's thoughts or motives, but it looks like a very difficult one to explain away. The mistaking the gun for a taser theory seems plausible, but at this stage can only be a wild guess.
Awful for all involved.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
AGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 17
Reply 4, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3160 times:
Woa ! weird stuff . I am going with the mistaken Taser explanation, I don't believe any Police officer would just cold blast a kid in broad daylight in a train station. It does not matter the cop has got to be better than that . Murder ? I don't know, but the cop is definitely off the force for good .
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
Bok269 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 2104 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3112 times:
Let's not jump to conclusions. The quality of that video is marginal at best and there could be a number of reasons as to why he hasn't given a statement yet. Let's let the investigation take its course.
Yellowstone From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3071 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3074 times:
Not terribly surprising - the officer in question has resigned from the force:
Quote: (CNN) -- The officer involved in a New Year's Day shooting that left a passenger dead in a crowded Oakland, California, subway station resigned Wednesday, a Bay Area Rapid Transit spokesman said.
Oscar Grant, 22, was killed January 1 in a shooting at a subway station in California's Bay Area.
BART spokesman Linton Johnson said in a statement that the officer's attorney and his union representative submitted the resignation at a meeting Wednesday morning with BART police investigators. The officer was going to be at the meeting but did not show up, Johnson said.
Johnboy From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 2614 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2947 times:
I found myself at the tail end of the disturbances/rioting in the middle of downtown Oakland quite by accident last night.
I woke up at around 8:00 pm and the Mr. and I drove to Oakland to grab a bite to eat, oblivious to all the "action" going on. We got off at Jackson Street, drove past Jack London Square and starting driving up from the foot of Broadway, when we suddenly noticed police officers ALL over the place.
TV news trucks were reporting from in front of Oakland Police HQ, people were milling about on the streets, a cop car right beside us sped up suddenly, put on the lights and stopped right in this busy intersection.....cops jumped out and started running after some guys.
Fire trucks, ambulances were going down the side streets....it was one of those moments where you suddenly realized this was probably one of the worst places to be at that time. Ended up at a KFC by Lake Merritt, and the manager said they had just reopened after the SWAT team had been there about 30 minutes earlier.
Tsaord From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2799 times:
Quoting Bok269 (Reply 13): Quoting DocLightning (Reply 12):
So what I want to know is why he hasn't been arrested yet.
Maybe because the investigation is ongoing and the officer is entitled to the same due process that everyone else is
And due process should be taken. I hate the fact that people are so quick to judge by their emotions. Guilty until proven innocent is the way to go people just don't want to say it out loud, but that is how people truly feel.
Par13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 8020 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2635 times:
I have not seen any tasers up close, but if it is in anyway remotely possible that a taser could be mistaken for a gun when pulled from its holster, why in the world would any security organization equip its armed officers with such a device, you are simply asking for trouble.
Lets for arguments sake say that is what happened in this case, will it be accepted by the masses, will they accept a simply reality of poor training?
This was an unfortunate incident for all involved, hopefully cooler heads will prevail and the society in general will not suffer much in the way of riots etc, trust will definately have been lost, and that will takes years to be restored, that is a fact that all will have to live with.
Dreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 9185 posts, RR: 24
Reply 18, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2617 times:
I have a 1911 Colt 45 that has a hair-trigger. If I had to guess at the trigger pressure needed to set it off, I would guess 3 or 4 ounces. WAY dangerous. That is not a gun that you keep at the ready - you'd blow your foot off within a week. I keep that one (unloaded and locked) purely for sentimental reasons, as it was my grandfather's service pistol during WWII.
Looking at the film, it looks to me like the shooter was as surprised as anyone else at the shot. He was probably bringing out his gun to cover his partner while he reached for a pair of ties or something, and the gun went off. I wonder if that pistol has the regulation trigger spring pressure.
That's not an excuse - if the gun had a hair trigger, he should have known about it and fixed it. But the fact that he immediately resigned at least shows that he feels terrible about what happened, and isn't trying to talk his way out of it, like the Rodney King cops.
DL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 74
Reply 19, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2557 times:
I think that either way, intentional or mistaken, the cop needs to be suspended and the incident investigated.
That said, the crowd wasn't being particularly helpful. They seemed to think that restraining the people fighting was unfair and were hurling obscenities at the cops.
Police ought to be well trained enough to ignore a hostile crowd, but those cops seemed busy handling the struggling arrestees who'd been fighting.
The shooter didn't look like he was flying off the handle, and the "I thought it was a taser" story seems plausible (if inexcusable).
Quoting Superfly (Reply 15): If you or I killed someone, we'd be behind bars while the investigation is going on.
Unless the shooting was apparently accidental during the course of our jobs. Even if we got processed we'd have the opportunity for bail.
Let's see what the facts are once the cop has been interviewed and it becomes apparent whether or not he made a mistake or lost it completely.
Quoting Par13del (Reply 17): I have not seen any tasers up close, but if it is in anyway remotely possible that a taser could be mistaken for a gun when pulled from its holster, why in the world would any security organization equip its armed officers with such a device, you are simply asking for trouble.
MOst departments I've seen issue tasers and have their officers carry it on the opposite side of their firearm. That way you eliminate the likelihood of the officer's muscle memory from taking over when he's reaching for a taser with his pistol hand.
Johnboy From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 2614 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (6 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2528 times:
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18): But the fact that he immediately resigned at least shows that he feels terrible about what happened, and isn't trying to talk his way out of it, like the Rodney King cops.
Or maybe it shows that he's talked to his lawyer who advised him that he has no career at this point in law enforcement anyway, and he wouldn't have to answer to BART internal affairs questioning and could concentrate on his own defense.
There is a much clearer video posted on line now...
Perhaps the guy just snapped.if that's the case it makes it murder........I want to give him the benefit of the doubt that it was a tragic accident( still guilty of killing a guy..not trying to minimize that)...but the way it is looking it is getting harder and harder...
as i was not there judgment will have to come from the trial...just giving my opinion on what was written and posted.
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
I dunno.....psychiatric reports, balistic reports, detailed testimony from all those present, and probably lots more I can't think of. I'm not for one second it doesn't look very bad, but there should be a trial, and there are reasons for that.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
They should really launch an inquiry into this particular situation. Obviously the officer who shot the man should have his day in court as well; however, it seems to me that there are probably larger issues at play that contributed to this event, whether it be to easy to confuse the firearm and a taser, or whether it be a culture within that particular police force which encourages excessive force, or whether it be inadequate checks to detect issues related to mental illness amongst officers or any number of other possible contributing factors. There are a whole variety things that could happen, and it seems that it would be helpful to examine the situation in a detached manner with no other agenda than to prevent a similar thing happening again. Something akin to how the NTSB would investigate an accident.