Sponsor Message:
Non Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 11  
User currently offlineModerators From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 514 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 3570 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Episode 11 of this discussion already. The previous installment may be found here:

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...ms/non_aviation/read.main/2033400/

Please continue the discussion here.


Please use moderators@airliners.net to contact us.
249 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEZEIZA From Argentina, joined Aug 2004, 4968 posts, RR: 25
Reply 1, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 3565 times:

Wow ... 11 threads .. is this an all time high for anet?

sorry for the off topic, but it does show how sensitive this issue is

back to topic then ....



Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7719 posts, RR: 21
Reply 2, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 3556 times:



Quoting OA260 (Reply 218):
Well maybe over there but not where I live . I dont hear anything pro Nazi or Anti Jewish. I hear more anti Islam and Middle Eastern than I do anything else. If the slightest anti Jewish thing happens in UK or Ireland its major news. I remember when some thugs put graffiti on a Jewish headstone. It was a major event and widely reported and condemned.

That is very true. Whilst in many places anti-semitism and other forms of racism are very much alive and kicking, it is not fair to overlook massive efforts and improvements made in defeating racism of all forms in many countries around the world.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 3, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 3550 times:



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 1):
Wow ... 11 threads .. is this an all time high for anet?

Zackerly the question I was going to ask with exactly the same thought. Withdrawing ain't the end.

If they pay to get in they will pay to get out of it too comes to mind. We know a bit about how much repairs to Gaza cost, I wonder what three weeks of bombing cost Israel in dollar terms and who was paying.

It will be interesting to find what Abbas tells his US interlocutors. If he has any sense, it will be to find some way to speak to Hamas. Abbas needs the US to talk to Hamas too, otherwise it might bring an early end to Abbas. The other thing that needs to happen is that Abbas needs to be presented with some major gains in terms of land. And not the holes is a Swiss cheese either.


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 4, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 3543 times:

Dtwclipper - from previous thread:-

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 214):
Since the Second World War, anti-Semitism is no longer endemic. In fact, until this Gaza business, my impression was that it was pretty much a thing of the past.

Wow, I can't believe you said that. I don't agree with a lot of your positions on Israel et. al., but you are way off on this one.

This is pretty much off topic and deserving of a different thread, but let me tell you, flat out, you are wrong with a great big W!

Anti-semetism, state sponsored or not, has never gone away, and is just as virulent as always.


Where, Dtwclipper? Certainly not in Australia or the UK, to my certain knowledge? Personally, I don't know if you're Christian or Jewish or Muslim or Hindu or Buddhist or whatever. And I honestly don't care........

As a Catholic, I have actually been discriminated against, to a certain extent. For example, when I lived in Britain, I was well aware that the law prohibited me from ever being King........and in my brush with the Army, it was a bit rough to be put on fatigues on Sunday mornings when all the 'C of E' blokes were having a cushy time on church parade.........

I tended to count myself well off. After all, a few hundred years ago, I'd have been burned at the stake......  

But I never 'felt the need' for any sort of 'national home'...........  

[Edited 2009-01-22 08:06:03]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 3534 times:

I think this is off topic, and needs to be placed in a new thread, however:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 4):
Certainly not in Australia

In 2006, the Executive Council of Australian Jewry (ECAJ) recorded 442 incidents, 47 per cent above the annual average. Serious or violent incidents were 74 per cent above average. Anti-Semitic graffiti was at its highest level since records have been kept.
http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=5939

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 4):
For example, when I lived in Britain, I was well aware that the law prohibited me from ever being King.......

I wasn't aware that the job was open.


User currently offlineEZEIZA From Argentina, joined Aug 2004, 4968 posts, RR: 25
Reply 6, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 3533 times:

I don't want to pull this thread off topic (although related), but IMHO although there is still anti-semitism, racism these days, especially in Europe is more related to immigration .. but as I said, let's not get off topic.


Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 7, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 3524 times:

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 5):
I wasn't aware that the job was open.

Sure it was (and is), Dtwclipper. You just have to be the closest living relative to the last guy (or girl). Unless you're a 'Papist,' they're automatically disqualified. There've been plenty of cases of people (actually, girls, so sex discrimination comes into it) who marry Royals having to switch to the 'C. of E.'

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 5):
I think this is off topic, and needs to be placed in a new thread

Why so? My original post was in response to someone else who was talking about the need for a 'Jewish national home.' Surely that means that the whole business of the setting-up of the State of Israel is religion-based?

If not - what else is the whole idea based on?

[Edited 2009-01-22 08:27:59]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 3516 times:

[

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 7):
Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 5):
I wasn't aware that the job was open.

Sure it was (and is), Dtwclipper. You just have to be the closest living relative to the last guy (or girl). Unless you're a 'Papist,' they're automatically disqualified. There've been plenty of cases of people (actually, girls, so sex discrimination comes into it) who marry Royals having to switch to the 'C. of E.'

You know I was tying to add a bit of humo(u)r, I guess it didn't work.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 7):
Why so? My original post was in response to someone else who was talking about the need for a 'Jewish national home.' Surley that means that the whole basis of the setting up of the State of Israel is religion-based?

If not - what IS the whole idea based on?

It is because you were discussing Gaza and Israel. Opening up the can of worms that anti-semitism will bring up is deserved of another place.

On that topic, I believe that all one must do is scratch the surface and you will find the old jew haters are still alive and kicking. "Jews control the Banks, The Media, Hollywood" etc, etc, is something you hear very often, be it out right or implied.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27337 posts, RR: 60
Reply 9, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 3512 times:



Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 8):
Opening up the can of worms that anti-semitism will bring up is deserved of another place.

Not really. We have seen Jewish Israeli's write Anti Islamic and Anti Palestinian slogans on walls of people who were refugeed.

So what makes it ok to do this in Gaza ?


User currently offlineUs330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3877 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 3512 times:

Ezeiza writes "And not to mention the use of illegal weapons"

Sorry, but I still don't buy the concept of there being illegal conventional (conventional meaning non-nuclear) weapons.

