I guess that's the good news (coincidence now that their good old Texas buddy will be changing jobs?). If you read in the article however, there is yet another disturbing report ...
"In Beit Lahiya, in the northern Gaza Strip, Palestinian health official Dr. Moaiya Hassanain said an Israeli tank shell killed a woman and a boy and wounded 25 others when it landed near a U.N. school. Near Gaza City, Palestinian officials said three more civilians were killed by a naval shell.
The Israeli military had no immediate comment on the reports.
United Nations spokesman Chris Gunness condemned the shelling attack, saying the the school was crowded with 1,600 people who had sought shelter from Israel's three-week offensive in Gaza. He said the compound took several direct hits and confirmed that two people died."
Very interesting read. Gives me hope that all is not lost and that the USA foreign policy might just take a turn for the better. If anyone can lead policy down the right road to democracy and morality Obama can.
AEGEAN-OLYMPIC AIR - ΟΛΥΜΠΙΑΚΗ " μέλος στη Star Alliance
NAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9756 posts, RR: 37 Reply 4, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 3199 times:
As usual, our World News is first with the story.
The most heart-breaking video I've seen yet about the Gaza blitz.
Anyon who doesn't find the sight of that Palestinian doctor - working in an Israeli hospital - absolutely heartbreaking, please tell us. And tell us also how you can BEAR watching things like that, just for 'politics'.......
Three daughters killed and, by the look of it, the fourth one blinded........
NAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9756 posts, RR: 37 Reply 5, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 3188 times:
And here's the next 'incident':-
"GAZA (Reuters) - Israeli tank fire killed two boys at a U.N.-run school in the northern Gaza Strip Saturday, not six people as previously reported, a U.N. official said.
"An Israeli army spokesman said he was checking the report.
"Adnan Abu Hasna, a spokesman for the U.N. Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA), said two brothers had been killed and 14 people had been wounded, including the boys' mother, when Israeli tank fire hit a school run by UNRWA in the northern town of Beit Lahiya."
Baroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 60 Reply 8, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 3171 times:
Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 6): Quoting NAV20 (Reply 5):
And here's the next 'incident':-
The UN-run facilities seem to have been suffered many "incidents" lately ... but of course, Israel takes great care in keeping civilians out of this
That relates to the comment from the previous thread talking about whether and why (on earth was the implication) Indonesians might be interested in a war in the ME that drew this reply from HB-IWC: Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 147):
And that's not to speak about that most effective means of mass communication: what Muslims all around the world have been told about this issue in their Mosques; in just a couple of hours, the weekly Friday Prayers will undoubtedly once again highlight the issue front and center.
The 850-strong contingent led by Lt Col Djoko Sudiono consists of joint military personnel from the three services in the TNI, the Defense Ministry and the Foreign Affairs Ministry.
The Indonesian contingent consists of 528 personnel from the Army, 242 personnel from the Navy, 60 personnel from the Air Force, 16 personnel from TNI Headquarters, one from the Defense Ministry and three from the Foreign Affairs Ministry.
Konga XXIII-B replaced Konga XXIII-A that had been assigned in Lebanon to help maintain peace for one year.
So at least 850 families do have a direct interest in the ME and in not having UN forces bombed or hit by friendly fire.
Some will recall that at various times there were pleas to Muslim countries to send forces to stabilize Iraq. It is hardly surprising if the Government of Indonesia is a bit gun shy of such involvement when the blue flag of the UN seems to be all too frequently a target.
NAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9756 posts, RR: 37 Reply 9, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 3164 times:
Quoting Baroque (Reply 8): So at least 850 families do have a direct interest in the ME and in not having UN forces bombed or hit by friendly fire.
Sort of 'nothing short of marvellous' that the Israeli Army has knocked out so many clearly-marked UN facilities - not just in the Gaza Strip, there was also that clearly-marked UN post in Lebanon, that the incompetent buggers had to shell literally for hours before they got a hit and killed six UN soldiers.........
And even now, the UN Security Council has only passed one out of fiity resolutions critical of Israel. And even on that one, the USA abstained.........
