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Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 9  
User currently offlineModerators From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 511 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3741 times:
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Installment 8 of this discussion, which may be found here:

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242 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCairo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3729 times:

Have many of you visited

http://citizensbriefingbook.change.gov/home
?

It is Obama's way of hearing what issues are important to the people...allegedly anyway.

Doing a search for threads on Israel, Gaza, etc... is quite instructive. This thread is typical and the most popular on the subject:
http://citizensbriefingbook.change.g.../viewIdea.apexp?id=087800000004lmt

Cairo


User currently offlineEZEIZA From Argentina, joined Aug 2004, 4964 posts, RR: 25
Reply 2, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3714 times:

Israeli Cabinet prepares for cease-fire vote

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090117/...on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians

I guess that's the good news (coincidence now that their good old Texas buddy will be changing jobs?). If you read in the article however, there is yet another disturbing report ...

"In Beit Lahiya, in the northern Gaza Strip, Palestinian health official Dr. Moaiya Hassanain said an Israeli tank shell killed a woman and a boy and wounded 25 others when it landed near a U.N. school. Near Gaza City, Palestinian officials said three more civilians were killed by a naval shell.

The Israeli military had no immediate comment on the reports.

United Nations spokesman Chris Gunness condemned the shelling attack, saying the the school was crowded with 1,600 people who had sought shelter from Israel's three-week offensive in Gaza. He said the compound took several direct hits and confirmed that two people died."

another attack on the evil UN ...



Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26954 posts, RR: 58
Reply 3, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3713 times:



Quoting Cairo (Reply 1):
Doing a search for threads on Israel, Gaza, etc... is quite instructive. This thread is typical and the most popular on the subject:
http://citizensbriefingbook.change.g...04lmt

Very interesting read. Gives me hope that all is not lost and that the USA foreign policy might just take a turn for the better. If anyone can lead policy down the right road to democracy and morality Obama can.


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 4, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3706 times:

As usual, our World News is first with the story.

The most heart-breaking video I've seen yet about the Gaza blitz.

Anyon who doesn't find the sight of that Palestinian doctor - working in an Israeli hospital - absolutely heartbreaking, please tell us. And tell us also how you can BEAR watching things like that, just for 'politics'.......

Three daughters killed and, by the look of it, the fourth one blinded........

http://player.sbs.com.au/naca/#/naca/wna/Latest/playlist/Gaza-latest/



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 5, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3695 times:

And here's the next 'incident':-

"GAZA (Reuters) - Israeli tank fire killed two boys at a U.N.-run school in the northern Gaza Strip Saturday, not six people as previously reported, a U.N. official said.

"An Israeli army spokesman said he was checking the report.

"Adnan Abu Hasna, a spokesman for the U.N. Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA), said two brothers had been killed and 14 people had been wounded, including the boys' mother, when Israeli tank fire hit a school run by UNRWA in the northern town of Beit Lahiya."


http://uk.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUKTRE50G0X720090117

Years back, I was actually taught to direct artillery fire, and even airstrikes. I therefore know how inaccurate they are likely to be, especially the first few rounds.

But at least I'd have known that if I'd missed through carelessness, and hit civilians, I'd have faced an enquiry, or even a court-martial.

And that the guys coming at me would probably have been the whole Red Army, who had (at the time) far better weapons than we had.

Not some poor, half-trained, deluded kid with a Kalashnikov and maybe 20 rounds of ammunition...........there are plenty of other ways of dealing with people like that.

[Edited 2009-01-17 04:23:25]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineEZEIZA From Argentina, joined Aug 2004, 4964 posts, RR: 25
Reply 6, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3688 times:



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 5):
And here's the next 'incident':-

The UN-run facilities seem to have been suffered many "incidents" lately ... but of course, Israel takes great care in keeping civilians out of this  no 



Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 7, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3686 times:

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 6):
The UN-run facilities seem to have been suffered many "incidents" lately

May be just a mixup, EZEIZA  Smile. Vaguely possible that 'UN' in the Hebrew alphabet stands for 'UT' - 'Uncle Target' - in the Anglo-American one...........

Either they're lousy shots - or they're in the 'massacre' business.

[Edited 2009-01-17 04:48:26]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 8, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3678 times:



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 6):
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 5):
And here's the next 'incident':-

The UN-run facilities seem to have been suffered many "incidents" lately ... but of course, Israel takes great care in keeping civilians out of this

That relates to the comment from the previous thread talking about whether and why (on earth was the implication) Indonesians might be interested in a war in the ME that drew this reply from HB-IWC:
Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 147):
And that's not to speak about that most effective means of mass communication: what Muslims all around the world have been told about this issue in their Mosques; in just a couple of hours, the weekly Friday Prayers will undoubtedly once again highlight the issue front and center.


Additionally, Indonesia has peacekeeping forces as best I know in Congo, Sudan and Lebanon;
http://www.antara.co.id/en/arc/2008/...ore-peacekeepers-to-lebanon-sudan/
In November 2007, the Indonesian government sent the Garuda XXIII-B military contingent there as part of the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (Unifil).

The 850-strong contingent led by Lt Col Djoko Sudiono consists of joint military personnel from the three services in the TNI, the Defense Ministry and the Foreign Affairs Ministry.

The Indonesian contingent consists of 528 personnel from the Army, 242 personnel from the Navy, 60 personnel from the Air Force, 16 personnel from TNI Headquarters, one from the Defense Ministry and three from the Foreign Affairs Ministry.

Konga XXIII-B replaced Konga XXIII-A that had been assigned in Lebanon to help maintain peace for one year.

So at least 850 families do have a direct interest in the ME and in not having UN forces bombed or hit by friendly fire.

Some will recall that at various times there were pleas to Muslim countries to send forces to stabilize Iraq. It is hardly surprising if the Government of Indonesia is a bit gun shy of such involvement when the blue flag of the UN seems to be all too frequently a target.


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 9, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3671 times:

Quoting Baroque (Reply 8):
So at least 850 families do have a direct interest in the ME and in not having UN forces bombed or hit by friendly fire.

