Sponsor Message:
Non Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Mass German W W 2 Grave Found In Poland  
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3887 times:

I saw this Associated Press report today. Very poignant and sad.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...k8r65GJEoy9LgQ8w980-x_ANQD95LO5I80

Quote:
WARSAW, Poland (AP) — Construction workers in northern Poland have unearthed a World War II-era mass grave containing what are believed to be the bodies of 1,800 German men, women and children who disappeared during the Soviet Army's march to Berlin.

Poles digging at the site of a planned luxury hotel in Malbork — which was called Marienburg and was part of Germany during the war — excavated a bomb crater at the foot of the city's famous 13th century Teutonic Knights fortress, authorities said Monday.

The workers found a small group of bodies in late October and halted digging to allow prosecutors to investigate. After resuming work weeks later, the workers turned up dozens, and then hundreds, more corpses. They believe more may be found.

It was not immediately clear how the bodies ended up in the crater but initial examinations by Polish and German experts have concluded that they are likely the remains of German citizens still classified as "missing" more than 60 years after the end of the war, town official Piotr Szwedowski told The Associated Press.

Millions of civilians were killed or declared missing during World War II. Many of those who disappeared in the chaos of wartime Europe are still unaccounted for.

"Examination of the remains and the circumstances confirm that these are the missing German inhabitants of Malbork," Szwedowski said. "I have no doubt it is them."

As the Red Army was advancing in early 1945, the inhabitants of Malbork were ordered to evacuate. Some refused, while others were prevented from doing so by the general chaos of the nearing front.

The Soviets bombarded the city with heavy artillery in their assault. After the defeated German military retreated, the remaining civilians found themselves at the mercy of Red Army troops. There are no known living witnesses of what happened, Szwedowski said.

The bodies were buried naked without any possessions, he said.

"We found no trace of any clothes, shoes, belts, glasses — not even dentures or false teeth," he said.

Some 100 skulls — primarily of adults — have bullet holes in them, suggesting these people could have been executed, but it is still unclear how the others were killed, Szwedowski said.

This sounds like a systematic execution. Are there accounts of others?

Separate, but related subject, is how are the German POW's from Stalingrad remembered in Germany? From accounts I read, almost 100,000 German soldiers went into captivity after that battle; less than 5000 returned -- many years later. Accounts of their fate vary, but from what I read, they were worked or starved to death in Stalin's gulag. Are there veterans organizations in Germany that honor these soldiers? I suspect most of them were in the army because they had to be; most were just soldiers.


"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
49 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 1, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3832 times:



Quoting Lumberton (Thread starter):
Separate, but related subject, is how are the German POW's from Stalingrad remembered in Germany?

From my experience, I haven't heard anyone talk about the Wehrmacht POWs that the Soviets took in Stalingrad. They're just mentioned as a final note when discussing the battle over that city.


User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3803 times:



Quoting Lumberton (Thread starter):
This sounds like a systematic execution. Are there accounts of others?

Yes. They did it every day at Auschwitz. In Treblinka in one year and four months they did 850,000 or more. All systematic executions.


User currently offlinePSA727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 974 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3753 times:



Quoting Lumberton (Thread starter):
This sounds like a systematic execution. Are there accounts of others?

This was quite typical for the Soviet Army as it advanced through (then) East Prussia. And also one of the main reasons the Germans fought to the bitter end throughout the streets of Berlin, they knew what awaited them at the hands of the Russians. German propoganda flims "highlighted" the atrocities commited by the Soviet Army on German civilians in the last months of the war.



fly high, pay low...Germanwings!
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9735 posts, RR: 31
Reply 4, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3746 times:



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 2):
Yes. They did it every day at Auschwitz. In Treblinka in one year and four months they did 850,000 or more. All systematic executions.

The difference between us and the Russians is that we have accepted the guilt, accepted and acknowledged our responsibility, founded a new state and democracy in 1949 with a constitution that made sure that this will never happen again, made peace with our neighbours and became founding members of the European Union in which we are deeply embedded and most important of all, did whatever we could to relieve the grief oif the jdewish people.