Baroque writes: "As Nav and others have tried to explain, the initial window for a single state has passed, but now the window for a two state solution is also closing back to a single state one due to demographics.

In a relatively short time (in relation to the length of this dispute) there will be three options:

1. Single state solution dominated by Palestinians.

2. As above with the Palestinians in some Romanesque second class citizen status or

3. A major bit of genocide.

Best to make some quick concessions and arrive at the comparative safety of a two state solution I would have thought. But then that was obvious after Oslo and look what happened with the rate of illegal settlements after Oslo!!"

I don't disagree--in my posts I have always been in favor of two-state solution.

Nav20 writes "But do you (or anyone) really want the present situation - constant civil strife, huge racially-based (or 'ethnically- based') injustice, and a bloody 'shooting war' every five years or so - to go on for another 'hundred years or so'?"

Nobody wants that, but I think establishing a single state right now would basically condense all those deaths into what would become a bloodbath of a civil war. There are two many differences (economic, political, social, etc.) and unresolved issues that exist right now for a single state to exist. Besides, what incentive would there be for the Jewih Israelis to agree to it, knowing that they would be outnumbered and risk any sense of security, however fleeting, that they currently have?
From a non-participant's perspective, yes a single state may look good, but for the Jewish Israelis, they would gladly take the scenario that you described instead of the likely alternative (which I described).

Nav20 writes "Since the Second World War, anti-Semitism is no longer endemic. In fact, until this Gaza business, my impression was that it was pretty much a thing of the past."

Sorry, but I have to agree with DTWclipper on this one--you couldn't be more wrong. Anti-Semitism is alive and present all over the world. It may not be as prevalent and obvious in the U.K. or Australia, but there will always be a segment of the population that harbors this sentiment, a segment which always tends to be more vocal whenever Israel is in the news. As increasing numbers of immigrants arrive from Arab countries (where anti-Semitism is most definitely present, and newspapers routinely cite the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as a valid source, spread all sorts of blasphemy like how the Jews use the blood of non-Jewish children in the making of matzah, and repeat centuries old stereotypes of Jews as greedy moneylenders that are the puppetmasters of the world), Western Europe and Australia will likely see an increase in both anti-Semitic rhetoric and incidents.

The U.S. has its own fair share of anti-Semites and anti-Semitic organizations, like the neo-Nazis, the KKK, and the like, as well as more subtle organizations, like those that call for the conversion of all Jews. For whatever reason, the african-american community is also a harbor of a small, but surprisingly large, number of anti-Semites, like Farrakhan and his followers (one would think that the Jewish and the african american communities in the U.S. would be close, considering their minority status, and how many of the groups that are anti-Black are also anti-Jewish as well, but this isn't always the case for whatever reason).

The anti-defamation league's website is a great resource for learning more.

Nav20 writes "So why, exactly, do you (and others) appear to feel that there is any particular or pressing need for any sort of 'Jewish homeland'?"

Because of the long history of persecution that the Jews have had, including the Holocaust. History does repeat itself, and while I would like to be positive and think that "Never Again" will truly mean "Never Again," I can't be sure. Jews need a homeland as a guard against a possible repeat. It may not be the perfect security blanket, but it is the most effective. There needs to be someplace where we can go.

Russianjet writes "I would disagree. Even on a small scale, poor standards of behaviour and ill-discipline such as this only serve to breed yet more hate and disrespect. It certainly has an effect on the conflict, in the longer term even if not immediately"

You still haven't addressed the question of priorities and limited resources though--who would you rather spend your time, money, and energy investigating: graffiti or a civilian death?

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 4):
But I never 'felt the need' for any sort of 'national home'...........

That's also because catholicism is just a religion...judaism tends to be both a religion, and an ethno-cultural grouping.


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 11, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 3506 times:



Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 8):
You know I was tying to add a bit of humo(u)r, I guess it didn't work.

For what it's worth, Dtwclipper, I was trying to do the same thing.  Smile

But please just give a straight answer to a straight question.

What is the underlying reason for people of Jewish descent, from all over the world, way back in the 1930s, determining to take land that had undeniably belonged to the Palestinians for many centuries - by force, with many deaths?

And why is the same process going on, even now, 60 years later? With just as many more deaths?



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7719 posts, RR: 21
Reply 12, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 3484 times:



Quoting Us330 (Reply 10):
You still haven't addressed the question of priorities and limited resources though--who would you rather spend your time, money, and energy investigating: graffiti or a civilian death?

All of it. If you want to go mounting invasions you have to accept responsibility for all the behaviour of your troops. You don't just get to pick and choose which abuses you'll investigate, or at least you shouldn't, anyway.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineAllstarflyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 3478 times:



Quoting Baroque (Reply 3):
I wonder what three weeks of bombing cost Israel in dollar terms and who was paying.

Who's charging Israel, and will they accept the charges?

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 12):
If you want to go mounting invasions you have to accept responsibility for all the behaviour of your troops.

On the whole, they'll probably get more commendations than they will reprimands.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7719 posts, RR: 21
Reply 14, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 3473 times:



Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 13):
On the whole, they'll probably get more commendations than they will reprimands.

No kidding.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 17
Reply 15, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 3468 times:



Quoting Us330 (Reply 10):
1. Single state solution dominated by Palestinians.

Another state dominated by Muslim extremists ... sounds wonderful ... real progress for man kind. ? Just mixing it up a bit ...

Why not just have them live under the Israeli system .. which at its core would give them rights to live however they want. When I lived in Israel , we heard the prayers from the mosques 25 times aday .. they were free to practice there religion . Arabs worked at the hotel up the street and at lived in our neighborhood. What the hell is the problem ? Could it be... never mind.



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27337 posts, RR: 60
Reply 16, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 3465 times:



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 15):
Why not just have them live under the Israeli system .

Why should they live under an Israeli system? Why didnt the Jews live under a British system?


User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7696 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 3457 times:



Quoting Baroque (Reply 3):
It will be interesting to find what Abbas tells his US interlocutors. If he has any sense, it will be to find some way to speak to Hamas. Abbas needs the US to talk to Hamas too, otherwise it might bring an early end to Abbas. The other thing that needs to happen is that Abbas needs to be presented with some major gains in terms of land. And not the holes is a Swiss cheese either.