Sort of 'nothing short of marvellous' that the Israeli Army has knocked out so many clearly-marked UN facilities - not just in the Gaza Strip, there was also that clearly-marked UN post in Lebanon, that the incompetent buggers had to shell literally for hours before they got a hit and killed six UN soldiers.........

And even now, the UN Security Council has only passed one out of fiity resolutions critical of Israel. And even on that one, the USA abstained.........

And now, Israel has the cheek to ask for a 'UN force' to police the Gaza-Egypt border.......

Thank God that I'm long past military age. Fighting the Russians would have been bad enough. But at least I'd have known that (unlike the Israelis) they'd have been highly unlikely even to get the chance to shoot me in the back.......

[Edited 2009-01-17 05:18:52]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineAllstarflyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3659 times:



Quoting OA260 (Reply 3):
If anyone can lead policy down the right road to democracy and morality Obama can.

That's debatable, but he should get a fair shake at trying at least.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 9):
(unlike the Israelis) they'd have been highly unlikely even to get the chance to shoot me in the back

I love these threads - the lines separating opinion and fantasy are at best often obscured.  scratchchin 


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 11, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3658 times:



Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 10):
I love these threads - the lines separating opinion and fantasy are at best often obscured.

'Please explain,' Allstarflier?  Smile



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8135 posts, RR: 26
Reply 12, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3648 times:



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 7):
Vaguely possible that 'UN' in the Hebrew alphabet stands for 'UT' - 'Uncle Target' - in the Anglo-American one...........

You know NAV, as critical as I am of Israeli policy, that's just an unnecessarily cheap shot. Bear in mind that there are numerous citizens of Israel, as well as the global Jewish diaspora, of which I'm a member, who categorically disapprove of this endless butchery of innocent people.

There's no need to drag a beautiful ancient language through the mud.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26954 posts, RR: 58
Reply 13, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3641 times:



Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 10):
That's debatable, but he should get a fair shake at trying at least.

Well at least he cant do any worse. Politics and opinions aside its sad to see the current state that the USA is in. The country is dying and loosing the things that people once hailed as the ''American Dream''. Sad to see. I think that re thinking foreign policy especially in regards to Israel and its funding of Israel should be a top priority. Maybe the economic crisis may be the thing that makes the funding dry up. I cant see American public shelling out $$$ when they are facing economic crisis at home.


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 14, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3638 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 12):
You know NAV, as critical as I am of Israeli policy, that's just an unnecessarily cheap shot.

Guess you're right, Aaron747 - apologies. But, even in training, I had the odd opportunity to see the damage that weapons could do.

Frankly, the very IDEA of any army using such weapons in the virtual certainty that they are likely to hit civilians (like those poor little girls) utterly sickens me........

And, beyond that, people like Livni and Mark Regev, aka Mark Freiberg (not an Israeli unless he's recently been naturalised, actually an Australian who was a student at Melbourne Uni when I was lecturing there) just glibly saying things like, "There were militants firing from nearby," or some such, also turns me up.

Forgive me for being a bit angry. If the Russians had ever tried to come through the Fulda Gap back in the '60s, it might have been my job to direct fire on targets like bridges and crossroads - which, of course, would have included villages etc.

The whole idea worried me. But, at least, if I'd had to do it, I'd have been sure that it was a whole fully-equipped army coming at me - not a few poor b*****y 'militants' armed with small-arms only.

The Israeli Army's activities - 'all arms' reactions to every threat of any kind - are utterly 'disproportionate.' We would have been court-martialled and given five years or so in a military prison if we'd ever done anything of the kind........

Sorry - but even in armies, there ARE normally 'rules of engagement'..........

The Israeli Army doesn't appear to have any............

[Edited 2009-01-17 06:55:44]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7702 posts, RR: 21
Reply 15, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3606 times:
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7834255.stm

"United Nations officials say two children, aged five and seven, were killed when Israeli tank fire hit a UN school where hundreds had taken shelter in the northern town of Beit Lahiya.

John Ging, the Unrwa chief in Gaza, told the BBC that there was "nowhere safe in Gaza".

"I'm ashamed of this - there's international legal responsibility to protect civilians in conflict, and we're not doing it," Mr Ging said.

"We're failing here, we're failing and there has to be accountability for that failure."

Mr Ging's spokesman earlier said an investigation ought to be held to ascertain whether any war crimes had been committed in the incident."

I am also ashamed that we in the UK are doing nothing to stop this.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26954 posts, RR: 58
Reply 16, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3601 times:



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 15):
I am also ashamed that we in the UK are doing nothing to stop this

Well the UK is a puppet of US goverments so no surprise there. New Labour ?? They sold themselves down the river!


User currently offlineUs330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3871 posts, RR: 14
Reply 17, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3600 times:

From the previous thread:

Nav 20 wrote: "Thanks, Us330. I don't know nearly as much as I should do as to the extent to which what we nowadays call 'Zionism' had its origins among Bible Belt 'fundamentalist Christians' as much as among 'fundamentalist Jews.'"

Oddly enough, they are two separate movements--they only started to intersect in the 1940s.
Also, they were not "fundamentalist Christians"--relative to the religious trends in the U.S. in the 18th and 19th centuries, they were very much in the mainstream, and they came out of the Northeast, not the Bible Belt, with its Presbyterian, Episcopalian, and Congregationalist congregations. Just as a point of clarification, when the term Bible Belt and "Fundamentalist Christian" is used in the U.S., it generally characterizes the Southern Baptist and other related movements.

Also, Zionism wasn't a product of "fundamentalist Jews" as we know them today--the Orthodox--it was also in the mainstream, a natural reaction to centuries of persecution in Europe, set off by the Dreyfus Affair. Herzl, who is considered to be the father of modern Zionism, was not ultra-Orthodox, and grew up in the Austro-Hungarian Empire, where Jews, relative to those under Russian rule, were relatively assimilated into the population. I also wouldn't deem Zionism, or the belief in a Jewish homeland in Israel, to be a particularly "radical" belief. I consider myself a Zionist, and I haven't been to temple in years--and there are plenty of others like me.