The first Chancellor of the new Federal Republic, Konrad Adenauer, met woith David Ben Gurion and these talks became the foundation of a new friendship with jews and Israel.



Quoting Lumberton (Thread starter):
Separate, but related subject, is how are the German POW's from Stalingrad remembered in Germany? From accounts I read, almost 100,000 German soldiers went into captivity after that battle; less than 5000 returned -- many years later. Accounts of their fate vary, but from what I read, they were worked or starved to death in Stalin's gulag. Are there veterans organizations in Germany that honor these soldiers? I suspect most of them were in the army because they had to be; most were just soldiers.

No, there is a foundation that takes care of war cemetaries and the German Red Cross took care of the missing person search over the years, but we have, for obvious reasons, nothing like a VFW. WWII is nothing for Germans to be proud of. Chancellor Adenauer went to Moscow in 1956 and succeeded to get the last German POWs home, more than 10 years after the war ended,



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7719 posts, RR: 21
Reply 5, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3703 times:



Quoting PSA727 (Reply 3):
Russians



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 4):
Russians

Soviets. The Soviet Union and Russia are not interchangable words.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3633 times:



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 4):
The difference between us and the Russians is that we have accepted the guilt, accepted and acknowledged our responsibility, founded a new state and democracy in 1949 with a constitution that made sure that this will never happen again, made peace with our neighbours and became founding members of the European Union in which we are deeply embedded and most important of all, did whatever we could to relieve the grief oif the jdewish people.

For the most part that is correct, and people of good will in your country are to be commended for their efforts, although I suspect that you could stand to read Sinclair Lewis' "It Can't Happen Here". Totalitarianism and genocide can happen anywhere at any time-good government is a matter of constant effort, study, and argument and it is never a thing that's finished and put on autopilot. Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty as we say here.

It is not as if a 30 day stay at the Betty Ford center is a sure cure for a lifetime of dissipation-it is but the beginning of a lifetime commitment to sobriety- and one might well assess the German project and say "at what cost?"

On the other hand you make a good point, and I am quite sure that the story of the Russian (or Soviet as you like) advance into Germany and the fighting and paybacks with compound interest that went on there on there is yet to be fully written-and I am sure that when that history is written it will be truly monstrous.

There is much to learn about the resettlements of ethnic Germans into the General Government during the war, and it might well be that that is who those poor souls were. I have just finished reading "Hitler's Beneficiaries" by Gotz Aly and "The Wages of Destruction" by Adam Tooze, and I commend them both to you if you have not read them yet.

The point I was making was a direct response to Lumberton's question.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7719 posts, RR: 21
Reply 7, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3623 times:



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 6):
Russian (or Soviet as you like)

Soviet is the only correct term. There was no Russian army fighting in WW2, that is a matter of fact, not opinion.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3622 times:



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 7):
Soviet is the only correct term. There was no Russian army fighting in WW2, that is a matter of fact, not opinion.

What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7719 posts, RR: 21
Reply 9, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3611 times:



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 8):
What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

In this case, a lot. We are talking about atrocities apparently carried out by the Soviet Union. It is an irritating, somewhat insulting thing that the suffering of millions of Russians, particularly under Stalin, alongside many other Soviet peoples is so often overlooked, and that people so often misrepresent the horrendous misdeeds of the Soviet Union as being those of Russians. Heck, the leader himself was not even Russian.

As usual with these matters, it was never that simple, and faliure to acknowledge such things can cause serious offence and upset. Also, whatever one thinks of this, we should strive for historical accuracy in any case and describe these things correctly.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineMoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 4087 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3604 times:



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 4):

The difference between us and the Russians is that we have accepted the guilt, accepted and acknowledged our responsibility,

The Soviets never needed to be humbled, as they were on the winning side.


