Bok269 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 2105 posts, RR: 0 Posted (4 years 4 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1605 times:
President Bush has commuted the sentences of Border Patrol Agents Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean. The two were convicted and sentenced to 10+ years for shooting a Mexican Drug Smuggler whom they thought was armed.
NIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 2, posted (4 years 4 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1590 times:
Not much of a surprise, many have been calling for this since they were sentenced. They did obstruct juctice but the sentence was too harsh. I mean Plaxico basically did the same thing and he shot himself instead of a drug dealer and he may not nearly as much time as these two did.
Slider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6518 posts, RR: 37 Reply 3, posted (4 years 4 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1561 times:
Quoting Bok269 (Thread starter): Kudos to President Bush for finally making the proper decision in this case.
It’s still gutless to not give them the full pardon that they deserve---this is still a welcome relief thankfully. But a pandering last act at acquiescing to the corrupt Mexican government and Jorge Boosh’s last failure as President to protect our borders.
Aaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 7635 posts, RR: 28 Reply 4, posted (4 years 4 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1534 times:
Quoting Slider (Reply 3): It’s still gutless to not give them the full pardon that they deserve---this is still a welcome relief thankfully. But a pandering last act at acquiescing to the corrupt Mexican government and Jorge Boosh’s last failure as President to protect our borders.
Couldn't have said it any better. Too little, too late, with no apology. The President and his corrupt US attorneys from Texas sided with a drug dealer and the Mexican government in the end.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
AGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 17 Reply 6, posted (4 years 4 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1521 times:
[quote=Slider,reply=3]Mexican government and Jorge Boosh's last failure as President to protect our borders.
Slider I dig your frustration ... but as someone who crosses the southern border many times a year .. I can tell you that security has increased enormously since 2001. Frankly its nothing short of a military zone down on the Az Mexico border right now. Check points , observation towers , and lots and lots of border patrol operations. I would not want to have to try to sneak in across that area. So before we bash President Bush , lets get some details together.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
Yellowstone From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3071 posts, RR: 7 Reply 7, posted (4 years 4 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1493 times:
Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 4): Couldn't have said it any better. Too little, too late, with no apology. The President and his corrupt US attorneys from Texas sided with a drug dealer and the Mexican government in the end.
By making it clear that attempting to kill a fleeing, unarmed suspect is a crime? Yeah, the guy they shot at was a criminal, but there are rules and laws that govern how government agents go about apprehending criminals. These men violated those laws, and so they are guilty of a crime, even if they believed their actions were right.
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
Seb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9822 posts, RR: 17 Reply 8, posted (4 years 4 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1468 times:
Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 7): By making it clear that attempting to kill a fleeing, unarmed suspect is a crime?
The way I heard the story was that the agents believed without a doubt the criminal was armed and they believed their lives were in danger if they did nothing. I got most of the news on this story from a Libretarian radio host. I am glad Bush finally did something right.
Yellowstone From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3071 posts, RR: 7 Reply 9, posted (4 years 4 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1439 times:
Quoting Seb146 (Reply 8): The way I heard the story was that the agents believed without a doubt the criminal was armed and they believed their lives were in danger if they did nothing.
They quite literally shot the suspect in the ass as he was running away. Even if he was armed, I fail to see how he was posing an imminent threat to them. And given that the agents tried to cover up the shooting, I think the odds are pretty good they knew they had done something wrong.
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
NIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 10, posted (4 years 4 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1440 times:
Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 4): Couldn't have said it any better. Too little, too late, with no apology. The President and his corrupt US attorneys from Texas sided with a drug dealer and the Mexican government in the end.
Kind of agree but they did try to cover it up and this is a comprimise.
I just watched Beck on Fox news and one of the wives told him their house was just burglarized and their dogs beaten while she was away visiting him. What a kick in the stomach.
Windy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2555 posts, RR: 5 Reply 11, posted (4 years 4 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1424 times:
Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 4): Couldn't have said it any better. Too little, too late, with no apology. The President and his corrupt US attorneys from Texas sided with a drug dealer and the Mexican government in the end.
And what it did to the families of these men. It was a terrible deal done to them by the administration through the US attorney.
LTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 12333 posts, RR: 12 Reply 13, posted (4 years 4 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1380 times:
One problem is that these men still have a felony criminal record. That will mean they will not get certain benefits, be severely limited in their employment choices, never be able to have a legal gun, probably never be able to vote and had the horrible experience of a cop in jail. Only a full pardon could resolve these issues.