Nav 20 wrote:
"I often wonder whether those people would 'accept' a UN Resolution giving, for example, ownership of all land in Texas back to Mexico; or that of California back to the Spanish; or, heaven forbid, that of Canada, the Great Lakes, and the Mississippi back to the French .

I think the better hypothetical in this case would probably be giving the land back to the aboriginal peoples of North America.

Thought of saying just that, Us330. But there is ample evidence (from written history, not just the OT), and from archaeology, that the 'Children of Israel' were not the first people to settle there."

No, what I meant by my statement was that if you wanted to do a "reset" and turn all lands over to their original inhabitants, then you wouldn't turn North America over to the French, Spanish, English, etc.

Nav 20 wrote:
"Another question that needs answering is, Is being Jewish:-

A. a religion?

B. a race?

C. a nationality?

As far as I'm concerned, it's merely a religion. Anyone, of any nationality or race, can choose to adopt the Jewish faith. Just as they can become Christians or Muslims or Buddhists or whatever."

Oddly enough, Wikipedia is a great source for the answer to this question, and does a fairly good job of explaining it.
Being Jewish is most definitely not a nationality. It is both a religion and an ethnicity. Anyone can, technically, become a Jew. Judaism, though, relative to other religions is fairly difficult to convert into--there is a very thorough process, almost similar to studying for a bar/bat mitzvah, that one must undertake before you can become a Jew (although, according to some ultra fundamentalist sects, no converts are actually allowed). My own Grandmother, for example, went through an Orthodox conversion that took several years before she married my grandfather.

Because of the historical isolation of Jews that prevented them from assimilating into other non-Jewish societies, an ethnicity, with it's own cultural norms and customs, also developed. One can consider themselves Jewish, like myself, even if they aren't that particularly religious. Furthermore, due to intermarriage, Scientists have documented certain genetic markers and diseases that appear more commonly in Jews than in other groups. Even in Jews, because of isolation, there are several subsets--Sephardic (Jews of the Arab world that are descendents of those who fled from the Spanish Inquisition), and Ashkenazi (European) being the two most prevalent.
I have to ask, are you Jewish, or do you come from a Jewish background?

Cairo wrote: "The "never-heard-a-shot-fired-in-anger" hawks of the Bush administration made the same kind of mistake about war, which was desirable for them because of their great education and books they read. The NYTimes is in many circles seen as the voice of Jews, run by Jews and in the service of, well, .... point being there might be other English sources about Islam more accepted by Muslims as authoritative on Islamic matters. No secular US university explains Islam the way it is understood in Cairo."

Then you'll have to explain your original point, because the only thing that I discussed about Islam in my previous posts was that suicide was forbidden by the Koran. And, if you had gone back and read the article where I quoted from, the quote didn't come from the journalist who wrote the piece, but from a former jihadist that is in a pilot program being run by Saudi officials to see if they can "deprogram" jihadists.

War wasn't desirable by those in the Bush administration because of their great education and books that they read--"intellectual" is not an adjective that I have seen used to describe the Bush Administration--it was desirable because they thought it could further their own means and goals.

I also realize that no secular US university explains Islam the way it is understood in Cairo at religious affiliated universities, but then again, no secular US university explains Judaism the way it is understood by the Chabad-Lubavitch sect, no secular US university explains Christianity the way it is understood by those at Bob Jones, Liberty, Oral Roberts, or Pepperdine Universities. Secular US Universities, however, probably do explain Islam, to some extent, in a similar vein as it is taught by secular universities in the Muslim world, like the American University in Cairo.

As for the NYTimes, I am well aware that plenty in the Arab world see the Media as being controlled by the Jews, the Banks being controlled by the Jews, the U.S. Government being controlled by the Jews, etc. In fact, there is an old line that says if a Jew feels depressed, he should go read an Arab newspaper, because according to them, Jews control and rule everything. Just because, though, they believe it to be so doesn't mean that they are correct.


User currently offlineJutes85 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3575 times:



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 14):
Sorry - but even in armies, there ARE normally 'rules of engagement'..........

Sorry, but Israel will not engage any enemy without using all its military arsenal, that is just poor military planning.

Does Hamas follow these "rules of engagement"? I think not.

Israel plans ceasefire, Hamas vows to fight on

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/0...ternational_us_palestinians_israel

Quote:
GAZA (Reuters) - Israel plans to halt its Gaza offensive without any deal with Hamas, an Israeli official said on Saturday, in an apparent effort to deny the Islamist group any gains from the three-week-old conflict.

"The goal is to announce, subject to cabinet approval, a suspension of military activities because we believe our goals have been attained," said the official, asking not to be named.

"There is no agreement with Hamas," the Israeli official said, adding that Israel would reserve the right to act if Hamas continued firing or launched rockets across the border.

A Hamas official in Beirut said earlier the militants would keep fighting until Israel met their demands, mainly for an end to a crippling economic blockade.

The Israeli army was checking the report. A spokesman said troops do not target civilians but respond when fired on.

Israel should've never given back the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt. hamas would've never existed and the weapons smuggling would not be occuring.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7702 posts, RR: 21
Reply 19, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3574 times:
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Quoting Jutes85 (Reply 18):
Sorry, but Israel will not engage any enemy without using all its military arsenal, that is just poor military planning.

That's an interesting theory. Why then is Gaza not already a radioactive wasteland?



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineAllstarflyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3568 times:



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 11):
'Please explain,' Allstarflier?

Sure, here's an example . . .

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 12):
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 7):
Vaguely possible that 'UN' in the Hebrew alphabet stands for 'UT' - 'Uncle Target' - in the Anglo-American one...........


You know NAV, as critical as I am of Israeli policy, that's just an unnecessarily cheap shot.

. . . which is pure fantasy - even a critic of Israeli policy calls out the imagination you've shared, somewhat like the one I quoted . . .

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 9):
(unlike the Israelis) they'd have been highly unlikely even to get the chance to shoot me in the back



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 19):
That's an interesting theory. Why then is Gaza not already a radioactive wasteland?

Perhaps another way to say it is "Israel will not conduct military operations without having all its resources ready for use".