User currently offlineAcheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1723 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3603 times:



Quoting PSA727 (Reply 3):
This was quite typical for the Soviet Army as it advanced through (then) East Prussia. And also one of the main reasons the Germans fought to the bitter end throughout the streets of Berlin

The germans did the same thing as they marched towards Moscow, so there isn't much of a difference.


Looking in hind sight, WWII was a disaster regarding the treatment of civilians, Dresden bombings, London Bombings, Hiroshima(save yourselves the justifications), Lidice, Kortelisy, Soviet advance into west europe, etc.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 4):
The difference between us and the Russians is that we have accepted the guilt, accepted and acknowledged our responsibility, founded a new state and democracy in 1949 with a constitution that made sure that this will never happen again

Because you were on the losing side. Had the result been the opposite, and I'm pretty sure Churchill and a load other people would have been executed as war criminals and whatnot.

"The history is written by the victors".


User currently offlineConnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 12, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3587 times:



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 6):
For the most part that is correct, and people of good will in your country are to be commended for their efforts, although I suspect that you could stand to read Sinclair Lewis' "It Can't Happen Here". Totalitarianism and genocide can happen anywhere at any time-good government is a matter of constant effort, study, and argument and it is never a thing that's finished and put on autopilot. Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty as we say here.

"It Can't Happen Here" -- one of the 10 books I'd have with me if marooned on an island. Absolutely believable, and a talisman for what could happen in America. Should be required reading in high school.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 3569 times:



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 9):
In this case, a lot. We are talking about atrocities apparently carried out by the Soviet Union. It is an irritating, somewhat insulting thing that the suffering of millions of Russians, particularly under Stalin, alongside many other Soviet peoples is so often overlooked, and that people so often misrepresent the horrendous misdeeds of the Soviet Union as being those of Russians. Heck, the leader himself was not even Russian.

Maybe you're irritated about it but the fact of the matter is, you're quibbling about terminology.
Let's split the difference and call it the armies of the USSR, wherever they came from, including a good sized contingent from Russia.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7719 posts, RR: 21
Reply 14, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 3562 times:



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 13):
but the fact of the matter is, you're quibbling about terminology.

Well, I'm not going to get into a whole thing about this, but it is far from quibbling. There is a huge factual difference and a very important distinction to be made.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 13):
including a good sized contingent from Russia.

And a great many other countries too, under a leadership comprised of people from all over the Union and led by a Georgian.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 13):
the armies of the USSR

Absolutely fine, because that is quite correct, and no different from saying 'Soviet army' or 'Red army" - all perfectly accurate.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3511 times:



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 14):
Quoting Dougloid (Reply 13):
the armies of the USSR

Absolutely fine, because that is quite correct, and no different from saying 'Soviet army' or 'Red army" - all perfectly accurate.

I think we can agree then.


User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3515 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3496 times:



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 5):
Quoting PSA727 (Reply 3):
Russians

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 4):
Russians

Soviets. The Soviet Union and Russia are not interchangable words.

Sorry but they didn't come from Mars. It's like claiming that nazis were not German. I know that it does not mean that all Russians were like that but you should accept responsibility for what happened. Starting with executions of Polish POWs in 1939 ending with executions of German civilians in 1944/45.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7719 posts, RR: 21
Reply 17, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3485 times:



Quoting Danny (Reply 16):
Sorry but they didn't come from Mars. It's like claiming that nazis were not German. I know that it does not mean that all Russians were like that but you should accept responsibility for what happened. Starting with executions of Polish POWs in 1939 ending with executions of German civilians in 1944/45.

Wow, talk about missing the point 110%.

Mars? No, the Soviet Army, like Soviet government, came from all over the Soviet Union. In case you don't know what the Soviet Union was, it was a state comprised of a very large number of countries. Google it for some basic history lessons.

Why should I accept responsibility for anything here? I'm British.

Have I said that the Soviet Army didn't commit atrocities? No, in fact referred to the exact opposite. Here we are:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 9):
the horrendous misdeeds of the Soviet Union

The only point I made otherwise was that Russia is not the same thing as the Soviet Union, or vice versa. It is a good idea to read and fully understand the posts of others before jumping in with criticism that is so wide of the mark.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 18, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3471 times:



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 17):
No, the Soviet Army, like Soviet government, came from all over the Soviet Union.