Think you are forgetting one big group here, the Europeans and the EU, they presently are not speaking to Hamas either.

Certainely you do not want the new US president to be like GWB and go it alone Smile


User currently offlineEZEIZA From Argentina, joined Aug 2004, 4968 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 3454 times:



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 15):
Another state dominated by Muslim extremists ... sounds wonderful ... real progress for man kind. ? Just mixing it up a bit ...

So you are aldo one of those that considers Palestinian to be "animals"  Wink

You know, they are not all "muslim extremists" ... maybe the progress of mankind should start in our own minds, and then we might be able to judge what how "muslim extremists" progressed.



Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
User currently offlineUs330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3877 posts, RR: 13
Reply 19, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 3449 times:



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 11):
And why is the same process going on, even now, 60 years later? With just as many more deaths?

The goal of the Gaza airstrikes was not to take their land--it was to combat a threat to their security.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7719 posts, RR: 21
Reply 20, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 3444 times:



Quoting Us330 (Reply 19):
The goal of the Gaza airstrikes was not to take their land--it was to combat a threat to their security.

That, and to take revenge on the Palestinian people at the same time.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineUs330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3877 posts, RR: 13
Reply 21, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 3441 times:



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 11):
What is the underlying reason for people of Jewish descent, from all over the world, way back in the 1930s, determining to take land that had undeniably belonged to the Palestinians for many centuries - by force, with many deaths?

Combination of religion, British promises, and fleeing places where they were not wanted (Europe, during the 1930s). You forget, many Jews fled, or at least try to flee elsewhere, like the U.S., Canada, and other countries, but their applications for visas were flat out rejected. Left with no place else to turn, they went to Palestine. They had to go somewhere.

Yes, some of them came by force, but plenty of others didn't. The Palestinians were just as guilty in the exchange of violence, even to peaceful settlers.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 12):
You don't just get to pick and choose which abuses you'll investigate, or at least you shouldn't, anyway.

Here's where you and I differ--the "you shouldn't anyway" part. In an ideal world, yes everything would be fully investigated, everybody would get justice, and we'd all be happier for it. Unfortunately, we don't live in an ideal world. What will probably happen is that priority will be given for more serious cases, such as civilian deaths, then, once all civilian deaths are investigated (and who knows how long that could take), they will begin to investigate less serious matters (relative to death) like looting and the like. I would assume that graffiti would be so far down on the list of priorities that it would probably eventually be forgotten, as another incident occurs and forces another reprioritization of resources.


User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 3441 times:



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 20):
That, and to take revenge on the Palestinian people at the same time.

I don't think you really want us to believe that you feel that way do you? This action was not a "revenge" attack on the Palestinian people but rather an attempt to dislodge and weaken the terrorist attacks by Hamas.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 11):
What is the underlying reason for people of Jewish descent, from all over the world, way back in the 1930s,

Well, first of all it started way before the 1930's, but that's another issue.

Us330 has summed it up very well.

Quoting Us330 (Reply 10):
Because of the long history of persecution that the Jews have had, including the Holocaust. History does repeat itself, and while I would like to be positive and think that "Never Again" will truly mean "Never Again," I can't be sure. Jews need a homeland as a guard against a possible repeat. It may not be the perfect security blanket, but it is the most effective. There needs to be someplace where we can go.

I firmly believe that no matter how assimilated Jews are in their host countries, they feel a certain amount of uncertainty about how secure they really are. We saw that once in Germany in the last century, didn't we?


User currently offlineEZEIZA From Argentina, joined Aug 2004, 4968 posts, RR: 25
Reply 23, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 3437 times:



Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 22):
I don't think you really want us to believe that you feel that way do you? This action was not a "revenge" attack on the Palestinian people but rather an attempt to dislodge and weaken the terrorist attacks by Hamas.

If that was the reason, it will stay as an attempt, because Hamas was not weakened. On the contrary, with the extra hatred that's over there now, Hamas will find it way too easy to recruit.
And I honestly believe Israel knew this, that's why I think there's something else behimd this attack. Maybe just a way of showing power, maybe for the elections, maybe to get their image cleaned up (domestically) after 2006 ... but diminishing terrorist fire power was not the reason.



Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7719 posts, RR: 21
Reply 24, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 3434 times:



Quoting Us330 (Reply 21):
yes everything would be fully investigated, everybody would get justice, and we'd all be happier for it

And there is nothing wrong with that ideal - we should strive towards achieving it.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 22):
I don't think you really want us to believe that you feel that way do you? This action was not a "revenge" attack on the Palestinian people but rather an attempt to dislodge and weaken the terrorist attacks by Hamas.