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26954 posts, RR: 58
Reply 21, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3568 times:



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 19):
Why then is Gaza not already a radioactive wasteland?

That would proabably be ''excessive force'' even for the Israeli government. They prefer to bomb hospitals and schools.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7702 posts, RR: 21
Reply 22, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3561 times:
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Quoting OA260 (Reply 21):
That would proabably be ''excessive force'' even for the Israeli government. They prefer to bomb hospitals and schools.

Sure, merely wishing to point at that they have such weaponary in the referred-to arsenal.

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 20):
Perhaps another way to say it is "Israel will not conduct military operations without having all its resources ready for use".

Yes, like they're not afraid to use those resources to kill people from across the whole social, political and, even ocasionally, military spectrum.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineUs330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3871 posts, RR: 14
Reply 23, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3561 times:



Quoting OA260 (Reply 21):
That would proabably be ''excessive force'' even for the Israeli government

Yeah it would be overkill--the nuke(s) that everybody knows that they have, but that Israel neither confirms nor denies that they have, are mainly for deterrent purposes, and would only be used to counter another nuclear attack or potential nuclear threat. As critical as I am of Hamas, they are not a nuclear threat.


User currently offlineUs330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3871 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3556 times:

Also, I should point out that we forget just how small the area we're dealing with is. Dropping a nuke on Gaza could easily affect the Israelis just as much as the Palestinians (depending on how large the nuke is).