Yes, this decision could be seen as political. This keeps the Mexican government and Mexicans in the USA quiet and the political pressure within the USA to let them free is dealt with. They shot a known major drug dealer the public on both sides of the border knows deserved to be dead, but as cops they can't take the law in their own hands as determined in a trial, they made appeals which were rejected and they have served time in jail.
Itsjustme From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2765 posts, RR: 11 Reply 14, posted (4 years 4 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1367 times:
Typical Bush move. Do something half-assed. He didn't have the balls to issue a full pardon so this is his way of trying to right an obvious wrong.
Good riddance Mr. President. Enjoy the rest of your life knowing you will go down in history as being the worst American President to hold office.
RFields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 6150 posts, RR: 25 Reply 15, posted (4 years 4 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1325 times:
Quoting Bok269 (Thread starter): The two were convicted and sentenced to 10+ years for shooting a Mexican Drug Smuggler whom they thought was armed.
No they were not convicted of that.
They were convicted because the evidence shows they were crooked dirty cops who lie under oath and on official reports, who destroy evidence, fake other evidence and try to cover up their actions.
The world, and especially the US, does not need criminals like them wearing a badge.
They are a disgrace and an insult to every honest law enforcement officer in the United States.
Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 13): One problem is that these men still have a felony criminal record. That will mean they will not get certain benefits, be severely limited in their employment choices, never be able to have a legal gun, probably never be able to vote and had the horrible experience of a cop in jail.
JCS17 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 8065 posts, RR: 43 Reply 16, posted (4 years 4 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1319 times:
Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 14): Typical Bush move. Do something half-assed. He didn't have the balls to issue a full pardon so this is his way of trying to right an obvious wrong.
I agree with you on this issue. This should've been done a year and a half ago. Much to my consternation, Bush was in lockstep with the Democrats over immigration. Ramos and Compean should have lost their jobs for planting evidence, but shooting a drug dealer in my book is "a-okay."
Itsjustme From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2765 posts, RR: 11 Reply 17, posted (4 years 4 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1308 times:
Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 15): They are a disgrace and an insult to every honest law enforcement officer in the United States.
As an honest law enforcement officer in the United States to someone who is not, I ask that you not speak for me or my brother officers. These Border Patrol Agents are not a disgrace or an insult. They are political scapegoats, nothing more, nothing less and they deserve a full pardon, not some lame-ass sentence commutation from the worst President our nation will ever see.
Stratosphere From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1614 posts, RR: 4 Reply 18, posted (4 years 4 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1304 times:
Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 15): They were convicted because the evidence shows they were crooked dirty cops who lie under oath and on official reports, who destroy evidence, fake other evidence and try to cover up their actions.
Yeah and so they give a known drug smuggler immunity and he gets caught doin it again all the while throwing the book at these two guys. Look I have issues with cops also but your bleeding heart for this scumbag smuggler needs to be directed elsewhere.
Yellowstone From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3071 posts, RR: 7 Reply 19, posted (4 years 4 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1295 times:
Vikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 8210 posts, RR: 28 Reply 20, posted (4 years 4 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1290 times:
Far as I can tell from the article, they were convicted of shooting the guy.
Maybe they were also convicted of obstruction of justice or whatever - I don't know.
Far as I'm concerned, they probably don't deserve the rap for the shooting.
But hell, if they obstructed justice, then they should be punished for that (perhaps they already have been). And if that's a felony, as I presume it is, then so be it.
In my view, whatever happened to the drug smuggler after this incident is immaterial. If he was smuggling, then he should be in jail too (as he apparently is). He might have deserved getting shot in the ass more than anyone else; but the obstruction of justice has seemingly little to do with that.
"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
WarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 6493 posts, RR: 8 Reply 21, posted (4 years 4 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1290 times:
Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 17):
As an honest law enforcement officer in the United States to someone who is not, I ask that you not speak for me or my brother officers. These Border Patrol Agents are not a disgrace or an insult. They are political scapegoats, nothing more, nothing less and they deserve a full pardon, not some lame-ass sentence commutation from the worst President our nation will ever see.
I agree 100 %
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
NIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 22, posted (4 years 4 months 3 days ago) and read 1269 times:
Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 14): Typical Bush move. Do something half-assed. He didn't have the balls to issue a full pardon so this is his way of trying to right an obvious wrong.