Yes, but wasn't most of the Soviet infrastructure dominated by the Russians? Sure, Stalin came from Georgia (his name is Iossif Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili) but let's face it: Apart from Stalin, the true people in power in the Soviet Union were Russian. You would hardly find any other Georgian, Ukranian, or even a Lithuanian (to name some examples) who would hold the same amount of power the Russians had.

Why else do you think, were people talking about the "Russkis" or just the Russians when they referred to the people in the USSR? It is indeed a common misconception, but fact is that the Russians were the ones in power for over 70 years of Soviet Union existence, just with the notable exception of the Georgian Joseph Stalin, and later maybe Eduard Shevardnadze, who was foreign minister under Mikhail Gorbachev.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7719 posts, RR: 21
Reply 19, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3466 times:



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 18):
wasn't most of the Soviet infrastructure dominated by the Russians?

Russia was the biggest territory and largest population in the Union - draw your own obvious conclusions from that. One factual conclusion from that is that more Russians suffered than any other people, but that is beside the point.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 18):
Apart from Stalin, the true people in power in the Soviet Union were Russian. You would hardly find any other Georgian, Ukranian, or even a Lithuanian

Incorrect. Again, sheer numbers involved have a role, but it is not true to claim this. Apart from this, the Union was so vast that people from all nationalities and backgrounds were involved in repressing their own.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 18):
Why else do you think, were people talking about the "Russkis" or just the Russians when they referred to the people in the USSR?

Because, like now, people entertained ill-conceived stereotypes and misconceptions, and because as already mentioned Russia was indeed the biggest state in the Union.

It really doesn't even matter what any one individual's assessment of the Russian people's involvement, blame, role or whatever in the Soviet Union was anyway - the fact is that the Soviet Union was not Russia and Russia not the Soviet Union.

If even for nothing else other than historical accuracy, that is simply the way it is.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineAcheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1723 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3393 times:



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 18):
Yes, but wasn't most of the Soviet infrastructure dominated by the Russians? Sure, Stalin came from Georgia

Leonid Brezhnev was ukranian
Yuri Andropov was a Cossack, which suffered greatly during the start of the Soviet Era and particularly under Stalin's famines and many of them fought with the SS against the Soviet Union.
And the short lived Vladimir Ivashko was Ukranian as well.
Heck, even Trotsky, the one who was supposed to take over after Lenin was Ukranian too.

So, it wasn't only Stalin.


User currently onlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21521 posts, RR: 53
Reply 21, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3296 times:



Quoting Lumberton (Thread starter):
Separate, but related subject, is how are the German POW's from Stalingrad remembered in Germany? From accounts I read, almost 100,000 German soldiers went into captivity after that battle; less than 5000 returned -- many years later. Accounts of their fate vary, but from what I read, they were worked or starved to death in Stalin's gulag. Are there veterans organizations in Germany that honor these soldiers? I suspect most of them were in the army because they had to be; most were just soldiers.

Especially the battle of Stalingrad marked the beginning of the end, the turnaround to the ultimate defeat of the nazi empire. When the veterans returned back home their families were generally happy to have them back, but many had trouble adjusting to a normal life again. Much like veterans of other wars, but exacerbated by coming home to a country devastated by the consequences of the war they had waged themselves but which had been lost in shame and devastation.

An added problem was that they had been fighting for Hitler and his regime, so of course their military "accomplishments" did not really receive appreciation; To the contrary, everybody was basically happy if they integrated silently into the newly peaceful and democratic society.

Of course there were private gatherings of veterans whose families often couldn't relate to their experiences, but in various cases (especially with former SS or other "elite" units) the spirit of the old regime was invited back in to these as well, which helped discredit that kind of event in many people's eyes. Probably unfairly in other cases, but the toxicity of the nazi regime just has that kind of effect.