Seeing as this 'attempt' had such disastrous and ongoing consequences for the civilian population, it is hard to avoid the conclusion that revenge, or at least 'teaching them a lesson' ('them' being unfortunately the whole population of Gaza, not just those responsible for attacks) plays a role. The raw figures, even if exaggerated by 100% support such a conclusion. There is a long history of you kill ten of ours and we take out a hundred of yours. What would you call it? Defence? I don't think so. Also, as EZEIZA mentioned, an army as well-resourced and experienced as Israel's knew perfectly well this would not be the end of Hamas. I am not saying it was exclusively revenge, but hell, it certainly wasn't proportionate or defensive.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
25 SOBHI51 : Why Muslim extremists it could well be moderate Palestinians.Same as Israel you can have right extremists as bad as Muslim extremists or moderate cen
26 Jutes85 : How about this then, for every rocket hamas sends into Isreal, Israel responds with a 155mm Artillary Shell onto a random target in Gaza.
27 AGM100 : No , the whole idea of my post is that they would live in a democracy where they would be afforded all the rights of any other citizens. Maybe they c
28 OA260 : So are you now saying that Israel is a terrorist state? Are you putting them into the same category as Hamas?
29 RussianJet : Because Israel wants to behave like terrorists? Or because all Palestinians are terrorists? Only two reasons I can possibly fathom for such a ridicul
30 Dtwclipper : ] He didn't say that, you did. It was an ironic remark in response to RJ's post. Stop trying to entrap folks, just debate the issue.
31 OA260 : Yeah but not surprising. I was heartened by Obamas news conference a while ago saying that ''He was deeply concerned about the huge death toll of civ
32 RussianJet : You think so? He has made post after post after post seeking to justify Israeli actions by comparing them to acts of terrorism and by drawing compari
33 OA260 : See below :: Exactly . Always tries to justify it. Thats the POINT !
34 Dtwclipper : Yes, I do. I wasn't talking about previous posts.
35 RussianJet : Well sorry, but there is a context. If you want to ignore it then obviously you are not likely to figure out what he really means.
36 Dtwclipper : No, you just proved my point. But we're off track again. I think 11 threads (and multiple bans) have made us all a bit weary and aprehensive!
37 Post contains links OA260 : Rabbi burns Israeli passport at London demo http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=fiSP076_nVI&feature=related Wait for it ! They were Hamas fighters in drag .
38 Dtwclipper : I know what he means, and I knew what he wanted to say above, so please don't tell me what I am likely or not likely to know when I know it, because
39 RussianJet : Well, that's nice. However, I'll just add that particular post to the long list of those he has posted blindly justifying every atrocious action and
40 OA260 : I think you Know it LOL.....
41 Dtwclipper : I've seen them before, remember these are the guys that were invited to Iran. A very small group, but visiable group* *note to self. Don't invite the
42 Dtwclipper : Come on RJ, can't you lighten up just a bit?
43 OA260 : He just did !!
44 RussianJet : Mate, I have zero quarrel with you in spite of differences of opinion, but seriously, I cannot believe that this particular poster has sought to just
45 OA260 : I agree . At least 99% of us here with differing views can at least find some common ground. Again no one on here supports Hamas and accusing anyone
46 EDKA : so what? either you dont know which sect this rabbi belongs to, otherwise you wound not have posted this link or you deliberately posting information
47 Post contains links Dtwclipper : They are a part of this group: http://www.nkusa.org/
48 AGM100 : True I guess .. but I don't hear much from the moderate Muslims especially ones who have to live near Jews. Have the moderate Muslims agreed to recog
49 Post contains links OA260 : It does have relevance if you dont like it then Im sorry but its fact . It speaks volumes that alot of Israelis and Jews DO NOT support whats been do
50 Post contains links OA260 : British Jews attacked for pro-Gaza solidarity British Jews have been attacked for expressing support for Palestinians suffering under Israeli military
51 Baroque : Well apart from the obvious that the bombs fell from the sky, someone paid to get them to the airstrip where they were loaded on the plane to drop th
52 Us330 : Yes, you are correct--even in the U.S., that statement holds true, and even if the degree of uncertainty is neglible at its greatest, it still exists
53 OA260 : Theres hardly anything left to bomb. The majority of civillian homes , hospitals and schools have already been hit. Then there are the health implica
54 EDKA : again, read about this sect, really they would burn Israeli passport every day if they could, so this specific link to substantiate your post about J
55 OA260 : And I have posted ALL aspects of Israeli citizen and Jewish opposition to whats being done in Gaza as you can see above. Alot of people think its a c
56 Jutes85 : Believe this if you wish. Blame Israel for all the Palestinian problems, hasn't gotten them their own state in 60 years and won't get them anything i
57 OA260 : I dont blame Israel for ALL the Palestinian problems. Another mis quote by you which is becoming all too familiar. I blame them for the innocent deat
58 Dtwclipper : I'm not sure why they would have felt excluded?
59 Jutes85 : How do you know that "they were nowhere near hamas fighters"?
60 OA260 : Well certain people were posting and justifying civilians as ''colateral damage'' and ''too bad they shouldn't have voted for Hamas''. I'm sure if yo
61 AGM100 : Yes ? I know of the accord . I see in previous post that you claimed Israel violated the accord by continuing to settle. I have heard that the Oslo a
62 Post contains links SOBHI51 : Have you heard of king Abdullah peace plan from back to 2002 it recognize Israel but only now Israel is studying it.Slow students. http://www.saudi-u
63 Baroque : I agree that part was excluded legally in the accords because the Israelis refused to allow its inclusion. However, it is my understanding that a ces
64 SOBHI51 : Did you catch Mitchell speak today how about President Obama?I think you are wrong. Can you prove otherwise? Not really.Dragging your feet building n
65 Post contains links EDKA : Not sure if this video has been posted here yet or not http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WssrKJ3Iqcw clearly from my comment you can see that i was refer
66 OA260 : Certainly is and at least we can regognise wrong when we see it and have no hesitation in condemning it without trying to justify it. Was a very good
67 OA260 : " target=_blank>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WssrK...3Iqcw Yep it was posted around 5 threads back. I remember watching it.
68 Post contains links OA260 : And this is one video that i will never forget :: http://www.france24.com/en/20090116-...-violence-hospital-war-palestinian It will be the one that I