And now, Israel has the cheek to ask for a 'UN force' to police the Gaza-Egypt border.......
Thank God that I'm long past military age. Fighting the Russians would have been bad enough. But at least I'd have known that (unlike the Israelis) they'd have been highly unlikely even to get the chance to shoot me in the back.......
[Edited 2009-01-17 05:18:52]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
Aaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 7904 posts, RR: 27 Reply 12, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 3141 times:
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 7): Vaguely possible that 'UN' in the Hebrew alphabet stands for 'UT' - 'Uncle Target' - in the Anglo-American one...........
You know NAV, as critical as I am of Israeli policy, that's just an unnecessarily cheap shot. Bear in mind that there are numerous citizens of Israel, as well as the global Jewish diaspora, of which I'm a member, who categorically disapprove of this endless butchery of innocent people.
There's no need to drag a beautiful ancient language through the mud.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
OA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26054 posts, RR: 58 Reply 13, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 3134 times:
Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 10): That's debatable, but he should get a fair shake at trying at least.
Well at least he cant do any worse. Politics and opinions aside its sad to see the current state that the USA is in. The country is dying and loosing the things that people once hailed as the ''American Dream''. Sad to see. I think that re thinking foreign policy especially in regards to Israel and its funding of Israel should be a top priority. Maybe the economic crisis may be the thing that makes the funding dry up. I cant see American public shelling out $$$ when they are facing economic crisis at home.
AEGEAN-OLYMPIC AIR - ΟΛΥΜΠΙΑΚΗ " μέλος στη Star Alliance
NAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9756 posts, RR: 37 Reply 14, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 3131 times:
Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 12): You know NAV, as critical as I am of Israeli policy, that's just an unnecessarily cheap shot.
Guess you're right, Aaron747 - apologies. But, even in training, I had the odd opportunity to see the damage that weapons could do.
Frankly, the very IDEA of any army using such weapons in the virtual certainty that they are likely to hit civilians (like those poor little girls) utterly sickens me........
And, beyond that, people like Livni and Mark Regev, aka Mark Freiberg (not an Israeli unless he's recently been naturalised, actually an Australian who was a student at Melbourne Uni when I was lecturing there) just glibly saying things like, "There were militants firing from nearby," or some such, also turns me up.
Forgive me for being a bit angry. If the Russians had ever tried to come through the Fulda Gap back in the '60s, it might have been my job to direct fire on targets like bridges and crossroads - which, of course, would have included villages etc.
The whole idea worried me. But, at least, if I'd had to do it, I'd have been sure that it was a whole fully-equipped army coming at me - not a few poor b*****y 'militants' armed with small-arms only.
The Israeli Army's activities - 'all arms' reactions to every threat of any kind - are utterly 'disproportionate.' We would have been court-martialled and given five years or so in a military prison if we'd ever done anything of the kind........
Sorry - but even in armies, there ARE normally 'rules of engagement'..........
The Israeli Army doesn't appear to have any............
[Edited 2009-01-17 06:55:44]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
Us330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3811 posts, RR: 14 Reply 17, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 3093 times:
From the previous thread:
Nav 20 wrote: "Thanks, Us330. I don't know nearly as much as I should do as to the extent to which what we nowadays call 'Zionism' had its origins among Bible Belt 'fundamentalist Christians' as much as among 'fundamentalist Jews.'"
Oddly enough, they are two separate movements--they only started to intersect in the 1940s.
Also, they were not "fundamentalist Christians"--relative to the religious trends in the U.S. in the 18th and 19th centuries, they were very much in the mainstream, and they came out of the Northeast, not the Bible Belt, with its Presbyterian, Episcopalian, and Congregationalist congregations. Just as a point of clarification, when the term Bible Belt and "Fundamentalist Christian" is used in the U.S., it generally characterizes the Southern Baptist and other related movements.