The federal and regional states helped the individual soldiers with their integration into civilian life, but since the new democratic states had declared a clean cut between them and their nazi predecessors for obvious reasons, there were no official celebrations of the veterans as such. Can you imagine a democratic Germany holding an official event to honour Hitler's soldiers, possibly some of them turning up with nazi medals, swastikas and all? Utterly unthinkable!

In more recent years we've learned that even the regular army had in many instances been far from the presumably regime-neutral and at least semi-honourable force as which it had been portrayed by many. It has apparently participated in ideologically motivated atrocities to a far greater extent than we had thought before. Which also makes the decision to treat the veterans as individuals but to keep their military role separate a proper one. Many people back then conducted themselves as properly as they could, others acted like criminals, but it is hard to know and even harder to judge, apart from the most extreme cases.

Some people in the Bundeswehr today can't resist the temptation to draw parallels and to see continuities between the Wehrmacht and the Bundeswehr on some levels, but whenever that kind of thing becomes public, it quickly gets stomped on with demonstrative vigour. But the affinity of nationalists to the military is probably an issue that will remain, as much as the official leadership tries to avoid the appearance and/or genuinely tries to get rid of it. I do trust most of the people in our military, but some of them should definitely not be holding guns.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 19):
Russia was the biggest territory and largest population in the Union - draw your own obvious conclusions from that. One factual conclusion from that is that more Russians suffered than any other people, but that is beside the point.

The grand irony is that the current russian leadership today uses its state-controlled media to paint a glowing picture of Stalin as a great and benevolent leader of the nation who basically could do no wrong. It fits perfectly into the leader cult being built up around Putin, but in light of Stalin's very real crimes and victims in the Soviet Union this is more than just a little disgusting.

The way the soviet army advanced in 1945 had a lot to do with the horrendous treatment of the soviet population by the german forces before. Im many cases there was personal revenge for killed or abused family members involved. Which didn't exactly justify the soviet atrocities, but it wasn't just the soviets being savages for no particular reason. Far away from official propaganda, war can and almost inevitably will twist people into all kinds of monsters...


User currently offlineSkidmarks From UK - England, joined Dec 2004, 7121 posts, RR: 55
Reply 22, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3283 times:



Quoting Klaus (Reply 21):
Far away from official propaganda, war can and almost inevitably will twist people into all kinds of monsters...

That one sentence sums it up really. War does terrible things to people of all races and no one country can claim to be perfect.

Andy  old 

Damn, I agreed with Klaus!!  duck 



Growing old is compulsory, growing up is optional
User currently onlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21521 posts, RR: 53
Reply 23, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3266 times:



Quoting Skidmarks (Reply 22):
Damn, I agreed with Klaus!!

You've survived even worse things than that!  mischievous 


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7719 posts, RR: 21
Reply 24, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3260 times:



Quoting Klaus (Reply 21):
The grand irony is that the current russian leadership today uses its state-controlled media to paint a glowing picture of Stalin as a great and benevolent leader of the nation who basically could do no wrong. It fits perfectly into the leader cult being built up around Putin, but in light of Stalin's very real crimes and victims in the Soviet Union this is more than just a little disgusting.