25 Allstarflyer : When it comes to defense, obviously they're not.
26 RussianJet : Well, it's what we're seeing now, and many people on here have been constantly been excusing this as 'defence'.
27 EZEIZA : Hamas is not the military of a sovreign democratic state. Hemas is the terrorist part, and agai, for the 9th thread, Israel's tactics are borderline
28 Post contains links OA260 : Israel set to announce Gaza ceasefire Saturday, 17 January 2009 18:04 Israeli sources say the prime minister Ehud Olmert will announce an unilateral c
29 EZEIZA : someone in these threads predicted that this would happen just before Obama took office ... I really hope with Bush gone that the US will stop blindl
30 RussianJet : Agreed, but unfortunately we all know it won't result in anything.
31 Post contains links OA260 : Innocent civilian's being treated in hospitals for white phosphorus burns which even after treatment still burn the flesh !! -------------------------
32 OA260 : Olmert live on TV now and called the bombing by IDF quote '' A fantastic operation '' .
33 RussianJet : You know, it would be one thing if he actually seemed sombre and respectful when (in his view) having take such measures if he really did believe it
34 Post contains links Us330 : And when have sanctions ever accomplished anything? They only end up hurting the people that they intend to help (see Iraq, Cuba, etc.). Well, I hate
35 OA260 : So do you think that it makes it right for Israel to use it ?
36 Post contains links Jutes85 : The only way for a future peace in Gaza is to de-arm Hamas and the Palestinian people. Holey War How to close the Gaza tunnels http://www.slate.com/id
37 RussianJet : Or for all sides to take their fair share of responsibility and stop treating each other like dirt, and stop killing each other.
38 OA260 : Exactly. Palestinians should be treated equally as Israelis instead of second class citizens.
39 Us330 : Well, considering that it is allowed to be used, yes. But that wasn't the point of my post. The point was that you shouldn't scream out righteous ind
40 Oa260 : Well do you consider the Israeli government a terrorist group the same as Hamas? I think you know what was meant.
41 Deskflier : Correction! Hamas is the legally elected administration of ALL Palestinian territories. Which is a shame, since parties based on religion is an idea
42 Post contains links OA260 : The Beirut declaration is being brought up again and is thought to be a major topic of discussion at the negotiations in Egypt. --------- Expectations
43 Post contains links OA260 : Israeli TV airs Gaza doctor's pleas after children killed - ENGLISH SUBTITLES http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=OLUJ4f...on_id=annotation_288952&feature=i
44 Us330 : No I do not. Mainly because of this one difference: nowhere in the state of Israel's charter does it call for the destruction of any Arab state.
45 OA260 : Since we are talking about the use of White phosphorous just because Hamas may or may not have been using the same substance does not make it right.
46 US330 : You seem to be implying that every time civilians die due to military action, there is an automatic equivalance to the policies of the Nazis. Before
47 Post contains links OA260 : Sorry its government state terrorism . Before we go any further ! ''Terrorism is the systematic use of terror.[clarification needed][1] At present, t
48 EZEIZA : That's why I used the word "hope". I always have hope when a change is around the corner. Tme will tell I guess. And Hitler was elected in Germany We
49 OA260 : Totally agree . After 9 threads people just dont get the deal. 2+2 = 4 . Hamas became popular amongst some for a reason . Have any of the same people
50 US330 : That's fine--I just wanted to know what you meant, because I initially thought you were equating it to genocide.
51 OA260 : And what in your mind is genocide ? Where does mass murder turn to genocide? Whats your cut off point? Just curious.
52 US330 : Well, mass murder is mass murder. Mass murder, though, is not always genocide. Genocide is the systematic/orchestrated killing and/or extermination (o
53 SOBHI51 : Strange you are saying so.But if Israel did not create Hamas in the first place and then lost control we would not have been in this mess.and if Isra
54 SOBHI51 : Well cease fire started 12 minutes ago.Hope it will last.May i suggest a cease fire here also.Let's all take a deep breath cool down and relax let's s
55 NAV20 : I plead guilty to mking that prediction, EZEIZA, back in Part 7 - "It's pretty clear that Israel took advantage of the interregnum between Bush movin
56 EZEIZA : I was pretty sure it was you but I didn't want to go through the 9 threads again good call by the way
57 Jutes85 : And I'm still amazed that the Palestinians think that by electing a terrorist organization bent on destroying Israel, will get them any hope for peac
58 EZEIZA : Fair enough, but let's get out of our comfy chairs for a while and think like someone who sees Israel as an invader and an oppressor. You life is cra
59 Post contains links NAV20 : Thanks for 17, Us330. Fully accept your point that Zionism (including what you could call 'Christian Zionism') originated in the North-East, rather th
60 Dougloid : When you've been to the wailing wall try and lift one of those anonymous and obscure pieces of folklore.
61 Dougloid : That's an enormously complex and dynamic question that would demand more understanding of the German psyche and politics in the inter war years than
62 Post contains links MadameConcorde : Aljazeera reports Gaza ceasefire apparently broken! Breaking News Sunday. video on Aljazeera Sunday of four rockets fired from the northern Gaza strip
63 Baroque : Apparently hand washing is more satisfactory since the days of Lady Macbeth! You would think they would be embarrassed. Ban K M seems about the only
64 Post contains links and images NAV20 : I'll make sure to have a look after I've visited Bethlehem, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, and the Al-Aqsa Mosque, Dougloid.   The Holy Land, as
65 RussianJet : Ah, but seeing as the pro-Israeli crew have constantly dismissed anything from Aljazeera as completely biased and inaccurate, I guess we can assume t
66 QANTAS077 : amazing that they call a ceasefire yet Israeli military continues to remain in Gaza..
67 NAV20 : I suspect that they 'have a tiger by the tail.' There are still rockets coming in. If they pull out entirely, they'll be seen to have lost. On the ot
68 OA260 : Israel wants the status quo at present. It means that they dont have to really negotiate and give up land and other luxuries.
69 Mortyman : The ceasefire lasted for 7 minutes.... Wich is understandable according to commentators in Norway. Norwegian commentators / experts on Middle East aff
70 NA : So that Hamas can quickly regroup? No way. A ceasefire does not mean retreat at once. It means observing the current situation and the behaviour of t
71 Post contains links Windy95 : What is your defintition of a ceasefire?? Rockets Fired Into Israel After Cease-Fire Approved GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip — Israel declared a unilateral
72 NAV20 : A touch of 'real-politik' as I see it. I'm no fan of Hamas. Indeed, I'm no fan of any 'fundamentalists' who mix religion with politics, be they Christ
73 SOBHI51 : So now women and children are firing the rockets.
74 Dtwclipper : Gee, I don't know, maybe you should ask the folks who fired the rockets at CIVILIAN targets in Israel? How nice that you overlooked the fact that dur
75 NAV20 : First of all, Dtwclipper, it is only Israel that has declared a ceasefire. The Gazans haven't. Secondly - looking at at least 1,200 Gazan dead and 5,
76 Dtwclipper : I will continue to blame the Gazans for allowing Hamas to fire Thousands upon Thousands of missiles into Civilian areas for years and years.
77 Dtwclipper : Oh, and by the way, Hamas has announced a cease fire. Hamas does??
78 NAV20 : Let's get back to basics, Dtwclipper. Suppose that the Gazans do in fact go ON firing rockets. 1. What do you think that Israel SHOULD do about it? 2.
