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Obama Halts Prosecution Of Gitmo Detainees  
User currently offlineStasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3283 posts, RR: 6
Posted (5 years 8 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3998 times:

A dark and highly controversial chapter in America's "Global War On Terror" is coming to a close, according to an article in today's New York Times:

"In the first hours of his presidency, President Obama directed an immediate halt to the Bush administration’s military commissions system for prosecuting detainees at the detention center at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba.

Notice of the decision came in a legal filing in Guantánamo by military prosecutors just before midnight Tuesday. The decision, which had been expected as part of Mr. Obama’s pledge to close the detention camp, was described as a pause in all war-crimes proceedings there so that the new administration can evaluate how to proceed with prosecutions. Among other cases, the decision will temporarily stop the prosecution of five detainees charged as the coordinators of the Sept. 11 attacks, including the case against the self-described mastermind, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed.

Later this week, the new administration is expected to issue an executive order that is to start what could be a long process of closing the detention camp, where about 245 detainees remain."

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/22/washington/22gitmo.html?_r=1&hp


"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
181 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13116 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (5 years 8 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3874 times:

The immediate affect of this decision is to buy time as to how to deal with what is for all parties a terrible situation. The alleged terrorists will still be detained. Hopefully this will show to the world that we respect the rule of law of our own country as well as the Geneva Convention. I suspect they will face trials with regular Federal Courts which have well established rules as to dealing with prosecution of alleged terrorists. It also may save American lives or their being tortured should they ever become POW's of irregular forces or terror groups as well as help our relations with the Islamic world.

User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 2, posted (5 years 8 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3787 times:

It seems strange that some are still happy with Gitmo in spite of the fairly obvious failure.

Just 5% were captured by the US on a battlefield

86% were sold to the US by Afghans and Pakistanis in return for what to them was a king's ransom.

So start with, the election system was, what shall we say a bit dubious.

Then, the treatment at Gitmo has meant that:

1. "Intelligence" obtained is at best suspect and

2. Confessions obtained are dubious and for the most part inadmissible in most legal systems.
See:
Title: My Guantanamo Diary: the detainees and the stories they told me
Author: Mahvish Rukhsana Khan
Publisher: Scribe, 2008.

Detainee 1194. A doctor - a pediatrician - (wife an economist). A Shiite. Returned to assist UN. Arrested by the US and accused of working with Taliban. No idea why arrested, never charged, beaten, tortured, paraded
naked.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/10/books/review/Rosen-t.html
Once you know the endings to Khan's stories, they read like the gripping narratives of the wrongly accused. There is Ali Shah Mousovi, a pediatrician who says he returned to Afghanistan in 2003, following years
of exile in Iran, to open a medical clinic and rebuild his country. Soon after his return, American soldiers broke down his door, accused him of associating with the Taliban and took him to the Bagram Air Base. There,
he says, he was blindfolded, hooded, gagged and repeatedly kicked in the head by American soldiers, who spat on him, cursed him and paraded him naked.


OR
There is Haji Nusrat Khan, a detainee around 80 years old, who hobbles on a walker after having suffered a stroke. In Afghanistan in 2003, he went to the American authorities to complain about the arrest of his son;
days later, Nusrat himself was arrested, beaten at the Bagram Air Base and sent to Guantánamo --- turned in, he said, by a bounty hunter. Accused, like his son, of harboring a cache of weapons, he claimed that he and his
son were supporters of the American-backed Karzai government, which had paid them to guard arms seized from the Soviets. In an intrepid and suspenseful chapter, Khan travels to Afghanistan to visit the family of
another detainee and to bring back a home video of his family; later, when she returns to Guantánamo and shows Nusrat's son a similar home video of his children, he weeps. Nusrat was released in 2006.


Beyond madness. Beyond obscenity. (P Adams, Radio National) And yet some object to trying to stop the madness.

Download of Mahvish Rukhsana Khan talking to Adams at:
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/latenightlive/


User currently offlineManuCH From Switzerland, joined Jun 2005, 3011 posts, RR: 47
Reply 3, posted (5 years 8 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3784 times:
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I personally welcome the road Obama is following. Apparently some of the detainees will be moved to Swiss prisons, and our government already voted in favor of this idea.

Of course it's not something that can be done quickly. The administration needs to ensure that those prisoners will be prosecuted fully even after being moved somewhere else - I don't think they're entirely clueless on what they're doing, are they?!

I think this is a highly symbolic act which will make the image of the US even better in Europe. Yes, I say "even better", because the bad things people are saying about the US over here are more jokes than anything else, but fixing those "image issues" like Gitmo will for sure contribute in building a stronger, less "I'm the self-imposed chief of the world" image of the country some people have.

As a very pro-US person I'm very glad this is happening. This way, my other favorite country (besides my home country where I live) will be hopefully much less criticized, and the bad guys will be convicted anyway, in a matter well viewed by all those EU "I have to check everything's right" guys.

Go Obama!



Never trust a statistic you didn't fake yourself
User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6818 posts, RR: 34
Reply 4, posted (5 years 8 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3760 times:



Quoting Baroque (Reply 2):
It seems strange that some are still happy with Gitmo in spite of the fairly obvious failure.

This is a can of worms, admittedly.

I am personally torn on this whole thing,

But perhaps you can illuminate the "obvious failure" at greater detail for me. We make 'em talk, it saves lives. I'm a Christian and admittedly battle with the entire concept here--I mean, I'm not Jack Bauer. But we have reasonable evidence to suggest that Gitmo SAVED LIVES.