Also, Zionism wasn't a product of "fundamentalist Jews" as we know them today--the Orthodox--it was also in the mainstream, a natural reaction to centuries of persecution in Europe, set off by the Dreyfus Affair. Herzl, who is considered to be the father of modern Zionism, was not ultra-Orthodox, and grew up in the Austro-Hungarian Empire, where Jews, relative to those under Russian rule, were relatively assimilated into the population. I also wouldn't deem Zionism, or the belief in a Jewish homeland in Israel, to be a particularly "radical" belief. I consider myself a Zionist, and I haven't been to temple in years--and there are plenty of others like me.
Nav 20 wrote:
"I often wonder whether those people would 'accept' a UN Resolution giving, for example, ownership of all land in Texas back to Mexico; or that of California back to the Spanish; or, heaven forbid, that of Canada, the Great Lakes, and the Mississippi back to the French .
I think the better hypothetical in this case would probably be giving the land back to the aboriginal peoples of North America.
Thought of saying just that, Us330. But there is ample evidence (from written history, not just the OT), and from archaeology, that the 'Children of Israel' were not the first people to settle there."
No, what I meant by my statement was that if you wanted to do a "reset" and turn all lands over to their original inhabitants, then you wouldn't turn North America over to the French, Spanish, English, etc.
Nav 20 wrote:
"Another question that needs answering is, Is being Jewish:-
A. a religion?
B. a race?
C. a nationality?
As far as I'm concerned, it's merely a religion. Anyone, of any nationality or race, can choose to adopt the Jewish faith. Just as they can become Christians or Muslims or Buddhists or whatever."
Oddly enough, Wikipedia is a great source for the answer to this question, and does a fairly good job of explaining it.
Being Jewish is most definitely not a nationality. It is both a religion and an ethnicity. Anyone can, technically, become a Jew. Judaism, though, relative to other religions is fairly difficult to convert into--there is a very thorough process, almost similar to studying for a bar/bat mitzvah, that one must undertake before you can become a Jew (although, according to some ultra fundamentalist sects, no converts are actually allowed). My own Grandmother, for example, went through an Orthodox conversion that took several years before she married my grandfather.
Because of the historical isolation of Jews that prevented them from assimilating into other non-Jewish societies, an ethnicity, with it's own cultural norms and customs, also developed. One can consider themselves Jewish, like myself, even if they aren't that particularly religious. Furthermore, due to intermarriage, Scientists have documented certain genetic markers and diseases that appear more commonly in Jews than in other groups. Even in Jews, because of isolation, there are several subsets--Sephardic (Jews of the Arab world that are descendents of those who fled from the Spanish Inquisition), and Ashkenazi (European) being the two most prevalent.
I have to ask, are you Jewish, or do you come from a Jewish background?
Cairo wrote: "The "never-heard-a-shot-fired-in-anger" hawks of the Bush administration made the same kind of mistake about war, which was desirable for them because of their great education and books they read. The NYTimes is in many circles seen as the voice of Jews, run by Jews and in the service of, well, .... point being there might be other English sources about Islam more accepted by Muslims as authoritative on Islamic matters. No secular US university explains Islam the way it is understood in Cairo."
Then you'll have to explain your original point, because the only thing that I discussed about Islam in my previous posts was that suicide was forbidden by the Koran. And, if you had gone back and read the article where I quoted from, the quote didn't come from the journalist who wrote the piece, but from a former jihadist that is in a pilot program being run by Saudi officials to see if they can "deprogram" jihadists.
War wasn't desirable by those in the Bush administration because of their great education and books that they read--"intellectual" is not an adjective that I have seen used to describe the Bush Administration--it was desirable because they thought it could further their own means and goals.
I also realize that no secular US university explains Islam the way it is understood in Cairo at religious affiliated universities, but then again, no secular US university explains Judaism the way it is understood by the Chabad-Lubavitch sect, no secular US university explains Christianity the way it is understood by those at Bob Jones, Liberty, Oral Roberts, or Pepperdine Universities. Secular US Universities, however, probably do explain Islam, to some extent, in a similar vein as it is taught by secular universities in the Muslim world, like the American University in Cairo.
As for the NYTimes, I am well aware that plenty in the Arab world see the Media as being controlled by the Jews, the Banks being controlled by the Jews, the U.S. Government being controlled by the Jews, etc. In fact, there is an old line that says if a Jew feels depressed, he should go read an Arab newspaper, because according to them, Jews control and rule everything. Just because, though, they believe it to be so doesn't mean that they are correct.