69 AGM100 : Agreed , but the real issue is the holy city of Jerusalem. The problem with Oslo is it put too many big issues off to be decided . I give the accord
70 Baroque : Er could you help me as to what the Israelis gave up?
71 SOBHI51 : The answer is there.HOLY lets keep it this way run by a council of the 3 religions,Similar but not limited to the Vatican city.Keep Tel Aviv as capit
72 Post contains links and images OA260 : Some images also from this conflict ::
73 EZEIZA : Terrible images ... I still can't understand how anyone can claim this was an adequate response by Israel. The dead child there does look a bit suspic
74 Jutes85 : I hope I am wrong and both sides get what they want. I'm not the one making the accusations here. I still can't believe people didn't see this coming
75 EZEIZA : oh come on. These are no tigers .. these are humans getting murdered. Can't you at least acknowledge the kid had nothing to do with it? Against Israe
76 Dougloid : Are you acquainted with William Tecumseh Sherman and the campaigns in the Shenandoah Valley and the March To the Sea? Do you know why it was undertak
77 Jutes85 : What kid? Every child death in Gaza is sad but due to hamas negligence and barbarism. You could see this conflict coming from a mile away. You can ta
78 EZEIZA : You had no problem in NOT making that difference throughout these threads. All the people that died in your view was a legit act by Israel. It didn't
79 Dtwclipper : Well, tell us what you think the real reason was then.
80 Jutes85 : Like I said, not all the people. One of the problems of the Arab middle-east, they turn to violence to get what they want. Apparently, they haven't h
81 EZEIZA : I've said it several times throughout these threads that Israel knows that this campaign was not going to get rid of the problem. Hell, even a 2 year
82 EZEIZA : Right ... only in the middle east and only these nasty Arabs! The US in Iraq was what? Israel's had a few violent episodes in the past. Not to mentio
83 Us330 : So, are you going to blame all the Jews that fled into Palestine prior to 1948 for actions that some undertook but others had no part in? Agreed--wel
84 EZEIZA : IMO that was a part of it. Again, I obviously do not know exactly why, but bessides it being a demonstration of power, I think there are internal rea
85 Us330 : Of course not, but never really has been either. In case you haven't figured it out by now, Israel doesn't really care what the international communi
86 EZEIZA : True, but this time I see it as even members from the Jewish community are not too happy, but most of all, Israel must not forget that despite what t
87 Dtwclipper : A very, but very small group that likes to get in front of the cameras. People may say that they are pissed at the current action, but when push come
88 EZEIZA : And how do you know that? not today, not tomorrow, but who can guarantee that the US will always support Israel? Remember, we are talking about a cou
89 Dtwclipper : And how do you know it won't be? I know you would prefer it to be different, but as long as there is a state of Israel, support for it will remain a
90 Post contains links Dtwclipper : Hamas is now into "punishment shootings" "In this war, we arrested many spies and collaborators, and we will stay continuing to catch these spies and
91 Post contains links NAV20 : They haven't needed to up to now, because they could rely on the USA to veto any critical UN resolutions, and also to provide unlimited quantities of
92 Jutes85 : AKA, a bullet, a gun and a public execution. I didn't say that only the Arabs are violent. But you'd think that after 60 years they'd figure out that
93 Post contains links Jutes85 : "The Jews Face a Double Standard" by Marvin Heir for the Wall Street Journal, January 8 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123137495711862883.html Why do
94 OA260 : It does but they must make the distinction between defence and blanket murder of innocents. ! But then they are not alone in their warped thinking.
95 EZEIZA : I don't know, nor have I ever said I did. But you seem 100% sure that the blind support will remain, and as I said, the US has a history. Saddam was
96 Baroque : Pretty much the same as targeted killings then. I tend to agree with EZEIZA, people who do that should be shot, well shot a bit as I don't approve of
97 Post contains links SOBHI51 : Well some here are blaming all the Muslims,Arabs,Palestenians for what some of the Palestinians (Hamas) is doing. As i said council of 3 religion Chr
98 Dtwclipper : I'm sorry, did you jsut compare Saddam and OBL to Israel? Your rational for this one will be as the Mastercard ad goes...Priceless!
99 Dtwclipper : You took this totally out of context and it makes no sense. But hey, you like to use the catchprase "Civilian Casualties" as often as you can.
100 EZEIZA : Are you really pulling that cheap shot? Read my friend, read the post. I did not compare anything. Nor did I compare OBL to Saddam for that matter. g
101 Dtwclipper : Hey I leaned it from you! You have been cherry picking posts for the last 11 threads. You just did it again..
102 EZEIZA : It's a joke right? please answer my question. Maybe my English is somehow strange to you ...[Edited 2009-01-23 02:33:45]
103 EZEIZA : By saying that killing 3'+ children is wrong? Or was it blowing up UN compounds? Actually, it was the Israeli's throwing cheap shots, not me
104 SOBHI51 : Unless you have another way of calling them as i don't. Not really just trying to show that both Jews and Muslims are sentimental and tend to stick w
105 Post contains links NAV20 : Looks as if the Israelis have done all the 'investigating' of possible war crimes that they're ever going to do:- "The Military Censor is applying str
106 EZEIZA : Lol as I was reading the article I was thinking the same exact thing! I guess they might actually have something to hide after all ....
107 Post contains links NAV20 : You bet, Ezeiza. Doing my evening google session I looked up modern phosphorus shells. The ones we had in my day exploded on contact in the 'normal'
108 SOBHI51 : The first few pictures were taken on the spot no way to hide anything.Is there anything missing?Jutes did you get it? NO ARMED MEN.NO ARMS.NO MISSILE
109 Us330 : What I was referring to was the group that OA260 had linked to, which is a radical sect. As to the "Anti-zionist" reaction, it's not anti-Zionist, as
110 EZEIZA : It makes sense. i feel however that even in their own investigations they are finding or will find more than one "accident" , so they'll wanto to kee
111 OA260 : Its not a war crime because Israel 100% complies with International law
112 Windy95 : For the same reason as the American colonials. Avoided the question. how should Israel have responded. Go to the UN and complain? Avoided the questio
113 Post contains links and images Windy95 : Hamas: Obama doesn't represent change Hamas said Thursday that US President Barack Obama's position toward the Palestinians does not represent change
114 Windy95 : You are correct. No crime in defending your self from terrorist.