We haven't been attacked. I don't necessarily think letting terrorists out is a good idea. Wouldn't you at least concede that there is a reason these assholes are there? It's not Disneyland and they're not choirboys.

People don't want to talk about this stuff--let's cut the crap. It's not nice, not pleasant and anyone who "condones Gitmo" is branded as a radical wacko evidently from what I keep reading, but are we too close to the Bush administration that a legit honest discussion of this can happen? It would seem so.

And given that Obama's foreign policy position would, at the onset, seem more akin to Bush (see the Hanson link I posted in teh Obama inauguration thread) early on, closign Gitmo or letting them all go is a big mistake.


User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6818 posts, RR: 34
Reply 5, posted (5 years 8 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3760 times:

Oh, and one more thing...

The loudest voices squawking about how eeeeeeeevil the US is (insert Jorge Bush) are also the quietest when it comes to terror in their own homeland, genocide elsewhere and total legitimate reasons for populist revolt. But yeah, Gitmo is evidently the source of all bad mojo on the planet according to some.


User currently offlineDXing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (5 years 8 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3705 times:



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 1):
The alleged terrorists will still be detained.

The only line with a truth to it because yesterdays action was nothing but a delaying tactic. In the end the detainees will find a home in the U.S. Federal prison system. Rep. Murtha is lobbying to have them brought to his district.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009...ell-guantanamo-prisoners-district/

Murtha only has a minimum security prison in his district. But he says he'd have no reservations about holding detainees there in a maximum security prison.
"Sure, I'd take'em," said Murtha, an outspoken critic of the Iraq war. "They're no more dangerous in my district than in Guantanamo."


I wonder if his constituents share the same view? Notice how he worked in holding them there in a "maximum security prison", something his district doesn't have at the moment?

Back to the detainees, they only change they will notice is that it is no longer warm all year long.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 1):
It also may save American lives or their being tortured should they ever become POW's of irregular forces or terror groups as well as help our relations with the Islamic world.

Yeah, good luck with that.


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 7, posted (5 years 8 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3691 times:

Quoting Slider (Reply 4):
But perhaps you can illuminate the "obvious failure" at greater detail for me. We make 'em talk, it saves lives. I'm a Christian and admittedly battle with the entire concept here--I mean, I'm not Jack Bauer. But we have reasonable evidence to suggest that Gitmo SAVED LIVES.

Oh I very much doubt it. You see when there is such a clear case of obfuscation such as WMD in Iraq and we cannot get near the truth and then you get the statements such as Hicks was:
"among the worst of the worst"
it is rather difficult to take statements about the processes at Gitmo at anywhere near face value. They MIGHT have obtained some useful information and they might not. The FBI estimate was that they would not, or if they did they would have no way of knowing which was useful and which was rubbish.

This information is available only because AP sued the DoD - and won.

It is still only 5% of captures were made by the US military.

86% were bought. And they seem to have been sold mostly for highly venial reasons.

Once again listen to:
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/latenightlive/
Ms Khan
or
read the book review at
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/10/books/review/Rosen-t.html

What sort of information do you get from a pediatrician (#1154) under torture? He worked for the UN. He returned after the Taliban were toppled to help and was accused of working with the Taliban. A bomb maker - really!!!! Beaten paraded naked and so on and never charged but labelled and enemy combatant. Which shows that too is a total sham. One of the allegations seems to have been he fought the Soviets. Ah times have changed!!!! Beyond madness.

How about the information from an 80 year old man from near Kabul being tortured? Paraplegic who had suffered from strokes. Your typical terrorist profile I suppose. Beyond obscenity.

Some of the cases are beyond awful. No number of valid cases could balance these stains on American justice. They just cannot.

Please, PLEASE be aware of what has been happening in your name.

Re REPLY 5:

Can you provide any substantiation for reply 5 at all? Or should we just regard it as an ill considered rant?

Take Indonesia as a country that has considered Bush as evil - most of the surveys could be read to indicate that. And they have had an active terrorist movement. But they have also had the most successful police action against JI. Not as far as I know, has there been any TNI involvement against JI - purely police.

Which populist revolt are you talking about? The only one I have noticed was that which swept Obama and the Dems into the White House and Congress in November - was that what you were on about?

Footnote: Ms Khan is yet another example of the remarkable quality of work that some grad students manage to do in US universities. Also Khan probably was one of the few in Gitmo who understood the Afghans as her parents had fled Afghanistan.

[Edited 2009-01-22 03:22:34]

User currently offlineConnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 8, posted (5 years 8 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3690 times:



Quoting Slider (Reply 4):
But perhaps you can illuminate the "obvious failure" at greater detail for me. We make 'em talk, it saves lives. I'm a Christian and admittedly battle with the entire concept here--I mean, I'm not Jack Bauer. But we have reasonable evidence to suggest that Gitmo SAVED LIVES.

We haven't been attacked. I don't necessarily think letting terrorists out is a good idea. Wouldn't you at least concede that there is a reason these assholes are there? It's not Disneyland and they're not choirboys.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc is always bad logic.

As for why the detainees are there, please reread Baroque's post.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 9, posted (5 years 8 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3678 times:



Quoting Slider (Reply 4):
We haven't been attacked.

How do you mean, 'we'? Australians got attacked in Bali - the British got attacked in London and Glasgow.There've been umpteen deaths among Coalition troops in Afghanistan and Iraq?

Quoting Slider (Reply 4):
I don't necessarily think letting terrorists out is a good idea.

Nor do I. But first of all, let's prove they're terrorists?