Quote: GAZA (Reuters) - Israel plans to halt its Gaza offensive without any deal with Hamas, an Israeli official said on Saturday, in an apparent effort to deny the Islamist group any gains from the three-week-old conflict.
"The goal is to announce, subject to cabinet approval, a suspension of military activities because we believe our goals have been attained," said the official, asking not to be named.
"There is no agreement with Hamas," the Israeli official said, adding that Israel would reserve the right to act if Hamas continued firing or launched rockets across the border.
A Hamas official in Beirut said earlier the militants would keep fighting until Israel met their demands, mainly for an end to a crippling economic blockade.
The Israeli army was checking the report. A spokesman said troops do not target civilians but respond when fired on.
Israel should've never given back the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt. hamas would've never existed and the weapons smuggling would not be occuring.
Us330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3811 posts, RR: 14 Reply 23, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 3054 times:
Quoting OA260 (Reply 21): That would proabably be ''excessive force'' even for the Israeli government
Yeah it would be overkill--the nuke(s) that everybody knows that they have, but that Israel neither confirms nor denies that they have, are mainly for deterrent purposes, and would only be used to counter another nuclear attack or potential nuclear threat. As critical as I am of Hamas, they are not a nuclear threat.
Us330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3811 posts, RR: 14 Reply 24, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 3049 times:
Also, I should point out that we forget just how small the area we're dealing with is. Dropping a nuke on Gaza could easily affect the Israelis just as much as the Palestinians (depending on how large the nuke is).
25 Allstarflyer: When it comes to defense, obviously they're not.
26 RussianJet: Well, it's what we're seeing now, and many people on here have been constantly been excusing this as 'defence'.
27 EZEIZA: Hamas is not the military of a sovreign democratic state. Hemas is the terrorist part, and agai, for the 9th thread, Israel's tactics are borderline
28 OA260: Israel set to announce Gaza ceasefire Saturday, 17 January 2009 18:04 Israeli sources say the prime minister Ehud Olmert will announce an unilateral c
29 EZEIZA: someone in these threads predicted that this would happen just before Obama took office ... I really hope with Bush gone that the US will stop blindl
30 RussianJet: Agreed, but unfortunately we all know it won't result in anything.
31 OA260: Innocent civilian's being treated in hospitals for white phosphorus burns which even after treatment still burn the flesh !! -------------------------
32 OA260: Olmert live on TV now and called the bombing by IDF quote '' A fantastic operation '' .
33 RussianJet: You know, it would be one thing if he actually seemed sombre and respectful when (in his view) having take such measures if he really did believe it
34 Us330: And when have sanctions ever accomplished anything? They only end up hurting the people that they intend to help (see Iraq, Cuba, etc.). Well, I hate
35 OA260: So do you think that it makes it right for Israel to use it ?
36 Jutes85: The only way for a future peace in Gaza is to de-arm Hamas and the Palestinian people. Holey War How to close the Gaza tunnels http://www.slate.com/id
37 RussianJet: Or for all sides to take their fair share of responsibility and stop treating each other like dirt, and stop killing each other.
38 OA260: Exactly. Palestinians should be treated equally as Israelis instead of second class citizens.
39 Us330: Well, considering that it is allowed to be used, yes. But that wasn't the point of my post. The point was that you shouldn't scream out righteous ind
40 Oa260: Well do you consider the Israeli government a terrorist group the same as Hamas? I think you know what was meant.
41 Deskflier: Correction! Hamas is the legally elected administration of ALL Palestinian territories. Which is a shame, since parties based on religion is an idea
42 OA260: The Beirut declaration is being brought up again and is thought to be a major topic of discussion at the negotiations in Egypt. --------- Expectations
43 OA260: Israeli TV airs Gaza doctor's pleas after children killed - ENGLISH SUBTITLES http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=OLUJ4f...on_id=annotation_288952&feature=i
44 Us330: No I do not. Mainly because of this one difference: nowhere in the state of Israel's charter does it call for the destruction of any Arab state.