I have to say that, despite watching Russian TV, reading Russian papers and online news on a daily basis, I do not see what you refer to here. It is true many Russians have built up a romantic misconception of how things were and what Stalin was, and I think to some extent this is a misguided, quasi-nostalgic inevitability. But, to say the media paints a glowing picture of him and his leadership? Sorry, I simply do not see that.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
25 Post contains links Klaus : Russia rewriting Josef Stalin's legacy -- chicagotribune.com TV series on Stalin divides Russian audience - Los Angeles Times
26 MD11Engineer : If you look at the timeline, the encirclement of Stalingrad happened at the same time when Montgomery beat the Afrikakorps in El Alamein. Sure, both
27 RussianJet : I do not doubt things aren't ideal, and it is fair to say things are often 'glossed-over' or represented in too nostalgic a way, but in the terms you
28 Klaus : Weren't you the one who recently told us that you were only watching the internationally transmitted russian media? It's kind of obvious that the dom
29 RussianJet : Not sure what you are referring to there. I get a wide range of domestic and international sources. Granted, but then raids take place for all kinds
30 Klaus : I remember my mother telling us: "When we heard the fanfare and the announcement of the Stalingrad defeat on the radio, we knew we would lose this wa
31 MD11Engineer : Sure, both campaigns, Northern Africa and Stalingrad had the same reason: Stalingrad and a bridgehead across the Wolga river had to be captured if Ge
32 NA : I read about this excavation some days ago. There are other places like that were large numbers of Germans were slaughtered at the end of war or short
33 Dougloid : Hi. My name is Dougloid and I agreed with Klaus once.
34 Dougloid : I've just finished reading The Wages of Destruction by Adam Tooze, and I have to ask: What in hell could those people have been thinking?
35 Oly720man : Having not read the book, who are "those people," the Germans or those outside Germany who helped build Germany up?
36 Pelican : Hey, and Hitler was not German! Yes and no, of course without the loss of the war a so responsible handling of the Nazi legacy would have been imposs
37 Post contains links Dougloid : Easily solved, m'good fellow. Fair warning. It's a long and difficult read. http://www.amazon.com/Wages-Destruct...UTF8&s=books&qid=1232392502&sr=1-1
38 JFKMan : Wow now that is really scary! The think that would scare me is you don't know what has happened on the land anywhere!
39 RussianJet : I know that perfectly well. Are you seriously trying to compare Germany and Austria of old to the Soviet Union?
40 OHLHD : I believe that it will not be the last one that will be found. I do not want to know what can be found if you move in the direction of old Stalingrad.
41 RussianJet : Indeed, but nobody here said he was German, did they? At least I didn't, anyway. In fact, I didn't mention Germany. However, just as 'The Third Reich
42 OHLHD : I just gave a little history lesson. As you said nobody mentioned that he was German but Hitler and the Third Reich come hand in hand. Thank god that
43 NA : No wonder, Stalin had killed millions there. Who would have thought that parts of the "liberators" were no better!
44 Jcs17 : There are no busts or statues of Hilter or Goering in Germany. Whereas, you can find plenty of Lenin and Stalin wherever you go in Russia. Many Russi
45 RussianJet : Because the history, peoples and the length of time is so totally different.
46 JoFMO : But he go citizenship shortly before or after his inauguration. So he became a German citizen.
47 LTU932 : Yes, but instead of being executed in Germany for high treason or at least be deported back to Austria, the courts of the time in Germany failed to d
48 OHLHD : Exactly! But didn´t postwar Germany take the citizenship away again?
49 LTU932 : I have no idea, but what difference would have made that anyway? I mean, he was dead. As symbolic as this would have been, it would have made a bigge
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
262 Mass Graves Found In Iraq (1,000,000+ Victims) posted Wed Sep 8 2004 01:27:15 by B757300
Suicide Attack On German Mil.attaché In Kabul posted Sun Nov 30 2008 04:44:08 by Beaucaire
Mobile Phone/prepaid Calling Card In Poland posted Thu Aug 28 2008 18:39:30 by Alfa75
Jersey: Five Bodies Of Children Found In Home posted Thu Jul 31 2008 08:06:54 by Beaucaire
117 Pussies Found In Omaha Home... posted Thu Jul 24 2008 04:36:36 by Gkirk
Sanke Found In Washing Machine In Gorham, ME posted Fri Jul 18 2008 14:55:07 by MCOflyer
Massive Oil Field Found In The Dakotas? posted Tue Mar 11 2008 22:24:36 by FreequentFlier
Dead Babies Found In And Around Home posted Mon Jul 30 2007 17:31:33 by TZ757300
Homer Simpson Kidnapped, Found In Malaysia posted Thu Jun 21 2007 16:51:01 by Levent
New-Born Found In Wal-Mart Restroom! posted Fri May 25 2007 05:49:51 by WestJetYQQ