As a matter of interest, Slider (and others), how do you feel about O.J.Simpson? It's about 90% certain that he killed his wife. Public opinion reckoned that, overwhelmingly. But there wasn't enough evidence to persuade a jury to convict.

So do you think they should have 'scrubbed round' due process and just executed him anyway?

That's exactly the sort of thing that Gitmo is about. Imprisonment for life on the basis of no evidence at all..............



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineEZEIZA From Argentina, joined Aug 2004, 4967 posts, RR: 25
Reply 10, posted (5 years 8 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3670 times:



Quoting Slider (Reply 4):
But perhaps you can illuminate the "obvious failure" at greater detail for me. We make 'em talk, it saves lives. I'm a Christian and admittedly battle with the entire concept here--I mean, I'm not Jack Bauer. But we have reasonable evidence to suggest that Gitmo SAVED LIVES.

How can we know that?

Quoting Slider (Reply 4):
We haven't been attacked. I don't necessarily think letting terrorists out is a good idea

I see your point, but the whole Gitmo issue has been bothering me .. it goes against everything the US preaches to be. How can basic civil rights be thrown out of the window just like that? is it for the greater good .. possibly, but at the cost of losing your dignity. If there's one thing the 9/11 people managed to achieve was to scare the crap out of everyone, allowing for many people to forget some of the basic ideals on which the US has been proud of having.



Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8153 posts, RR: 26
Reply 11, posted (5 years 8 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3628 times:



Quoting DXing (Reply 9):
Back to the detainees, they only change they will notice is that it is no longer warm all year long.

Except for the other executive order in which all cases will be reviewed. Interesting to see how they will go about this really - as people released thus far have usually had legal representation and threat of prosecution against the government for holding an individual without charge or evidence.

Quoting Slider (Reply 4):
This is a can of worms, admittedly.

I am personally torn on this whole thing

There was a Pakistani national interviewed on the BBC today who is suing the US for 7 years of wrongful detention. He was picked up in Indonesia while visiting relatives for allegedly discussing shoe-bombs, of which no evidence was presented to him, and was suddenly released from Gitmo last year without explanation. Since he was his family's sole breadwinner and a successful small business owner in Islamabad, he was wondering in the interview how much reimbursement he deserves for losing 7 years of his freedom, his business, and his reputation.

Now if it's just the one guy and the rest are out-and-out terrorists, I could live with it, but he's not the only one. What number of wrongfully interned and accused is acceptable? Given the position we're in, people who are being held for known activities, with evidence to support it, shall never be released, trial or no trial.

America is better than that. I'd prefer if terrorists, despots and authoritarianism remained the domain of ruining people's lives for no apparent reason other than use and/or abuse of power.

Review the cases and decide what to do based on what is actually known about each individual.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineRFields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 12, posted (5 years 8 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3625 times:

A lot of people forget that the US military senior officers, judges and lawyers fought against the tribunals.

When Gitmo was setup and the system of prosecuting these men was being devised, the military argued that their trials belonged in the US federal courts, not in US military courts.

Military courts are setup and military legal personnel are trained to administer the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

In case anyone has forgotten, we do have US federal courts in this country which are setup to conduct investigations and trials with classified data, and to protect that data.


User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8153 posts, RR: 26
Reply 13, posted (5 years 8 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3609 times:



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 12):
In case anyone has forgotten, we do have US federal courts in this country which are setup to conduct investigations and trials with classified data, and to protect that data.

Yeah but if federal courts were used, the White House and intelligence agencies wouldn't be able to exercise direct authority over the process, that was the whole point. Look how fast Obama's order went into action - case in point.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 14, posted (5 years 8 months 5 days ago) and read 3585 times:



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 11):
Now if it's just the one guy and the rest are out-and-out terrorists, I could live with it, but he's not the only one. What number of wrongfully interned and accused is acceptable? Given the position we're in, people who are being held for known activities, with evidence to support it, shall never be released, trial or no trial.

The sort of case you report will happen and may be the most common. However, at a different end of the spectrum #1154, the pediatrician, with a wife who is also well qualified, wanted to immigrate to the US. Of course he cannot get a visa because (and this may change under the new regime) he is classified as an "enemy combatant". It is so Alice in Wonderland it is not funny.

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 12):
A lot of people forget that the US military senior officers, judges and lawyers fought against the tribunals.

Well admittedly not in this thread but in previous ones I have been heavy in my praise for them and I would point out that you miss out the FBI but in relation to the detention conditions rather than the tribunal. Although I dare say the FBI would have had something to say about the tribunals if they were in their remit.

Let me again bring attention to the sterling efforts of Major M Mori and the admittedly belated efforts of Mo Davis, his erstwhile opponent, in panning the tribunals.


User currently offlineSeb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11660 posts, RR: 15
Reply 15, posted (5 years 8 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3550 times:



Quoting Slider (Reply 4):
But we have reasonable evidence to suggest that Gitmo SAVED LIVES.

We haven't been attacked. I don't necessarily think letting terrorists out is a good idea. Wouldn't you at least concede that there is a reason these assholes are there? It's not Disneyland and they're not choirboys.

It can also be argued that fewer lives were lost on American soil to al-Qaida terrorists under Clinton than Bush II therefore, making the Clinton way of treating terror suspects far superior to Bush II way.