45 OA260: Since we are talking about the use of White phosphorous just because Hamas may or may not have been using the same substance does not make it right.
46 US330: You seem to be implying that every time civilians die due to military action, there is an automatic equivalance to the policies of the Nazis. Before
47 OA260: Sorry its government state terrorism . Before we go any further ! ''Terrorism is the systematic use of terror.[clarification needed] At present, t
48 EZEIZA: That's why I used the word "hope". I always have hope when a change is around the corner. Tme will tell I guess. And Hitler was elected in Germany We
49 OA260: Totally agree . After 9 threads people just dont get the deal. 2+2 = 4 . Hamas became popular amongst some for a reason . Have any of the same people
50 US330: That's fine--I just wanted to know what you meant, because I initially thought you were equating it to genocide.
51 OA260: And what in your mind is genocide ? Where does mass murder turn to genocide? Whats your cut off point? Just curious.
52 US330: Well, mass murder is mass murder. Mass murder, though, is not always genocide. Genocide is the systematic/orchestrated killing and/or extermination (o
53 SOBHI51: Strange you are saying so.But if Israel did not create Hamas in the first place and then lost control we would not have been in this mess.and if Isra
54 SOBHI51: Well cease fire started 12 minutes ago.Hope it will last.May i suggest a cease fire here also.Let's all take a deep breath cool down and relax let's s
55 NAV20: I plead guilty to mking that prediction, EZEIZA, back in Part 7 - "It's pretty clear that Israel took advantage of the interregnum between Bush movin
56 EZEIZA: I was pretty sure it was you but I didn't want to go through the 9 threads again good call by the way
57 Jutes85: And I'm still amazed that the Palestinians think that by electing a terrorist organization bent on destroying Israel, will get them any hope for peac
58 EZEIZA: Fair enough, but let's get out of our comfy chairs for a while and think like someone who sees Israel as an invader and an oppressor. You life is cra
59 NAV20: Thanks for 17, Us330. Fully accept your point that Zionism (including what you could call 'Christian Zionism') originated in the North-East, rather th
60 Dougloid: When you've been to the wailing wall try and lift one of those anonymous and obscure pieces of folklore.
61 Dougloid: That's an enormously complex and dynamic question that would demand more understanding of the German psyche and politics in the inter war years than
62 MadameConcorde: Aljazeera reports Gaza ceasefire apparently broken! Breaking News Sunday. video on Aljazeera Sunday of four rockets fired from the northern Gaza strip
63 Baroque: Apparently hand washing is more satisfactory since the days of Lady Macbeth! You would think they would be embarrassed. Ban K M seems about the only
64 NAV20: I'll make sure to have a look after I've visited Bethlehem, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, and the Al-Aqsa Mosque, Dougloid. The Holy Land, as
65 RussianJet: Ah, but seeing as the pro-Israeli crew have constantly dismissed anything from Aljazeera as completely biased and inaccurate, I guess we can assume t
66 QANTAS077: amazing that they call a ceasefire yet Israeli military continues to remain in Gaza..
67 NAV20: I suspect that they 'have a tiger by the tail.' There are still rockets coming in. If they pull out entirely, they'll be seen to have lost. On the ot
68 OA260: Israel wants the status quo at present. It means that they dont have to really negotiate and give up land and other luxuries.
69 Mortyman: The ceasefire lasted for 7 minutes.... Wich is understandable according to commentators in Norway. Norwegian commentators / experts on Middle East aff
70 NA: So that Hamas can quickly regroup? No way. A ceasefire does not mean retreat at once. It means observing the current situation and the behaviour of t
71 Windy95: What is your defintition of a ceasefire?? Rockets Fired Into Israel After Cease-Fire Approved GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip — Israel declared a unilateral
72 NAV20: A touch of 'real-politik' as I see it. I'm no fan of Hamas. Indeed, I'm no fan of any 'fundamentalists' who mix religion with politics, be they Christ
73 SOBHI51: So now women and children are firing the rockets.
74 Dtwclipper: Gee, I don't know, maybe you should ask the folks who fired the rockets at CIVILIAN targets in Israel? How nice that you overlooked the fact that dur
75 NAV20: First of all, Dtwclipper, it is only Israel that has declared a ceasefire. The Gazans haven't. Secondly - looking at at least 1,200 Gazan dead and 5,
76 Dtwclipper: I will continue to blame the Gazans for allowing Hamas to fire Thousands upon Thousands of missiles into Civilian areas for years and years.