115 NAV20 : I'd better say that, just on the evidence of those pictures, that was no 'accident,' EZEIZA. It's quite obvious from the photographs that several she
116 Post contains links Windy95 : Israel disputes Gaza death toll In the absence of official Israeli figures, the 1,000 plus foreign journalists who covered the campaign relied almost
117 Dtwclipper : I so glad that they made you judge, jury and executioner.
118 EZEIZA : But come on NAV, we all know that Israel was merely defending itself!!! look below .... btw Windy, it's been said 100 hundred times that Israel has t
119 NAV20 : Open to any suggestions you can make as to how half-a-dozen shells - some WP, one HE - could suddenly fall on a single compound all at once, from dif
120 EZEIZA : It also says "Cremonesi's report on the Gaza dead was ridiculed by Jaber Wishah, the deputy director of the PCHR, during a telephone interview from G
121 EZEIZA : .... and who gave Israel that power? They seem to be judging and executing on their own...
122 Dtwclipper : You have already presented a case and judged it. Let us all wait in awe for the all mighty NAV to pass sentence as well. I won't present a case, beca
123 Dtwclipper : Stop turning things around. It doesn't become you.
124 NAV20 : Do you really expect the true story ever to come out, Dtwclipper?
125 SOBHI51 : Wow very responsive.When you feel cornered this is the best you can do. I also asked Jutes few questions,did not receive any answers.does anybody kno
126 EZEIZA : Is what I wronte not true? I'm not turning things around, just presented the facts. Israel judges and executes at will with support of the US. It's a
127 SOBHI51 : No Hamas should change from inside first. But using the same tactics? Ok i will accept an honest explanation from you.Remember honest explanation.
128 Dtwclipper : See, this is my issue with you. Someone makes a comment unrelated to what you want them to say, and you try to twist it into something else. Not wort
129 Post contains links Dougloid : What would it look like in your world? If you were in Tel Aviv with your thumb on the button, what would you have done? Specifics, please. What would
130 Post contains links OA260 : One thing would be a good idea . ''The Beirut'' plan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beirut_Summit The Beirut Summit (also known as the Arab Summit Conf
131 EZEIZA : I still don't see where anything was twisted. Of course not. Agreed The military .. well, that's what they are showing. maybe i'm wrong, but the fact
132 Post contains links Dtwclipper : With one major stumbling block. It was non negotiable. If it was a serious attempt at peace it would have been an overture to negations, not an ultim
133 OA260 : But like with everything with life everyone has bitter pills to swallow!! Same as in the Irish peace process.
134 Dtwclipper : Right, so both sides must be willing to "swallow a bitter pill" to get things started, not just Israel, same as the situation with the Belfast Agreem
135 EZEIZA : Unbelievably we have agreed twice. It takes all sides' efforts to have a durable peace agreement.
136 Dtwclipper : I thought I felt the earth tremble.
137 Baroque : " target=_blank>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Pe...ative Nice try, it is mostly the Israelis who regard matters as non-neogotiable if you are kin
138 EZEIZA : I'm guessing though that it should be easier to negotiate with the non extremist side -in theory Israel-, first. It should all work in very small ste
139 Dtwclipper : What is your point? They are saying it is non-negioable and must be accepted verbatim. I have seen the phrase in many sources, and it was presented a
140 OA260 : So what pills will Israel be willing to swallow then??
141 Us330 : You still avoid the question of how Israel would have been able to do that in an urban warfare situation where the threat hides among civilians and u
142 OA260 : I wonder when the movies out '' GAZA''
143 EZEIZA : A Munich style would have been more appropiate, and probably more effective on all terms. Possibly there would have been some criticism, but at least
144 Jutes85 : If your family, friends and anyone else is hiding weapons, bombs and rockets, they have every right to kick in your door and search your house. But h
145 Windy95 : There are two sides to the videos and pictures. We could post a blown up bus and cafes all day long. But what would be the appropriate military respo
146 Windy95 : But if you are a coward and hide behind your family and friends this will happen. And the coward who does that is responsible. And they are breaking
147 EZEIZA : Right, now everyone there was hiding weapons .. come on I think in this specific example, legally, you would be (as owner of the dog) Again, they hav
148 OA260 : The Beirut plan as said before . What about the ones who were not near any such ''cowards'' ?? And there were plenty in that category.
149 Jutes85 : If EVERYONE was hiding weapons, then Gaza would be completely flattened. Mostly, homes of those who supported Hamas were destroyed, or were indirectl
150 Us330 : It still would have taken too much time, all the while rockets and missiles would be raining down on Israel. Let's think about the logistics for sett
151 SOBHI51 : How about going after Hamas leaders and keep away from schools,childrens and not using WP?
152 SOBHI51 : Tell that to the babies killed being 1 baby or 300.Can you look into there parents eyes and say understandably?
153 Par13del : I would love to hear the response on both sides, in this case or the past cases of suicide bombers say those persons killed in Bali, do we believe th
154 Jutes85 : So you would support airstrikes against the top leaders of hamas that are living cushy lives in Iran, Syria and Lebanon? Israel knows exactly where t
155 Dougloid : You're kind of missing the point. How would you do it? How would you facilitate it? How would you deal with Hamas, bearing in mind their fundamental
156 Post contains links Dougloid : And, of course there's this. From: Hamas To: Fatah Subject: Payback time http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/23/world/middleeast/23revenge.html
157 Dtwclipper : " target=_blank>http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/23/wo....html I posted the CNN story last night, and this is how our friends rationalize it: It is of
158 OA260 : I wonder whom he was responding to !
159 Us330 : Could you as an Israeli soldier, look into the eyes of an Israeli family who had lost a loved one, and tell them that you knew that you could stop th
160 Dougloid : As it happens I did not take the book out of the library but I was looking through it this afternoon and there that statement was. He was of course t
161 OA260 : Could you as an Israeli soldier go into the hospitals in Europe where Palestinian children lay burned and scared and appologise for hitting them as i
162 SOBHI51 : Are you trying to tell me that ALL of the children killed there parents were Hamas fighters? Absolutely no can do i will be to ashamed to even be nea
163 Jutes85 : You mean the same children that are used by hamas as spotters? Or how about the same children that are used by hamas as human shields?