Look, we all know a vast majority of people being detained were detained because someone else wanted money or had a grudge. How does that keep anyone safe? There probably were/are a few "legitimate" bad guys. I think, what will happen, is these people that never had anything to do with any terror orginization that have been held without charge for the past few years are now so upset with the United States that they will try to extract some type of revenge. If/when that happens, every last Republican cheerleader will blame Obama and, as always, forgive and forget everything done under Bush II.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12569 posts, RR: 46
Reply 16, posted (5 years 8 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3532 times:
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Now he's ordered the closure of Gitmo!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7845585.stm

Quote:
US President Barack Obama has ordered the closure of the Guantanamo Bay prison camp within one year.




Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineJamincan From Canada, joined Aug 2006, 775 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 8 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3521 times:



Quoting Slider (Reply 4):
But perhaps you can illuminate the "obvious failure" at greater detail for me. We make 'em talk, it saves lives. I'm a Christian and admittedly battle with the entire concept here--I mean, I'm not Jack Bauer. But we have reasonable evidence to suggest that Gitmo SAVED LIVES.

Take the case of Omar Khadr, a Canadian. He was arrested at the age of 15 six years ago. In his trial, which only just recently started, an FBI interrogator stated that he had quickly recognized a man in a photo as having attended a terrorist training camp with him. That man was Maher Arar, and the next day, Arar was detained, sent to Syria and tortured.

In actuality, Khadr had been uncertain and only stated so after a significant amount of time, according to the FBI interrogator's own report. Furthermore, at the time Khadr stated he had seen Arar in a terrorist training camp, Arar's whereabouts have been confirmed and he was not in Afghanistan and he was in fact being tailed by the RCMP for half of the time he was allegedly in Afghanistan and was doing business in California for the other half of the time.

So, thanks to some information from Guantanamo Bay that's supposed to save lives, Maher Arar was illegally detained and sent to Syria and tortured.

How is that for a failure in intelligence? Not only is Guantanamo Bay a detention facility where many people are unjustly detained, it also spreads the unjustice forward to other people as well. How many innocent people have been saved by intelligence gathered at Guantanamo Bay and how many innocent people have had their lives destroyed by it? I'm not sure the benefits (if they exist) are worthwhile in this case.


User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (5 years 8 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3519 times:



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 16):
Now he's ordered the closure of Gitmo!

The prison camp. The naval base is not going away any time soon.

Generally speaking, though, it's good riddance to a nasty chapter in our history. I understand the CIA.'s black prisons are going the same way.

When I first heard about this I figured it was an end run around the courts and there doesn't seem to be much doubt about that.

Let's get these people sorted out, placed, and tried if need be. Some of them are bad apples. The worst of them deserve a lifetime in Florence. In the basement. I'd rather be dead.


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 19, posted (5 years 8 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3514 times:



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 15):
Look, we all know a vast majority of people being detained were detained because someone else wanted money or had a grudge. How does that keep anyone safe? There probably were/are a few "legitimate" bad guys. I think, what will happen, is these people that never had anything to do with any terror orginization that have been held without charge for the past few years are now so upset with the United States that they will try to extract some type of revenge. If/when that happens, every last Republican cheerleader will blame Obama and, as always, forgive and forget everything done under Bush II.

Fair summary. The mess will make more not less difficult the picking out of the actual bad guys. Bad guys seem to have been ??less than 20 out of about 1000 that seem to have gone through Gitmo. So well less than 10% and likely about 2%. Who knows how many more were done over in Bagram however.

The questioning seems to have been along the lines of "admit you did this and admit you did that" rather than, "now do tell us what you were doing in Afghanistan".

The only bit of questioning that seems to have moved from that general line was the Al Jazeera journalist who was questioned at length over the source of funding for Al J (as if he would have known) and trying to recruit him to spy on Al J. Back to George C. Scott playing Gen. 'Buck' Turgidson in Dr Strangelove.


User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 16
Reply 20, posted (5 years 8 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3506 times:

The Republicans should immediatly introduce a bill that calls for the following.

1. Release all detainees to the care of the US DOHLS.

2. Order DOHLS to move half of the detainees to be housed and cared for in the in the beautiful town of Montpelier, Vermont .

3. Order half of the detainees to moved immediately to St. Claire county Illinois to be housed and cared for by the citizens thereof.

4. Order that the subject state immediately give full benefactor rights as citizens of the subject state. Including housing , unemployment , education and state legal representation.



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlineJBo From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 2345 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 8 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3463 times:



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 20):
The Republicans should immediatly introduce a bill that calls for the following.

1. Release all detainees to the care of the US DOHLS.

2. Order DOHLS to move half of the detainees to be housed and cared for in the in the beautiful town of Montpelier, Vermont .

3. Order half of the detainees to moved immediately to St. Claire county Illinois to be housed and cared for by the citizens thereof.

4. Order that the subject state immediately give full benefactor rights as citizens of the subject state. Including housing , unemployment , education and state legal representation.

huh? why?



I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7238 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (5 years 8 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3460 times:

What do we expect to happen to these individuals if they are deported from Gitmo back to the countries where they were captured, if the bulk of them are innocent bystanders who someone used to make money, they should have no problem, unless of course, they decide to seek revenge on those who told tales on them.

Maybe the US could make the process easier by giving each detainee a few dollars in compensation and return them home, financially, that would be cheaper than paying millions to their allies to take them. I think we all know that the US will pay a huge financial price if they attempt to place these individuals in third countries.


User currently offlinePSA53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3069 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (5 years 8 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3416 times:

Prior to the Obama decision,Camp Pendleton and surrounding communities were up in arms when it was suggested that all Gitmo terrorist prisoners would be moved to the California base.There were two words to express their disapproval.

NO WAY!!!

Who else wants to take them?

Obama's new slogan:

"Yes We Did!"



Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 16
Reply 24, posted (5 years 8 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3383 times:



Quoting JBo (Reply 21):
huh? why?

Easy ...Home town of Mr. Patrick Leahy ( Senior Democrat and BIG opponent of Bush administration) . He has bashed President Bush for his treatment of the detainees.

And the home town of Dem. Senator Dick " Gulag" Durbin who accused our troops at Gitmo of Stalinist tactics ..

These two blow hard's should be happy to extend the recourse's of their home towns to accept the detainees. Right ?


Oh this is fun ,, real fun clark..... .



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
25 EZEIZA : well, let's admit the way things were done were not precisely in the most legal environment. Not even mentioning torture, many were kept in there for
26 Dougloid : Stick a fork in them. They're finished.
27 AGM100 : Well the aforementioned gentleman used the detainees like bricks against the head of the president. All of this theater they created was intended to
28 Charles79 : Remind me when did the US categorize them as POWs? Had they been POWs then they would have had more rights than they had until now... The Gitmo deten
29 Scbriml : Yes, of course. Although I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised to see a rapid thaw in US-Cuban relations and a return of the base to the Cubans.
30 Arrow : But it should. A bit of an imperialistic anachronism from an earlier era, from the nation that claims to abhor imperialism -- don't you think? Give t
31 Slider : We don’t know and might not know, that’s my point. Let me clarify—I’m playing devil’s advocate here because this is the ultimate Monday mor
32 Seb146 : Is there anything in any articles of fighting war how those captures and accused of fighting for the other side are to be treated? It seems to me tha
33 Baroque : My thoughts exactly and the locals should take on compensation payments as a local taxation impost. Likely 86% had little chance of being POWs before
34 AGM100 : Far more fitting would be that they never had to take them off the battlefield at all... just dig a hole for them . One of the guys held in Gitmo ord
35 WunalaYann : And, most tragic of all in terms of body count, the Spaniards have been attacked. It seems to me like sometimes Madrid is a bit left out. And just as
36 Dougloid : Stranger things have happened. On the other hand, we do have an open ended lease, and under the former arrangement a lot of money got pumped into the
37 Post contains links Baroque : And it seems in a majority of cases, just half a day in a proper court would probably have seen them out a there and no more a problem to Mr Sam. Re
38 Aaron747 : You don't get it. Nobody feels sorry for anyone who deserves to be interned. Ugh, forget it.
39 AGM100 : Sorry Aaron, I don't. I blame President Bush for making this a issue. He should have just taken them to some hole in Manila or Istanbul and been done
40 Arrow : I'm not defending the real bad guys. There may well be a handful of them in Gitmo. The problem is, we have no way of knowing, and it appears that for
41 Baroque : Like Dilawar I suppose? And who knows how many others. You do realise you are suggesting extra-judicial killings for a group of whom about 80% are pr
42 AGM100 : No , just pink underwear ! Baroque that is a good point , and I have read the issue of fellow Muslims turning there countrymen in for bounties. But l
43 Baroque : It certainly makes you wonder. And it took a coon's age to find out. Basically not until AP sued DoD and got some listings. If you listen to Ms Khan'
44 Post contains links Mariner : In no way. I think whoever did that should never see the light of day again. Nor any of his kind. If each one of them is as guilty as we are told, th
45 EZEIZA : And that makes it better? After how long? After being treated in what way? you see, 99.9% of innocent people were treated like crap, with no civil ri
46 WunalaYann : I fail to see how that would be a problem. Just follow due procedure, as your Constitution undoubtedly provides for.
47 RFields5421 : The United States, and many other countries, has a somewhat controversial law, which says that actions which harm our citizens can be prosecuted in U
48 Slider : But that is PRECISELY the crux of the issue---my liberal leanings towards the 5th Amendment notwithstanding, these aren't US citizens and this is not
49 Post contains links NAV20 : A bit further on from the bit of the Convention that you quoted, Slider, it says that the Conventions also apply to:- "6. Inhabitants of a non-occupi
50 Baroque : Quite probably not. And it is equally possible that he really had little to do with it. The obscurity could be a cunning plan by OBL but it could equ
51 NorthstarBoy : No, it wasn't that, the prosecution presented nine months worth of evidence that the (racially gerrymandered) jury seemed to pay absolutely no attent
52 RFields5421 : Then the same principle should apply to death penalty cases in Texas where less than 30 minutes is the average jury deliberation before delivering a
53 Baroque : But in a court where the charges were made known to the accused and evidence had to be produced and examined.
54 NAV20 : Not necessarily so, RFields5421:- Article 118 - Prisoners of war shall be released and repatriated without delay after the cessation of active hostil
55 Slider : That’s the catch, isn’t it? That’s nebulous and conditional. It also says “on the approach of the enemy”—but we didn’t approach them. T
56 Post contains links DXing : Then for the umpteenth time, ante up and demand that your government take in these peaceful people on humanitarian reasons. As has been shown in anot
57 Post contains links Baroque : http://www.imaginaryplanet.net/weblogs/idiotprogrammer/?p=83398569 It's Official: Penalty for Prolonged Torture is Demotion In El Paso/Fort Bliss last
58 Flighty : Amen, excellent post.
59 Flighty : To be fair, we are adjusting our standards with the passage of time. If there is another major NYC attack (say 1,000s killed) then Obama would go all
60 AGM100 : Here is a simple question for all of you ? 1.Do you know any American military personnel who were and have been stationed at Gitmo?. 2. If you do , ha
61 Yellowstone : And given that the threat from terrorists is significantly less than the one Germany and Japan posed in WW2, I think we are still at the point where