Good riddance Mr. President. Enjoy the rest of your life knowing you will go down in history as being the worst American President to hold office.
He didn't do anything half assed, if he pardons these two it sends a message that you can obstuct justice and do crooked stuff and get away with it. Even though it was a drug dealer they shot they behaved deplorably as law enforcement. BTW the worst president will always be Jimmy Carter.
They were convicted because the evidence shows they were crooked dirty cops who lie under oath and on official reports, who destroy evidence, fake other evidence and try to cover up their actions.
The world, and especially the US, does not need criminals like them wearing a badge.
They are a disgrace and an insult to every honest law enforcement officer in the United States.
Absolutely which is why GWB did what he did. They get out of jail but don't get the free ride and full pardon.
RussianJet From Kazakhstan, joined Jul 2007, 6279 posts, RR: 23 Reply 23, posted (4 years 4 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1228 times:
Quoting JCS17 (Reply 16): but shooting a drug dealer in my book is "a-okay."
So let's just go round 'em all up and shoot 'em right there and then, eh? I prefer a system where due process takes place and the courts decide who has done what and what they deserve as a result. Extra-judicial executions are not a good thing.
✈ Don't like it? That's just your tough chuff. ✈
RFields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 6150 posts, RR: 25 Reply 24, posted (4 years 4 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1193 times:
Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 17): As an honest law enforcement officer in the United States
So not reporting discharge of weapons in the perfornance of their official duties, destroying and covering up evidence, lying to superiors and the public, lying on official reports - those are okay and the behavior of "Honest" law enforcement officers.
I disagree and anyone who thinks those actions are legal and honest does not understand the meaning of the word in my opinion.
When I took my oaths to defend this nation, those words meant something to me - and still do. Just because I no longer wear the uniform of this nation does not release me for those promises I made. I hold others who choose to take similar oaths to that standard also.
That includes owning up to my mistakes and taking the consequences like a man, not whining like a dirty lying rat.
Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 20): Far as I'm concerned, they probably don't deserve the rap for the shooting.
Had they reported the shooting and their reasons for shooting - it would have been a good shoot, or at worst a minor reprimand.
What convinced the US attorney to charge them, and the jury to convict them was their lies. They proved themselves to be dishonest and untrustworthy - in violation of their oaths to uphold the law.
25 Vikkyvik: I get that. So charge them with obstruction of justice, or perjury, or whatever.
26 Slider: I’m sure it has. But now you have a border patrol that is afraid of doing their jobs…we have drug wars and shootouts on OUR side of the border, t
27 RussianJet: They shot a guy and then lied about it. It is not a small deal. In doing so they undermined every officer out there. Drug dealers or not, there are s
28 Yellowstone: Yes it does - it sends the message that it's not okay to shoot people who pose no threat to you, then try to cover up what you did. Which seems like
29 Itsjustme: That's not what I said. I said they are not a disgrace or an insult. So are you or are you not a law enforcement officer? If you are not, then again
30 RussianJet: But you got the one that says you can shoot anyone you suspect of being a drug dealer?
31 Vikkyvik: So if I'm mistaken as a drug smuggler by a policeman, I can expect to get shot? I must have missed that memo. Oh, and as a citizen, I believe that la
32 RussianJet: It's speculation, and even if true excuses nothing.
33 Yellowstone: Our legal system has wisely decided to set up separate institutions for exercising police power and judicial power. It is not the role of the border
34 AGM100: NO .. It was handled like most things the President did ... off the news paper headlines and slow and steady. I agree in some ways with you that as f
35 RFields5421: Maybe, maybe not - you're probably more closely attuned to the current political climate within the US Border Patrol than I am. But when they chose t
36 RFields5421: I think the judgement of no threat is unsubstantiated. There is a very real difference between deciding in a split second in the field if someone is
37 RFields5421: They were also charged with those crimes, and convicted of some of them. The US Attorney did, in my opinion, misuse the law to compound the severity
38 DC10extender: You can't say he didn't pose a threat unless you were there. You have no idea. So what, you want to make leo's so fearful of using their weapons that
39 Vikkyvik: Sorry, but that's a bunch of BS right there. No one (not me, you, Yellowstone, no one) MADE them cover it up. It they were convinced that they had us
40 RussianJet: You weren't there either. We do know, however, that they tried to cover up what they did, and that they were convicted in a court of law. Suggests so
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