79 Post contains links NAV20 : Guys, looks like I was possibly more 'right' than I knew. Can this article possibly be a 'ray of hope'? :- (Excerpts - link to full article below) "T
80 US330 : All your points are valid and correct, and to be honest with you, the only answer I can come up as to why Palestine was chosen was because of the Old
81 US330 : Haaretz needs to do a better job--for being an influential young blogger, how come I, of Generation Y, fresh out of college, have never heard of this
82 EZEIZA : Let's see the facts here; Israel invades, kills just as many Hamas militants as civilians, including hundreds of children. When they felt like it (or
83 OA260 : News conference by world leaders in Sharm El Sheikh. French President calls for immediate declaration of Israel to its intentions to take all Israeli
84 Baroque : And more, because while the civilian casualties (on both sides, although the weight of numbers is a bit lop sided) are to be deplored the real casual
85 OA260 : Yes very true. Look at the language that came out of the American public after 9/11. Some very disturbing words indeed.
86 JFK69 : I have a question. Why is it that you have some Israelis calling for Israel out of Gaza, but you don't have any residents of Gaza calling for Hamas to
87 EZEIZA : Someone correct me but I recently read that there were several options on the table for the jews to have their territory, including a part of Argenti
88 SOBHI51 : And if i remember well parts of Kenya and Ethiopia. Well if you are targeting the people firing the rockets that's war but how come only civilians ar
89 Mortyman : Hamas apparently accept the ceacefire provided that Israel leaves Gaza within a week
90 Dougloid : Tar baby is considered a racial epithet in the United States. I'm sure you did not mean that. Right. They're still making demands. You gotta love tho
91 Jutes85 : Did you even read the post? The rocket crew was killed, it's not Israels fault that a woman and a child were lolly-gaging in the area. lol, So hamas
92 Mortyman : Why should'nt they ? In a ceasefire, both parties need to be heard and taken seriously in order for it to be effective. As long as Israel keeps it's
93 Allstarflyer : Who fired rockets into Germany provoking them? When you figure out how to execute a "clean" military operation, I'm sure national governments will be
94 SOBHI51 : It never is. And that was the real objective of this war.Few months from now land will be confiscated,Palestinians thrown out of there houses for col
95 Post contains links Dougloid : Parenthetically, the Iranians have declared a great Hamas victory. You heard it here first. http://www5.irna.ir/En/View/FullStory/?NewsId=309094&idLa
96 Mortyman : Dont' patrionise me, please... Norwegians are well aware of Hamas charter and what they stand for. The Norwegian government has a large network in th
97 Post contains links OA260 : Israel has begun withdrawing troops from the Gaza strip, according to a military source. "I can confirm that a gradual withdrawal of our forces is und
98 US330 : I have to agree with Dougloid here. How can you be a moderate when you are a member of a group that advocates the destruction of Israel and killing J
99 RussianJet : No, he said 'more moderate' not 'moderate'. Perhaps another way of putting it would be to say that some parts of the organisation are less fanatical
100 Jutes85 : Don't worry Iran, your time will come soon enough. I really feel sorry for the Iranian people having such idiots run their country. The Israeli's wan
101 RussianJet : Hmm, so you'd best give 'em what they want and let the people caught in the middle be damned then?
102 EZEIZA : Anything but idiots. They have half the world grabbed by where it hurts most without even doing anything .. and let's all hope it stays this way, in
103 QANTAS077 : nothing will happen to Iran.
104 OA260 : Funny you should mention Iran. There was an interesting program today about the Shah and how the USA proped him up and did their dirty work for them.
105 QANTAS077 : sounds like another country in the middle east, actually, quite a few!
106 OA260 : Yep and then people post on here and dont understand why people are against and Anti certain countries foreign policy. They also dont understand why
107 Windy95 : Hamas and Hezbollah are fighting a proxy war for Iran. Iran also deserves a good part of the blame for what is happening here and for the problems in
108 OA260 : Iran along with the USA. Supplied by ??
109 Dtwclipper : Not really: Key figures: 8,500+ rockets and mortars in total fired from Gaza into Israel since 2001 5,700+ rockets and mortars fired from Gaza since
110 Windy95 : And England, France, the UN and a host of Arab league countries that have had their hand in this mess for 60 years. But currently Iran is the main ag
111 Dougloid : Wwho the heck are these people? get them on the phone. They're all out planting Garkad trees for the Jews to hide behind so the other fellows don't k
112 Windy95 : That is Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran's end game. It has nothing to do with letting them live peacefully in Gaza or the West Bank. That would not change
113 OA260 : Currently !! Currently ?? You contradict your own statement (s )
114 Post contains links OA260 : Arab-Israelis lament war on Gaza By Rachel Shabi in Israel "This is murder and a crime," says the 82-year-old Palestinian standing on a Jaffa street c
115 OA260 : 410 Children confirmed as dead and 1855 confirmed injured. Also breaking news reports coming in that 100,000 refugees since Israel have flattened thei
116 Post contains images NAV20 : Very fair response, US330. Couldn't agree more that had the process been more gradual - and achieved by buying land fair and square, instead of drivi
117 Dtwclipper : Like all great works of fiction, there is always some kernel of truth. I believe that it is true that you are over 60. Other than that you have given
118 US330 : I couldn't disagree with you more. Israel wants nothing to do with the settlements--in fact, they already spent quite a bit of money (and political p
119 EZEIZA : yeah right ... Hamas got tickled at most. The civilians got hit hard (not my opinion by the way, a fact), increasing the depair and hatred, which I s
120 Post contains links and images NAV20 : I think there can be no doubt that that was the motivation of some at least of the people involved. Plus an 'invincible' opinion that Arabs were mere
121 Windy95 : If you say this enough times people might begin to believe your revisionist history. How many did the Jews drive out? How many where told to leave by
122 EZEIZA : I agree, but that is a problem when the country acts in the same way as the terrorist group, and to make things worse, with the US backing them up no
123 Jutes85 : I didn't know that Israel and the US were recognized globally as a terrorist organization. This breaking news out of Al Jazeera?
124 EZEIZA : Or you could read the post and understand what the words "acts in the same way as" mean.
125 Post contains links and images NAV20 : Usually estimated at a bit over 700,000, Windy95. Rather more than half the Arab population at the time. According to UNRWA, the total on their books
126 Jutes85 : I don't see how a professional military using modern technology to kill terrorist scum like hamas is considered terrorism. So is what the US doing in
127 EZEIZA : That's precisely the point: the professional military using modern technology should not bomb UN compounds, and must not, ever, in any war, in any at
128 Jutes85 : For one, I believe that children under 16 make up close to 50% of the population in Gaza, so their mortality rates will be high. You will always have
129 Post contains links Baroque : I know you function along the lines of Sir Humphrey Appleby and already know the answer to your question, but I will play along: http://www.nytimes.c
130 EZEIZA : Especially if you bomb where they are concentrated Then you have to use other tactics First of all, that would most definitely not get rid of the Ham
131 Post contains links Dougloid : Memo to Hamas apologists: This just in from Reuters. Jan 18 - Hamas announces an immediate ceasefire by its fighters and allied groups in the Gaza Str