62 Mbmbos : Wow, that's convenient! We're not qualified to even discuss this topic. I didn't know that there were rules about that. Did you just make up those ru
63 DXing : So the fact that those directly responsible for Dilwar's death have been prosecuted and punished means nothing to you. How many AQ and Taliban member
64 EZEIZA : oh for crying out loud!!! any criticism is anti US press?? One of the funniest posts I have read on anet in a long time .. Considering it was murder
65 DXing : Not the argument. His argument is that somehow those responsible for Dilwar's death got off scott free which is not the case. A tax cheat who pays hi
66 EZEIZA : Who ignored the terrorists? But you can't just say that unless you went to Gitmo then you are only a believer of anti US press! its ridiculous! it's
67 AGM100 : Look, you guys have a case about the detention of the individuals without some kind of trials or whatever . I am mainly trying to counter the idea th
68 Slider : I get yoru point though...it has taken on an Area 51 sort of bizarre mystique about it and that's hindered legitimate debate.
69 Seb146 : That makes a good and valid point about al-Qaida, Taliban, and Afganistan. However, it does not make a valid point for Iraq. Road side bombs and IEDs
70 Slider : Yup-another good distinction.
71 AGM100 : Well show me one article about the real mission at Gitmo ? How many articles do you read about the Red Cross compound in Guantanamo ... Yes that righ
72 Seb146 : They were allowed back in? Someone should also mention that the Red Cross at Guantanamo also found human rights violations when it was allowed access
73 AGM100 : Probably ran out of Latte or something ... kidding . Do you know they fly special meals in for there ethnic tastes ? A C2 flys out of JAX with specia
74 EZEIZA : Unless everything that is being said turns out to be false, it doesn't matter if there is no positive press. The point is whether this stuff has been
75 Par13del : Not sure they got smart, the US did not declare war on Afghanistan, so if no war how exactly does one become a POW, if they claim to represent no cou
76 Post contains links Mariner : The Colorado Governor supports sending the true terrorists to the Super Max prison in Florence Colorado: http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?story
77 Seb146 : We also know people are/have been held there and other detention centers around the world that have absolutly nothing to do with resistance to United
78 AGM100 : Personally I would rather be at Guantanamo .. So what is the difference if we hold them in a supermax or hold them at Guantanamo? Is it just that Gua
79 Post contains links Mariner : I'm not a legal expert but I would say that has little to do with it. Guantanamo, because of where it is and what it is, places anyone held there bey
80 Arrow : One gets 5 months, a couple of others get 2-3 months, and one gets demoted to private -- for murder. This from a country that has in several states a
81 Par13del : They will have to "disappear" like the prisoners Castro let out during the Marelitto - hope I spelled it correctly - boatlift. No one wants a trial f
82 FlyDeltaJets87 : Yes there are - LOAC, or the Laws of Armed Conflict. But what people on here don't understand - A) Even according to the Geneva Conventions, if your
83 Mariner : I guess you missed this: mariner
84 DXing : I don't know, I do know that he is trying to appear to be fulfilling a campaign promise. Correct but to some one is wrong and the other is not. You g
85 EZEIZA : Well for once, it seems that a politician is actually doing what he promised during the campaign. If he promised that during the campaign, and the pe
86 DXing : Notice I used the word "appear"? When you read into the time table there are a lot of unanswered questions. Questions such as "where are they going t
87 Post contains links Pwm2txlhopper : The terrorists would like nothing more than to kill Australians as much as Americans or any other westerners, as has been demonstrated by past attack
88 NAV20 : Oh gosh.........just read your own Bill of Rights:- "In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by
89 Post contains links Mariner : That isn't really the point. "Guantanamo" isn't a place it is a concept - a legal concept that puts the detainees beyond the reach of law. But the Su
90 FlyDeltaJets87 : Alright! One guy out of the hundreds of politicians calling for Gitmo! Woohoo! I'm still waiting for Ms. Pelosi to offer the use of San Francisco jai
91 Mariner : I don't think you should hold your breath. Why put 'em in San Francisco when the Super Max prison in Florence, Colorado, was built for cases like thi
92 DXing : And that concept will continue for quite sometime no matter where they are housed as points 2 and 3 have yet to be resolved. As I said, they may chan
93 Post contains links Baroque : Ever read it. My god man, leaks from its reports have been all over your newspapers. The Red Cross does not as a matter of principle publicise its ad
94 Post contains links Mariner : The moment the Supreme Court made their decision, the concept - beyond the law - was shot down. The whole "reason for being" of Guantanamo ceased to
95 DocLightning : See, it strikes me that Alcatraz would be perfect.
96 Jamincan : Well, people are presumed innocent until proven guilty. Unfortunately, many of the tactics used to prove guilt at Guantanamo are inadmissible in a re
97 Par13del : I am still waiting to see the post which says that his stay in Gitmo turned him into being what he is today. Too many absolutes were banded about by
98 Baroque : Well yes if you get it so seriously wrong. You WILL be damned if you do and damned if you do not. It was not a few E&O here, it was a badly flawed sy
99 Seb146 : So, all those people not wanting foreign forces on their soil (in Iraq) are allowed to exploed IEDs and, as such, United States forces are allowed to
100 Baroque : That seems a totally logical conclusion. I only know enough to know that is complex. The extreme Salafists do not follow what most Muslims would thin
101 JRDC930 : Im sorry, i dont see how making it easier to get away from prosecution is gonna help. Do you honestly think the U.S. government has nothing better to
102 Seb146 : And one reason why they harbor so much resentment towards Americans is the torture they endured, leaving the lights on 24 hours a day, stress positio