164 OA260 : Are you still trying to justify innocent people being killed? You keep on repeating it and seem to take joy in it so why do you keep posting it?
165 Post contains links OA260 : After an 18 month blockade of Gaza and three weeks of heavy shelling the humanitarian crisis in Gaza is now completely overwhelming. Thousands of peop
166 Jutes85 : Uh huh. Keep twisting my words to justify your reasoning. So nothing new. People deserve the government they elect, even if that government doesn't c
167 OA260 : I dont need to with due respect.
168 Post contains links OA260 : As Israel launched the first air strikes, outgoing Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said: "You - the citizens of Gaza - are not our enemies. Hamas, Jihad an
169 OA260 : The victims are distributed as follows: Northern Gaza Strip: 461 Palestinians, including 400 civilians, have been killed. The victims include 125 chil
170 EZEIZA : Aha, so it's a money issue? And btw ... are you an Israeli General? cause you amazingly seem to know in great detail what the targets were. The Israe
171 Us330 : Yes I could. The problem with the Geneva Convention is that it was written under the assumption that warfare would always be symmetric. It is very di
172 OA260 : You are 100% correct and right. And we keep hearing that news items posted criticising Israel must be biased. Even when the pictures speak for themse
173 OA260 : Well maybe ask how many Israeli soldiers are actually sympathetic to these children ? I think the words written on Palestinian homes say it all. Sorr
174 Post contains links OA260 : Doctors Criticise Israel's Human Rights Abuses Against West Bank And Gaza In Correspondence published early Online and in an upcoming edition of The L
175 Us330 : Yes I do, and I am all for it--the only problem is that it does nothing to take out the rockets. No, you'd need to rewrite it to address the more ser
176 SOBHI51 : So you accept after all that there is civilian or innocent bystanders who there parents were not Hamas fighter?Thank you.I respect that. War is a ter
177 EZEIZA : But neither did this. That's the whole point, this attack was useless in terms of defeating the enemy. Even with Israel bombing the crap out of Gaza,
178 NAV20 : Yes, I could, Us330. Because it would be (and remains) impossible to stop the rockets entirely by military means. And that also any attempt to do so
179 Post contains links Jutes85 : Yes. Israel has been doing this for some time now. They regularly target munition factories and shops that build and store weapons for hamas. A large
180 Post contains links Jutes85 : Saudi Arabia to give Hamas one billion dollars http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/129526 According to the Saudi monarch, "One drop of Pa
181 Dougloid : That's the problem. The pictures often do not speak for themselves.
182 Dougloid : Could you as a Hamas suicide bomber apologize to the people you blew up on a bus? No, because you're dead, and second of all you have no conscience.
183 Post contains links Jutes85 : I never recall anyone saying that it was not used. On the topic of this, WP is perfectly legal. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090113/...e_eu/eu_red_cr
184 SOBHI51 : Even though i didn't want to post here anymore but there 2 things i wanted to make very clear 1)All of us (anti-Israel) have strongly condemned the k
185 Dougloid : Maybe you should ask those enterprising tunnelers down in Rafah to stop with the rocket parts and Viagra and live animals and AK47s and ammo and give
186 Post contains links NAV20 : Is that all you've got, Jutes? All it seems to show is:- 1. A helicopter firing rockets. 2. Kids out in the open. That's only sensible; the last plac
187 Jutes85 : "Carpet bombing" did not occur in this conflict. All the strikes served a purpose. If it was real carpet bombing, you'd see the entire strip flattene
188 Post contains links Baroque : The point is that the Beirut document has no such statement in it. Have you read it? I think the answer is probably no. What you have have read is al
189 Jutes85 : Out in the open, lollygaging around in a war zone with bombs, rockets and bullets flying around. No wonder there are so many casualties, people run a
190 Post contains links NAV20 : Oh heck! Here's the text of the relevant Geneva Protocol prohibiting the use of incendiary weapons in civilian areas, or even on military objectives
191 SOBHI51 : " target=_blank>http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Ne...29526 Did you read the article?It is very clear the money is going to the Palestinian authorit
192 OA260 : No it wouldnt work , you would still get the same replies trying to justify hundreds of civillian deaths. Very true. Oh just about every confirmed an
193 EZEIZA : And that's why they are called terrorists And that's why they are called terrorists. We should expect Israel to have a higher standard. And since we
194 OA260 : BINGO. But they dont . This crisis has proved that.
195 SOBHI51 : I read the full text in Arabic.The words call on Israel,Request from Israel,call on the UN,USA,Russia and the EU This is a proposal you can send a co
196 NAV20 : Quite weird, really. I can still remember being required to attend lectures on the Geneva Conventions. We were all tired out, but we were told that i
197 Baroque : Thanks for checking. I presumed that the full translation would have been confirmed by the parties at the talks, but there you have it, that is what
198 Par13del : As it relates to the Arab plan for peace with Israel, how do they and who do they expect to address Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah and other Arab / Palestinia
199 Post contains links and images NAV20 : When I lived in Britain I was addicted to reading the 'Guardian' newspaper - at that time, the 'Manchester Guardian.' The reason being that it had a l
200 Par13del : Actually read the BBC site this morning and saw the refusal, where I am confused is the so called desire to be impartial, thats the reason why they ar
201 OA260 : Yes its caused a huge stir in the UK. Even the government ministers have asked the BBC to reconsider. An appeal for aid for people that have nothing
202 Us330 : Just about all of us on this board have said that. And you would still get the same replies explaining how a terrorist group advocating for the destr
203 Baroque : Gazing into my crystal ball and guessing that "it" is the "Arab peace initiative adopted at the annual Arab summit in Beirut" you will see that it co
204 Jutes85 : ANYWHERE but the streets. If you are wandering around in the open during a war zone, you deserve to get shot, even more so if you are next to obvious
205 Par13del : Not concerned with Israels intent or policy in that post, I am simply looking at the Arab initiative and how workable a solution it is, and as I stat
206 EZEIZA : and there you go again ... so let's put it in your terms. If they're on the streets they deserve to get shot; if they are in buildings, they deserve
207 OA260 : Where did anyone state that Hamas was not a terrorist group ? Hamas are not protecting its citizens and no one ever said that. You have made the accu