132 Baroque : That link is not adequate/correct. Why did you ask if you did not want to know?
133 Jutes85 : No. You use tactics that minimize the risk to your troops first. CAS was the proper way to conduction this operation. There were only what, 14 Israel
134 Post contains links NAV20 : Looks like there'll be plenty of work for the lawyers, anyway:- "Israel is preparing for a wave of lawsuits by pro-Palestinian organizations overseas
135 Baroque : And no, I did not know that Hamas were the first to use suicide attacks. Back a bit in WWII it was used quite a lot! The Kamikaze and the Selbstopfer
136 OA260 : Id believe Al Jazeera before I would any $$$ rich politically proped up US media thats for sure. They feed people candy to give them the feel good fa
137 Post contains links NAV20 : Huh - Baroque, EZEIZA, looks like I finally got a 'hole in one.' How come I can never do that on the golf course? "Hamas, Israel hold fire; officials
138 OA260 : What a coincidence
139 RussianJet : Please explain. Correct. I think you're addressing the wrong forum.
140 OA260 : Exaclty it has been said before that those accusations are not acceptable , its offensive and un true.
141 Allstarflyer : Perhaps to give the benefit of the doubt, perception becomes reality.
142 Baroque : Howard Florey was a bacterium and Montagner and Gallo actually caused AIDS - of those conclusions there is no doubt at all.
143 Allstarflyer : You're free to believe what you will.
144 OA260 : Care to explain that in a bit more detail??
145 Allstarflyer : Sure. You appear as though you've been (unfairly) labeled an apologist for Hamas. What I said implies that you're not really an Hamas apologist - onl
146 RussianJet : A common distortion, repeated ad nauseam in these threads, has been the implication that those who criticise Israeli actions therefore excuse Hamas.
147 Baroque : Let us see RJ, the next fusillades will arrive when splinter groups start firing whatever into Israel and we try to point out that deliberately tryin
148 NAV20 : Guys - hopefully, a touch of 'real-politik.' Hamas has been firing rockets ('toy' rockets compared to the sort of stuff proper armies have) literally
149 Baroque : More an election campaign actually Nav.
150 NAV20 : Sure, Baroque. Politics. Still remember that if the Russians had tried to come through the Fulda Gap, either we'd have stopped them, or they'd have f
151 Post contains links NewAlitalia : Europe is "divided" about the support for Israel. After to have attended the summit of Sharm el Sheik, the leaders of Britain, Italy, France and Germa
152 JFK69 : I think he means the terrorists.
153 US330 : Yeah, but two wrongs do not make a right, and sixty years is more than enough time to find another place where one can start a new life. It's not Isr
154 Dougloid : From the BBC this morning: A spokesman for Hamas' military wing, Abu Ubaida, said its rocket capabilities had not been affected by the conflict. "We
155 Baroque : As Huxley said, into my hands. If 60 years is enough, why then have the Zionists been pissing about for 2000 years? Of they all go somewhere else, US
156 Allstarflyer : Yes, the very thing about which they've done that does get forgotten in all of this.
157 RussianJet : Just as I thought. Like it or not, criminals, terrorists, saints, whoever - all human beings.
158 OA260 : Exactly which shows a lack of education and understanding in the matter. ''Your either with us or against us'' doesn't wash with me. Yep you confirme
159 EZEIZA : wrong forum here. No one ever even implied to be Hamas appologists. Between women and children we already know they weren't, and that number is aroun
160 NAV20 : No offence meant, NewAliitatia, but have you ever tried to haul 120lbs. - say 4x25-pounder shells - through a tunnel? Due to a misspent youth - mainl
161 NewAlitalia : I totally agree with you NAV20, it will be almost impossible to block those illegal trades.. but i think it is a duty of all the civilized nations to
162 US330 : Have you not read any of NAV20 and I's discussion? Zionists haven't been "pissing about 2000 years" because they haven't existed for the previous 190
163 US330 : Where and when did you serve?
164 Allstarflyer : Good . . . I wouldn't want that to be misunderstood. Ah, yes . . . as if the U(tter) N(onsense) has any relevance as it stands. A grand display it wo
165 EZEIZA : I honestly don't recall that, and certainly not by me. I would use it though in reference to human lives being saved, because I can't understand how
166 Par13del : Ok. I'll bite on this one, somehow when the Egyptians, Hamas and Israel negotiated the previous truce they ensured that it would end after the US pre
167 NAV20 : US 330, tbat worries me a lot. So for the Palestinians (''Philistines' in terms even of the OT), who have lived in the place for a couple of millenni
168 JFK69 : Give me a break. People who fly planes into buildings or strap bombs to themselves to blow up people in a bus are not human beings. Just like any ser
169 Par13del : So in the bigger picture what does this mean, that the nation of Israel should not exist where it currently is, if so, fine, what do you propose? The
170 OA260 : Neither are governments that support evil regimes who murder their own citizens and put $$ before people. What makes it ok and moral to support one e
171 Dougloid : From today's Telegraph. Ismail Haniya, the deposed Palestinian prime minister and political leader in Gaza, said the "armed resistance" had triumphed
172 LXA333 : It's great to see European countries(France, Germany, UK) on Israels side and our side, unlike most south american countries. Well of course UK will a
173 NewAlitalia : Ehm, unfortunately it is not much like this. Except a lot of words.. just read a few posts above..
174 Post contains links OA260 : In an online poll by state broadcaster RTE the majority of Irish people who voted thought that Israel should be investigated for war crimes . http://w
175 Jutes85 : It's idiots like him that will ensure the IDF will keep up in their military combat proficiency. As long as groups like these exist, the Palestinians
176 OA260 : The US and Israel have little support from the European public on the street . Anything that you hear from governments is just pure diplomacy. Maybe
177 EZEIZA : Or a more accurate approach is as long as these people suffer, Hamas will continue to exist ad these idiots will have strong support.
178 Post contains links NewAlitalia : In Italy as reported a few days by the most important newspaper Il Corriere della Sera, it is right the opposite. In this days in fact a poll shows t
179 Jutes85 : Proves my point why the Palestinians will continue to suffer until they change their ways.
180 EZEIZA : How so? It acutally proves that extremism is always on a rise when people are in a desperate situation, but anyway ... I would actually expect a much
181 OA260 : Well it has been noted that the Italian government do things their ''own way '' for want of a better word. Interesting program last night about Italy
182 NewAlitalia : What do you want to say with that? Somalia is not a democratic country..
183 LXA333 : Exactly, thats why a lot of arabs would like to see US support stop to Israel, it's not going to stop anytime soon, because we know they want to harm
184 RussianJet : No, it proves the point that as long as the Palestinians are treated like 50th class human beings by Israel then there will always be room for organi
185 OA260 : Do a bit of research no point using up this thread for a topic that could have its own thread. What examples do you have from ''other'' MiddleEastern
186 EZEIZA : Geez ... 100% support ... no country should have 100% support because when they f*** up, you have to bail them out. And if the US is going to blindly
187 EZEIZA : or the support of Bin Laden ... or the support of Saddam... the thing is that when its in heir convenience, they are freedom fighters, and as soon as
188 Par13del : When exactly was it convenient for the US to support the IRA against Britain, I must have missed that one, unless you consider Catholic Americans the