103 Scbriml : Just out of interest, how many Gitmo "guests" have been prosecuted? Out of how many detained?
104 JRDC930 : Not nearly as bad as cutting some ones head off with a saw like they did to daniel peral. they are detained because our justice sytem is so screwed u
105 KC135TopBoom : Lets set this record straight. The maximum number of detainees at Gitmo, at one time, was 708 prisoners, today there are 224. There have been a total
106 DXing : As just as astonishing as the lack of credibility you now have in this argument by refusing to ante up and call for your government to sponsor these
107 Arrow : DX, are you familiar with the word "Chutzpah?" That sentiment -- which you've posted over and over again in multiple threads -- should be added to th
108 Post contains links Mariner : I can only repeat what I have already linked, with another link. http://terrorism.about.com/b/2008/06...-corpus-for-guantamo-detainees.htm "The act e
109 DXing : It only takes someone to ante up and the we're on to the next level. He did not say that 90% were innocent. He said that 10% have turned up on battle
110 Post contains links NAV20 : Not so, I'm afraid. The true figure appears to be no more than 18. "He said the Pentagon now believes that, as of the end of December, 61 former Guan
111 Baroque : Have you honestly looked at the main method of acquiring "suspects"? Does the word bounty ring a bell? And how do you suppose you would go in a syste
112 DXing : Their due process was going to be in the form of military tribunals. The detainees appealed to the Supreme Court saying that was not fair. The Suprem
113 NAV20 : That they didn't get 'a speedy and public trial', as provided for in the Bill of Rights, DXing.
114 Seb146 : What happened to "respect the office" and "respect the president?" I guess that only applies in certain conditions. Not only that, but they were also
115 Blackbird : One terrorist was released and then went right back to work, and another terrorist who's sentence was cut in half was also released. Even though the r
116 Post contains links Dreadnought : Let's examine the main points of Obama's Executive Order on Interogations: 1. Torture is prohibited as defined in section 2340 of title 18, United St
117 Post contains links Mariner : There is the matter of the seventeen Uighars still held at Guantanamo. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...601087&sid=aWfxRTa9SY5A&refer=home They
118 Dreadnought : You conveniently forgot to mention that the judge wants them released IN THE U.S.. No fricken' way.
119 Mariner : I thought "US judge" and "presented to him" were pretty good clues, but each to their own. I don't care where they are released. I doubt they care ei
120 Venus6971 : Last time I looked most terrorists don't follow the Geneva convention so when it looks like your getting overun save a bullit for yourself. Military
121 Blackbird : Venus6971, A 90% conviction rate is only good if the bulk of the people tried are actually guilty. If 20% are guilty and you're getting a 90% convicti
122 Yellowstone : So what are we supposed to do, abandon our democratic principles so that our democracy can be saved? (Please tell me you see the inherent logical fal
123 NAV20 : I wonder if that isn't the main cause of all this frantic 'keep 'em locked up for ever!' stuff. The fear that, once the 'evidence' against these peop
124 DXing : If a detainee decides, as is his right, to appeal over and over again, how and where his trial is to take place, who is delaying a speedy trial? As t
125 NAV20 : "Quod Erat Demonstrandum............"
126 Mariner : I'm not sure how many times you need to be told this, in how many threads - but I'll do it one mo' time. If I had the power to admit those seventeen
127 Post contains links Baroque : Ah the crimes. And crimes not committed in the US. Would these crimes by any chance included surveillance of the US Embassy in Kabul? The Embassy that
128 DXing : Which is why I addressed my comments to New Zealand and not "mariner". We can't shovel it on to others since, on one hand while they are happy to cri
129 Post contains images Mariner : If you quote me, I assume you are addressing me.  "New Zealand" isn't going to hear you.   mariner[Edited 2009-01-25 20:14:36]
130 Baroque : Do take a basic course in logic. A. Some inmates of Gitmo are almost certainly innocent (the number released without charge makes that unarguable - ex
131 IgneousRocks : Not having read any of the previous replies I am inclined to ask... ...and you know this how?
132 Post contains links Baroque : Start with: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...le/2006/04/29/AR2006042900145.html My Guantanamo Diary Face to Face With the War on Terrorism By M
133 Baroque : That is of course a heart attack. Damn the loss of Edit after you post. Sometimes there, but mostly not. What I would really welcome would be a pile
134 Post contains links Baroque : If you want another source of questions and answers try http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4715916 Q&A About Guantanamo Bay and the
135 LTBEWR : I commented earlier in this thread, that the decision to shut down Gitmo detention facilities (along with the use of torture, CIA torture and renditio
136 EZEIZA : Here is a thought for everyone that defends Gitmo: If you were to be at the wrong place at the wrong time, but obviously kowing you are not a terroris
137 Blackbird : LTBEWR, Actually the CIA can still carry out torture
138 Baroque : The last part is true, but tell me, what did you do with Timothy McV? I was under the impression you arrested him and tried him in one of your courts
139 Dreadnought : Crime committed on American soil => American court Legitimate POWs => No trials, held indefinately until conflict is over, then handed over to their
140 Windy95 : American citizen on American soil. Big difference Regrettable for him, maybe. But the right decision, yes
141 NAV20 : Oh lord - how many more times:- No, Dreadnought - all prisoners detained in war become subject to the law of the 'detaining power.' And at the end of
142 Dreadnought : And until Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups are considered no longer a threat to anyone, that is not close to happening yet. Read the Geneva Conven
143 Seb146 : But, what you fail to mention is tortue was allowed under Bush. The rules were fuzzy and grey under Bush. I have to ask: How many other countries hav