208 EZEIZA : It's the contrary actually. What can not be understood is that the state has diminished themselves to the point of using the same method as the terro
209 OA260 : Exactly and that is the point.
210 Post contains links Baroque : Run that past me again, crystal ball failing - must be the fumes from the burning P. Elections - what was elected in Gaza? Then tell us what happened
211 SOBHI51 : Even if Iran is butting her head in this conflict she has no role to play here.Let me Explain The 3 cards Iran is playing with are Syria,Hezbollah an
212 SOBHI51 : Tell me who died and left the IDF gods to decide who dies and who does not? If you standing in a war zone you deserve to die,standing next to an arme
213 Baroque : Nicely done in so few words. Not complex really!!
214 Par13del : Baroque, the reality is that the politicians will and must address it, and for the plan to work and even be presented this has to be included. One of
215 Us330 : I didn't say that you never said that Hamas was not a terrorist group--please do not misread my words--I said that some on this board have implied th
216 Us330 : This statement illustrates my point perfectly.
217 SOBHI51 : The other way around,some of the actions of Israel are equivalent to tactics of Hamas.
218 EZEIZA : I'm not sure what you mean by "morally equivalent". In any case, Israel's tactics are equivalent, meaning to induce terror on the entire population.[
219 Par13del : The UN has already stated that the Sheba Farms region belongs to Syria and must be resolved between Israel and Syria, the ruling also stated that Syr
220 SOBHI51 : Trust me if it is returned to Syria do you think Hezbollah will fight the Syrians for it.The UN is waiting for Syria to declare officially that Shaaba
221 OA260 : No they and I have not , it has been said that what Israel is doing is bringing them down to the level of Hamas. They and I have not said that Hamas
222 Par13del : Hezbollah however initially created is now a fact of life in Lebanon, they are political as well as military, not sure how much influence Irans conti
223 EZEIZA : I was referring to the Israeli military strategy, and so far, from the amount of civilians dead, I stand by my point. We all know -and condemn- that
224 Par13del : Forgot to add, for the most part the following are already recognized as a given by most parties including Israel 1. Return to 1967 borders 2. Return
225 SOBHI51 : I think you meant that Syria and Iran do not control the destiny of Hezbollah. If that is the case.Then yes,all funds to Hezbollah is from Iran.And a
226 Par13del : I forgot to add this to my post 229, the items listed have been know since the Camp David accords were agreed to, how many years ago has that been and
227 Post contains links OA260 : Rivals break with BBC in Gaza row ITV, Channel 4 and Five are to air a charity appeal for Gaza amid a row over the BBC's decision not to run the film.
228 Baroque : Well I and a number of those trying to explain how Hamas came to be elected have railed in many many posts about the corruption of Fatah giving an ap
229 Par13del : Correct, sorry if I created any confusion. The Israelis knew that also, but what choice did they have, the people on both sides are the same, Hezboll
230 Post contains links OA260 : The truth is slowly coming out day by day !! ---------------- Israelis admit missile use may have been illegal AFTER weeks of strenuous denial that it
231 OA260 : So Israel deliberately withheld information that could have saved saved lives . ''Israel's reluctance to admit its use of the munitions had cost lives
232 Baroque : Oh yes both are intransigent. That seems to be the pattern these days. Like fights like. Ever noticed the similarity in the ways that OBL and GWB app
233 SOBHI51 : But Syria is asking for the Golan heights back.My idea was that if you have a peace treaty then wars are no more an option so who cares about high or
234 Us330 : If Syria is willing to both recognize Israel and have a formal peace agreement with them, similar in the manner to which Egypt and Jordan have, then
235 Post contains links Dougloid : You've got a pretty good pipeline. Are we going to see any similar admissions from Hamas that they f**ked up and got a lot of people killed and , bec
236 Jutes85 : +1. Syria already knows that they can't do anything from a military aspect, so why not recognize their right to exist? The Golan Heights should be a
237 Dougloid : Photoshop is a wonderful thing.
238 EZEIZA : Again, Hamas are the terrorists here ....
239 Post contains links OA260 : War in Gaza: Israel accused of killing 30 after shelling safe house The United Nations has accused Israel of evacuating scores of Palestinians into a
240 Dougloid : what options? What freakin' options that don't amount to capitualtion and eviction on the one hand or the destruction and forced conversion of the re
241 Baroque : Oh come on, wakey wakey, the Hamas charter was discussed a couple of threads ago.
242 Post contains links OA260 : Israel likes to believe that its Defense Force is the world's most "moral" army, and it insisted throughout the recent Gaza war that great care was al
243 Jutes85 : More accusations from the UN. I don't recall them going into an all night emergency meeting when hamas was constantly barraging Israel with rockets.
244 Thorben : What a disaster for Olmert and his crew. He didn't defeat Hamas, he made them stronger. I just read an article in the Financial Times Germany. Hamas i
245 Post contains links Dougloid : No 'fense, but that's what a lot of people in the region believe. There's a wealth of support for what I said. http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1..
246 OA260 : No 'fense but those are really unbiased websites ? Its hardly neutral . At least with my sources I try to quote as wider base of different news media
247 OA260 : Sorry whom exactly do you talk about here? Who are apologists and apologists of whom and what ?
248 Par13del : That ship sailed a long time ago, Fatah are fighting to hold onto the West Bank, they are no longer a factor in Gaza, I think those being "dealt" wit
249 Gofly : Chaps, I am now locking this thread due to its length; I new thread will be started shortly. However, with that said, it is absolutely paramount that
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Iran Slams Sarkozy On Israeli Air Strike Issue posted Fri Sep 5 2008 07:20:18 by Sv7887
Any Voting In Your Part Of The USA Today? posted Tue Aug 5 2008 12:12:10 by Falstaff
Deadly Day In Gaza... posted Sat Mar 1 2008 11:38:13 by Beaucaire
U.S. Strikes In Pakistan- Without Notice posted Mon Feb 18 2008 21:37:48 by Jetjack74
Terror Strikes In India At Hyderabad posted Sat Aug 25 2007 19:05:25 by HAWK21M
Red Bull Air Race In London This Weekend posted Fri Jul 27 2007 11:44:45 by Express1
US Air Strike In Pakistan? posted Sat Jan 20 2007 15:34:57 by Connies4ever
U.S. Reporter, Cameraman Said Kidnapped In Gaza posted Mon Aug 14 2006 22:58:33 by AerospaceFan
2 FOX Employees Seized In Gaza posted Mon Aug 14 2006 22:52:50 by Dtwclipper
Two Arab-Israeli Children Killed In Nazareth posted Thu Jul 20 2006 07:37:23 by T7ILS13LatJFK