189 US330 : I'd edit your statement--"the modern-day people of the Jewish faith have no realistic historical claim whatever to the territory of Palestine" (premi
190 OA260 : BINGO. The goal posts move all the time to suit their own warped policies. Yep you must have. Its readily available from alot of ''reliable'' sources
191 LXA333 : Thats merely very easy, there were 4 arab mideast countries that stepped up against Israel during the 6 day war. They have zero tolerance meanwhile I
192 RussianJet : One might do better to ask Europeans what the continent would be like if THE SOVIET UNION (not Russia) had not played such a massive role in defeatin
193 OA260 : We will have to agree to disagree there.
194 Post contains links OA260 : Tens of thousands of Palestinians have been left destitute by Israel's three-week offensive against Hamas militants in the Gaza Strip, the UN estimate
195 Post contains links NewAlitalia : The Italian Foreign Minister Franco Frattini is in Israel today as announced yesterday by Prime Minister Berlusconi after his meeting with Olmert to a
196 NewAlitalia : ehm, sorry, i dunno who has been worse between nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. Communism and Nazism are in my eyes at the same level.
197 Post contains images OA260 : Bit of double standards on behalf of the Italian government? We Support Israel Bombing you with one hand and give you water with the other !! Like I
198 NewAlitalia : OA260, i respect your opinion even if you are wrong. Italy backs Israel because it is in the right of Israel to defend themselves from the terrorist a
199 Post contains links OA260 : And I yours even though you are wrong. Italy is mis guided. ----------------------------------------------- Gaza residents say IDF soldiers looted th
200 RussianJet : That was not the point, in the war itself the Soviet Union played a decisive role in defeating nazi Germany, and that is a fact - and you got the nam
201 Post contains images NewAlitalia : Sure but the result was for many countries (including part of Germany) to pass from one hell (nazi Germany) to another (the Soviet Union).   Should
202 LXA333 : So, you tell me, how is Israel supposed to respond? just keep getting attacked? See I dont get what people mean sometimes, you cannot negotiate with
203 Jutes85 : The Palestinians were already given that chance. They elected hamas in a landslide. This shows the world where their mindset is at. With hamas in gov
204 OA260 : Oh I gotta give it to you , God loves a tryer. Looting = Anti Terrorism??
205 RussianJet : No, they weren't. An election is not the same as not treating people like dirt and giving them a reasonable standard of living.
206 NewAlitalia : Absolutely. And we all see unfortunately the pathetic scenes on TV on how they use their children. What Israel did is a pure anti terrorism operation
207 OA260 : So if bombs were dropping on your family and killing them and someone called them pathetic would you agree??
208 NewAlitalia : OAS260, what about if your northern irish friends continue to shot missiles to your homes? what will you do?
209 Post contains links OA260 : I live on the border !! This is what we did ::: http://www.nio.gov.uk/the-agreement It sets out a plan for devolved government in Northern Ireland on
210 RussianJet : I know - why don't you actually read up on the Irish/British situation........
211 NewAlitalia : Yes, but unfortunately, Palestinians are not Irish..
212 OA260 : Doesn't mean a thing . There has never been an ''Irish'' type of negotiation applied to the Israeli/Palestinian issue. Just because they are not Iris
213 NewAlitalia : That they don't ask the end of Great Britain.. while the Palestinians want the end of Israel.
214 OA260 : They wanted to get rid of all British out of Northern Ireland.
215 Windy95 : Amen brother That is what I have been saying all along. They need to take control of their live's. But other's on this board do not think that they a
216 Post contains links and images OA260 : Blind and burnt: Mahmoud, 14, young victim of banned white phosphorus shelling Israel's three-week offensive in the Gaza Strip may be over but Mahmou
217 RussianJet : And of course, Israel and her supporters would say they didn't. Point? Some on this board seem to think that getting rid of Hamas would just be somet
218 Post contains images NewAlitalia : This explains all:
219 Post contains images OA260 : No this does !! They were not near any Hamas fighters. They were trying to get away . Israel murdered them. Your cartoons are just that ! This is REA
220 RussianJet : That cartoon is a sickening over-simplification. Israel KILLED them, and in doing so showed themselves to be anything but the 'bigger man'.
221 Post contains images OA260 : People dig out the bodies of their families.
222 Windy95 : They have had sixty years to repair their situation. It is time they take responsibility for themselves. Stop making excuses for them Tell that to Ha
223 Post contains links OA260 : Israelis should have taken offer Monday January 19 2009 KEVIN Myers argues that the Israelis have accepted a two state solution and want to live in pe
224 RussianJet : Hamas AND Israel are responsible. Stop making excuses for Israel and start accepting the reality that blame and responsibility lies on both sides. So
225 Baroque : You really do astonish me this time. The Israeli elections, or had you not heard about them? Ding ding. So not not one bit too far and anyway this is
226 Jutes85 : I didn't quote the looting part. I can put up hundreds of pictures of dead Israeli suicide victimes if you want. Not gonna happen. Pre-June 1967 is 1
227 RussianJet : Hundreds of pictures of dead Israeli suicide victims from the Israeli Air Strikes in Gaza? (Remember that? The thread title?) In any case, apart from
228 Windy95 : " target=_blank>http://www.independent.ie/opinion/le....html Is there a point in this?? They could have had the same thing in 48 with the 48 borders.
229 Windy95 : This has left the thread title about 8 threads ago They are and they did. They held off for long enough. Having standards is not a suicide pact. You
230 Jutes85 : They are held to a higher standard. I consider them one of most professional military's in the world. There is no difference what-so ever between war
231 Baroque : So more land is it? What a surprise. Just how much would be enough. Talk about the mad plans of the Caliphate mob and the thousand year Reich. Left s
232 EZEIZA : Explained in detail in the past 8 threads. They have to deal with it from the roots, and Hamas will dissapear alone. And fortunately, the IDF wasn't
233 NAV20 : I certainly think that any solution will have to take the form of a single state rather than two states, Par13del. The place is vastly over-populated
234 Par13del : This may well be true but to the Israelis and Palestinians this is totally irrelevant, both sides right now care more about possession of the land, w
235 NAV20 : Of course it's illegal, Par13del. Occupying land during a war is one thing; holding on to it afterwards, effectively annexing it, is quite another. B
236 US330 : Baroque, you continue to make the state of Israel analogous to Nazi Germany without any supporting evidence. I, for one, would like to see why you th
237 Dtwclipper : Apparently only in this situation. By your logic, Detroit should be returned to Canada...but I bet they won't take us. What about Southern Tirol? Ann
238 Jutes85 : So I guess the Americans should give back the land that was once in the hands of the Natives. You make it sound so simple. But the reality is, as lon
239 Dougloid : Australia for the aborigines. Pack your bags Alan and Tony.
240 EZEIZA : well ... yes And we agree on that, and that's precisely why Israel has to defend itself, and what they have done the past few weeks does not provide
241 Jutes85 : Only weak minded people turn to voilence and terrorism to get what they want. Palestinians won't get anywhere if they turn to voilence, it hasn't got
242 Post contains links HB-IWC : This thread has reached critical length. Please continue the discussion here: http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...ms/non_aviation/read.main/2033400
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