77 Dtwclipper: Oh, and by the way, Hamas has announced a cease fire. Hamas does??
78 NAV20: Let's get back to basics, Dtwclipper. Suppose that the Gazans do in fact go ON firing rockets. 1. What do you think that Israel SHOULD do about it? 2.
79 NAV20: Guys, looks like I was possibly more 'right' than I knew. Can this article possibly be a 'ray of hope'? :- (Excerpts - link to full article below) "T
80 US330: All your points are valid and correct, and to be honest with you, the only answer I can come up as to why Palestine was chosen was because of the Old
81 US330: Haaretz needs to do a better job--for being an influential young blogger, how come I, of Generation Y, fresh out of college, have never heard of this
82 EZEIZA: Let's see the facts here; Israel invades, kills just as many Hamas militants as civilians, including hundreds of children. When they felt like it (or
83 OA260: News conference by world leaders in Sharm El Sheikh. French President calls for immediate declaration of Israel to its intentions to take all Israeli
84 Baroque: And more, because while the civilian casualties (on both sides, although the weight of numbers is a bit lop sided) are to be deplored the real casual
85 OA260: Yes very true. Look at the language that came out of the American public after 9/11. Some very disturbing words indeed.
86 JFK69: I have a question. Why is it that you have some Israelis calling for Israel out of Gaza, but you don't have any residents of Gaza calling for Hamas to
87 EZEIZA: Someone correct me but I recently read that there were several options on the table for the jews to have their territory, including a part of Argenti
88 SOBHI51: And if i remember well parts of Kenya and Ethiopia. Well if you are targeting the people firing the rockets that's war but how come only civilians ar
89 Mortyman: Hamas apparently accept the ceacefire provided that Israel leaves Gaza within a week
90 Dougloid: Tar baby is considered a racial epithet in the United States. I'm sure you did not mean that. Right. They're still making demands. You gotta love tho
91 Jutes85: Did you even read the post? The rocket crew was killed, it's not Israels fault that a woman and a child were lolly-gaging in the area. lol, So hamas
92 Mortyman: Why should'nt they ? In a ceasefire, both parties need to be heard and taken seriously in order for it to be effective. As long as Israel keeps it's
93 Allstarflyer: Who fired rockets into Germany provoking them? When you figure out how to execute a "clean" military operation, I'm sure national governments will be
94 SOBHI51: It never is. And that was the real objective of this war.Few months from now land will be confiscated,Palestinians thrown out of there houses for col
95 Dougloid: Parenthetically, the Iranians have declared a great Hamas victory. You heard it here first. http://www5.irna.ir/En/View/FullStory/?NewsId=309094&idLa
96 Mortyman: Dont' patrionise me, please... Norwegians are well aware of Hamas charter and what they stand for. The Norwegian government has a large network in th
97 OA260: Israel has begun withdrawing troops from the Gaza strip, according to a military source. "I can confirm that a gradual withdrawal of our forces is und
98 US330: I have to agree with Dougloid here. How can you be a moderate when you are a member of a group that advocates the destruction of Israel and killing J
99 RussianJet: No, he said 'more moderate' not 'moderate'. Perhaps another way of putting it would be to say that some parts of the organisation are less fanatical
100 Jutes85: Don't worry Iran, your time will come soon enough. I really feel sorry for the Iranian people having such idiots run their country. The Israeli's wan
101 RussianJet: Hmm, so you'd best give 'em what they want and let the people caught in the middle be damned then?
102 EZEIZA: Anything but idiots. They have half the world grabbed by where it hurts most without even doing anything .. and let's all hope it stays this way, in