144 Post contains links Mariner : That is not so in all cases: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn.../AR2009012600419.html?hpid=topnews Washington Post: "The Pentagon says that about
145 NAV20 : Agree that some of them may not have been prisoners of war. But they were still entitled:- 1. To have their status determined by a 'competent tribuna
146 Post contains images Dreadnought : In three special cases of senior terrorists, they used some harsh interrogation methods, and I'm glad of it. I still don't believe waterboarding is t
147 WunalaYann : The cartoon you post, while very funny, comprehensively fails to answer any one of NAV20's fair and pointed questions.
148 KC135TopBoom : Perhaps, when we formerly close Gitmo, all the remaining detainees are all relocated to Alcatraz? We need to start renovating it now. It can also be p
149 Dreadnought : IMHO, it points out that NAV's questions are irrelevant - or should I say, trumped by a more important concern of how to make sure these guys don't d
150 Confuscius : How about sending the detainees to Wasilla, AK? It's remote and you've got a pitbull ex-mayor and now governor to keep an eye on them. Besides, sendin
151 DXing : So now your country would be suffering? What, too many sheep herders already? That's rich. But it is easy for you to not only meet but surpass that t
152 Post contains links Baroque : Which leads of course back to HOW and WHY they were detained in the first place. As in: And in the longer run (possibly the short run come to think o
153 Post contains links NAV20 : Glad you've finally begun reading the relevant Convention, DXing. But (as I expect that Gonzales did) you haven't read it all, you appear just to hav
154 Post contains links Baroque : DANGEROUS ENEMY COMBATANTS PICKED UP ON THE BATTLEFIELD RELEASED PRISONERS RETURN TO BATTLE We know what the last administration said, but just to ref
155 NAV20 : If the Department of Defense runs the US Air Force the way it runs its intelligence services and PR department, Baroque, we can expect every aeroplan
156 Baroque : I would like to be able to accuse you of exaggeration, but that is not possible after reading the Denbeaux report. And my suspicions about the proble
157 NAV20 : Just hope the poor bugger's surname isn't 'Queda'!
158 Post contains links DXing : And you should know that they were originally classified as enemy combatants, but thanks to outrage from countries now unwilling to take any of these
159 NAV20 : Has it ever occurred to you how ridiculous that phrase - 'enemy combatants' - is, DXing? Suppose a Russian soldier in full uniform had come at me - o
160 DXing : Nope, he would be a soldier of a foreign nation. That's the difference, the 19 hijackers didn't wear a recognizable uniform or abide by any of the la
161 NAV20 : But surely he'd have been both an 'enemy' and a 'combatant,' DXing? Perhaps they should have called them 'unidentified combatants'?
162 DXing : I guess you could call an armed robber an enemy combatant then as well.
163 Post contains links Arrow : That would be "Al Kyder" and his constant companion Terry Wrist, wouldn't it? And don't they get on Qantas flights with relative ease? Shame on you g
164 Dreadnought : Arguing semantics is hardly convincing. You will have a hard time convincing anyone who has spent time in Gitmo (my neighbor just returned) that the
165 Post contains links Tugger : Here is the best idea so far: 'Jihadi rehab' is a possibility for post-Gitmo http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/...1/27/saudi.jihadi.rehab/index.html
166 Blackbird : Tugger, So long as this "Rehabilitation" is confined only to terrorists, I think the idea is a good idea reasonably speaking. The only for-seeable pro
167 Post contains links Mariner : Defense Secretary Gates: http://edition.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/01/27/gates.guantanamo/index.html CNN: "Closing the Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, detention faci
168 Yellowstone : How dare you besmirch the good name of Qantas! I'll have you know that those gentlemen were attempting to fly on Virgin Blue!
169 Baroque : Yellowstone beat me to it. Virgin put up a bit of a blue there. In other news as they say, it is rumoured Chaser will be back this year with somethin
170 Post contains links Aaron747 : An excellent account that also draws a stern rebuke of the unparalleled manner in which Rumsfeld and DHS's manhandling of the DoD got all of this nons
171 Baroque : I guess you read the last para: One of the places now being considered as a new U.S.-based destination for the remaining Gitmo detainees is Camp Pend
172 Seb146 : I am curious about something: The point has been brought up about terrorists on the battle field in Afganistan and Iraq and how they are not wearing u
173 Dreadnought : Excellent question. Obviously I was not there, but as I recall, most of the time the VC were recognizable, using bandanas or something like that, in
174 Post contains links Slider : Good editorial... http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/...barry_honey_can_we_talk_about.html The thing is that I still haven't heard valid discussion o
175 NAV20 : As previously posted, such people do in fact enjoy the protection of the Convention (see Post 49 above for link). There is no requirement for them to
176 Mariner : The Secretary of Defense doesn't think so. See post #167. mariner
177 Aaron747 : Read the last paragraphs of the Washington Post piece I posted. There are already high-ranking people within the military who have been down this roa
178 Baroque : Difficult to dispute that sort of reconstruction. It could well be the modal (as in the usual, not the model) route to Gitmo. Step 3 is especially in
179 Post contains links Baroque : A good summary of the origins "achievements" and current status of prisoners at Gitmo is in: http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/h...85.html?page=fullp
180 Aaron747 : Honestly, I could care less if the process actually drives a few toward radicalism - that only suggests they should remain incarcerated. The central
181 DXing : Yes, especially since the article reads: If you can explain how someone from Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Chechnya, and even Australia can be considered "inh
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